IRC log of ua on 2011-10-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:53:03 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:53:03 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-irc
16:53:05 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:53:05 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:53:07 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:53:07 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
16:53:08 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:53:08 [trackbot]
Date: 27 October 2011
16:57:19 [JAllan]
JAllan has joined #ua
16:57:30 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:57:37 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
16:57:40 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
16:57:40 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
16:57:57 [kford]
Agenda+ Review F2F Agenda
16:57:58 [kford]
Agenda+ Review Survey for this week -- coming soon, Wayne Dick and Kim
16:58:00 [kford]
Patch Proposals
16:58:02 [kford]
Agenda+ Review Survey for Oct 6 -
16:58:04 [kford]
Agenda+ http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110929/
16:58:06 [kford]
Agenda+ Review Survey for Sept 22
16:58:08 [kford]
Agenda+ http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110921/
16:58:10 [kford]
Agenda+ review comments -
16:58:12 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JulSep/0010.html
16:58:40 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html kford
16:59:00 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:59:06 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
16:59:06 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
17:00:15 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
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+Jeanne
17:01:35 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
17:01:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jim_Allan, kford, Jeanne
17:01:36 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jeanne, JAllan, Zakim, RRSAgent, kford, trackbot
17:02:35 [JAllan]
regrets+ JanR
17:05:00 [Zakim]
+Greg_Lowney
17:05:02 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:05:28 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
17:06:31 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:07:50 [JAllan]
regrets+ MarkH, SimonH
17:09:59 [kford]
scribe: kford
17:10:32 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has joined #ua
17:11:23 [JAllan]
TPAC Greg leaving 5pm, kelly, kim, Mark leaving Friday. Jan, Jim, Jeanne leaving Sat
17:11:36 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:11:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html kford
17:11:42 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:11:42 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
17:11:44 [Zakim]
1. Review F2F Agenda [from kford]
17:11:45 [Zakim]
2. Review Survey for this week -- coming soon, Wayne Dick and Kim [from kford]
17:11:48 [Zakim]
3. Review Survey for Oct 6 - [from kford]
17:11:49 [Zakim]
4. http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110929/ [from kford]
17:11:50 [Zakim]
5. Review Survey for Sept 22 [from kford]
17:11:51 [Zakim]
6. http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110921/ [from kford]
17:11:52 [Zakim]
7. review comments - [from kford]
17:13:38 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
17:13:38 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Review F2F Agenda" taken up [from kford]
17:15:35 [kford]
Group talking about Kim's unconference proposal.
17:16:18 [Zakim]
+Mark_Hakkinen
17:16:32 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0027.html
17:16:53 [mhakkinen]
irc and listening only... in a trainstation.
17:17:54 [kford]
Kim: Please see my e-mail and if you have thoughts, please shoot me an e-mail.
17:18:15 [kford]
Kim: My goal is to raise the questions have have people in the room come up with thoughts/answers.
17:18:50 [mhakkinen]
cool!
17:19:25 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/2011/pas/wcag2-er4.htm
17:19:52 [jeanne]
WCAG 2.0 just submitted as a ISO standard.
17:20:30 [kford]
JA: Agenda 1 is to look at the F2F agenda.
17:20:43 [JAllan]
9 -9:15 logistics
17:20:44 [JAllan]
9:15-10:30 writing
17:20:46 [JAllan]
10:30-10:45 break
17:20:48 [JAllan]
10:45 - 11:15 review
17:20:49 [JAllan]
11:15 - 12:00 open issues
17:20:51 [JAllan]
12-1 lunch
17:20:53 [JAllan]
1-2:15 writing
17:20:54 [JAllan]
2:15 - 2:30 break
17:20:56 [JAllan]
2:30 - 3 review
17:20:57 [JAllan]
3:00 - 4:15 writing
17:20:59 [JAllan]
4:15-5:00 review
17:21:00 [JAllan]
Friday
17:21:02 [JAllan]
8:45 - 9:15 min document reality check
17:21:04 [JAllan]
9:15-10:30 writing
17:21:05 [JAllan]
10:30-10:45 break
17:21:07 [JAllan]
10:45 - 11:15 review
17:21:08 [JAllan]
11:15 - 12:00 open issues/editor comments
17:21:10 [JAllan]
12-1 lunch
17:21:12 [JAllan]
1-2:15 writing
17:21:13 [JAllan]
2:15 - 2:30 break
17:21:15 [JAllan]
2:30 - 3 review
17:21:16 [JAllan]
3:00 - 4:15 writing
17:21:18 [JAllan]
4:15-5:00 review
17:21:54 [mhakkinen]
+q
17:22:27 [mhakkinen]
is anyone attending the 3d in HTML5 meeting on Tuesday?
