00:00:04 zakim, who is on the phone? 00:00:04 On the phone I see Sandro 00:00:52 Zakim, I am the scribe 00:00:52 I don't understand 'I am the scribe', olyerickson 00:00:54 scribe: olyerickson 00:01:00 scribe: olyerickson 00:01:44 topic: Open Government Data Practices and Policies (continued) 00:02:00 ping. can someone dial back in, code CONF2 ? 00:02:26 hadley: have now recognized that they need to do more 00:02:40 PhilA, ? 00:02:50 ... conversations w/ dev's focus on problem of data behind paywalls 00:03:00 what is open data 00:03:13 Can you dial in? code Conf2 00:03:26 what rights do citizens have to data 00:03:26 what is our obligation to citizens 00:04:40 The Shareholder Executive is responsible for maximizing revenue from (e.g.) selling of data 00:05:06 Conflicts with transparency objective of govt 00:05:53 people like Chris Taggert are concerned because solutions to consultations may go the way of charging for data 00:06:10 further complicated by fact that UK part of EU 00:06:39 zakim, who is here? 00:06:39 On the phone I see Sandro 00:06:40 On IRC I see HadleyBeeman, tlr, olyerickson, bhyland, jkiss, chsiao, PhilA, harlanyu_, Zakim, RRSAgent, edsu, trackbot, sandro 00:06:43 ... EU *guideline* is that only marginal costs should be charged for data 00:07:00 ... plus a "reasonable" rate of return 00:07:15 zakim, what is the code? 00:07:15 the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), PhilA 00:07:36 Further complicated by fact that e.g. Ordnance Survey largely private sector company 00:08:25 Each of the Consultation documents is roughly 40 pgs long 00:09:30 Hadley has no idea what will happen. While we'd like all data to be free, the reality is there is data that must be paid for 00:10:31 Decision is due "early next year" 00:10:53 +tpac 00:11:01 thanks! 00:11:07 sandrom can you hear us? 00:11:11 Ack 00:11:12 yes 00:17:02 zakim, who is on the phone? 00:17:02 On the phone I see Sandro, tpac 00:29:33 Topic: Accessibility with Jason Kiss 00:30:09 jkiss: open data isn't really my thing. If I weren't here, would you talk about accessibility? 00:30:31 jeenne: yes accessibility of gov websites is a topic 00:31:01 jkiss: section 508 covers all government paid for ICT. cf. Canada it's based on human rights 00:31:19 jkiss: UK 2010 Equality act mandates that gov sites are accessible 00:32:07 ... Canada only applies to public websites. Internal ones only have to be accessible to disabled staff so it's common to see inaccessible intranets even though that would break policies 00:32:38 ... Australia has govt ICT councils that endorse a strategy that moves to WCAG 2. NZ has a Cabinet Minute 00:33:14 ... but that's still a rule and that effectively mandates public gov sites are accessible 00:34:23 jkiss: UN mandates accessibility too. Subject to ratification but US is holding it up. It's based on human rights principles 00:35:12 ... same problems exist in all gov web teams - lack of skill nad knowledge 00:35:22 ... also most 3rd party web development firms 00:35:33 ... some do very well but generally the level of skill is not good 00:36:14 ... intro of HTML and more JS means that web developers have more to learn. Tend to just grab what's available 00:36:30 ... getting levels of accessibility up is going to be a continued difficulty 00:37:09 ... gets more difficult when we talk about open data. Visualisation of masses of data is really good but that leaves a whole bunch of people unable to access it 00:37:41 ... it can't always be translated into a format that is accessible to a blind person or someone that can't easily use a mouse 00:38:19 Jeanne: Does it help that we're developing for devises that don't have mice? 00:39:08 jkiss: I'd say it helps a little. Assistive devices translate keyboard actions etc translate actions into mouse movements 00:39:40 jkiss: There's a really good Aussie assistant that is free cf. Jaws which costs %1K 00:39:54 s/%/$/ 00:40:09 jkiss: it's a fully blown across the board Windows screen reader 00:40:28 ... for web browsing I'd say it's better than Jaws 00:40:44 jkiss: NVDA Non Visual Desktop Access is the tool 00:41:10 olyerickson has joined #egov 00:41:36 olyerickson: news stories have been inaccessible to gov websites because the accessibility isn't there 00:42:58 ... how does accessibility hamper the new outputs? 00:43:10 ... and how do we need to think about visualisations? 00:43:57 jkiss: The Canadian govt just wrote a new standard on accessibility to replace the old one - cites WCAG 2 and the new section 508 will do the same 00:44:20 "Section 508" link: http://www.section508.gov/ 00:44:34 ... they've included some exemptions, such as for complex maps, such as radar weather maps 00:45:23 jkiss: there's an exemption because the tech isn't there yet to avoid an inordinate amount of work to create an alternative representayion 00:46:47 "Aria" link: http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria 00:47:58 jkiss: emphasises low cost of doing accessibility at the outset cf. adding it afterwards 00:48:44 JH: I believe in living by the spirit, not just the letter of 508 00:49:11 ... when I work on any project, meeting 508 is always the last thing they think of 00:49:50 ... alt="planet" for a beautiful picture of Saturn doesn't quite cutr it 00:49:56 s/curt/cut/ 00:50:25 jh: now we have heavily tagged images - it's a great resource 00:50:46 phila: mobile is very close to accessibility 00:51:21 ... if you build a mobile site, you automatically achieve (high percentage) of WCAG 00:51:57 jkiss: examples include building mobile site first, then following with full site 00:52:16 phila: teaches "responsible web design" 00:52:40 JH: Somestimes shocked at her lack of understanding of accessibility 00:53:18 ... but there are interesting exceptions, such as secondlife: everything is a map coordinate 00:54:12 jh: the question is, how to deal with navigating datasets 00:54:26 jkiss: format will help 00:55:06 JH: Need to build out list of resources, in this case list of policies 00:55:41 action: jiss to provide list on international policies and guidelines on accessibility 00:55:41 Sorry, couldn't find user - jiss 00:55:58 action: jkiss to provide list on international policies and guidelines on accessibility 00:55:58 Sorry, couldn't find user - jkiss 00:56:49 jkiss: the "5 nations" have expressed accessibility standards 00:57:08 ... UK is least 'formalized" 00:57:28 ... UK; "directive on accessible web sites" 00:57:55 HB: Does UK work? Allows for common sense to be applied 00:58:57 jkiss: WCAG-2 a leap forward from WCAG-1. Concern over loose guidance, could lead to restrictions that are not necessary 00:59:46 ... some cases where stronger guidance might lead to better/more accessible results 01:00:11 ... BUT if common sense is working, then that's great! 01:01:31 jkiss: common/shared services, common look and feel, etc are good things; you start off automatically accessible 01:01:59 phila: Should we talk about archiving/records management? 01:02:02 tlr has joined #egov 01:03:13 Natl Archives is chartered with all of UK records management 01:06:02 BS 8878 http://bit.ly/t9CM8X 01:06:24 "Draft BS 8878:2009 Web accessibility. Building accessible experiences for disabled people. Code of practice" http://bit.ly/t9CM8X 01:07:54 "Cultural capital for WCAG" 01:09:55 discussion of W3C recommendation imprimatur 01:10:20 TOPIC: Tomorrow 01:10:27 reconvience at 9a 01:11:25 olyerickson: I'll lead a social media free for all tomorrow morning 01:11:41 ... there are several issues for us to talk around 01:12:07 JH: The world and social media are changing 01:12:35 ... we should have a sense of how it impacts governments 01:13:01 jh: Then Anne Fitzgerald from Aus will call in to talk about licensing 01:13:15 ... then Bernadette will talk about the directory 01:13:31 ... then John is back on after lunch to talk about E&O 01:13:56 Meeting adjourning at 18:13 01:17:19 rrsagent, generate minutes 01:17:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-egov-minutes.html PhilA 01:19:14 UK's public data principles: http://data.gov.uk/blog/new-public-sector-transparency-board-and-public-data-transparency-principles 01:22:25 PhilA has left #egov 01:25:22 -tpac 01:25:23 -Sandro 01:25:23 Team_(egov)23:54Z has ended 01:25:24 Attendees were Sandro, tpac 01:29:50 HadleyBeeman has joined #egov 01:58:51 olyerickson has joined #egov 04:22:04 chsiao has joined #egov 04:43:34 olyerickson has joined #egov 15:59:06 RRSAgent has joined #egov 15:59:06 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-egov-irc 15:59:18 zakim, code? 15:59:18 sorry, PhilA, I don't know what conference this is 15:59:33 zakim, this will be egov 15:59:33 ok, sandro, I see SW_e-Gov(eGovIG)11:00AM already started 15:59:34 meeting: eGovIG 15:59:37 zakim, code? 15:59:37 the conference code is 346844 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sandro 15:59:51 sandro has changed the topic to: eGov all-day meeting Oct 31, Nov 1 -- http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4 Conf Code 346844 ("EGOVIG") 16:00:34 davemc has joined #egov 16:00:45 Kevin and I are on the telecon bridge … talking about Halloween activities. 16:00:56 Hear ye, hear ye...we haven't started yet... 16:01:21 yosuke has joined #egov 16:02:21 we only had eleven kids. all time low 16:02:35 We have more people in the meeting room today, but we're waiting for Jeanne and Hadley to arrive 16:02:57 we must have had 40-50 kids; no idea what the norm is for this house, since we just moved in. 16:03:29 Jeanne has just arrived 16:04:46 We're going around the room doing introductions 16:04:49 +Sandro 16:05:07 olyerickson, why aren't you dialed in? 16:05:15 PhilA is doing that now 16:05:54 +tpac 16:07:30 We have 10 people in the meeting room...Hadley has not shown yet 16:07:32 Phil/John, would you kindly double check positioning of the mics in the room … voices are cutting in & out and sound quite distant ... 