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21:37:31 <darobin> pi: we're going to talk about the jQuery Standards Group
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21:37:32 <npdoty> scribenick: darobin
21:37:40 <darobin> ... how we're going to help improve specifications
21:37:52 <darobin> ... things that developers want in the platform that we don't see being actively developed
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21:37:58 <darobin> ... how to get better involvement from authors
21:38:20 <darobin> yk: I don't like the fact that we use "author", most people are really developers
21:38:29 <darobin> ... it's a pet peeve but I won't fight too much on it
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21:38:43 <darobin> ... bunch of us were complaining about the standards process at the jq meetup
21:38:50 <darobin> ... why don't we formalise that?
21:39:01 <darobin> ... should sollicit from webdevs what they feel should change
21:39:17 <darobin> ... mostly the higher tier, who have a sense of the failures of the platform
21:39:32 <darobin> ... know how we can make sites 10x faster if we fix document fragments
21:39:40 <darobin> .... people engaged in papering over issues
21:39:49 <darobin> ... process designed for browser vendors
21:39:56 <darobin> ... we wanted to create a forum for that
21:40:05 <darobin> pi: we want to represent the community
21:40:10 <darobin> ... help them get engaged
21:40:18 <darobin> ... help vendors prioritise properly
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21:40:23 <darobin> ... match the pain points from devs
21:40:34 <darobin> ... keen to see jq adopt the new standards
21:40:51 <darobin> yk: eg RAF, we can really help make half the websites adopt it
21:40:57 <darobin> pi: feature detection
21:41:07 <darobin> .... current BP in defensive xbrowser dev
21:41:19 <darobin> ... we need robust feature detection
21:41:25 <darobin> ... they can be slow though
21:41:31 <darobin> ... sometimes it can be hard to do, unclear
21:41:42 <darobin> ... e.g. fixed has a different behaviour on mobile
21:41:53 <darobin> ... when it fails people have to resort to UA sniffing
21:42:00 <wycats> https://github.com/jquery/jquery/blob/master/src/support.js
21:42:24 <darobin> yk shows some of the stuff that jq does
21:42:42 <darobin> .... some of the tests can be quite complex
21:42:58 <darobin> ... we want the spec making process to take feature detect into account
21:43:06 <darobin> ... would make startup a lot faster
21:43:17 <darobin> pi: false positives are a problem
21:43:36 <darobin> ... FX half-implemented transforms, and broke feat detect
21:43:43 <darobin> ... Chrome has done similar stuff
21:43:59 <darobin> ... then you have the issue of exceptions on common feat detect vectors
21:44:05 <darobin> ... FD has a good reputation
21:44:28 <darobin> ... but when done poorly it's as bad as UA sniffing
21:44:51 <darobin> yk: historical note, hasFeature failed
21:45:01 <darobin> ... we should learn something about the past ten years
21:45:07 <krisk> can someone place a url to the slide deck in IRC?
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21:45:43 <vhardy> robin: what we can do in specs is that have a checklist. There is a limit over what the browsers do.
21:46:03 <vhardy> yk: the spec. could say that an implementation should not claim it implements something unless...
21:46:19 <vhardy> robin: what has an effect is if we design an API in a way that people do not get it wrong.
21:46:41 <vhardy> yk: I think that browsers should not expose a property if they do not implement it.
21:46:52 <darobin> chris: how many browsers do you think there are?
