22:40:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #schedule
22:40:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-schedule-irc
22:40:23 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
22:40:45 <krisk> krisk has joined #schedule
22:40:46 <MichaelC> meeting: Fixing schedule delays
22:40:49 <MichaelC> chair: Jeff_Jaffee
22:40:55 <MichaelC> chair: Jeff_Jaffe
22:41:26 <ArtB> ArtB has joined #schedule
22:41:27 <MichaelC> jj: Goal to figure out why Recs come in behind schedule
22:41:45 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #schedule
22:41:55 <MichaelC> will brainstorm some of the reasons, starters on screen
22:42:24 <MichaelC> then use voting process to sort out the top 5
22:42:56 <krisk> q+
22:43:00 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #schedule
22:43:04 <dbaron> q+ krisk
22:43:17 <MichaelC> s/reasons/ways to fix/
22:43:30 <dbaron> q+ paulc
22:43:32 <mbodell> q+
22:43:34 <ArtB> q+
22:43:45 <chaals> q+ bob
22:43:48 <MichaelC> ack k
22:44:09 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log public
22:44:12 <Roger> Roger has joined #schedule
22:44:19 <Roger> q+
22:44:25 <paulc> paulc has joined #schedule
22:44:33 <dbaron> q+ to respond on testing and phases
22:45:15 <MichaelC> krisk: start testing earlier
22:45:27 <MichaelC> developers look for tests much earlier than we tend to have them ready
22:45:36 <MichaelC> maybe should require availability of test suite to enter CR
22:45:47 <MichaelC> ack p
22:46:25 <myakura> myakura has joined #schedule
22:46:34 <MichaelC> paulc: it's backwards to scope first, then set schedule
22:46:38 <Bob> Bob has joined #schedule
22:46:39 <MichaelC> think we need to be schedule driven
22:46:42 <MichaelC> and set scope to match
22:46:49 <Bob> q?
22:47:12 <MichaelC> consider that any shipping product has a window of opportunity
22:48:01 <MichaelC> seldom see an appropriate prioritization of time in charters, from Team
22:48:09 <MichaelC> ack mb
22:48:22 <MichaelC> mbodell: more tooling around assertions and testings to help groups with process
22:48:27 <dbaron> q+ annevk
22:48:45 <MichaelC> also more realistic in setting dates
22:49:00 <MichaelC> schedules are patently over-optimistic, so not taken seriously
22:49:21 <MichaelC> ack art
22:49:51 <MichaelC> artb: earlier testing sounds good though in practice, starting testing earlier could be a lot of make-work
22:50:03 <MichaelC> has been an issue that charters were fixed to 2-years spans
22:50:24 <MichaelC> don't know if that's still a rule
22:50:35 <MichaelC> have seen some ridiculous charters go out
22:50:48 <MichaelC> AC should review more critically
22:51:16 <MichaelC> ack next
22:51:26 <MichaelC> q+ kelly
22:52:04 <MichaelC> bob: WG had a bunch of specs moving along
22:52:12 <MichaelC> but didn't finish one till finished all
22:52:28 <MichaelC> work was progressing but at its own pace
22:52:50 <MichaelC> started doing implementations before Last Call, getting such feedback during the LC period
22:53:26 <MichaelC> re above, piling a bunch of not tightly inter-related specs in a charter is difficult
22:53:28 <MichaelC> ack next
22:53:32 <chaals> q+ jan
22:53:43 <MichaelC> roger: most agonizing delays have been due to scope creep
22:54:12 <MichaelC> there aren't many adverse consequences to missing schedules, aside from having to admit it
22:54:35 <paulc> q+
22:54:38 <MichaelC> there should be a process that management reduces scope of a WG if it starts missing milestones
22:54:38 <szilles> szilles has joined #schedule
22:54:49 <krisk> q+
22:54:54 <szilles> q+
22:55:01 <Bob> From my point of view most schedule creep is due to issues. ;-)
22:55:20 <chaals> q+ to say work more with chairs.
22:55:54 <chaals> q+ jfa
22:56:09 <jrossi2> jrossi2 has joined #schedule
22:56:11 <chaals> ack db
22:56:11 <Zakim> dbaron, you wanted to respond on testing and phases
22:56:20 <MichaelC> krisk: <missed>
22:56:30 <MichaelC> ack dbaron
22:56:59 <chaals> s/<missed>/In software the experience is clear. If you are missing schedule, to get on it you either reduce scope or accept lower quality./
22:58:21 <MichaelC> dbaron: priorities change over time in response to feedback
22:58:48 <MichaelC> so setting a schedule doesn't fully make sense
22:59:02 <r12a> r12a has joined #schedule
22:59:09 <MichaelC> jj: otoh, setting a schedule that's over-optimistic when you reasonably know it is, also doesn't make sense
22:59:09 <r12a> q+
22:59:58 <MichaelC> dbaron: cycling charter through AC is costly, don't want to do that too often
23:00:11 <MichaelC> jj: why don't we just charter for what we believe to be reasonable time frame?