16:07:45 gdick has joined #eGov 16:07:45 It was better yesterday ... 16:08:27 We are missing every 3rd or 4th word Jeanne is saying ... 16:08:56 (its unusable today) 16:09:27 We hear Phil perfectly ... 16:09:51 Perhaps put the women a bit closer ... 16:10:00 @bhyland we are circled around the mics 16:10:06 ok. 16:10:06 ahaller2 has joined #egov 16:10:12 present+ Daniel Hdladky 16:10:45 present+ Victor Klintsov 16:11:01 matthewy has joined #egov 16:11:19 present+ Armin 16:11:25 See http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4 for links to minutes 16:11:27 Jeanne has joined #egov 16:11:33 To the people on the phone: we hear you very well! 16:12:02 rigo has joined #egov 16:13:25 Everyone doing introductions now. 16:13:47 zakim, who is on the phone? 16:13:47 On the phone I see Kevin_Simkins, bhyland, Sandro, tpac 16:14:15 Scribes: 9-10:45 scribe Jeanne 16:14:31 11-12:30 scribe John 16:15:00 after lunch Dave 16:15:05 Final session me 16:15:07 davemc has joined #egov 16:15:33 TOPIC: Social Media and eGov 16:17:15 John: The session on social media is noting that is a topic that has come up before. there was a paper by John Sheridan and others 16:17:19 tlr has joined #egov 16:17:20 http://www.w3.org/2008/09/msnws/papers/egov-social-ws.html 16:18:11 John: The paper noted that a lot more participation by citizens and government would occur. In Gov-citizens, Citizens-Gov, and citizens to citizens 16:18:31 That social media would play a roll in elections, campaigning and overall communications. 16:20:07 What is the status of a presidential tweet? 16:21:47 Congress people (and UK MPs) tweet from the chamber 16:22:01 HadleyBeeman has joined #egov 16:22:04 Dave: Congress in the US tweets, as do many others. 16:22:14 ahaller2 has joined #egov 16:22:27 Dave: A lot of campaign contributions are collected using social media, particularly driven through Twitter. 16:22:36 RE Social media policies for govt workers, see: http://www.egov.vic.gov.au/victorian-government-resources/government-initiatives-victoria/law-and-justice-victoria/social-media-policy-department-of-justice.html 16:23:08 Dave: An interesting point between swaying public opinion vs. stating their opinion. 16:23:44 Dave: The record of a how a bill goes through does not necessarily capture the social media aspects. 16:24:11 John: The Congressional Record is just the law itself. 16:25:32 John: The link above is about the social media guidelines for Australia government workers. 16:26:20 UAF guidance for "new media" http://www.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-090406-036.pdf 16:26:34 s/UAF/USAF/ 16:26:40 Dave: Air Force has a flowchart about the use of social media. 16:26:46 Hadley: The UK civil service is apolitical. When an election is occurring much of government goes quiet so that there's no conflict about the previous and future administrations. 16:26:48 John: Needs to be an international discussion about how all governments are engaging in social media. 16:27:02 HadleyBeeman: Rules were updated during the last time, and so civil servants just went quiet to be safe as possible because the rules were not clear. 16:27:18 HadleyBeeman: So I stopped tweeting during this time. 16:28:00 HadleyBeeman: Our rules are not structured well about the models of communication we now use. 16:28:28 kevinsimkins: Virtual environments are virtual synthetic environments--a platform and the software. 16:28:49 kevinsimkins: Virtual worlds; collaboration tools; gaming and interactive tools 16:29:32 kevinsimkins: and artificial intelligence 16:29:45 kevinsimkins: Gaming includes Flash, serious games, and training and testing 16:30:08 kevinsimkins: The mission of IEEE is to develop standards for all virtual environments to promote software data and reuse 16:30:17 We seem to be verging into gamification (the use of gaming elements in non-game environments) 16:30:24 kevinsimkins: The goal is to take modules from one environment to another 16:30:27 http://www.metaversestandards.org/index.php?title=Projects 16:30:47 kevinsimkins: Stargate (link above) is the first test case here 16:32:15 kevinsimkins: In the government, it would be great to have the whole virtual environment, agenda, global chat, individual chat, virtual backdrop of a city, business card sharing, upload into a user briefcase... 16:32:36 ...and these virtual collaboration rooms are an on-the-go room. You can also mark up a PDF or other document 16:32:49 ...and project it through virtual AVI or other format 16:33:37 ...desktop viewing for PowerPoint, webcam streaming. I can click on your avatar which can morphy into a real time webcam stream. 16:34:37 kevinsimkins: Holodeck challenge going on to create the best version of a holodeck 16:34:43 Zakim, slow Kevin down... 16:34:43 I don't understand 'slow Kevin down', olyerickson 16:35:37 kevinsimkins: including gestures and lots of other capabilities. 16:35:56 q+ 16:37:38 John: Slow down so that we can help others see what facet of egovernment can do in other types of social media 16:37:44 olyerickson: Why should we care and what are the issues? 16:37:50 kevinsimkins: there are a lot of interfacing tools and in the virtual space you can wrap them all up into one environment and have them all available at your fingertips 16:37:57 olyerickson: How should this be on the radar of eGov and what are the challenges governments are facings in this area? 16:38:24 kevinsimkins: the biggest potential to government is collaboration, but also artificial intelligence. You can have AI bot that lead people step by step through information. 16:38:57 davemc has joined #egov 16:39:18 Kevin, breathe please 16:39:26 we have several comments here 16:39:40 kevinsimkins: You have kinestetic, audio, virtual and others 16:39:43 ack ,e 16:40:07 ack PhillA 16:40:14 PhilA: I find this interesting, particularly in whether the AI and serious gaming can be used in an eGov environment to help policy decisions. 16:40:40 ...is it possible to imagine that you are considering an environmental policy or plan so that you can artificially create various effects. 16:40:55 bdhandspicker has joined #egov 16:41:04 PhilA: If a politician is looking at several choices, can you create a AI or virtual model? 16:41:09 ack me 16:41:16 kevinsimkins: Absolutely, the challenge this year was on AI. 16:41:28 along the lines of gaming: UK banking innovation via gaming : http://gamification.co/tag/uk-government/ 16:41:42 q+ 16:42:06 +bdhandspicker 16:42:51 PhilA: Within IEEE, if there was a workshop in Barcelona in 2012 could you present at it? 16:43:25 q? 16:43:27 kevinsimkins: Yes. There are lots of applications available today that allow governments to create assets and move them from world to world virtually. 16:43:29 q? 16:43:35 kevinsimkins: not everything is happening on your desktop. 16:44:05 kevinsimkins: you have consoles like XBox and Playstation. Cloud and other aspects affect the platform performance and choices. 16:44:07 Kevin, breath again: need to pop davemc from the queue 16:45:24 davemc: There are several examples in the area of gamification (see above). They built for the internal finance system a way to create and exchange currencies 16:45:31 PhilA: Notes kevinsimkins talking about Web-based virtual worlds - very close to Augmented Reality work in which W3C is playing a role 16:45:39 davemc: These have resulted in millions of pounds of savings. 16:45:42 +q 16:45:58 q+ 16:46:03 davemc: It has been extended to other places inside the UK and allows more innovative qualities of government. 16:46:04 ack davemc 16:46:07 ack me 16:46:11 q- 16:46:19 q+ 16:46:23 kevinsimkins: With social media, there are so many environments and packages that can be shared. 16:46:34 kevinsimkins: Whatever you have on your desktop you'll be able to share virtually. 16:46:50 JH: We're talking about platforms 16:46:58 ... ways to communicate with citizens 16:47:15 ... lots of experience with US DoD in virtual environments 16:47:33 +1 to Jeanne refocus. 16:47:35 ... re govts, use it mostly as a "broadcast" media 16:47:45 ...the term is "social media" 16:48:00 ... people use it because they can interact and respond to their audience 16:48:06 Interactions are incredibly important. 16:48:18 ... .transparent conversations 16:48:36 ... for W3C eGov: important to think about sharing policies for social media 16:48:36 q+ 16:48:49 ... also, using social media to develop community 16:49:01 ... virtual tools are another tool 16:49:16 q- 16:49:18 ack Jeanne 16:49:26 ack Jeanne 16:49:58 kevinsimkins: People don't like to download something, they want to be able to work from their desktop. 16:50:38 olyerickson: The citizenry has been able to use social media to interact and find a voice. But people are often barely able to use some collaborative tools. 16:50:58 olyerickson: There is a digitial divide between Facebook and Dropbox. 16:51:23 olyerickson: I postulate that the introduction of high-end collaborative tools separates the digitial haves and have nots. 16:51:43 olyerickson: There are tools that people are able to use and others that are more difficult. 16:51:45 not sure I agree with that download completely. In mobile, maybe, but the success of jQuery (~98 of all desktops) Flash (~97%), Adobe Acrobat Reader (~91%) say desktops are different 16:52:07 kevinsimkins: Everyone has Adobe, for example. 16:52:13 +1 to olyerickson's point— digital engagement (or lack thereof) does cause a speedbump in making social media policies 16:52:35 olyerickson: There are people who are unable to go onto their State's unemployment sites. The only way to communicate, but these people are homeless or don't have access. 