21:47:03 <darobin> yk: there are many but only few that people care about 
21:47:09 <darobin> ... opera is the bottom line
21:47:17 <darobin> ... there's no one who can address below opera
21:47:28 <darobin> ... a lot of people try to make browsers, few succeed
21:47:49 <darobin> pi: being able to define what feat detect strategy in the spec would be ideal
21:48:22 <darobin> ... so that it won't false positive
21:48:36 <npdoty> robin: could we collaborate on a best practices document for specification writers? (on things like feature detection in specs)
21:48:54 <darobin> heycam: webidl could do that
21:49:02 <darobin> ... don't know if we need to do that in the spec
21:49:13 <darobin> ... not sure if editors are more informed
21:49:24 <darobin> yk: it should be a spec failure to do it wrong
21:49:40 <darobin> [scribe lost in fast discussion]
21:49:49 <darobin> yk: I think that browsers are responsive to bugs
21:49:59 <darobin> js: I think I'm with you
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21:50:08 <darobin> ... for functions it's easy, for events it's harder
21:50:09 <npdoty> ... and that browser vendors think that a violation of the spec is a bug
21:50:17 <darobin> yk: yes, we need something for events
21:50:42 <darobin> nm: there are certain things where you need total buy-in, but in this case even partial buy-in is already a win
21:51:08 <darobin> ... if it becomes part of the folklore it will become self-sustaining
21:51:39 <darobin> james: one problem with things like hasFeature is that there's an incentive for vendors to do it wrong
21:51:52 <darobin> yk: but the disincentive is that you break a lot of sites
21:52:16 <darobin> js: it is a real problem, we've seen browsers implement new features by just passing feat detect
21:52:23 <darobin> ... since it's new, not breaking the web doesn't apply
21:52:40 <darobin> yk: the solution to that is using modernizr deep testing
21:52:44 <jrossi2> q+ shepazu
21:52:48 <darobin> js: so html5test doesn't do that
21:53:08 <npdoty> q?
21:53:15 <darobin> james: feel bad about using a real example
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21:53:39 <npdoty> q+ shepazu
21:53:42 <darobin> yk: we're all on the same side
21:53:43 <lgombos> q+
21:54:11 <darobin> yk: the competitors to the web platform don't have this problem, can we agree to fix this?
21:54:16 <darobin> js: I think we had
21:54:40 <darobin> the problem is partial implementation
21:54:59 <darobin> ds: in d3ev we tried to go to fine grained feat detect but it wasn't very popular
21:55:08 <npdoty> ack shepazu
21:55:15 <darobin> js: I think that putting this stuff in the spec will take us already far
21:55:24 <darobin> ... I do really like that idea
21:55:26 <lgombos> q-
21:55:48 <darobin> pi: specs don't capture enough of the rationale
21:55:58 <darobin> ... devs are reverse engineering what a feature affords us
21:56:07 <darobin> ... because they don't read the standards lists
21:56:19 <jrossi2> It's not perfect, but this was somewhat on that idea of sub feature / behavioral detection: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#extended-feature-string
21:56:23 <darobin> ... leaving out the UCs means that devs miss great features
21:56:30 <darobin> ... more complex examples help a lot
21:56:42 <darobin> ... written UCs would help
21:57:30 <darobin> ... (shows F:D&S)
21:57:38 <npdoty> http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/file-system/file-dir-sys.html#use-cases
21:57:50 <darobin> robin: we should get devs to send us UCs so that we can paste them into the specs
21:58:17 <darobin> yk: the discussion over the hidden attribute should be summarised in the spec because it makes sense to understand what it's good for
21:58:27 <darobin> ds: if only so taht people stop asking the same question
21:58:59 <darobin> pi: we asked on twitter what bugs people wanted fixed
21:59:10 <darobin> ... got 300 devs, some terrible, some really good
21:59:32 <darobin> yk: (list on screen)
21:59:37 <npdoty> http://paulirish.com/2011/what-feature-would-improve-the-web/
21:59:47 <darobin> ... a lot of big features like appcache
22:00:04 <darobin> ... get into the spec and implemented before devs have had a chance to figure out that it's broken
22:00:18 <darobin> ... that feedback should happen earlier and better
22:00:48 <darobin> chris: you seem like that prime candidates for test writing, we're trying to do more and more tests
22:01:22 <darobin> js: I'm not actually sure that this solution is fixing the problem
22:01:49 <darobin> yk: if there's no adoption, if people have events to discuss the issues, it should be considered feedback
22:02:22 <darobin> .... also, there's often a lot of pushback when the feature has already been implemented
22:02:37 <darobin> yk: it would be great if there were a forum for developers to say when something is broken
22:02:57 <npdoty> s/forum/W3C forum/
22:03:05 <darobin> ... don't specs need multiple implementations
22:03:19 <darobin> js: yes, but if the implementation has shipped too long ago, it's hard or impossible to ship
22:03:36 <darobin> yk: if would be good if devs could play with the feature before it goes to W3C
22:03:53 <darobin> james: being in a spec isn't fatal
22:04:05 <darobin> ... what's fatal is when people depend on that feature
22:04:17 <darobin> ... we could maybe change appcache because no one is using it
22:04:31 <darobin> yk: qSA is a great example of something that's broken
22:05:14 <darobin> js: I agree, we need input from implementers and authors
22:05:17 <tobie> q+
22:05:27 <darobin> ... maybe we're trying in the wrong way
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22:05:58 <noah> q?
