17:05:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #text
17:05:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/25-text-irc
17:05:25 <janina> zakim, this will be 2119
17:05:25 <Zakim> ok, janina; I see Team_(text)17:00Z scheduled to start 5 minutes ago
17:05:29 <Joshue108> Hi all
17:05:36 <janina> agenda+ Favicons
17:05:36 <janina> agenda+ longdesc: progress on JS-response to Matt's updated proposal?
17:05:36 <janina> agenda+ meta name=generator: updates?  +<http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming>
17:05:36 <janina> agenda+ table summary: expanded use cases? <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ReinstateTableSummary>
17:05:37 <janina> agenda+ generated content: progress on discussions?  <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13668>
17:05:39 <janina> agenda+ resuming work on document location for alt guidance Definition of "accessibility" (WG 6)
17:05:40 <Joshue108> I can monitor on IRC
17:05:53 <janina>  
17:06:45 <LeonieWatson> scribe: Léonie Watson
17:06:56 <LeonieWatson> zakim, next item
17:06:56 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Favicons" taken up [from janina]
17:06:58 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
17:06:58 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Favicons" taken up [from janina]
17:07:57 <LeonieWatson> KF: Wanted to bring up an issue. Not sure there is anything can be done. Most user agents do not have a concept of a favicon.
17:08:51 <kford> The icon keyword may be used with link elements. This keyword creates an external resource link. 
17:08:52 <kford> The specified resource is an icon representing the page or site, and should be used by the user agent when representing the page in the user interface.
17:08:54 <kford> Icons could be auditory icons, visual icons, or other kinds of icons. If multiple icons are provided, the user agent must select the most appropriate icon according to the type, media, and sizes attributes. If there are multiple equally appropriate icons, user agents must use the last one declared in tree order at the time that the user agent collected the list of icons. If the user agent...
17:08:55 <kford> ...tries to use an icon but that icon is determined, upon closer examination, to in fact be inappropriate (e.g. because it uses an unsupported format), then the user agent must try the next-most-appropriate icon as determined by the attributes. 
17:08:57 <kford> User agents are not required to update icons when the list of icons changes, but are encouraged to do so.
17:08:59 <kford> There is no default type for resources given by the icon keyword. However, for the purposes of determining the type of the resource, user agents must expect the resource to be an image.
17:09:01 <kford> The sizes attribute gives the sizes of icons for visual media. Its value, if present, is merely advisory. User agents may use the value to decide which icon(s) to use if multiple icons are available. 
17:09:04 <kford> If specified, the attribute must have a value that is an unordered set of unique space-separated tokens which are ASCII case-insensitive. Each value must be either an ASCII case-insensitive match for the string "any", or a value that consists of two valid non-negative integers that do not have a leading U+0030 DIGIT ZERO (0) character and that are separated by a single U+0078 LATIN SMALL...
17:09:09 <kford> ...LETTER X or U+0058 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER X character. 
17:09:11 <kford> The keywords represent icon sizes. 
17:09:13 <kford> To parse and process the attribute's value, the user agent must first split the attribute's value on spaces, and must then parse each resulting keyword to determine what it represents.
17:09:16 <kford> The any keyword represents that the resource contains a scalable icon, e.g. as provided by an SVG image. 
17:09:17 <LeonieWatson> KF: My question to the TF is, looking at 4.1.2.4.5 of the specification, there's no provision to provide alternative descriptions for these images?
17:09:18 <kford> Other keywords must be further parsed as follows to determine what they represent:
17:09:20 <kford> •	If the keyword doesn't contain exactly one U+0078 LATIN SMALL LETTER X or U+0058 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER X character, then this keyword doesn't represent anything. Abort these steps for that keyword.
17:09:23 <kford> •	Let width string be the string before the "x" or "X".
17:09:25 <kford> •	Let height string be the string after the "x" or "X".
17:09:27 <kford> •	If either width string or height string start with a U+0030 DIGIT ZERO (0) character or contain any characters other than characters in the range U+0030 DIGIT ZERO (0) to U+0039 DIGIT NINE (9), then this keyword doesn't represent anything. Abort these steps for that keyword.
17:09:31 <kford> •	Apply the rules for parsing non-negative integers to width string to obtain width.
17:09:33 <kford> •	Apply the rules for parsing non-negative integers to height string to obtain height.
17:09:35 <kford> •	The keyword represents that the resource contains a bitmap icon with a width of width device pixels and a height of height device pixels.
17:09:38 <kford> The keywords specified on the sizes attribute must not represent icon sizes that are not actually available in the linked resource. 