16:53:00 olyerickson: They are told to go to their library, but there's a real problem where some people don't have computers. 16:53:36 olyerickson: Part of my volunteer work is connecting people with their unemployment centers. 16:53:37 +1 to olyerickson 16:53:43 davemc: +1 16:53:54 ack olyerickson 16:54:34 kevinsimkins: Net neutrality is important. If you have telecomm companies throttling your speed, it's affects access and freedoms. 16:54:37 CARD: How does eGov fit into the model of digital have-nots 16:54:43 ack HadleyBeeman 16:54:44 People who aren't connected digitally don't care about net neutrality... 16:55:04 tlr has joined #egov 16:55:07 q+ 16:55:13 HadleyBeeman: Authentication and cryptography are areas that governments have a lot of interest in. 16:55:21 @Olyerickson - you might be surprised with the penetration of of mobile devices among the poor in the US — homeless people are given mobile phones with a limited number of minutes & text plans precisely to interact with government, pharmacies, unemployment office, etc. 16:55:27 thinks High Frequency Trading of Information = High Frequency Policy Making !(necessary) 16:55:34 HadleyBeeman: There are infrastructure areas that governments will want a role and make a strong contribution. 16:55:39 -bdhandspicker 16:56:01 ack me 16:56:07 davemc: You just hit a sore spot, crytopgraphy is an export issue. I have to go through crypto analysis for every project I release. 16:56:08 +bdhandspicker 16:56:08 @bhyland would you like to jump into the queue? 16:56:22 davemc: We do have restrictions on some of this from our governments. 16:56:26 @olyerickson, no thank you. You have the issues ably handled. 16:56:30 ack davemc 16:56:47 q- 16:56:52 q+ 16:57:15 We have potential to liaise with the Federated Social Web XG, who are looking at crypto standards. Also, with regard to other policy areas (authentication, identity management/verification, net neutrality) 16:57:18 JH: REspectfully disagrees with Dave 16:57:36 ... need to be realistic 16:58:04 q+ 16:58:04 ... if we as govt intend to be efficient, how to reach across constituency 16:58:30 ... how to propagate across media / beyond electronic 16:58:35 davemc: We do have have and have nots. We are not necessarily trying to solve the problem for the have nots. Our model is trying to figure out the use of elecronic media. 16:59:06 DM: trying to deliver in the digital space...how we move to analog space is not necessarily our mission 17:00:06 JH: There are 5 countries represented in room whose citizens *are* able to access... example of India, primary delivery is e;ectronic, end delivery to villiages off posters 17:00:23 DM: can't have eGov solution that displaces current mechanisms 17:00:46 ... e.g. govs can have PDF form, but can't eliminate paper form 17:01:23 q- 17:02:28 q - 17:02:30 Anne Fitzgerald--are you on the chat? 17:02:39 kevinsimkins: Inspire people to do an action ... 17:02:48 kevinsimkins: to use social media and Twitter to push action to your targeted audience to open up an link to move further down the road with you. 17:03:50 bhyland: makes the point about queue managemenet 17:04:01 kevinsimkins: You want to inspire people to action. 17:04:01 again, suggest looking at gamification concepts for engagement 17:04:06 bhyland: Need to manage the queue for remote... 17:04:12 zakim, who is on the call? 17:04:12 On the phone I see Kevin_Simkins, bhyland, Sandro, tpac, bdhandspicker 17:04:22 zakim, who is here? 17:04:22 On the phone I see Kevin_Simkins, bhyland, Sandro, tpac, bdhandspicker 17:04:23 On IRC I see tlr, bdhandspicker, davemc, ahaller2, HadleyBeeman, rigo, Jeanne, matthewy, gdick, yosuke, RRSAgent, Zakim, PhilA, olyerickson, chsiao, kevinsimkins, MacTed, bhyland, 17:04:25 ... edsu, trackbot, sandro 17:05:25 Re the term egov… I'm starting to wonder if there's more scope in this group for informing infrastructural policies (like net neutrality, authentication and crypto) where governments may not have the resources or expertise to hand, but could be making laws/rules that impact the rest of the w3c work 17:05:51 q+ 17:05:56 olyerickson: Other than posting a position statement (like John Sheridan's), it's not clear to me what this group produced earlier. 17:06:04 ack bhyland 17:06:05 olyerickson: It's not clear to me now where we want to go. 17:06:11 q+ 17:06:41 olyerickson: When we deal with policy we have an intuitive feel for what we want to do. It's not clear to me how we should play with this. 17:06:49 q+ 17:06:53 ack me 17:06:58 q+ 17:07:12 to answer John: outside of the doc referenced, nothing was ever extended beyond this 17:07:34 PhilA: I noticed in the conversation two threads. Kevin, I find your work very interesting and some of those affect other W3C groups and I will follow up. 17:07:56 kevinsimkins: There are a lot of advancements and ways for people to interact. Keep an open mind to everything. Every advancement brings something new down the road. 17:08:16 kevinsimkins: You have to prepare yourself for where the future is. You have the abilities and all the tools needed to lead the charge. 17:08:26 q? 17:08:42 PhilA: The second thread is about the use of Twitter and social media generally, particularly by elected officials. 17:09:04 Victor: Members of the Duma do tweet. 17:09:15 PhilA: Is it a matter of public record. 17:09:30 Victor: Not a well spread social conversation or two side communication. 17:09:52 PhilA: If I tweet something, would you think that message is something that should be part of the public record of the discussions? 17:10:17 Victor: Generally they tweet some criticism of their colleagues, and not more substantial. 17:10:43 PhilA: My thought is that if it is the case that people other than us that if an elected official's tweets should be part of the public record... 17:12:14 PhilA: This would be a relatively quick thing for us to do. 17:12:19 @edsu, what is the current status of twitter archives at LoC? 17:12:21 PhilA: Library of Congress is supposed to be recording every tweet. Imagine you have an instance where legislators are told that all tweets will be recorded. It would require a small note or recommendation from the W3C. 17:12:28 Karen Myers (W3C): Did you discuss emergency alerts and the use of social media say in Japan during the tsunami? 17:12:42 ack davemc 17:13:46 davemc: Suggest two things: there are government docs that say this is how you should and should not use social media--we should collect and look across for commonalities of elements. 17:13:47 davemc: From that we can become an active task force to show social media is impacting government, outreach models, inreach models, emergencies. 17:13:58 CARD: (via Dave) we should collect and look across for commonalities of elements 17:14:20 q- 17:15:01 ack HadleyBeeman 17:15:09 HadleyBeeman: When government makes decisions, they try to create a well rounded picture 17:15:10 davemc: We need to create a best practices on the use of social media inward and outward facing for government. 17:15:21 davemc: You can tweet our California senators while in session. 17:15:36 +1 to davemc's point w.r.t. "best practices" document that captures applications of social media and rec'd policies, etc 17:15:42 HadleyBeeman: If you decide to put all public services on line, you cut off certain people. I think there are more such conflicts. 17:16:12 q+ 17:16:24 +1 to Hadley on providing guidance on impact 17:16:47 HadleyBeeman: The W3C has a very strong role in helping governments understand the impact of these decisions. 17:16:47 HadleyBeeman: There is a lot of information that would be important for people to understand. 17:18:01 PhilA: There is an interesting point about one policy affecting others or other standards. The place for that is the TAG. 17:18:01 PhilA: There are policies that do affect the Web and we need to write that up and note it for the TAG. 17:18:08 PhilA: The Technical Architecture Group is only elected folks who see how the affects of one area on other. 17:18:31 HadleyBeeman: We also need to reflect back to our colleeagues and others so that we can inform our own governments before such decisions are made. 17:18:37 ack me 17:18:56 kevinsimkins: Augmented reality allows people to tag and mark locations. 17:19:37 augmented reality is being looked at for standardization, whatever that means 17:19:49 ECMA led activity 17:19:51 Jeanne: It's clear that one aspect of policy might affect other areas 17:20:09 Jeanne: please help us consider where mwe might have connections to make 17:20:22 Jeanne: At end of day will we collect our items to do 17:21:30 http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/Draft_chater_of_EITF 17:22:12 yosuke: The new task force on the Web and TV IG is very interested in emergency information (see link above). 17:22:48 yosuke: We think that web and TV devices will be a great way to contribute government information and broadcast important information 17:23:34 PhilA: So the government already has ways to broadcast and they are using it for emergency information? 17:24:10 yosuke: Government needs to use the telecomm structure for web, tv, mobile, and social media. Now we have emergency information... 17:24:34 ...how should the government broadcast information. 17:25:06 PhilA: On the web and TV working group, the EITF might be formed to help understand how to use the web to get emergency information to people. 17:27:01 Jeanne: Having another group looking at e.g. disaster classifications etc would be useful 17:27:08 Bernard: If we are able to provide the tools that could be a good first step for governments. 