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15:40:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/26-css-irc
15:40:41 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:40:41 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
15:40:46 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:42:54 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
15:55:31 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:38 <Zakim> +??P9
15:55:47 <florian> Zakim, I am ??P9
15:55:47 <Zakim> +florian; got it
15:56:52 <Zakim> +??P20
15:56:58 <glazou> Zakim, ??P20 is me
15:56:58 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:57:43 <Zakim> +plinss
15:57:46 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
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15:58:56 <Zakim> + +34.93.192.aaaa
15:59:02 <Zakim> +stearns
15:59:08 <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is antonp 
15:59:08 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
16:00:03 <Zakim> + +1.408.543.aabb
16:00:04 <Zakim> +hober
16:00:07 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:28 <vhardy> vhardy has joined #css
16:00:39 <glazou> Zakim, aabb is ericmueller
16:00:39 <Zakim> +ericmueller; got it
16:01:01 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
16:01:44 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
16:01:52 <Rossen> Rossen has joined #css
16:02:04 <Zakim> +dbaron
16:02:16 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_ has joined #css
16:02:51 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:03:15 <Zakim> +smfr
16:03:29 <Zakim> +??P56
16:03:33 <Zakim> +bradk
16:03:38 <Zakim> +Bert
16:03:39 <kojiishi> zakim, ??p56 is me
16:03:39 <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
16:04:08 <Zakim> +tabatkins_
16:05:08 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:06:20 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
16:06:32 <fantasai> glazou: Extra items?
16:06:49 <TabAtkins_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2011OctDec/0047.html
16:07:01 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Would like quick yay/nay on inactive text notice
16:07:35 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:07:37 <fantasai> Topic: Note for obsolescence of old WDs
16:08:11 <dbaron> In addition to the use of "should" and "must", I think you should change "CSSWG" to "CSS Working Group"
16:08:57 <fantasai> This specification is not being actively maintained, and must not be
16:08:57 <fantasai> used as a guide for implementations. It may be revived in the future,
16:08:57 <fantasai> but for now should be considered obsolete.
16:08:57 <fantasai> If you have questions or comments on this specification, please send
16:08:58 <fantasai> an email to the CSSWG's mailing list at www-style@w3.org.
16:08:58 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
16:09:12 <fantasai> Bert: Tab can add to the editors' drafts, but what about published drafts?
16:09:44 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/
16:09:46 <fantasai> Tab: Should republish WD as well, possibly add a sentence or two
16:09:54 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:10:02 <fantasai> glazou: Link to www-style
16:10:34 <fantasai> Bert: Do we have a list of all the obsolete drafts?
16:10:46 <fantasai> Tab: I started a list in the thread, two emails asking for changes to the list
16:10:59 <fantasai> Tab: Would go with that list amended
16:11:11 <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec
16:11:16 <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing, Rossen
16:11:16 <Zakim> Rossen was already listed in [Microsoft], sylvaing
16:11:17 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
16:11:24 <fantasai> fantasai suggests putting the list on the wiki
16:11:30 <miketaylr> miketaylr has joined #css
16:11:42 <fantasai> Topic: TPAC
16:11:53 <fantasai> glazou: Has everyone seen the details for the Sunday meeting at Adobe?
16:11:58 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2011
16:12:41 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
16:12:42 <arronei_> zakim, microsoft has me
16:12:42 <Zakim> +arronei_; got it
16:13:19 <fantasai> vhardy: We're thinking of setting up dinner at 6:30pm in San Jose, that sound ok?
16:13:34 <fantasai> glazou: Some people are vegetarian?
16:13:44 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Given Vincent's vegetarian, I'm sure he's handled that.
16:14:16 <fantasai> glazou: I will browse agenda items for TPAC tomorrow and try to schedule things
16:14:52 <fantasai> Florian: There was on the W3C site a very long list of ppl who would like to observe
16:15:11 <fantasai> glazou: I got some requests from Adobe for observers from Adobe
16:15:42 <fantasai> glazou: I also got some requests for other observers. I gave them rules we gave the Japanese observers at Mozilla. We usually accept all observers, as long as there is space.
16:16:00 <fantasai> Florian: The list on w3c site was O(tens)
16:16:15 <fantasai> glazou: I notice a lot of ppl arriving Friday, could make dinner plans for Friday night
16:16:19 <fantasai> over email
16:16:25 <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aacc
16:16:31 <Zakim> -SteveZ
16:16:51 <fantasai> glazou: anything else about TPAC?