17:22:37 [kford]
Not me.
17:22:48 [JAllan]
not me
17:22:48 [mhakkinen]
sounds like it will be interesting
17:23:04 [jeanne]
Not me, I think we are all arriving on Tuesday or Wed morning
17:23:08 [kford]
Are you attending Mark?
17:23:20 [mhakkinen]
no... but now I wish I had
17:23:33 [mhakkinen]
I can hear you guys okay.
17:24:09 [mhakkinen]
either is fine with me.
17:24:11 [JAllan]
all agree start at 8:30
17:24:23 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
17:24:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jim_Allan, kford, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Kim_Patch, Mark_Hakkinen
17:24:26 [Zakim]
On IRC I see mhakkinen, KimPatch, Greg, jeanne, JAllan, Zakim, RRSAgent, kford, trackbot
17:24:33 [mhakkinen]
+1 to greg!
17:24:45 [kford]
JA: We will start at 8:30A then.
17:25:27 [kford]
JA: We plan to do mostly writing. We need a lot of resources, some editor comments and only 6 or 7 IERs.
17:25:32 [JAllan]
new editors draft: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20111020/
17:26:39 [JAllan]
open issues: kelly will review before the meeting and pare down the list.
17:26:57 [JAllan]
will be "pre-selected open issues"
17:28:13 [kford]
Open issues in agenda should be pre-selected open issues
17:28:13 [jeanne]
remove "min" in document reality check
17:30:09 [JAllan]
all - please review actions/issues - write - bring to meeting
17:30:09 [mhakkinen]
i think the breakfast at the Avatar is free to guests
17:30:47 [mhakkinen]
free airport shuttle, too
17:31:14 [kford]
zakim, close item 1
17:31:14 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, kford
17:31:29 [JAllan]
ack
17:31:37 [kford]
q?
17:31:42 [mhakkinen]
ack
17:31:42 [jeanne]
ack m
17:31:53 [kford]
zakim, closwe item 1
17:31:53 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'closwe item 1', kford
17:31:58 [kford]
zakim, close item 1
17:31:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Review F2F Agenda, closed
17:31:59 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:32:00 [Zakim]
2. Review Survey for this week -- coming soon, Wayne Dick and Kim [from kford]
17:32:10 [kford]
zakim, take up item 2
17:32:10 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Review Survey for this week -- coming soon, Wayne Dick and Kim" taken up [from kford]
17:32:50 [JAllan]
topic: X.X Navigation marks
17:33:37 [mhakkinen]
+1 to needs discussion
17:33:51 [kford]
JA reviewing Mark's questions.
17:34:36 [JAllan]
survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111026/results
17:34:58 [mhakkinen]
HJ lost to Gwmicro
17:35:01 [JAllan]
kf: screen readers have this feature
17:35:21 [JAllan]
the concept is there
17:36:10 [JAllan]
gl: similar to bookmarks. but they only work with URLs
17:36:38 [JAllan]
KP: x/y is more granular, any arbitrary place on a page
17:36:50 [mhakkinen]
would probably need xpath to define mark
17:37:38 [mhakkinen]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath/
17:37:49 [JAllan]
gl: xpath = route through the dom to a node?
17:38:59 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:39:21 [mhakkinen]
I have to drop off... my train is coming. there should be wifi on it so I should be back on in about 10 mins
17:39:29 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:39:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html kford
17:40:04 [kford]
Discussion about how specific the desired marking would be.
17:40:15 [kford]
KP: I think you want the specific words.
17:40:29 [Zakim]
-Mark_Hakkinen
17:40:39 [kford]
GL: Sometimes you want the heading, sometimes the words. It can change.
