IRC log of ua on 2011-10-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:49:58 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-irc
16:50:00 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:50:00 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:50:02 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
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ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
16:50:03 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:50:03 [trackbot]
Date: 20 October 2011
16:50:18 [JAllan]
chair: JimAllan, KellyFord
16:50:30 [JAllan]
regrets+ MarkH
16:52:18 [JAllan]
regrets+ SimonH, KimP
16:53:36 [JAllan]
Agenda+ propose agenda items for TPAC (what would you like to see)
16:53:37 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Review Survey for Oct 6 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110929/
16:53:39 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Review Survey for Sept 22 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110921/
16:53:40 [JAllan]
Agenda+ review comments -
16:53:42 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JulSep/0010.html
16:56:11 [kford]
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WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:56:43 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
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+Jim_Allan
16:57:08 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:57:15 [kford]
zakim, microsoftkford
16:57:15 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'microsoftkford', kford
16:57:22 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
16:57:22 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
16:59:01 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
16:59:33 [JAllan]
me: waves back, 3 regrets so far
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+Jeanne
17:00:31 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
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+ +1.617.435.aaaa
17:01:04 [jeanne]
aaaa is really Kim
17:01:23 [Zakim]
+??P14
17:01:35 [Jan]
zakim, ??P14 is really Jan
17:01:35 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:03:59 [Zakim]
+Greg_Lowney
17:07:18 [JAllan]
all: discussion of TPAC wednesday unconference
17:07:53 [JAllan]
zakim, who is here?
17:07:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jim_Allan, kford, Jeanne, +1.617.435.aaaa, Jan, Greg_Lowney
17:07:55 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Greg, jeanne, Jan, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot
17:08:13 [JAllan]
zakim, aaaa is really KimP
17:08:13 [Zakim]
+KimP; got it
17:13:26 [JAllan]
scribe: jallan
17:14:04 [JAllan]
js: reviewed Understanding Section for mobile access. Don't have any specific examples, need to add some
17:15:08 [Jan]
btw: Here is a report Jutta and I did in Canada (http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/publications/reports/rp110327.htm)
17:16:08 [Zakim]
-KimP
17:16:09 [JAllan]
the above is general review of mobile handset accessibility
17:16:59 [JAllan]
... doesn't address hearing, only talks to vision, dexterity, cognitive
17:17:33 [JAllan]
... the above is a report to Canadian version of American FCC
17:18:40 [JAllan]
... include future developments and best practices. In Canada the telephone companies are on the hook, they need to push on the handset manufacturers to make them accessible
17:19:43 [JAllan]
We also had a short discussion on Kim's Navigation Marks proposed SC--http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0017.html
17:20:21 [JAllan]
topic: New comment
17:20:23 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0018.html
17:21:24 [JAllan]
Please insert an explicit requirement for user agents to convert aria-activedescendant into MSAA for focus and location --- David Bolter said it was covered in ARIA implementation Please insert an explicit requirement for user agents to convert aria-activedescendant into MSAA for focus and location
17:21:38 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0019.html
17:22:46 [jeanne]
Greg: 4.1.6 covers this
17:23:17 [jeanne]
... but only in a general sense. We could tweak the intent and add an example.
17:24:26 [jeanne]
JA: In 4.1.1, 4.1.2 and 4.1.6 address supporting the architecture, which means the name, role, state that Jonathan is discussing.
17:25:44 [jeanne]
GL: it doesn't NEED it, but we could add some things to address it more directly. In 4.1.6, we could add a sentence to the intent paragraph, "this applies to the user agent interfact and some parts of the content
17:27:00 [Greg]
For example, could add to the Intent paragraph of 4.1.6 Properties the sentence "This applies to both user agent user interface (e.g. menus and dialog boxes) and to recognized aspects of the user content (e.g. HTML script using ARIA to indicate focus on custom controls)."
17:27:19 [Greg]
Because if at least one person read our document and didn't think it was clear, there's no harm in making it a bit more explicit.
17:27:32 [JAllan]
ja: seems to be explicitly covered by the intent in 4.1.2, could add ARIA example.
17:27:41 [Greg]
Or, could strip out the parenthetical examples and just make those examples in the list of examples.