23:00:35 <MichaelC> dbaron: not sure how to pick another time frame
23:00:46 <chaals> ack ann
23:01:10 <MichaelC> annevk: one value of limited duration of charter is checking in on priorities
23:01:17 <MichaelC> I've given up on schedule
23:01:38 <MichaelC> not valuable use of time to try to get through the various steps
23:01:55 <MichaelC> more valuable to stay on top of what implementers doing, what user needs are
23:02:06 <MichaelC> to advance a feature, you often have to write test suite yourself
23:02:14 <MichaelC> i.e., bottlenecks on a single person
23:02:40 <mbodell> q+
23:03:31 <MichaelC> jj: maybe not one size fits all
23:04:27 <MichaelC> annevk: there's no end point to some of the work, it's incremental
23:04:34 <MichaelC> ack next
23:04:34 <chaals> ack ke
23:04:38 <dbaron> the beginning of what I said about 8 minutes ago was that there's a difference between building the first version of a piece of technology and building additions to it to meet the evolving requirements of its users (where priorities may shift based on feedback)
23:06:07 <MichaelC> kelly: sometimes groups don't realize the fullness of the scope they're taking on
23:06:51 <MichaelC> jj: historically, if a spec took 5 years, probably meant WG was extended (w/ AC approval) at least twice
23:07:02 <ArtB> q+
23:07:05 <MichaelC> get given a whole bunch of reasons for while the milestones missed
23:07:28 <dbaron> q+ annevk
23:07:37 <chaals> ack jan
23:08:08 <MichaelC> jan: question of WG members are interested in schedule
23:08:18 <MichaelC> should get implementer commitment earlier
23:08:35 <MichaelC> there should be implementers to make a WG
23:08:55 <MichaelC> so need to take this down to ownership of the schedule
23:08:57 <MichaelC> ack next
23:08:57 <dbaron> ack paulc
23:09:35 <MichaelC> paulc: some features could be in a version 2, or a longer-timeframe version 1
23:09:48 <MichaelC> different orgs will have different hopes for which way a given feature goes
23:09:55 <MichaelC> I am a big fan of modularization
23:09:59 <ArtB> +1 on getting implementer committment earlier -> perhaps no deliverable is included in a charter unless there are >2 implementation committments
23:10:13 <MichaelC> that could help reduce version 2 pressure, because you'd see the version one actually getting done
23:10:56 <MichaelC> set up self-reinforcing "getting it done" loop
23:10:58 <MichaelC> ack next
23:11:09 <dom> dom has joined #schedule
23:11:18 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
23:11:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-schedule-minutes.html dom
23:11:34 <MichaelC> separate editors from test development erases a key bottleneck
23:11:38 <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
23:11:41 <dbaron> I think if the specs are small enough it's not a bottleneck.
23:11:41 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
23:11:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-schedule-minutes.html dom
23:11:42 <MichaelC> ack next
23:12:08 <MichaelC> szilles: I'm a big fan of modularization
23:12:47 <MichaelC> one thing you don't know at the start is which features will get traction when
23:13:34 <MichaelC> CSS WG finds things shake out, some gets well spec'd and implemented and some doesn't
23:13:53 <MichaelC> with modules you can advance the modules that are active
23:14:03 <MichaelC> this implies a continuous group model
23:14:18 <MichaelC> so should look at a progress measure of WG behavior
23:14:34 <MichaelC> ack next
23:14:35 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say work more with chairs.