17:44:09 [JAllan]
this seems to be part of maintaining the point of regard / cursor location when scaling page (which are several of the examples), that is creating an arbitrary PoR for navigation
17:45:30 [kford]
KP: Mark and Greg both talk about specifics that I see as more implementing details.
17:45:43 [JAllan]
kf: Kim can you review the comments and make a new proposal
17:46:53 [kford]
GL: I think youneed to be more specific or else you run the risk of people doing this to meet a checkbox and not something people can use.
17:47:01 [JAllan]
gl: what are minimum features that will make this useful.
17:47:23 [JAllan]
kp: a) the current view port position independent of focus location - is valid
17:48:46 [mhakkinen]
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17:49:44 [kford]
Group talking through GL comments in survey.
17:50:45 [kford]
JA: I think we need two separate SC. We need to say that if you scale the page the point of regard needs to remain static.
17:53:13 [kford]
JA: My focus location could be different from a browse location and others depending on features enabled.
17:54:35 [kford]
GL: If I was going to do this, I'd take these locations into account but hide it from the user.
17:54:36 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:55:11 [JAllan]
action: jallan to propose SC on maintaining point of regard when scaling the page
17:55:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-630 - Propose SC on maintaining point of regard when scaling the page [on Jim Allan - due 2011-11-03].
17:56:35 [jeanne]
selection, insertion point, point of regard, search result
17:56:38 [kford]
KP: Locations need to be factored in this order:
17:57:24 [JAllan]
item to put in the intent: point of regard (the thing that changed most recently), selection (search), insertion point/caret, focus location,
17:58:35 [Greg]
I'm thinking the point of regard is either the selection (perhaps favoring the active end of the selection), the caret location, search results, or the portion of content visible in the viewport, whichever changed most recently.
17:59:04 [JAllan]
kf: need to keep the SC simple. expand info in the Intent
17:59:30 [Greg]
In general, the SC should be prescriptive enough to ensure it's useful, but no more so, and additional guidance can be in the Implementing document.
18:01:41 [JAllan]
discussion using for SC: The user can mark locations in a webpage and then navigate back to the marked locations using keyboard shortcuts.
18:02:01 [Greg]
Discussion of the big issue of how to handle devices that lack modifier keys; many SC are written assuming them.
18:02:22 [JAllan]
kf: perhaps use "method appropriate for the platform" instead of keyboard shortcuts.
18:02:40 [kford]
Issue: UAAG needs to address situation where keyboard shortcuts really means navigaiton mechanism.
18:02:40 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-90 - UAAG needs to address situation where keyboard shortcuts really means navigaiton mechanism. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/90/edit .
18:03:23 [JAllan]
kp: for UAWG 'keyboard shortcuts' generally means 'mechanism appropriate to the platform'
18:03:55 [Greg]
I'd only split into multiple SC if one isn't only about the other or if they have difference priorities.
18:06:12 [kford]
Group continuing to talk about location and what we mean to get back.
18:07:24 [Greg]
Are there two implementations among UA?
18:08:16 [JAllan]
in the resources list screen readers as providing this feature. GL concerned about implementions and menu items.
18:10:07 [JAllan]
X.X Navigation marks
18:10:08 [JAllan]
The user can mark locations in a webpage and then navigate back to the marked items using keyboard shortcuts. The user can specify whether a navigation mark disappears after a session or is persistent across sessions.
18:10:36 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has joined #ua
18:10:59 [JAllan]
The user can mark items in a webpage and then navigate back to the marked items using keyboard shortcuts. The user can specify whether a navigation mark disappears after a session or is persistent across sessions.
18:11:20 [KimPatch]
Action item: Kim to flesh out intent of X.X navigation marks
18:11:20 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - item
18:11:39 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to add new SC with text above to 1.8 "The user can mark items in a webpage and then navigate back to the marked items using keyboard shortcuts. The user can specify whether a navigation mark disappears after a session or is persistent across sessions. "
18:11:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-631 - Add new SC with text above to 1.8 "The user can mark items in a webpage and then navigate back to the marked items using keyboard shortcuts. The user can specify whether a navigation mark disappears after a session or is persistent across sessions. " [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-11-03].