17:27:11 bernardGidon: This would be seen as interesting for governments. W3C helping govs to establish/design the services 17:27:16 .. would make a lot of sense 17:27:30 thinks Emergency Information is one thing, Push is another 17:27:37 PhilA: Interesting that this comes out of Web and TV group 17:27:41 q 17:28:07 Karen: They have legal mandates that broadcasters need to support for emergency broadcasts. 17:28:34 chsiao: The Taiwan government is using mixed media, but social media is not that attractive to the government. 17:28:43 KarenMyers: the broadcasters have use cases, hence it comes through the Web and YV WG 17:29:12 chsiao: Social media is seen as a channel to force government to respond. We recently had an #Occupy event. 17:29:45 chsiao: We don't see how government is going to use social media to engage or broadcast. 17:31:16 chsiao: The government has lots of channels to do propaganda: TV, traditional media. The internet and social media is being used more for connecting with the younger generation. 17:31:44 just FYI: The FCC report on social media. http://www.fcc.gov/info-needs-communities 17:31:53 ahaller2: Australia: social media is like the US and UK, most senators and government departments tweet regularly and are very present on social media sites. 17:32:31 ahaller2: The government are looking into different policy areas starting last year 17:33:44 One of the guidelines Australia has is that PDF documents are not accessible. 17:33:51 ahaller2: Every government web site needs to follow WCAG standards 17:33:52 davemc: Note that is being retracted 17:34:59 ahaller2: Another issue is captions for videos since if you have to capture every video, you'd rather than upload it 17:35:30 clarification The retraction is that PDF is not accessible. PDF meets all WCAG 2.0 and Acrobat provides capabilities to meet WCAG 2 17:35:47 ahaller2: We just had a Gov 2.0 conference a few days ago 17:36:12 Victor: The policy is more or less independent. The state has lots of ways to traditionally provide content and information. 17:36:40 Victor: In Russia there are many state-owned media companies. They should listen to what society is saying. 17:36:53 WCAG best practices for PDF: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2011/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20110621/pdf.html 17:37:21 Victor: Officials need to see that there are technological and social systems that are changing. It's popular through young people who report accidents and bribes along the road and report them. 17:37:49 Victor: Our officials should react. It is interesting to see how the state-owned media company should organize ideas here because they are close to top officials. 17:39:40 Daniel: The media companies collect information over social media to help get a sense of what the public is feeling. 17:41:03 Daniel: This group a new opendata.ch that held a first meeting--there might be something coming up from that group. 17:41:11 Daniel: From Switzerland, the Ech.ch group is looking at standards on how to produce financial reports and produce documents. 17:41:13 "The media companies collect information" doesn't like that gatekeeper to elected officials 17:41:14 Daniel: If you check Twitter activity it's low, like 170 tweets for a politician. 17:41:57 Daniel: Social media is one way: Facebook, Twitter, and others. 17:42:46 Daniel: I think citizens are still following standard news pages, including the younger generations, although they are using FaceBook and Twitter. 17:43:20 Bernard: At the European level, in the nordic region they have a lot of initiatives to open the government data to the population. It is part of the social environment and they are pushing it. 17:43:40 Bernard: In Israel, they are very open and want to provide this type of information to the population. 17:44:05 Bernard: Some of this is related to security problems, like providing all the bus timing, but they are in the real process to open information. 17:44:37 Bernard: In France, there are lots of places and cities that are opening up the data. There's a real process in Europe to do this and the UK story was well received. 17:44:54 Bernard: It's very interesting to show the population how they are leading. 17:45:40 Bernard: The President tweets and during a government meeting, some minister is sending information about what is going on during the meeting. But the President asked them to shut it down because they were talking too soon. 17:46:24 Karen: In Boston, a very sophisticated area. Senators, state, and federal levels in social media. The mayor of Boston is concerned when a lot of tweets come in about potholes or other things. 17:46:43 Karen: There are many more issues that are exposed and there is a two way interaction. 17:47:27 ack 17:47:31 q+ 17:47:36 q- 17:47:56 tlr has joined #egov 17:48:11 olyerickson: The state of Vermont uses social media to gather needed repairs and reports about roads and disasters. 17:48:13 q- 17:49:35 q? 17:49:46 zakim, who is here? 17:49:46 On the phone I see Kevin_Simkins, bhyland, Sandro, tpac, bdhandspicker 17:49:47 On IRC I see tlr, bdhandspicker, davemc, ahaller2, HadleyBeeman, rigo, Jeanne, matthewy, gdick, yosuke, RRSAgent, Zakim, PhilA, olyerickson, chsiao, kevinsimkins, MacTed, bhyland, 17:49:50 ... edsu, trackbot, sandro 17:50:30 Matthew Yates: Very interested in government and citizens use of social media. Concern: the use is evolving at such a pace, is W3C positioned to respond quickly onthis? 17:50:34 bhyland: Very interesting to hear everyone's perspectives. 17:50:43 q+ 17:51:10 kevinsimkins: Good to think about augmented reality and the citizen-citizen interactions 17:51:31 kevinsimkins: And gov-citizen interactions that allow mobile connectivity as well. 17:51:33 kevinsimkins: talks about Augmented Reality on mobile and where citizens can upload info about things like length of queues at locations etc. 17:52:18 bhyland: Because this is so well funded at DoD in the US, what is the time horizon for this to be more used by the general public? 17:52:27 thinks like data.gov airports app ? 17:52:49 AR is also quite active in the open source community. 17:52:53 bhyland: Many of the apps used were developed initially by DoD and others. 17:53:09 bhyland: what is the horizon until these are easily available? 17:53:09 q+ 17:53:18 kevinsimkins: Two years 17:53:31 Thanks Kevin, very interesting. 17:53:40 AR from gartner hype cycle: http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=1447613 17:53:45 JonathanJ has joined #egov 17:53:48 ack HadleyBeeman 17:53:57 if you trust gartner 17:54:22 @Jeanne - are you going to take a break before I facilitate a session on W3C Government Linked Data WG / Community Directory? 17:54:57 HadleyBeeman: UK government is currently funding 600,000 pounds of competition in the private sector to manage publicly available social media data. 17:55:07 PhilA: There is an Augmented Reality IG and are looking at which areas of web technology are available. 17:55:08 ack Phila 17:55:10 bhyland: Yes 17:55:49 PhilA: This group should look at the use of such technologies within gov 17:57:34 -bdhandspicker 17:57:48 The discussion after the break is an update on W3C Government Linked Data Working Group & the Community Directory deliverable. Slides at http://www.slideshare.net/bhylandwood/20111101-b-hylandw3ctpacegov-9979983 17:57:56 http://explore.data.gov/Transportation/Airport-Status-Web-Service/73wc-weaf 17:58:06 (sorry I couldn't post on W3C wiki as the limit was 5MB and my deck is a bit larger ...) 17:59:02 -bhyland 17:59:17 I'll dial back in at 11:15AM PST 18:03:19 -Kevin_Simkins 18:07:40 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:07:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-egov-minutes.html JonathanJ 18:13:11 +bhyland 18:21:00 zkim, i'm the scribe. 18:21:14 olyerickson1 has joined #egov 18:21:37 http://www.slideshare.net/bhylandwood/20111101-b-hylandw3ctpacegov-9979983 18:21:42 zakim, I am the scribe. 18:21:42 I don't understand 'I am the scribe', olyerickson1 18:21:52 scribe: olyerickson 18:22:00 TOPIC: community directory 18:23:00 Point of order: AnneF will speak in afternoon 18:23:29 bhyland: will highlight importance of o.g. licensing during talk 18:23:39 HadleyBeeman has joined #egov 18:23:49 ... has updated slides on w3c site 18:24:14 ... correction: NOT yet on site 18:24:15 Here are my slides, please see http://www.slideshare.net/bhylandwood/20111101-b-hylandw3ctpacegov-9979983 18:25:28 bhyland: is reusing much of her content from Warsaw 18:25:49 ... these slides more focused on w3c-related issues 18:26:02 ... no assumption that people have Linked Data background 18:26:18 Slide: "Why do we share" 18:26:51 ... Modern web is information center owned by noone 18:27:05 ... W3C is to be credited with this accomplishment 18:27:27 ... W3C process --- open forums, etc 18:27:52 +Kevin_Simkins 18:28:12 ... open govt data initiatives & partnerships have potential to do major good 18:28:27 matthewy has joined #egov 18:28:40 Slide: It;s a good thing to share... 18:28:54 Slide: "Sharing Worldwide" 18:29:25 ... sharing will xform how govts serve 18:29:35 Slide: Unclear how to get there 18:29:55 Slide: Ref's to several Linked Data books 18:30:06 ... evolutionary approach, won't get there overnight 18:30:23 ... knowledge of HOW mush be shared openly through publication 18:31:26 ... Def'n of Linked Data; essence is sharing data based on open int'l standards 18:31:36 ... predicated on 20-yr-old principals 18:31:47 s/pals/ples/ 18:33:37 Slide: Linking Govt Data (book): 42 contributors from 8 countries about real-world applications 18:33:42 ... peer-reviewed chapters 18:34:15 ... concept: if we have books out there, will ultimately influence policy 18:34:43 Slide: Springer site for Linking Govt Data book 18:35:02 Slide: TBL's 5 Star Rating (coffee cup) 18:35:20 karen has joined #egov 18:35:51 ... ref TBL's defn of 5 stars 18:36:33 ... discussion of purpose of W3C GLD WG: best practices for high-quality open govt data 18:37:09 ... examples of high-quality data 18:37:35 ... 