17:09:41 <kford> In the absence of a link with the icon keyword, for Documents obtained over HTTP or HTTPS, user agents may instead attempt to fetch and use an icon with the absolute URL obtained by resolving the URL "/favicon.ico" against the document's address, as if the page had declared that icon using the icon keyword.
17:09:45 <kford> The following snippet shows the top part of an application with several icons.
17:09:47 <kford> <!DOCTYPE HTML>
17:09:49 <kford> <html>
17:09:51 <kford>  <head>
17:09:53 <kford>   <title>lsForums — Inbox</title>
17:09:55 <kford>   <link rel=icon href=favicon.png sizes="16x16" type="image/png">
17:09:56 <LeonieWatson> JF: My first thought is that this is presentational content.
17:09:57 <kford>   <link rel=icon href=windows.ico sizes="32x32 48x48" type="image/vnd.microsoft.icon">
17:09:59 <kford>   <link rel=icon href=mac.icns sizes="128x128 512x512 8192x8192 32768x32768">
17:10:01 <kford>   <link rel=icon href=iphone.png sizes="57x57" type="image/png">
17:10:03 <kford>   <link rel=icon href=gnome.svg sizes="any" type="image/svg+xml">
17:10:05 <kford>   <link rel=stylesheet href=lsforums.css>
17:10:07 <kford>   <script src=lsforums.js></script>
17:10:09 <kford>   <meta name=application-name content="lsForums">
17:10:11 <kford>  </head>
17:10:13 <kford>  <body>
17:10:15 <kford>   ...
17:10:17 <kford> For historical reasons, the icon keyword may be preceded by the keyword "shortcut". If the "shortcut" keyword is present, it must be come immediately before the icon keyword and the two keywords must be separated by only a single U+0020 SPACE character.
17:10:24 <LeonieWatson> JF: Is it presentational data? It's a combination of things.
17:10:49 <LeonieWatson> s/JF: Is it/KF: Is it/
17:11:16 <LeonieWatson> KF: It may be that this kind of thing should be exposed programmatically.
17:12:11 <LeonieWatson> JF: I support this idea.
17:13:10 <LeonieWatson> KF: It's possible to drag a favicon in IE and pin it to the taskbar.
17:13:34 <LeonieWatson> JF: A link element should be able to take on any ARIA attribute. Is that correct?
17:13:39 <LeonieWatson> JS: Right.
17:13:53 <JF> <link rel="apple-touch-icon" type="image/png" href="http://www.stanford.edu/dept/registrar/cgi-bin/askjane/images/jane.png" />
17:13:54 <LeonieWatson> JF: Seems this would be an appropriate use case for aria-labelledby?
17:14:19 <LeonieWatson> JF: The Apple touch icon is essentially the same as a favicon.
17:14:30 <LeonieWatson> s/aria-labelledby/ARIA label/
17:14:37 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:14:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/25-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
17:14:59 <LeonieWatson> KF: Most websites use their logo as a favicon.
17:15:09 <LeonieWatson> JF: Usually a png or similar.
17:15:42 <LeonieWatson> JF: If i have a number of shortcut icons on my desktop, there is no way to tell what the icon looks like, only that it's there.
17:15:59 <LeonieWatson> KF: Correct. This isn't just about shortcuts though, it's about the browser as well.
17:16:32 <LeonieWatson> JF: I'm just trying to dig down into current  behaviours. How do you know when you keypress on an icon it'll behave like a link?
17:16:40 <LeonieWatson> KF: They'll have roles and labels.
17:17:19 <LeonieWatson> JF: So a favicon dragged to a desktop would have a role of?
17:17:36 <Joshue108> Will some kind of programattically determined label not suffice for this?
17:17:44 <LeonieWatson> JS: On my desktop I'm seeing things like "Apache" "Binary". Guessing those define the shortcuts.
17:17:49 <LeonieWatson> JF: Those sounds like labels.
17:18:08 <JF> I agree Josh
17:18:09 <Joshue108> JOC:I never thought favicons had much use beyond visual eye candy.
17:18:34 <LeonieWatson> KF: Let's say you go five pages deep on CNN. Now that page title might be lengthy, but the favicon would still be CNN.
17:18:46 <LeonieWatson> KF: At present the UA has no way to know what label to assign.
17:18:58 <LeonieWatson> JF: Right. That's where I think ARIA label would solve the problem?
17:19:03 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:19:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/25-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
17:19:32 <LeonieWatson> JS: We're not handling this at all at the moment. We need to.