17:28:05 [kford]
In the intent I am fine with this, just not in a SC.
17:32:20 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to add to intent of 4.1.6 This applies to both user agent user interface (e.g. menus and dialog boxes) and to recognized aspects of the user content (e.g. HTML script using ARIA to indicate focus on custom controls)."
17:32:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-623 - Add to intent of 4.1.6 This applies to both user agent user interface (e.g. menus and dialog boxes) and to recognized aspects of the user content (e.g. HTML script using ARIA to indicate focus on custom controls)." [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-10-27].
17:32:52 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to fix 4.1.2 to add a carriage return under the first example.
17:32:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-624 - Fix 4.1.2 to add a carriage return under the first example. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-10-27].
17:36:31 [Greg]
Seems odd that we don't have any examples involving CANVAS.
17:37:10 [JAllan]
action: jallan to respond to comment, covered in 4.1.2, 4.1.6 in general terms. forward Bolter comment. generally the comment is too specific
17:37:10 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-625 - Respond to comment, covered in 4.1.2, 4.1.6 in general terms. forward Bolter comment. generally the comment is too specific [on Jim Allan - due 2011-10-27].
17:37:40 [JAllan]
all: we are try to be technology agnostic.
17:38:10 [JAllan]
kf: different groups are writing specific implementation guides for givien technologies
17:38:20 [Greg]
The SC should be technology agnostic, but examples should generally be specific about users, technology, and/or UI.
17:38:25 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
17:38:25 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:38:27 [Zakim]
1. propose agenda items for TPAC (what would you like to see) [from JAllan]
17:38:29 [Zakim]
2. Review Survey for Oct 6 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110929/ [from JAllan]
17:38:31 [Zakim]
3. Review Survey for Sept 22 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110921/ [from JAllan]
17:38:33 [Zakim]
4. review comments - [from JAllan]
17:39:54 [JAllan]
zakim, open item 1
17:39:54 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "propose agenda items for TPAC (what would you like to see)" taken up [from JAllan]
17:40:22 [JAllan]
asking for group input into f2f
17:41:57 [JAllan]
gl: TPAC opportunity to interact with folks generally not on our calls. should we branch out to other groups and see what they are thinking
17:42:25 [JAllan]
... do things what we can't do on a conference call. what do we need to do with others.
17:42:38 [JAllan]
jr: make better progress in person.
17:43:05 [JAllan]
kf: hope to be done with the document when we leave.
17:43:48 [JAllan]
gl: will we go through issues and action items.
17:44:32 [JAllan]
kf: new content, anything that needs to be written.
17:45:25 [JAllan]
js: if we have lots of observers, breaking into small groups may not work. should have proposal for everything not yet written.
17:46:11 [JAllan]
kf: if you want to watch the construction crew work...here we are
17:47:03 [JAllan]
js: list of observers...some are signed up for every group.
17:47:28 [JAllan]
jr: observers should not interfere with our group process
17:48:34 [JAllan]
kf: we have to drive our own process and behaviors. we need closure.
17:50:14 [JAllan]
chairs and jeanne will create/publish agenda next week
17:51:39 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 1
17:51:40 [Zakim]
agendum 1, propose agenda items for TPAC (what would you like to see), closed
17:51:42 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:51:43 [Zakim]
2. Review Survey for Oct 6 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110929/ [from JAllan]
17:52:40 [JAllan]
new web-application - to say where you are in the hotel, meeting rooms, etc. check in, out etc
17:54:34 [JAllan]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc7EHIc2TUE
17:55:05 [JAllan]
above is google webinar about accessibility of DOCs
17:57:44 [jeanne]
Google captures all the keystrokes so that the browser knows nothing of what is going on, and nothing is reported to the A11y APIs
17:59:01 [jeanne]
... the screenreader is getting all information from javascript. It tells the screenreader what it needs to say. It isn't getting any information from the browser.
17:59:42 [jeanne]
... you have to listen to the webinar for the details. Visually, it is drawn at the screen.
18:00:19 [jeanne]
Jan: Javascript can't talk to the MSAA directly, so it has to be commmunicating with the browser at some level.