16:16:57 <Zakim> +bradk.a
16:16:59 <fantasai> vhardy: How are we arranging carpool?
16:17:02 <Zakim> -bradk
16:17:09 <fantasai> fantasai: I'm just going to assign people to cars later this week
16:17:32 <fantasai> Topic: CSS3 Values and Units
16:17:48 <Bert> (We have 35 people signed for the meeting up as *member*, assuming they all clicked the right button, we'll not have much room for the 32 observers...)
16:17:53 <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/products/8
16:18:35 <glazou> Bert: do you have a direct link for that?
16:18:44 <glazou> oh sorry
16:18:49 <glazou> wanted the list of observers
16:18:57 <Bert> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2011/registrants
16:18:59 <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/77
16:19:00 <glazou> ISSUE 77
16:19:11 <szilles> szilles has joined #css
16:19:12 <fantasai> ISSUE-77: Cap-height unit proposal from dbaron http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0552.html
16:19:12 <trackbot> ISSUE-77 Cap-height unit proposal notes added
16:19:31 <JohnJansen> JohnJansen has joined #css
16:19:35 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:19:44 <JohnJansen> zakim, microsoft has johnjan
16:19:44 <Zakim> sorry, JohnJansen, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft'
16:19:52 <JohnJansen> zakim, microsoft has johnjansen
16:19:52 <Zakim> sorry, JohnJansen, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft'
16:20:03 <fantasai> fantasai: Question is add or don't add; should be similar to ex-height to define
16:20:03 <Rossen> How is this going to impact the line height itelf?
16:20:12 <Rossen> (sorry my phone connection died)
16:20:13 <glazou> ACTION glazou: send an email to people who requested observer status
16:20:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-373 - Send an email to people who requested observer status [on Daniel Glazman - due 2011-11-02].
16:20:39 <fantasai> Florian: What about Japanese text?
16:20:48 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:20:57 <fantasai> dbaron: The use case is fitting something on the baseline to be the size of the letters
16:21:01 <JohnJansen> zakim, microsoft has johnjansen
16:21:01 <Zakim> +johnjansen; got it
16:21:14 <fantasai> sylvaing: what kind of use case?
16:21:22 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aaa]
16:21:34 <fantasai> szilles: introducing new glyphs, e.g. for math
16:22:03 <fantasai> Florian: Not sure introducing one unit will be enough to solve the problem
16:22:15 <fantasai> TabAtkins: For Japanese, em-height should do it. For lowercase letters, ex-height will do it
16:22:52 <fantasai> sylvaing: Is this common? Do people like Brad have to do this often and have to hack it?
16:23:10 <fantasai> TabAtkins: If I'm putting a sparkline inline with the text, you don't want it to be bigger than the text.
16:23:23 <fantasai> fantasai: Wouldn't that be em-height?
16:23:32 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Not if you want it baseline-aligned
16:23:52 <fantasai> sylvaing: Is it a height issue or baseline issue?
16:24:04 <fantasai> fantasai: The height you choose depends on the baseline you choose
16:24:41 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Right now, if you want something to extend from top to bottom of the line, you set vertical-align to bottom and give it 1em height
16:24:58 <fantasai> TabAtkins: You can make it ex-height and baseline-aligned to fit within the lowercase area
16:25:25 <fantasai> TabAtkins: But you can't do baseline to top because we don't have this case
16:25:28 <jarek> jarek has joined #css
16:26:10 <fantasai> Florian: If we can solve all languages with one or two units, then it's good, but if it's many new units for all scripts, then maybe that doesn't work so well
16:26:17 <fantasai> and we should use a different solution
16:26:47 <fantasai> szilles: The ratio of ascender to descender can vary between fonts. So cap-height will be different for different fonts.
16:27:18 <stearns> there are a lot of font metrics we could expose - we may want to defer doing this until we have the time/interest in exposing it all
16:27:21 <fantasai> Florian: i think the idea is good if it extends to other scripts
16:27:28 <fantasai> sylvaing: And if the fonts support this data
16:28:57 <fantasai> some discussion of international considerations: ideographic, indic, vertical-flow, thai
16:29:41 <fantasai> fantasai: So the plan is, afaict, to defer this to the next level
16:30:01 <fantasai> szilles: I'll ask font guys about metrics for things like sparklines
16:30:41 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Deferred to level 4
16:31:07 <fantasai> TabAtkins: next issue is required ranges for CSS
16:31:17 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Implementations must go at least up to this number; may go beyond
16:31:56 <fantasai> szilles: Didn't we resolve on this?