17:19:55 <Joshue108> +1 to JF, if aria-label is suffcient.
17:19:58 <LeonieWatson> KF: We should work with the UA vendors. Explain we want to pay attention to this. Maybe ARIA label is the appropriate solution.
17:20:34 <LeonieWatson> JF: ARIA label is a global state property, applicable to all host language elements. From the ARIA spec.
17:21:06 <Joshue108> s/suffcient/sufficient
17:21:28 <LeonieWatson> KF: I can raise this internally and see what response there is to ARIA label.
17:21:47 <LeonieWatson> JF: The purpose of ARIA label is to provide the user with a description of the object. From the ARIA spec.
17:22:32 <LeonieWatson> JF: Seems to me you're right, we need to get this captured. We should let the WCAG WG know.
17:22:40 <LeonieWatson> JS: I think we need an HTML bug as well.
17:22:46 <JF> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-label
17:22:54 <LeonieWatson> KF: Let me go back internally on this and report back first.
17:23:14 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:23:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/25-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
17:23:40 <LeonieWatson> JS: I'm suggesting an HTML bug is because we've created a specific mapping. ARIA is not incorporated in the HTML5 spec.
17:23:50 <LeonieWatson> JF: There is an authors guide that's HTML5 + ARIA.
17:23:59 <LeonieWatson> JS: Yes, and this should be referenced in there.
17:24:43 <Joshue108> Is ARIA not mostly incorporated into HTML5 now?
17:24:53 <janina> scribe: janina
17:25:05 <janina> leonie, Wants to support that we need a solution here.
17:25:10 <janina> scribe: leonie
17:25:32 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:25:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/25-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
17:25:48 <LeonieWatson> JS: We should touch on this during the PF face to face as well.
17:26:00 <janina> zakim, next item
17:26:00 <Zakim> agendum 2. "longdesc: progress on JS-response to Matt's updated proposal?" taken up [from janina]
17:26:34 <LeonieWatson> JS: It's in my court. Has there been any discussion since your post John?
17:27:07 <LeonieWatson> JF: I'm almost done with my response. I don't want to just post it, before other people have had an opportunity to review it.
17:27:45 <LeonieWatson> JF: Not sure what else we can do after that, except let the chairs know we're ready to move forward. We may be able to hold off until next week and let the chairs know then perhaps.
17:27:50 <JF> s/JF: I'm almost done with my response. I don't want to just post it, before other people have had an opportunity to review it./JS: I'm almost done with my response. I don't want to just post it, before other people have had an opportunity to review it.
17:27:52 <janina> zakim, next item
17:27:52 <Zakim> agendum 3. "meta name=generator: updates?  +<http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming>" taken up [from janina]
17:29:15 <LeonieWatson> JS: I've spoken with Steve Faulkner, but the latest update is that he's swamped clearing his desk before TPAC next week.
17:29:58 <LeonieWatson> JS: We have a couple of things stacked up, and I think TPAC will be useful to help with some of those.
17:30:27 <janina> zakim, next item
17:30:27 <Zakim> agendum 4. "table summary: expanded use cases? <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ReinstateTableSummary>" taken up [from janina]
17:30:33 <kford> no objections./me I'll send a link to the mailing list. Not finding the exact link just yet.
17:31:09 <LeonieWatson> JS: I haven't done anything on this I'm afraid. Lynne Holdsworth has helped with use cases. My action was to compare the response to the original objection.
17:31:43 <Joshue108> JOC: I'm happy for any use cases that Lynn wants to add to the CP
17:32:10 <JF> new @summary bug: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14107
17:32:56 <LeonieWatson> JS: I'm interested in people's thoughts on table summary.
17:33:06 <Joshue108> JOC: Yes, its an interesting bug, that @summary being non-conforming with un-validate existing conformant WCAG content.
17:34:47 <LeonieWatson> LW: I find it useful in some circumstances, when it describes the visual characteristics of the table.
17:35:35 <Joshue108> s/with/will
17:35:44 <LeonieWatson> JF: It isn't a perfect solution, but worth putting time into.
17:36:09 <Joshue108> JOC: I've said all I have to on the issue.
17:36:23 <LeonieWatson> JS: I wonder about other solutions?
17:36:58 <LeonieWatson> JS: Could longdesc work perhaps?
17:37:09 <LeonieWatson> JF: It could do possibly.
17:37:22 <Joshue108> JOC: What would work about longdesc is its ability to reference an offpage URI.