18:00:38 [jeanne]
Jim: It uses Chrome Vox
18:00:46 [kford]
Google text-to-speech API. http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2011/10/new-text-to-speech-api-for-chrome.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2FDcni+(Google+Code+Blog)
18:01:05 [jeanne]
Kelly: it uses a new text to speech API to generate the speech for the app.
18:01:22 [jeanne]
Jan: it is all divs and spans
18:01:49 [jeanne]
Greg: what problems does it introduce? It prevents browser plugins from adapting to the web app.
18:02:11 [jeanne]
Jan: It prevents you from using the features of your AT. It is passed to their built-in AT.
18:02:33 [jeanne]
Kelly: there are instructions with different forums - like there are setting in JAWS to change.
18:03:04 [JAllan]
chrome with chromeVox becomes essentially a self-voiceing application. no need for AT
18:03:22 [jeanne]
... they have to meet the letter of the law. It doesn't say that you have to work with JAWS.
18:04:30 [jeanne]
Jim: they were asked when they were meeting WCAG and 508, Naomi Black said that they are listening to users, and will get around to standards and guidelines later, now they were focusing on user experience.
18:07:32 [jeanne]
Topic: Jon Avila's comment - revisited
18:09:06 [Greg]
In 4.1.6 bullet a, which says that user agent must expose "the bounding dimensions and coordinates of rendered graphical objects", maybe we should be more explicit either in the SC or in the Intent paragraph or a Note that this means things that the user perceives or that function as separate images or objects, even if at a technical level they're implemented as a single image or object. For...
18:09:07 [Greg]
...example, if a single JPEG image is used for a toolbar, each region of the image that the user can click on for different results should be exposed as a separate object with its own bounding rectangle.
18:09:29 [Greg]
Which is pretty much what Jonathan was suggesting we be more explicit about.
18:10:13 [JAllan]
ja: this is much like an 'image map;
18:10:16 [Greg]
I'm suggesting we add something to make this more explicit.
18:13:23 [JAllan]
jan: coordinates are important when items (text or graphics) get focus
18:14:22 [Jan]
onscreen objects?
18:14:57 [JAllan]
need to changed 4.1.6 a - the bounding dimensions and coordinates of rendered onscreen objects
18:15:15 [Greg]
Jan is concerned that people will read "rendered graphical objects" and interpret "graphical" as meaning images rather than text. The actual intent of the bullet is for anything that has a screen location and that a user would consider to be a separate region, string, control, image, etc. either because it looks like or functions like an independent or semi-independent object.
18:15:16 [JAllan]
including text and graphics
18:15:36 [Greg]
Also, maybe the SC should be changed from "rendered" graphical objects to explicitly include both rendered content and user agent user interface elements.
18:16:43 [Greg]
If we say "of onscreen objects" (elements?) that would include both rendered content and user agent user interface objects/elements.
18:19:12 [JAllan]
action: jeanne to change 4.1.6a to be "the bounding dimensions and coordinates of onscreen elements
18:19:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-626 - Change 4.1.6a to be "the bounding dimensions and coordinates of onscreen elements [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-10-27].
18:20:09 [Greg]
UAAG20 is currently inconsistent on use of "element" vs. "object", but element is the one broadly defined in the glossary.
18:20:31 [JAllan]
zakim: agenda?
18:20:43 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
18:20:43 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
18:20:45 [Zakim]
2. Review Survey for Oct 6 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110929/ [from JAllan]
18:20:47 [Zakim]
3. Review Survey for Sept 22 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110921/ [from JAllan]
18:20:49 [Zakim]
4. review comments - [from JAllan]
18:21:30 [JAllan]
zakim, open item 2
18:21:30 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Review Survey for Oct 6 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110929/" taken up [from JAllan]
18:21:47 [JAllan]
topic: Guideline 2.7 - Configure and store preference settings.
18:21:58 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110929/results#xq1
18:22:55 [JAllan]
orig proposal
18:22:57 [JAllan]
Users can configure, store and restore accessibility preference settings (2.7.1, 2.7.2, 2.7.3) that persist between sessions. Users can manage multiple sets of preference settings and restore groups of settings to defaults (2.7.4, 2.7.5); and users can set preference setting outside the user interface so the default user interface does not prevent access (2.7.6). It's also recommended that...