16:32:06 <fantasai> fantasai: We resolved to have this requirement, but not what it is
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16:32:29 <fantasai> Florian: Let's assign action items to browser vendors to investigate
16:32:45 <fantasai> TabAtkins: I've never heard anyone complain about overflow, so whatever we're doing is fine.
16:32:50 <fantasai> s/doing/doing now/
16:33:06 <fantasai> arronei: I have most of the information/testcases for this
16:33:17 <fantasai> arronei: new properties would be tricky if they're different
16:33:21 <Bert> (Range? Or precision?)
16:33:41 <fantasai> fantasai: Can you make a proposal for what to put in Values and Units?
16:33:48 <fantasai> arronei: I can collect the data
16:34:12 <fantasai> Bert: I wonder if this is 2 different things. Range - do we accept 10km? But also precision.
16:34:17 <fantasai> Do we handle 1 part in 1000
16:34:58 <fantasai> ACTION arronei: collect data and make a proposal
16:34:58 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - arronei
16:35:20 <glazou> ACTION arronei_: collect data and make a proposal
16:35:21 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - arronei_
16:35:33 <glazou> arronei_: zakim does not know you today
16:35:43 <fantasai> TabAtkins: I know Opera goes under 2^31 on some things
16:35:48 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
16:36:06 <fantasai> ?: If something like this goes into the spec, it should be on the lower bounds so that we don't have to go fix anything depending on the type
16:36:22 <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
16:36:22 <fantasai> Florian: Why are we doing this?
16:36:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see florian, glazou, plinss, antonp, stearns, ericmueller, hober, [IPcaller], dbaron, smfr, kojiishi, Bert, tabatkins_, fantasai, [Microsoft.a], [Microsoft.aa],
16:36:27 <Zakim> ... +1.408.536.aacc, bradk.a, [Microsoft], [Microsoft.aaa]
16:36:30 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has johnjansen
16:36:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger, jarek_, JohnJansen, szilles, miketaylr, sylvaing, TabAtkins_, Rossen, smfr, bradk, vhardy, antonp, oyvind, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, CSSWG_LogBot,
16:36:36 <fantasai> TabAtkins: For the test suites, we need to know what's a valid range to test
16:36:37 <Zakim> ... florian, kojiishi, myakura, florianr, lhnz, arronei_, krijnh, stearns, karl, TabAtkins, Hixie, pjrm, Bert, shepazu, davve, hober, gsnedders, plinss, fantasai, ed, trackbot
16:37:04 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Right now we could know implementations support up to .. 8 but nothing beyond that. 
16:37:21 <fantasai> TabAtkins: It's primarily a quality-of-implementation issue, but want some minimum to meet or exceed
16:37:41 <jarek> jarek has joined #css
16:38:00 <dbaron> Florian: It's not intended to be an exercise where we have to change the implementations, right?
16:38:57 <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/186
16:39:11 <fantasai> TabAtkins: proposal to move CSSOM value serialization from CSSOM to CSS3 Values
16:39:22 <fantasai> dbaron: That's moving them from a less stable spec to a more stable spec
16:39:36 <dbaron> dbaron: I'd like to review them carefully... may not have gotten a lot of atttention yet.
16:40:14 <fantasai> fantasai: Question here is, do we even want to move them
16:40:45 <fantasai> glazou: Seems like a Pandora's box
16:41:18 <fantasai> glazou: Would want to add serialization to all the other CSS constructs
16:41:32 <fantasai> glazou: Also, might be useful to implementers to have it all in one place
16:41:58 <fantasai> fantasai: Could be a separate, parallel module, e.g. CSSOM Values and Units
16:42:13 <fantasai> sylvaing: or just have Serialization be its own thing
16:42:58 <fantasai> sylvaing: I think if you want to move Values and Units forward, doesn't seem like a good idea.
16:43:08 <fantasai> sylvaing: I think having a single core Serialization spec would be a good idea
16:43:15 <fantasai> glazou: I'd like time to investigate that.
16:44:02 <fantasai> glazou: I think we should leave it in CSSOM spec for now, and decide later when we know better what needs to be split out and dispatch to the various modules.
16:44:05 <fantasai> glazou: It's a lot of work.
16:44:14 <fantasai> fantasai: So close this issue no change?
16:44:23 <fantasai> glazou: That's my recommendation.