4, 5-star linked data includes: science data, health data, environmental data 18:38:17 Slide: Funky BBC slide backed by RDF 18:38:56 ... Human-readable web page about mallard duck, supported by RDF 18:39:24 ... side comment: bhyland to supply URLs to books at end of talk 18:39:50 ... RDF on BBC mallard slide shown in Turtle 18:40:27 ... Note about slide: revolution in data sharing is happening inside enterprise as well as out 18:40:38 Slide: "We;ve seen this before" 18:40:50 ... human- vs machine-readable 18:41:02 ... credit-card example 18:41:30 Slide: Lots of logos...household names in USA, so. hemisphere, Europe 18:41:40 ... orgs that are sharing their data 18:42:21 ... special note: the companies that are typically cautious, slow moving, but are active 18:42:50 ... story of Dennis Misnoski (sp!) from DoD 18:43:06 ... story of wasted investment in data integration 18:43:43 s/Dennis Misnoski/Dennis Wisnosky 18:43:46 ... (DoD guy) has been featured at various recent semantic technology conference 18:44:14 Slide: "In 3 brief years" 18:44:38 ... Linked Data rollout timeline since 2008 18:45:38 ... Sep 2011, Obama & Brazil pres endorses "Open Govt Partnership" along with 7 other nations 18:45:58 ... total of nine govt's have published documents/statements 18:46:15 ... we are fortunate to have endorsement/support of heads-of-state 18:46:21 +bdhandspicker 18:46:29 Slide: 18:46:44 Slide: "What has a standard ever done for me?" 18:47:05 ... successes of W3C recommendations 18:47:24 ... have enabled the "sharing revolution" 18:47:39 ... consider the alternative: CLOSED 18:48:19 Francis Gurry, the Director General of the UN's World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO). 18:48:19 In Gurry's view, “the Web would have been better off if it had been locked away in patents, and if every user of the Web had needed to pay a license fee to use it.” 18:48:21 ... They are those "in high places" who would prefer the info environment be more closed 18:48:58 Slide: The LOD Cloud (Sep 2011) 18:49:11 ... Richard Cyganiak et.al. 18:49:21 ... the full-color version... 18:50:17 ... LOD cloud has more than 31B triples, millions of links 18:50:30 ... some do the linking better than others 18:50:45 ... Govts are ones who actually don't do a great job inter-linking 18:51:10 ... bhyland gives tour of the LOD cloud... 18:51:52 Slide: Open Govt Data Camp 18:52:28 ... map of world, showing highlights of attendance 18:52:37 Open Government Data Camp 2011 attendees: 41 countries (18%). 18:52:37 Source: http://ogdcamp.org/about/countries/ 18:52:38 ... 41 countries in attendance 18:52:48 ... mostly open data advocates 18:53:04 Slide: Open Govt Data *Sites* 18:53:14 ... flipping between slides 18:53:44 ... highlights the fact that OGC attendees focused on learning 18:54:34 bhyland asks karen to speak to role of eGov activity 18:54:48 karen: lots of support from TBL 18:55:04 PhilA: W3C very keen on the activity 18:55:24 bhyland: everyone should take satisfaction in knowing thta this is not an obscure activity 18:55:35 ... tip of the iceberg of what needs to be done 18:55:44 Slide: Govt LOD on CKAN 18:56:15 ... data published on ckan meeting standards for license, size, inter-linking 18:56:21 Government LOD published to CKAN.net, meeting LOD standards for license, size, interlinking, regardless of publisher: 28 countries (12%) 18:56:21 Government publishers: Remove Brazil. Note that EU publishes for Europe; UK publishes most. 18:56:21 Source: http://thedatahub.org/dataset 18:56:42 Slide: Largest Publisher of Govt LOD 18:56:51 ... UK govt should feel really good 18:58:01 ... comments on EU commission's funding levels over open initiatives over next 7-10 years 18:58:24 ... EU solves this problem in a "different way..." 18:59:06 Slide: Will LD cross the chasm? (image of cliffs along the ocean) 18:59:11 ... JSON not good enough 18:59:37 ... litany of criticisms that are no longer true 18:59:51 ... many tools available via open source 19:00:08 ... mention of Callimachus 19:00:28 ... racing to a future with increasingly more complex info 19:00:53 Slide: What is next, signs of things to come, structured data becoming mainstream 19:01:09 ... e.g. Schema.org partnership 19:01:17 Slide: W3G GLD WG 19:01:27 ... Runs through May 2013 19:01:42 ... 39 participants from 25 orgs 19:01:53 ...50% are *not* USA 19:02:03 ... ref> GLD charter URL 19:02:43 Slide: Screen shot of GLD charter 19:02:55 ... weekly calls 19:03:07 ... several f2f's throughout year 19:03:13 Slide: GLD Deliverables 19:03:20 ... Community Directory 19:03:25 ... Best Practices 19:04:02 -Sandro 19:04:22 ... big issue: understanding context about the data 19:04:39 ... context crucial to using the data 19:04:57 +Sandro 19:04:59 ... if licensing terms not clear, no professional org will want to touch it 19:05:29 ... licensing of "content" in USA different than e.g. in EU 19:05:31 rigo has joined #egov 19:05:55 ... GLD WG not dealing with licensing 19:06:05 ... CC has done remarkable job 19:06:23 ... UK has produced open govt license (exemplar) 19:06:59 sandro: reminder of Open Knowledge Foundation contribution 19:07:47 bhyland: Summary of OKFN role, W3C role 19:08:09 ... also in GLD charter: Cookbook for LOD 19:08:44 slide: Screen shot of Community Directory prototype (list of orgs) 19:08:54 ... intended to be open 19:09:01 ... to serve as clearinghouse 19:09:19 ... to act as a "hub" for orgs in business of publishing linked data 19:09:27 ... regardless of "star" ranking 19:09:51 ... goal is to have names, contact details, links to orgs providing services 19:10:25 http://www.w3.org/egov/directory/ 19:11:04 ... need for community to have place to grab stats on what's happening around the world 19:11:19 ... how many orgs of what type are doing what 19:11:29 ahaller2_ has joined #egov 19:11:44 ... Community Directory built on Callimachus platform 19:12:15 PhilA: Instance of Callimachus that 3roundstones hosting that W3C is pointing at 19:12:21 bhyland; yes 19:12:44 ... built on open source platform, using data in standard open format, etc 19:13:10 ... "lets all go in the same direction" 19:13:44 ... sharing of informaiton about who else is doing this stuff, where are they, what are they working on 19:13:47 -bdhandspicker 19:13:56 PhilA: Just orgs or individuals? 19:14:22 bhyland: yes, individual contributors, contractors, companies, W3C members or non-members 19:14:40 ... info must be "neutral" and objective 19:15:11 Slide: 3 Round Stones Inc directory page 19:15:25 ... illustration of entering info 19:15:44 ... CD in beta; now is the time to submit suggestions 19:16:03 ... extending to include events, etc 19:16:14 ... intent is not to have a complex application 19:16:38 ... email to gld public list with feedback 19:16:46 q? 19:16:46 q? 19:17:23 PhilA: (off minutes) 19:17:55 PhilA: is this sustainable by 3RoundStones? 19:18:01 bhyland: for now, yes 19:18:14 ... good test of callimachus 19:18:28 ... in line with business of their company 19:18:37 ... Also, open source project 19:19:59 sandro: point about WG taking over if for some reason 3RoundStones couldn't continue with CD 19:20:18 ... its in the WG charter 19:20:48 ... aside: Callimachus is a tool intended for Web 2.0 developers 19:21:08 ... HTML, CSS, javascript, a little Sparql 19:21:17 ... Slide: Statistics Page 19:21:48 ... shows integration of Google Viz api 19:22:05 ... other renderings easy 19:22:19 Slide: Screen shot of W3C PROV WG 19:22:35 ... data analytics requires knowledge of where data comes from 19:22:48 ... authenticity, trust, reproducability 19:22:59 Data analytics requires knowledge of where data came from. A standard for data provenance is on its way. 19:22:59 “Provenance provides a critical foundation for assessing authenticity, enabling trust, and allowing reproducibility. Provenance assertions are a form of contextual metadata and can themselves become important records with their own provenance.” - W3C Working Group 19:23:01 ... provenance provides content 19:23:15 s/content/context/ 19:23:40 ... W3c GLD WG is about pragmatic recommendations 19:24:18 Slide: bhyland contact details 19:24:29 Slide: creative Commons 19:25:04 bhyland: Questions? 19:26:01 Daniel (switzerland): Possible to share details numbers 19:26:17 bhyland will point to Dennis Wisnosky's talk 19:27:07 Beta: http://www.w3.org/egov/directory/ 19:27:07 email mailto:support@3roundstones.com for login to add your organization’s details 19:27:19 PhilA: keen to play with it 19:30:48 Looking at http://directory.3roundstones.net/rdf/directory/Organization/rensselaer+polytechnic+institute/tetherless+world+constellation/+linking+open+government+data+portal?view 19:31:24 wonders how to filter "quality" after the third star 19:31:40 olyerickson: somehow should eat the linked data dogfood more completely 19:32:04 PhilA: Will the URLs conneg to RDF? 19:32:11 bhyland: yes 19:32:19 jeanne: Other types of content> 19:32:58 ... recommendations of how to include contributors of e.g. 1-start providers? 