17:37:37 <Joshue108> JOC: Same as whats good about longdesc vs aria-desc
17:38:01 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:38:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/25-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
17:40:15 <LeonieWatson> JS: It's worth us looking at the possibility.
17:40:30 <LeonieWatson> JF: We'd need to look at longdesc and our thoughts on it.
17:41:45 <LeonieWatson> LW: Longdesc would also mean people other than AT users could have access to the information.
17:42:46 <LeonieWatson> JF: Is it worth getting together with some of the browser guys at TPAC and talking this through?
17:45:41 <LeonieWatson> JS: Would longdesc meet the table summary use case?
17:45:55 <LeonieWatson> JOC: Longdesc hooks up to a URI. 
17:46:39 <JF> s/	JS: Would longdesc meet the table summary use case?/
17:47:55 <LeonieWatson> JS: We're going to be kicking around some ARIA ideas at TPAC that might be helpful here.
17:50:04 <LeonieWatson> JF: ARIA is target at the accessibility APIs. That still leaves a gap concerning people with cognitive disabilities, for example.
17:50:26 <LeonieWatson> JS: We'd still need something in the HTML5 spec.
17:53:12 <LeonieWatson> JF: We already have details and summary in the HTML5 spec. They're visually present on the page.
17:54:09 <LeonieWatson> JF: In some instances those elements don't solve the problem at hand. We might be able to solve that with ARIA, but that wouldn't present a solution available to non AT users.
17:55:16 <LeonieWatson> JOC: To be futureproof we should try to reduce semantics, and have less dependence on solutions that rely on accessibility APIs.
17:56:05 <LeonieWatson> JF: ARIA was only intended as an interim solution.
17:56:30 <LeonieWatson> JS: No, that's not right. That's not how we see it in the ARIA camp.
17:57:26 <LeonieWatson> JOC: Is it fair to say ARIA is a full citizen for markup language, today and tomorrow?
17:57:44 <LeonieWatson> JS: Yes. 
17:58:30 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:58:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/25-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
17:58:43 <JF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0903.html
17:59:29 <LeonieWatson> JS: I'll finish my response to Matt regarding longdesc. After that I'll be able to look at your table summary response Joshu.
18:00:34 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/25-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
18:03:12 <LeonieWatson> JF: Email with reference to ARIA as an interim thing is pasted above.
18:03:32 <LeonieWatson> JS: I think you can interpret Al's comments in different ways.
18:05:01 <LeonieWatson> LW: The trouble is that many people do believe ARIA to be an interim solution. The message has been interpreted that way by a large number.
18:05:27 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:05:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/25-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
18:05:31 <janina> zakim, next item
18:05:31 <Zakim> agendum 5. "generated content: progress on discussions?  <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13668>" taken up [from janina]
18:05:56 <janina> Steve will finish incorporating our comments by TPAC
18:05:59 <janina> zakim, next item
18:05:59 <Zakim> agendum 5 was just opened, janina
18:06:05 <janina> zakim, close item 5
18:06:05 <Zakim> agendum 5, generated content: progress on discussions?  <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13668>, closed
18:06:08 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:06:09 <Zakim> 6. resuming work on document location for alt guidance Definition of "accessibility" (WG 6) [from janina]
18:06:12 <janina> zakim, next item
18:06:12 <Zakim> agendum 6. "resuming work on document location for alt guidance Definition of "accessibility" (WG 6)" taken up [from janina]
18:06:50 <janina> Michael Cooper will take this up following TPAC
18:12:31 <janina> zakim, close item 6
18:12:31 <Zakim> agendum 6, resuming work on document location for alt guidance Definition of "accessibility" (WG 6), closed
18:12:33 <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
18:12:37 <janina> zakim, take up item 5
18:12:37 <Zakim> agendum 5. "generated content: progress on discussions?  <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13668>" taken up [from janina]
18:13:12 <janina> Correction. Yours truly's last comment was about something else.
18:14:48 <janina> This topic most recently discussed at the Thursday TF call on 20 October: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Oct/0100.html
18:15:08 <janina> No further discussion to date, perhaps at TPAC?
18:15:13 <janina> zakim, next item
18:15:14 <Zakim> I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, janina
18:15:23 <janina> zakim, bye
18:15:23 <Zakim> Zakim has left #text
18:15:31 <janina> zakim, make minutes
18:15:37 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
18:15:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/25-text-minutes.html janina
18:16:10 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
18:16:21 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
18:16:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/25-text-minutes.html janina
19:30:37 <Judy> Judy has joined #text
20:18:01 <judy_alt> judy_alt has joined #text