22:06:01 <noah> q+
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22:06:28 <npdoty> q?
22:06:49 <darobin> ds: we need to move on, great discussion we should cover more ground
22:06:51 <Suresh> Suresh has joined #jquery
22:06:52 <npdoty> ack tobie
22:06:57 <shepazu> q+
22:07:20 <darobin> tobie: the problem boils down to the fact that devs want to use stuff before they go mainstream, but once they use it vendors can't change it
22:07:25 <shepazu> q-
22:07:26 <darobin> ... we need to find a way to fix this
22:07:39 <npdoty> ack noah
22:07:41 <darobin> nm: my point is similar, hard to hit sweet spot
22:07:55 <darobin> ... seems like appcache might be okay there
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22:08:20 <darobin> ... in Geo that wasn't the case, when the spec went out for comments there were already too many sites using the stuff
22:08:34 <darobin> ... I wasn't wrong tecnically, but they couldn't change
22:08:39 <darobin> yk: same with qSA
22:09:05 <darobin> ds: the tail is wagging the dog here, content is easier to change
22:09:37 <darobin> nm: I think it would be good if the community would push us to a better situation
22:09:44 <shepazu> q?
22:09:50 <darobin> yk: I think that we should use vendor prefixes properly, make a better contract
22:10:14 <darobin> js: we need devs involved earlier, how to do it is a harder problem
22:10:32 <Suresh> Would having JQuery submit test cases help?
22:10:38 <darobin> ACTION: Robin to coordinate with pi and yk to get a BP document about feature detection
22:11:08 <darobin> yk: try to get a group together around this
22:11:22 <darobin> chris: write tests
22:11:35 <darobin> tobie: this can't just be about devs, but also vendors and many others
22:12:13 <darobin> yk: I would be submitting test for things that we can't do but should
22:12:32 <darobin> ACTION: Robin to look into creating a CG for library developers, browsers, editors to communicate
22:12:51 <darobin> pi: we're coordinating with other libraries to move forward
22:12:59 <darobin> ... we have a mailing list
22:13:06 <darobin> ... we have GH issue tracker
22:13:08 <noah> My particular point was: yes, having good implementations ahead of frozen specs is very important, but conversely it is very desirable to publish reasonably good drafts of specifications\ for community comment >before< the code is de facto frozen by too widespread adoption of the early implementations.
22:13:40 <darobin> (showing examples from the issue tracker)
22:13:55 <wycats> darobin: +1
22:14:25 <darobin> pi: scaling the group, need to identify champions for specific features
22:14:40 <darobin> ACTION: Robin to look into using GH for spec development
22:14:57 <darobin> yk: the ML has evolved into a safer place for devs to make feature proposals
22:15:11 <shepazu> Please support this group… need 4 others http://www.w3.org/community/groups/proposed/#scriptlib
22:15:13 <noah> Dumb question: which ML?