19:33:23 bhyland: desire is to have threashold be low 19:33:49 ... desire is not to be a data catalog, rather an addressbook 19:34:18 ... e.g. conference organizer might use it to find speakers on particular topic 19:34:20 smiles 19:34:37 ... "address book on steroids" 19:34:47 ... who's doing what 19:35:05 ... consider this an open invitation 19:35:15 ... please provide feedback and suggestions 19:35:27 Public W3C GLD WG list: W3C public GLD WG WG 19:35:41 Chairs of GLD WG: GLD Chairs 19:36:38 GLD "chairs" list is for off-list issues/input to bhyland, george thomas, sandro 19:37:05 PhilA: interesting that it's using vcard for people 19:37:15 bhyland: easy to change 19:38:23 bhyland: thanks for opporunity to participate 19:38:35 TOPIC: Lunch 19:39:17 bhyland, yesterday, PhilA was telling us about this vocab, but pointing out how it was likely to end in .eu which would make much of the world unwilling to use it. 19:39:19 ... W3C eGov group is now in panic about eating 19:39:44 FWIW, I said there was a slide with links to the Linked Data books. I apparently removed the slide. Here are the links: 19:39:45 http://linkeddatabook.com/editions/1.0/ 19:39:45 http://3roundstones.com/linking-enterprise-data/ 19:39:45 http://3roundstones.com/linking-enterprise-data/ 19:39:45 http://www.linkeddatadeveloper.com/ 19:41:03 Agenda has been updated on the wiki 19:41:33 See http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4#Tuesday.2C_1_November_2011 19:41:39 Thanks all. 19:41:42 enjoy lunch. 19:41:46 thanks Bernadette 19:41:51 -bhyland 19:42:20 np. thank you for putting up presentation & being my assistant ;-) 19:43:53 St. Francis and Mr. Spock are eating already 19:45:30 -tpac 19:47:10 -Sandro 19:48:53 -Kevin_Simkins 19:48:55 SW_e-Gov(eGovIG)11:00AM has ended 19:48:57 Attendees were Kevin_Simkins, bhyland, Sandro, tpac, bdhandspicker 19:50:06 SW_e-Gov(eGovIG)11:00AM has now started 19:50:13 +bdhandspicker 19:50:39 -bdhandspicker 19:50:41 SW_e-Gov(eGovIG)11:00AM has ended 19:50:41 Attendees were bdhandspicker 20:27:03 HadleyBeeman has joined #egov 20:28:23 olyerickson has joined #egov 20:38:38 chsiao has joined #egov 20:51:33 tlr has joined #egov 20:53:32 rigo has joined #egov 20:53:39 hey Thomas, Rigo 20:53:52 Not quite sure when folks are coming back from lunch, 20:55:24 davemc has joined #egov 20:57:12 HadleyBeeman has joined #egov 20:59:37 rrsagent grep minutes 21:02:49 SW_e-Gov(eGovIG)11:00AM has now started 21:02:56 +bhyland 21:03:33 Hi all, what time are you starting up again? 21:04:46 matthewy has joined #egov 21:05:48 +tpac 21:05:51 -bhyland 21:05:52 +bhyland 21:06:16 zakim, who is here? 21:06:16 On the phone I see bhyland, tpac 21:06:16 zakim, who is on the call? 21:06:17 On IRC I see matthewy, HadleyBeeman, davemc, rigo, tlr, gdick, RRSAgent, Zakim, kevinsimkins, MacTed, bhyland, edsu, trackbot, sandro 21:06:20 On the phone I see bhyland, tpac 21:07:17 PhilA has joined #egov 21:07:28 +Sandro 21:08:01 Today are here http://www.w3.org/egov/IG/meeting/2011-11-01 21:08:16 yesterday http://www.w3.org/egov/IG/meeting/2011-10-31 21:08:28 davemc now scribing 21:08:55 we have now found notes from yesterday 21:09:00 Jeanne has joined #egov 21:09:10 Zakim, who is on the call? 21:09:10 On the phone I see bhyland, tpac, Sandro 21:09:27 Hadley will be in an out 21:09:41 resend: Today are here http://www.w3.org/egov/IG/meeting/2011-11-01 21:09:41 02:08 PhilA yesterday http://www.w3.org/egov/IG/meeting/2011-10-31 21:10:46 olyerickson has joined #egov 21:11:05 Jeanne hasn't heard back from Ann 21:11:19 Berndette also checking 21:11:52 bJeanne: back-up plan is to have her lead discussion in next session 21:12:05 s/bjeanne/Jeanne/ 21:12:58 Bernadette reports Anne will catch us at the next meeting 21:13:14 From Anne Fitzgerald: I agree that the licensing issues are increasingly relevant and I do think that our now quite extensive experience shows that this does work with significant parts of the public sector.  The adoption of the CC licences is far preferable to each country (or State within a country) developing its own specific licence - as has been happening in the UK and throughout Europe. 21:13:14 Let me know if I am off the hook.  If you think that is ok, please apologise but make it clear that I would like to talk to the group sometime soon. 21:13:26 Bernadette reports Anne's message 21:13:38 Links to the agenda are now on the wiki http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Main_Page#eGovernment_Interest_Group and the agenda links to the minutes (at the top of the page. Time zones mean that the minutes appear to span 3 days) 21:13:47 Jeanne: We will plan for Ann for next virtual meeting 21:14:51 PhilA: shows us a really cool trick for IRC scribing 21:15:51 +1 to Anne joining us next virtual meeting 21:16:22 Text for upcoming slide from Jeanne: What are the components that are necessary for an open government site? Discussion Think of a way to symbolize the important components Create those from Legos Bring them to the front to share Place them with others that are like them 21:16:38 ACTION: Jeanne to arrange Anne for next meeting 21:16:39 Created ACTION-121 - Arrange Anne for next meeting [on Jeanne Holm - due 2011-11-08]. 21:16:56 Jeanne: will send slides later 21:17:26 Jeanne: brainstorm sessions on creating an open gov site 21:18:02 Jeanne: what should/would/will/have we put into an open gov site 21:18:34 Jeanne: build whatever who think about 21:19:24 Jeanne: search for images that are symbolic to show in a web site, but no servers. Think all parts of the world 21:20:11 chsiao has joined #egov 21:20:52 Jeanne: 15 minutes of build, then symbology sharing 21:21:49 +Kevin_Simkins 21:21:57 Hi Kevin 21:24:13 hello 21:37:26 http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4 21:42:02 we have temp lost 2 of 4 members 21:42:11 and they are back 21:42:53 Post to the wiki or to the IRC the images 21:47:51 http://www.w3.org/People/Sandro/egov-images 21:48:26 davemc has joined #egov 21:48:34 sandro: Images show public spaces that have structure 21:49:28 Hacking and disparate data http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/File:IMG00210-20111101-1437.jpg 21:50:12 Sandro: these symbolize open gov. first were corridors and open ways to get places 21:50:33 sandro: second are parks that mix organic and structure 21:51:05 Jeanne: these are great. no hard corners 21:51:16 sandro: these seems right 21:52:40 Jeanne: uploaded image http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/File:IMG00210-20111101-1437.jpg 21:53:09 Jeanne: some incomplete. some dont connect. Discrete non-formatted data is operable 21:54:02 Jeanne: superhero model with flame. doing radical things may hurt/help the effort 21:54:17 Jeanne: hackers with good intentions but prolematic 21:54:46 Jeanne: collaborative model web. It is under development and cool 21:55:17 Jeanne: next is bird on alligator, different agendas different policies mixing 21:55:34 Jeanne: shield and spear to symbolize security needs 21:55:55 +bdhandspicker 21:56:08 Welcome Brian 21:57:03 PhilA: describing what we have been doing: building lego models and/or images that represent an open gov data portal should include 21:57:16 http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/File:IMG00211-20111101-1438.jpg 21:59:16 Jeanne: will mail Kevins file around due to slow upload 21:59:26 The history of Lego is worth noting … started in Denmark in 1916 in Denmark. By 1949 the Lego Group began producing similar bricks, calling them "Automatic Binding Bricks." Lego bricks, then manufactured from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose_acetate, were developed in the spirit of traditional wooden blocks that could be stacked upon one another but could be "locked" together. They had several round "studs" on top, and a hollow rectangular bottom. Th 21:59:44 In effect, a standard was born for interoperability. 22:00:22 In August 1988, 38 children from 17 different countries took part in the first Lego World Cup building contest, held in Billund. That same year, Lego Canada was established. 22:00:36 In fact, one could say that where Lego has been, the Web is going :-) 22:00:39 kevinsimkins: collaboration toolrooms. peer to peer, some 3d images 22:00:51 The above content from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lego 22:01:03 kevinsimkins: one pic hs colalboration, has models, vidoeo, messaging 22:02:41 brian: notes his data is often specific and personal. very specific needs to pull together 22:03:26 bhyland: congrats Brian on progress made by NY 22:03:48 brian: working on just getting stuff out of disparate database 22:04:47 bhyland: not all data is 4, 5 star, nor needs to be. 22:04:57 Brian: just working on getting 1 star 22:05:20 PhilA: sensitive info on kids? 22:05:43 Brian: works for child services. All types of services, all types of data 22:06:26 PhilA: interested in Brians use case 22:07:14 zakim, who is here? 22:07:17 On the phone I see bhyland, tpac, Sandro, Kevin_Simkins, bdhandspicker 22:07:18 On IRC I see davemc, chsiao, Jeanne, PhilA, matthewy, HadleyBeeman, rigo, tlr, gdick, RRSAgent, Zakim, kevinsimkins, bhyland, edsu, trackbot, sandro 22:08:00 http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/File:IMG00214-20111101-1440.jpg from Phil Archer 22:08:23 thinks send searchers to the PII namespace http://purl.org/pii/terms/ and let them run around 22:08:35 PhilA: very solid base. in terms of portal. needs strong platform 22:08:52 PhilA: corridor for good navigation, to lead to goal. 22:09:07 PhilA: but has paths to explore. 22:09:48 http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/File:IMG00216-20111101-1505.jpg from DaveMc 22:10:05 PhilA: there is a guide, apolitical guide, even in transition. headless to allow the user to lead 22:10:22 PhilA: lots of things that move to indicate apps 22:10:36 PhilA: also offers video, multimedia 22:10:44 http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/File:IMG00215-20111101-1503.jpg from John Erickson 22:10:54 PhilA: prize for sustainable cool outcome 22:11:10 PhilA: transparent 22:11:37 PhilA missing piece is a the tower of blocks to represent the linked data can bring to the world 22:11:59 q+ I have some lego pics uploaded ... 