18:11:50 [JAllan]
Action: Kim to flesh out intent of X.X navigation marks
18:12:15 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:12:18 [kford]
zakim, close item 1
18:12:18 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Review F2F Agenda, closed
18:12:19 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:12:20 [Zakim]
2. Review Survey for this week -- coming soon, Wayne Dick and Kim [from kford]
18:12:36 [JAllan]
topic: 1.4.1 configure text
18:12:53 [kford]
Now looking at configure text.
18:15:52 [Greg]
As I mentioned for other questions later on, this might be apply to SVG, etc.
18:16:02 [Greg]
s/be/not/
18:16:24 [Greg]
That's a general concern for all the text configuration SC.
18:17:00 [JAllan]
action: Jeanne add (d) line spacing, and (e) character spacing to 1.4.1
18:17:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-632 - Add (d) line spacing, and (e) character spacing to 1.4.1 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-11-03].
18:20:12 [JAllan]
greg suggests "The user can globally set any or all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content, overriding any specified by the author or user agent defaults:
18:21:17 [Greg]
This is to ensure that a user with color vision deficiencies can override colors without losing author sizes, a person with low vision can override sizes without affecting colors, etc.
18:21:22 [JAllan]
action: jeanne to change the wording of 1.4.1 to be - The user can globally set any or all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content, overriding any specified by the author or user agent defaults:
18:21:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-633 - change the wording of 1.4.1 to be - The user can globally set any or all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content, overriding any specified by the author or user agent defaults: [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-11-03].
18:22:59 [JAllan]
topic: 1.4.2 preserve size destinctions
18:23:49 [JAllan]
jan: Sounds like it should be a new SC rather than overloading this one
18:24:42 [Greg]
He's suggesting wording to ensure that the user can specify for example that h1 should instead of larger should be a different color/size/border. Don't user style sheets provide this?
18:25:35 [JAllan]
+1 to greg
18:26:18 [JAllan]
this is getting close to having a checkbox interface for creating a user css
18:26:20 [Greg]
We're agreeing to reject the proposed change for now, but if Wayne, Kim, or others want to come back to try making a stronger case for it that would be fine.
18:27:13 [Greg]
Perhaps he's saying that the user should have the ability to specify style sheets that would be applied selectively and automatically based on changes to zoom level?
18:27:34 [JAllan]
I have never seen a browser not change size destinctions when I zoom/scale a page
18:28:16 [JAllan]
action: jallan to write wayne about rejecting addition to 1.4.2
18:28:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-634 - Write wayne about rejecting addition to 1.4.2 [on Jim Allan - due 2011-11-03].
18:33:49 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
18:33:56 [Zakim]
-Greg_Lowney
18:38:26 [Zakim]
-kford
18:38:29 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
18:38:30 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:38:31 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jim_Allan, kford, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Kim_Patch, Mark_Hakkinen
18:38:46 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:38:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html kford
18:39:44 [kford]
Chair: Jim_Allan_Kelly_Ford
18:39:53 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:39:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html kford
19:10:11 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:10:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html kford
19:20:32 [kford]
zakim, please part
19:20:32 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:20:44 [kford]
rrsagent, please part
19:20:44 [RRSAgent]
I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-actions.rdf :
19:20:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jallan to propose SC on maintaining point of regard when scaling the page [1]
19:20:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-irc#T17-55-11
19:20:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: item to Kim to flesh out intent of X.X navigation marks [2]
19:20:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-irc#T18-11-20
19:20:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add new SC with text above to 1.8 "The user can mark items in a webpage and then navigate back to the marked items using keyboard shortcuts. The user can specify whether a navigation mark disappears after a session or is persistent across sessions. " [3]
19:20:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-irc#T18-11-39
19:20:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Kim to flesh out intent of X.X navigation marks [4]
19:20:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-irc#T18-11-50
19:20:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne add (d) line spacing, and (e) character spacing to 1.4.1 [5]
19:20:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-irc#T18-17-00
19:20:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to change the wording of 1.4.1 to be - The user can globally set any or all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content, overriding any specified by the author or user agent defaults: [6]
19:20:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-irc#T18-21-22
19:20:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jallan to write wayne about rejecting addition to 1.4.2 [7]
19:20:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-irc#T18-28-16