22:15:14 <darobin> ... people find it hard to go to public-webapps because they're afraid to look stupid there
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22:16:12 <darobin> pi: we want to show the voice of the devs
22:16:22 <darobin> ... reviewing and submitting test cases
22:16:25 <wycats> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/jquery-standards
22:16:42 <darobin> ... I don't think devs realise that tests are written in the language of web devs, when specs aren't
22:16:54 <darobin> yk: getting specs to link to tests
22:17:17 <darobin> js: implementing a feature is 50% writing tests — if the tests are already there we get there faster
22:17:46 <darobin> ??: how do we get the feedback from non-English speakers
22:18:02 <darobin> ... but some features like bidi needs to be from native devs of those languages
22:18:15 <darobin> ds: having them write tests would already help a lot
22:18:22 <myakura> s/??/rn/
22:18:24 <darobin> james: very much in favour of tests
22:18:37 <darobin> ... they should be in the w3c framework
22:18:57 <darobin> (global agreement to move in that direction)
22:19:19 <noah> Tnx (oooh...#! URI!)
22:19:35 <krisk> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing
22:19:51 <krisk> has all the info you need to submit tests to the HTML WG
22:19:55 <darobin> pi: one of the things that's kind of blocked devs is that lists are overwhelming
22:20:05 <darobin> js: too many emails, or too high requirements?
22:20:07 <darobin> all: both
22:20:24 <shepazu> (we need to make it clear that tests are welcome from everyone, and have a review process)
22:20:32 <shepazu> q?
22:20:32 <darobin> yk: it's easy to bring up ideas but then it devolves into implementation discussions, devs lose track/interest
22:20:34 <shepazu> q+
22:20:45 <darobin> pi: call for ideas
22:20:53 <darobin> ds: I have a proposal
22:21:08 <darobin> ... having advocates who can go out there in the community and help drive the ideas they get there
22:21:17 <darobin> [so more like ambassadors]
22:21:34 <darobin> ... it may seem silly but I see no other way
22:21:55 <darobin> rn: the vendors already have dev events where they get feedback
22:22:09 <wycats> something like Chrome DevRel for W3C
22:22:12 <darobin> ... can't we have that for W3C?
22:22:21 <darobin> ds: W3C Conf!
22:22:37 <darobin> ... first year we're doing it we're still learning
22:22:40 <npdoty> http://www.w3.org/conf/, discount code "tpac"
22:22:52 <darobin> ... next year will be more about feedback
22:23:22 <darobin> ... we can also have smaller things
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22:23:35 <darobin> chris: there's a lot of devs
22:23:37 <npdoty> ack shepazu
22:23:38 <darobin> ... millions!
22:23:52 <darobin> ... I'd love to say that I listen to all bugs from devs
22:24:08 <darobin> ... I thikn that participating in the w3c public lists is good because it gets back to it
22:24:18 <darobin> yk: I thikn that devs of popular libs have super useful information
22:25:06 <darobin> ??: it could be useful to organise money for great demos, would help everyone
22:25:23 <npdoty> s/??/henri/
22:25:23 <wycats> https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=ajdqczcmx5pv_148ggbxbfg2&pli=1
22:25:41 <wycats> awwwwwwww
22:25:43 <myakura> rrsagent, make logs public
22:26:12 <myakura> Meeting: What jquery and js developers want from web stds.
22:26:12 <krisk> http://bit.ly/jqueryw3cpres is the URL :)
22:26:28 <npdoty> Chair: shepazu, yk, pi
22:26:42 <npdoty> Meeting: jQuery Standards breakout session
22:26:48 <npdoty> rrsagent, draft minutes
22:26:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-jquery-minutes.html npdoty
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22:28:25 <myakura> s/chris/kris/g
22:28:33 <myakura> rrsagent, make minutes
22:28:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-jquery-minutes.html myakura
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22:55:08 <jrossi2> q+
22:55:25 <jrossi2> q-
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