22:12:14 john: looks like a factory, combo of different people 22:12:38 john: one is robotic, industrial strength linked data 22:13:14 john: has targets, automated conversion. web and spiders to find/provide data 22:13:51 john: guided conversion from the Wizard. the semantification of the content 22:14:19 john: automation workflow semantic to automated via guided models 22:14:40 john: last guy represents quality control. however it is done 22:14:51 olyerickson: It takes careful consideration to "semantify" content. Edward Scissorhands doing automated semantication… but quality control is necessary. In RPI's experience, they do unit testing. 22:15:13 olyerickson: "It's not magic. It takes time to do it right." 22:15:16 john: doing LD right is not magic, just takes time to do in production 22:15:22 -bdhandspicker 22:15:37 gdick1 has joined #eGov 22:15:48 davemc: Mine is small. We have to deliver on any environment 22:15:56 ... lots of elements built on what we have now 22:16:09 ... there's a bridge between IT and the people 22:16:19 no image to go with this commentary? 22:16:23 ... there are steps and ramps. It has to be built bit by bit 22:17:04 davemc: http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/File:IMG00216-20111101-1505.jpg 22:17:20 davemc: inter connected is OK but we need guidance 22:17:38 ... quite often we need to translate. The language we speak is understood by no one 22:17:49 +sandro.a 22:17:58 ... last guy is a geek. He has a tie and a propeller on his head. Someone has to actually do the work 22:18:20 ... last element is a remote arm that goes off and fetches things from wherever - unstructured 22:18:26 got it. I will note with my GLD WG hat on … this is not 4 star linked data … nothing links to it, not even the wiki home page :-( "No pages link to http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/File:IMG00216-20111101-1505.jpg. 22:18:26 " 22:18:39 Jeanne: I forgot a piece with multiple flags to represent internationalisation 22:18:45 Frank has joined #egov 22:18:58 Lego has been used as a metaphor in presentations by several prominent advocates of semantic technology. 22:18:59 Lego is a beautiful example of infinite interoperability because it is based on a standard interface. 22:18:59 Some examples from my basement created by my son who turns 14 years old today. 22:19:01 http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/File:AMH_Lego_castle_and_town.jpg 22:19:05 http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/File:AMH_Lego_turret.jpg 22:19:09 http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/File:AMH_Lego_mixed_food_table.jpg 22:20:31 -Sandro 22:20:59 bhyland describing lego pics created by her son 22:21:36 bhyland: "if everybody cooperates and shoots in the same direction, it's an unstoppable force" bhyland son 22:21:58 bhyland: mixed date interoperable: unending lego sets intermixed 22:22:53 bhyland: as long as the pieces are all the same interop, they all fit together. There are similarities to open data 22:23:35 bhyland : humble URI == legos 22:23:54 Impressed by Bernadette analogies, her son's amazing Lego skills, and the cleanliness of her home! 22:24:05 bhyland: lego world competition == hackathon 22:24:22 bhyland where lego has been, the web is going 22:25:27 john: lego is investing in community, and following community. fostering open source via Mindstorm. LD needs to grow and foster community 22:25:30 s/humble URI == legos/humble URI == lego "Automatic Binding Bricks" and tight tolerance to get the famously satisfying "click" sound. 22:26:45 john: if lego was just separate things. it wouldn't be as cool. Fitting it together things new ways is to cool stuff 22:27:26 john: building communities are important to Lego. Communities evangelize the world and make it grow. GLD needs similar 22:27:30 olyerickson: If all Lego was a bunch of special interest components, it wouldn't have penetrated the imagination of children & adults globally (I paraphrase). In the Gov't Linked Data world, it is important to capture the imagination (evangelize). 22:28:07 Jeanne: appreciates the willingness to approach things differently. (applause) 22:28:12 Questionnaire is to share facts and figures, insights and lessons learned between open data portal managers 22:28:26 Questionnaire https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dGVwNXM3T3FxRzRrN3cyRTFaaURYblE6MQ 22:28:49 Jeanne: posting to the wiki; the open data portal mgmt questionnaire 22:29:08 Jeanne: survey into state of practice 22:29:48 Jeanne: response will help give us real-world data. 22:30:12 Jeanne: questionnaire is still work in progress, but finalizing soon 22:30:58 john: where will it go? 22:31:26 Jeanne: lots of places. organic growth and spread. 22:31:43 Jeanne education and outreach is next, after 5 minute break 22:32:09 gdick1 has left #eGov 22:32:31 For next discussion on Education and Outreach... 22:32:32 What are the best no-cost/low-cost ways to: 22:32:40 Initiate government and public interest in an open data site? 22:32:46 nerate interest in an existing open data site? 22:32:52 Generate interest in an existing open data site? 22:32:58 Engage with developers? 22:33:05 Communicate to the public about open data? 22:33:10 Find and identify apps and uses of open data? 22:33:45 +bdhandspicker 22:41:16 Li Ding worked as a research scientist at RPI and asked that we let people know about http://tw.rpi.edu/ogk2011 22:42:04 scribe: Phila 22:42:14 Topic: Education & Outreach 22:42:25 Social Business Jam at W3C next week: http://www.w3.org/2011/socialbusiness-jam/ 22:42:58 John: I wanted to revisit what I showed yesterday... how to convert and publish gov data as LD 22:43:23 ... we've been serving as an educators doing mashathons in DC etc. 22:43:45 ... also make sure that our portal is an education instrument unto itself 22:43:55 ... we have a variety of tutorials and demos 22:44:00 ... cross linked to tutorials 22:44:14 ... lots of examples of queries one could use against our SPARQL endpoint 22:44:38 ... trying to show the kind of examples that the community needs 22:44:52 pointer from John is http://logd.tw.rpi.edu/ 22:45:28 John: At this point - yes we need tools to reach different stakeholder 22:45:34 ... yes we need professionals doing gthe work 22:45:40 ... we need the eductaional materials 22:45:53 ... the books that Dave Wood and co have produced are good of course 22:46:04 ... we need thing that people can tweak and break etc 22:46:18 ... need to provide the resources that people can use as templates and apply 22:46:26 ... also have to get out and do the evangelism still 22:46:54 olyerickson has joined #egov 22:46:56 ... I want to put our example out there and then talk about other examples that we know about 22:47:12 ... there are LD camps, hackathons, meetups etc 22:47:19 can we make a laundry list of things we need 22:47:35 betehess has joined #egov 22:47:50 olyerickson: as part of our efforts we've been asked to potentially go abroad next year to help 'a country' bootstrap its work 22:47:57 betehess has left #egov 22:48:07 ... there's an intersection between a govt and pro players and the educational community 22:48:21 ... it's about this pub/priv partnership 22:48:26 +1 to comment on public-private partnership 22:48:52 PhilA: can offer some perspectives on that 22:49:04 PhilA: Can I draw your attention tohttp://w3techcourses.com/ 22:49:10 PhilA: Can I draw your attention to http://w3techcourses.com/ 22:49:58 zakim, who is here? 22:49:58 On the phone I see bhyland, tpac, Kevin_Simkins, Sandro, bdhandspicker 22:49:59 On IRC I see olyerickson, davemc, chsiao, Jeanne, PhilA, rigo, RRSAgent, Zakim, kevinsimkins, bhyland, edsu, trackbot, sandro 22:52:12 http://www.w3techcourses.com/course/view.php?id=6 22:52:47 PhilA showing example of w3c mobile web course 22:52:56 PhilA: talking about online courses 22:57:55 PhilA: do we want a GLD type course 22:58:12 bhyland: probably (longer discussions) 22:58:59 olyerickson: we need easier access, the burden must not be harder than blogging, and data similar 22:59:09 olyerickson: cn't require a server 22:59:56 bhyland: we agree. must be as easy as blogging. requires push up for data or app 23:00:36 olyerickson: advice given to undergrads that they steer to blogging sites that allow mash ups 23:00:58 PhilA: this is a deeper off line conversation 23:02:16 PhilA: lots of online courses, but has great item is the discussion forums. The question students ask is how to keep the connections alive 23:02:56 PhilA: discussing course items. Big item is how do we keep the community alive 23:04:03 -bdhandspicker 23:04:14 olyerickson: hackathons similarly need preservation of artifacts. how do we preserve the unique builds? 23:05:10 PhilA: amazing how many web devs have no web presence 23:05:55 HadleyBeeman has joined #egov 23:06:17 davemc: setting up a forum is a piece of cake 23:06:33 davemc: if you want a space to stor/share code - ask github 23:07:09 davemc: same thing in real world classes - you need somewhere to build the community 23:08:06 olyerickson: including a doscussion with the project is important as that itseld becomes educational 23:08:23 olyerickson: hosting cool javascript apps is easy cf. linked data hosting 23:10:01 olyerickson: what I don't want to lose touch with is all the aother stuff like the community directory that bhyland was showing us 23:10:11 ... we need a livign breathing hub of the community 23:10:28 ... needs instructors, experts of licensing etc. 23:10:42 davemc: that's a status achievement model 23:11:00 q+ 23:11:03 ... you get the licensing guru, the SPARQL guru etc 23:11:30 davemc: Look at ADC. Something like 6 million members. But is' not open 23:11:40 ... it's where you go to reach the people 23:11:57 ... dunno what the modern version of slashdot it 23:12:17 ... we have about 3 people who run the 6 million community of 6 million 23:12:26 ack olyerickson 23:12:41 olyerickson: you need to have someone that is fired if the community doesn't form 23:13:02 davemc: Adobe always have evangelists who see themselves as members of the community 23:13:26 Stage 3D, previously codenamed "Molehill," is a new method/model of 2D and 3D rendering developed by Adobe and supported with a new Stage3D API—a set of low-level GPU-accelerated APIs enabling advanced 2D and 3D capabilities across multiple screens and devices 23:13:27 Slides for upcoming discussion: http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/File:W3C_eGov_3.pptx 23:13:30 olyerickson: We've all been part of this LD discussion. It's a noisy and unreliable source 23:13:48 olyerickson: it's not a great way to get a problem solves, especially if you're a newbie 23:13:56 tlr has joined #egov 23:14:30 These Adobe driven APIs provide advanced 2D and 3D developers with the flexibility to leverage GPU hardware acceleration for significant performance gains. 