16:44:30 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Closed no change
16:45:18 <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/190
16:45:23 <fantasai> Removing or renaming 'vm' unit
16:45:24 <glazou> ROFL
16:45:52 <fantasai> sylvaing: There is one implementation, but at this point no clue on how ...
16:46:22 <fantasai> fantasai: I'm strongly in favor of renaming, b/c I think it's vague and ambiguous and confusing.
16:46:48 <fantasai> Florian: The objection was based on most units being 2 letters
16:47:32 <fantasai> TabAtkins: We already have 3-letter units, so ehh
16:47:47 <fantasai> arronei: Have an implementation, but not a strong objection.
16:48:17 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Rename 'vm' as 'vmin'.
16:48:27 <fantasai> Florian: Should we keep it at-risk?
16:48:40 <fantasai> fantasai: Could do, but I doubt someone implementing 'vh' and 'vw' would skip it
16:50:00 <fantasai> fantasai: We could keep it at-risk, but that won't really mean much.
16:51:39 <fantasai> Florian: ppl are confused about whether it's 1/100th or just 1x
16:51:52 <Zakim> -smfr
16:52:04 <Zakim> +smfr
16:52:37 <fantasai> fantasai: I think part of the problem is the spec was not very clear in tying these to the idea of percentages, which make the 1/100th seem less arbitrary.
16:53:11 <fantasai> fantasai: Also, since IE has an implementation; chances are vh and vw are more used than vm, also this would be an interpretation difference; vm -> vmin would trigger a parse error
16:53:21 <fantasai> fantasai: So I'm leaning towards not changing it
16:53:59 <fantasai> RESOLVED: vh/vw/vm stay as percentages, clarify spec
16:54:21 <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/192
16:54:30 <fantasai> Move "Stages of Value Computation" spec to CSS3 Cascade
16:55:11 <Zakim> -fantasai
16:55:21 <fantasai> glazou: what means "mostly" in 2.1?
16:55:28 <fantasai> glazou: what's missing?
16:55:34 <fantasai> fantasai: Only examples afaict
16:55:54 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:57:55 <fantasai> glazou: I'm ok to move it if CSS3 Cascade is not marked as obsolete
16:58:27 <fantasai> fantasai: Ok, I'm willing to work with that conditional. Does anyone else have an opinion?
16:58:39 <fantasai> dbaron: If someone starts fixing them up, shouldn't be marked obsolete
16:58:58 <fantasai> szilles: mark it unmaintained, not obsolete
16:59:09 <fantasai> Florian: Would need the spec to have an editor
16:59:14 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Doesn't need one if it's identical to 2.1
17:00:19 <fantasai> fantasai: So if we update CSS3 Cascade and sync it to 2.1 and post a WD, and then leave it there without taking to LC because there's nothing new or useful in it, is that ok?
17:00:30 <fantasai> florian: Why not move it along the rec track?
17:00:36 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Editors' time
17:00:43 <fantasai> glazou: And test suite
17:01:48 <Zakim> -ericmueller
17:01:50 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:01:50 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:01:51 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:01:51 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:01:52 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
17:01:52 <Zakim> -glazou
17:01:53 <Zakim> -hober
17:01:55 <Zakim> -tabatkins_
17:01:57 <Zakim> -kojiishi
17:01:57 <antonp> antonp has left #css
17:01:59 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aaa]
17:02:01 <Zakim> -stearns
17:02:03 <Zakim> -florian
17:02:05 <Zakim> -smfr
17:02:06 <glazou> Bert: why do you think I am flying on friday :-) before the strike...
17:02:07 <Zakim> - +1.408.536.aacc
17:02:09 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:02:11 <Zakim> -antonp
17:02:13 <Zakim> -plinss
17:02:15 <Zakim> -Bert
17:02:17 <Zakim> -bradk.a
17:02:19 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:02:20 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Move this section to CSS3 Cascade, update CSS3 Cascade and sync to 2.1 so that it's unmaintained but not obsolete, and when someone has a reason to move it forward along the rec track (i.e. someething to put in it that's not already in 2.1) then they can move it forward from there.
17:02:21 <Zakim> Attendees were florian, glazou, plinss, +34.93.192.aaaa, stearns, antonp, +1.408.543.aabb, hober, [IPcaller], ericmueller, dbaron, smfr, Rossen, bradk, Bert, kojiishi, tabatkins_,
17:02:24 <Zakim> ... fantasai, SteveZ, sylvaing, arronei_, +1.408.536.aacc, johnjansen, [Microsoft]
17:03:04 <szilles> note +1.408.536.aacc was SteveZ
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