23:14:46 <MichaelC> zakim, close queue
23:14:46 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC, the speaker queue is closed
23:15:18 <MichaelC> chaals: W3C should work with chairs more
23:15:41 <MichaelC> also think certain groups need to be continuous groups, e.g., HTML, CSS
23:15:53 <MichaelC> some things always need ongoing development
23:16:54 <MichaelC> with modules, should a be a reasonable process to add a deliverable to such a group
23:17:15 <MichaelC> get the lawyer review, etc. but without costing the group a lot of time
23:17:42 <chaals> ack jfa
23:18:27 <MichaelC> jfa: 80 % of effort in 20 % of features, always a shock
23:18:42 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
23:18:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-schedule-minutes.html ArtB
23:18:59 <MichaelC> companies need to do resourcing
23:19:06 <MichaelC> but W3C doesn't control that
23:19:16 <MichaelC> also can be difficult to build consensus
23:19:40 <MichaelC> may have to live with longer schedule, between feature, quality, and time, sacrifice time
23:19:58 <ArtB> Present: Jeff, Roger, SteveZ, MichaelCooper, Anne, Shawn, Kris, ArtB, JFA, PaulC, Chaals, R12A, DavidB, MichaelBodell
23:20:03 <MichaelC> but have a "dashboard" to monitor status, progress, revised projections
23:20:08 <MichaelC> responsibility of chair
23:20:37 <MichaelC> sometimes you have to make the hard decisions, but start with the dashboard to see the trends
23:20:49 <MichaelC> then question of who makes the decision
23:20:55 <MichaelC> jj: AC ultimately
23:21:22 <MichaelC> ack next
23:21:48 <MichaelC> r12a: W3C has already had issue that incrementalism is not seen as right way to do things
23:22:01 <MichaelC> W3C has to be seen to have continuous activity
23:22:16 <MichaelC> but I suggest that needs to be continuous *production*
23:22:36 <MichaelC> and break fear that things don't have to be crammed in one release, because reasonably expect next release
23:22:52 <MichaelC> don't think modularization is solution, the solution is project management
23:23:13 <MichaelC> instead, have faster-developed smaller charters
23:23:40 <MichaelC> we are not trained as product managers
23:23:57 <MichaelC> ack next
23:24:19 <MichaelC> mbodell: create a test editor role for a spec
23:24:27 <MichaelC> and be sure to fill that role
23:24:42 <MichaelC> early in spec development, request tests accompany change requests
23:24:44 <MichaelC> ack next
23:25:02 <chaals> [chaals notes that webapps decided to have a named test manager, starting this week]
23:25:14 <MichaelC> ArtB: don't add deliverables to charters unless at least two orgs committed to implement
23:25:20 <chaals> [and thinks watching the experiment for a few months might be worthwhile]
23:25:26 <MichaelC> and at least two individuals to work on test suites
23:25:32 <MichaelC> annevk: not in favor of modules
23:25:39 <MichaelC> cross reference, inter-dependency problems
23:25:45 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
23:25:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-schedule-minutes.html ArtB
23:25:59 <MichaelC> with multi levels, have synchronization problems
23:26:07 <MichaelC> leads to not good use of editor time
23:26:33 <MichaelC> editor time is a precious resource to use well or find funds to pay more
23:26:45 <MichaelC> jj: vote for top 5
23:28:20 <ArtB> ArtB's top 4: 4, 11, 17 and 21
23:30:27 <myakura> myakura has left #schedule
23:30:43 <szilles> szilles has joined #schedule
23:32:06 <MichaelC> Start testing earlier: 4
23:32:25 <MichaelC> Become Time-based urgency/scheduling: 5
23:32:32 <MichaelC> s/earlier: 4/earlier: 5/
23:32:43 <MichaelC> Tooling for testing assertion: 3
23:34:44 <MichaelC> Realistic in setting dates: 3
23:34:52 <MichaelC> More modular / modularize: 4
23:35:01 <MichaelC> Implementations due by LC: 3
23:35:14 <MichaelC> Proactively chop scope if you miss schedule: 1
23:35:22 <MichaelC> Put discipline behind scope of work: 2
23:35:28 <MichaelC> Implementer commitment early: 7
23:35:38 <MichaelC> Prevent v2 from infecting v1: 3
23:35:42 <MichaelC> Some groups are living groups: 8
23:35:50 <MichaelC> Make it easy to add module to charter: 5
23:36:22 <MichaelC> Live with schedule but create a dashboard and have conversation with chair: 3
23:36:23 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
23:36:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-schedule-minutes.html ArtB
23:36:26 <MichaelC> More releases of standards: 7
23:36:30 <MichaelC> Project management training: 5
23:36:35 <MichaelC> Create test editor role: 9
23:36:49 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
23:36:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-schedule-minutes.html ArtB
23:37:22 <MichaelC> Accompany change requests with test cases: 2
23:37:29 <MichaelC> Use editor time wisely: 2
23:37:55 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
23:37:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-schedule-minutes.html MichaelC
23:44:45 <dom> dom has left #schedule
23:50:38 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #schedule
23:51:47 <abarsto> abarsto has joined #schedule
23:52:07 <ArtB> ArtB has left #schedule