23:14:45 davemc: need to know the problem we're trying to solve 23:15:24 bhyland: the value proposition is that developers can readily merge datasets from multiple datasets 23:15:33 davemc: that's the solution. What's the problem 23:15:59 ACTION: Jeanne to invite data journalists to the group 23:15:59 Created ACTION-122 - Invite data journalists to the group [on Jeanne Holm - due 2011-11-08]. 23:16:05 bhyland: well the problem is if the data is in different formats with no common key etc. if you work with properly modelled datasets you can take datasets and merge them 23:16:20 davemc: again, that's a solution... 23:16:47 davemc: Apple says I want to build a really cool music player 23:16:56 ... Ives says it mustn't have more than 4 buttons 23:17:47 bhyland: I'd say that as a dev being able to merge the data is a solution to a real problem 23:18:10 davemc: I need problems like why do I even need to merge the data. What's the app 23:18:45 Hadley--we are just ready to start that. Joining us? 23:18:55 Yep, I"m on my way. 23:19:08 bhyland: So here's the problem. A senator wrote to several agencies asking them to get together so they could find out why there appeared to be a helth issue around a brownfield site 23:19:25 davemc: that's a real problem 23:20:01 bhyland: I think there are many real world problems that can be solved more easily given the availability of the data in a common format 23:20:28 olyerickson: The kind of problem that outreach needs to master is... 23:20:47 ... imagine a very agile developer, such as Matthew Bloch of the NYTimes 23:21:05 HadleyBeeman has joined #egov 23:21:11 ... he's one of a small team of contract developers that uses a variety of gov data but they don't use LD 23:21:33 ... we could probably help people like that 23:22:39 Jeanne: can we reach a conclusion? 23:22:55 olyerickson: This has been good. Training is interesting 23:23:29 ... we need to move forward. See how we can get the tutorials re-purposed. How can we leverage those. 23:23:50 ... secondly, there's an issue of resources. LD needs hosting of data 23:24:03 ... poss hosting of applications, in browser tricks 23:24:04 Also see some of the education pieces we are pulling together for at Data.gov: http://www.data.gov/story/datagov-in-the-classroom 23:24:46 ... thirdly, the value of the Mobile Web course is the forum ..> the persistence of artefacts etc 23:25:06 Jeanne: showing page from data.gov 23:25:16 ... I'm not just thinking of formal education 23:25:29 ... page shows universities using data.gov, exemplars etc. 23:25:50 ... I was talking to a uni whose students are doing mashups on data.gov this week 23:26:39 ... we've tried to put some pieces together. Working with agencies that do outreach 23:27:17 I recorded the memorable open gov't portal exercise, see http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4-Lego-Modeling 23:27:44 Jeanne: One thing to cover that has come up here and before - use cases x 3 23:27:45 I just couldn't leave those priceless comments & Lego configurations without *linking* to them :-) 23:28:16 Jeanne: we may leverage the directory... if there were artifacts and use cases, can we include them in the directory? 23:28:32 bhyland: I think we could do that and it's a great suggestion 23:28:44 ... we don't want people to blather on about how wonderful they are 23:28:54 ... we may link to places where they can say how cool ehty are 23:29:13 ... being able to sort use cases based on the facet function 23:30:31 -bhyland 23:30:35 zakim, who is here? 23:30:35 On the phone I see tpac, Kevin_Simkins, Sandro 23:30:36 On IRC I see HadleyBeeman, tlr, olyerickson, davemc, Jeanne, PhilA, rigo, RRSAgent, Zakim, kevinsimkins, bhyland, edsu, trackbot, sandro 23:31:04 olyerickson: I think we've addressed the E&O issue 23:31:43 olyerickson: what is the awareness of data among people? 23:32:06 davemc: people make mashups all the time 23:32:33 ... can we describe the possibility of using data so that data awareness follows (not sure I captured that properly) 23:33:01 Jeanne: If I'm Proctor & Gamble and I describe a product, I may only want to target investors etc. 23:33:30 ... as governments, we have a responsibility to make our data accessible and help them to use it 23:33:40 ... governments are different 23:33:54 ... budgets etc. mean we need to be careful about what expectations we set 23:34:50 olyerickson: targeting developers is like targeting HTML developers. WE need to give people that have something to say with data the tools to do it 23:35:14 ... David Schute (?) has an almost pedagogical approach 23:35:30 matthewy has joined #egov 23:35:42 ... we should perhaps try and reach people like bloggers who wante to say something 23:36:05 ... most people couldn't care less how it works 23:36:06 The portal I mentioned: http://www.datamasher.org/ 23:36:20 HadleyBeeman: If we do our job properly, the rest of the world doesn't need to know we're here 23:36:32 The professor at Temple Univ (Fox Business School): David Schutt 23:36:38 Topic: Planning for next year 23:37:25 Jeanne: summarises the CARDS, shows thoughts of the keynote speakers from Warsaw 23:37:53 chsiao has joined #egov 23:38:53 Jeanne: These slides are on the wiki (I can't find the link...) 23:39:26 ... and the slides are a good summary of what Jeanne is saying of course 23:39:31 Correction: David Schuff 23:39:31 Course: http://community.mis.temple.edu/mis5101sec401f11/ 23:41:03 Jeanne: Cards and Actions #1 use cases 23:41:11 HadleyBeeman: we have some sub-categories there 23:41:38 ... if we structure it properly then our wiki can be an easy way for people to add thoughts as they occur 23:42:00 HadleyBeeman: we could have a hashtag for Twitter and then aggregate them 23:42:14 olyerickson: I'd like to hear more from the people that aren't here 23:42:31 HadleyBeeman: we have hundreds on the mailing list but few here 23:42:39 ... so there's more interest 23:42:51 ... we need to try and focus our efforts to engage more of the community we have 23:43:32 olyerickson: I'd like to figure out how to get input from the various governments that are represented in the 90 or so catalogues that we know about (CTIC has a similar number) 23:43:41 ... ,ost of them only publish 1 start data 23:44:04 s/,ost/most/ 23:44:21 Jeanne: I know the names of the people whose works we show on data.gov 23:45:36 Jeanne: My suggestion is that we have a task for the team, figuring out a recommendation for how to approach this. 23:46:10 ... ie. work out how to gather and encourage the creation of use cases 23:46:50 ACTION: Jeanne to Convene a small team to develop an immediate and long term mechanism for collection use cases 23:46:51 Created ACTION-123 - Convene a small team to develop an immediate and long term mechanism for collection use cases [on Jeanne Holm - due 2011-11-08]. 23:47:36 HadleyBeeman: Long term I think we'll need to work out how to deliver those use cases back to the governments and others 23:48:23 HadleyBeeman: specifiically, in which conversations they'll be useful. 23:48:28 olyerickson: We got policies there, I was thinking of impediments. The barriers that practitioners face. Policies are one example but there might be tech barriers or barriers to understanding. These are the kind of theing that E&O can address 23:48:58 davemc: resources, knowledge base etc. 23:50:07 olyerickson: Giving people the ability to make progress 23:50:22 ... we don't have a set of best practices around dcat 23:50:38 ... there's nothing to show governments around the world how to do it 23:51:19 HadleyBeeman: Each of the differnet groups that we talk to needa a different story 23:51:27 ... sometimes it's about the tools 23:51:35 ... other times it's about democracy etc. 23:52:11 Jeanne: one of the things could be a way to ask a question to whaich the answer is a use case 23:52:25 davemc: It comes back to what do the end users want. What can they do with it 23:52:38 HadleyBeeman: we're not responding to market demand. We're creating it 23:52:54 davemc: Who are we selling to? 23:55:50 Action: HadleyBeeman Create a way of organizing and analyzing use case content to take back to governments and other stakeholders by 2012-01-15 23:55:50 Sorry, couldn't find user - HadleyBeeman 23:56:10 Action: Beeman Create a way of organizing and analyzing use case content to take back to governments and other stakeholders by 2012-01-15 23:56:11 Created ACTION-124 - Create a way of organizing and analyzing use case content to take back to governments and other stakeholders by 2012-01-15 [on Hadley Beeman - due 2011-11-08]. 23:57:03 TOPIC: CARDS and ACTIONS on Social Media 23:59:57 olyerickson: If the 'W3C kit' card was mine (probably was) . W3C has huge kit of recommendations. We don't have a way to assess quality yet. Same issue arises in eScience 23:59:59 zakim, who is here? 23:59:59 On the phone I see tpac, Kevin_Simkins, Sandro