IRC log of righttolink on 2011-11-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:37:37 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
20:37:52 [npdoty]
rrsagent, make logs public
20:39:01 [npdoty]
scribenick: npdoty
20:40:43 [npdoty]
torgo: might be useful for W3C to make a statement about how linking works
20:40:53 [npdoty]
… definitions and understanding for legal and regulatory uses
20:41:49 [npdoty]
… a lot of legal thinking is based on the metaphor of a page of content viewed by the user, born out of print media
20:42:27 [stakagi]
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20:42:31 [npdoty]
… but it doesn't really work that way, who are the actors, what is their role in a page
20:43:25 [npdoty]
… linking, terms and conditions statements about deep-linking, republishing material from a website, sublicensing
20:43:49 [npdoty]
… gag orders (like the Twitter examples about celebrities in the UK)
20:44:36 [RalphS]
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20:45:14 [npdoty]
… copyrighting aspects of framing
20:46:34 [npdoty]
HenryThompson: takedowns from the Department of Commerce on certain websites, but you can still see the pages on the Wayback Machine
20:47:23 [npdoty]
Wayback Machine has some exemption from copyright concerns?
20:47:50 [npdoty]
torgo: intention of this document is not to give carte blanche to anyone who wants to post anything on the Web
20:48:36 [npdoty]
… we're not saying (not our role) that you're allowed to link, but that linking is a speech act
20:49:04 [npdoty]
… rights to freedom of expression will vary by jurisdiction
20:50:08 [npdoty]
@@: linking in/out of context, embedding a frame
20:51:54 [npdoty]
torgo: document contains definitions of basic terms (a page, linking, embedding, hosting, etc.)
20:52:33 [npdoty]
… describing to a non-technical audience what it means to host a page
20:53:26 [npdoty]
… feedback: is this accurate from a technology perspective? and is it useful for a policy perspective? does it go too far / too opinionated?
20:55:04 [npdoty]
Noah: the TAG taking a position of linking as a speech act could itself be an opinion violating that principle
20:56:02 [BradK]
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20:56:55 [RalphS]
-> "Publishing and Linking on the Web", TAG Editor's Draft 27 October 2011
20:57:22 [npdoty]
torgo: clearly delineate which parts discuss the positive/negative impacts on the Web, and separate them from factual presentation
20:59:05 [RalphS]
Olvier: consider disambiguating what acts are "performance" in the copyright sense; what acts are "speech"
21:00:01 [RalphS]
Noah: I'd avoid the legal terms as (a) they're not our area of expertise and (b) they vary across jurisdictions
21:00:18 [RalphS]
... stick to explaining what the Web does
21:01:33 [npdoty]
olivier: it would be useful at some point to have some IP lawyers involved in this documentation
21:01:41 [npdoty]
Noah: meeting with Rigo on Friday as one step
21:03:24 [npdoty]
npdoty: there might be people at UC Berkeley who would be interested in helping; Pam Samuelson, perhaps, but also other faculty including Brian Carver and Deirdre Mulligan; I can help make those contacts
21:04:04 [npdoty]
@@: structuring the document differently would make it easier to understand; add a Frequently Asked Questions
21:04:27 [RalphS]
s/@@/Dan Druta, AT&T/
21:04:34 [npdoty]
… encourage people on the web to link to this FAQ
21:05:04 [npdoty]
… "read later" as an interesting use case, user-driven caching
21:05:37 [npdoty]
… a user can bookmark and have it cached on a server (Instapaper, Read Later, etc.)
21:06:52 [npdoty]
Noah: the involvement of the user for various forms of caching could make a difference to a court's judgment
21:07:11 [npdoty]
DanD: becoming a popular trend, as in new version of iOS
21:07:47 [npdoty]
… widgetizing a page out of publicly available content, and making it available to a user
21:08:30 [npdoty]
… curating content
21:09:10 [npdoty]
… is there liability to the moderator or curator?
21:12:58 [npdoty]
npdoty: an example from the Tracking Protection Working Group about the potential copyright infringement of user agent tools that prevent making certain requests
21:13:55 [npdoty]
Noah: note that user agents have a lot of flexibility about how they interpret a page (not loading images by default, varying presentation for accessibility or other purposes)
21:14:30 [npdoty]
@@@: a range that would also include screen-scraping, for Flipboard, for example
21:18:00 [npdoty]
torgo: in some cases we want to tell a content owner that if they want a particular protection, rather than defining it in a terms of service they could also take these simple technical measures
21:18:53 [npdoty]
DanD: real-time translation another scenario, transforming content in a way that might not be approved (or even accurate)
21:19:01 [npdoty]
<anecdote about riots and garden parties>
21:19:11 [Bert]
s/@@@/Brad Kemper/
21:21:20 [npdoty]
hadley: people generally understand that linking to something is talking about it without the target's endorsement
21:21:56 [npdoty]
… the granularity that links allow to a single piece of data (Linked Data) affects this perception
21:23:00 [npdoty]
… usually you link to a specific piece of data in the context of another act of interpretation, analysis or processing
21:23:42 [olivier]
[ Note - someone else we may want to talk to is Michael Geist: ]
21:25:07 [npdoty]
Noah: could say, let's assume that links are benign, with a discussion of context
21:26:14 [npdoty]
… though the text of the URI itself could make a difference
21:27:04 [npdoty]
olivier: fair use will vary by country, which is one danger of giving interpretations for a particular country
21:28:21 [npdoty]
Noah: should just describe the consequences, rather than taking a position about which consequences you policymakers should avoid
21:30:21 [npdoty]
torgo: continue discussion on the public tag email list
21:30:52 [npdoty]
rrsagent, draft minutes
21:30:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate npdoty
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