18:22:59 [JAllan]
...groups of settings can be transported to compatible systems, and a wizard is available to help users configure their preferences (2.7.7, 2.7.8).
18:23:05 [JAllan]
greg proposal
18:23:15 [JAllan]
Users can configure and restore accessibility preference settings (2.7.1, 2.7.3), and accessibility settings persist between sessions (2.7.2). Users should be allowed to manage multiple sets of preference settings and restore groups of settings to defaults (2.7.4, 2.7.5), and adjust preference setting outside the user interface so the current user interface does not prevent access (2.7.6)....
18:23:16 [JAllan]
...It's also recommended that groups of settings can be transported to compatible systems, and a wizard is available to help users configure their preferences (2.7.7, 2.7.8).
18:24:49 [Greg]
Per the discussion in email I'm fine with not using wording differences to distinguish between Level A and Level AA.
18:24:49 [JAllan]
Users can configure and restore accessibility preference settings (2.7.1, 2.7.3), and accessibility settings persist between sessions (2.7.2). Users can manage multiple sets of preference settings and restore groups of settings to defaults (2.7.4, 2.7.5), and adjust preference setting outside the user interface so the current user interface does not prevent access (2.7.6). It's also...
18:24:51 [JAllan]
...recommended that groups of settings can be transported to compatible systems, and a wizard is available to help users configure their preferences (2.7.7, 2.7.8).
18:25:19 [kford]
no objections.
18:26:07 [JAllan]
action: jeanne to add "Users can configure and restore accessibility preference settings (2.7.1, 2.7.3), and accessibility settings persist between sessions (2.7.2). Users can manage multiple sets of preference settings and restore groups of settings to defaults (2.7.4, 2.7.5), and adjust preference setting outside the user interface so the current user interface does not prevent access...
18:26:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-627 - Add "Users can configure and restore accessibility preference settings (2.7.1, 2.7.3), and accessibility settings persist between sessions (2.7.2). Users can manage multiple sets of preference settings and restore groups of settings to defaults (2.7.4, 2.7.5), and adjust preference setting outside the user interface so the current user interface does not prevent access... [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-10-27].
18:26:08 [JAllan]
...(2.7.6). It's also...
18:26:10 [JAllan]
...recommended that groups of settings can be transported to compatible systems, and a wizard be available to help users configure their preferences (2.7.7, 2.7.8)."
18:27:22 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to add 2.8 from survey 6 October as is.
18:27:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-628 - Add 2.8 from survey 6 October as is. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-10-27].
18:27:51 [JAllan]
topic: 2.9 summary
18:28:03 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110929/results#xq3
18:32:37 [Greg]
Discussion of Greg's proposal that 2.9.2 be changed from always requiring progress indicators to only requiring them be on by default, to make it 2.9.2 Retrieval Progress: By default, the user agent shows the progress of content retrieval. (Level A)"
18:33:08 [jeanne]
Resolution, 2.9.2 be changed from always requiring progress indicators to only requiring them be on by default, to make it 2.9.2 Retrieval Progress: By default, the user agent shows the progress of content retrieval. (Level A)"
18:33:11 [JAllan]
proposed summary: Users can extend the time limit for user input when such limits are controllable by the user agent (2.9.1); the user agent shows the progress of content in the process of downloading (2.9.2).
18:34:44 [jeanne]
Users can extend the time limit for user input when such limits are controllable by the user agent (2.9.1); by default, the user agent shows the progress of content in the process of downloading (2.9.2).
18:35:12 [Zakim]
-kford
18:35:13 [Zakim]
-Jan
18:35:15 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to update 2.9 with summary text above. (from meeting of 20 October)
18:35:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-629 - Update 2.9 with summary text above. (from meeting of 20 October) [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-10-27].
18:35:16 [Zakim]
-Greg_Lowney
18:35:18 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
18:35:24 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:35:26 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:35:27 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jim_Allan, kford, Jeanne, +1.617.435.aaaa, Jan, Greg_Lowney, KimP
18:35:33 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:35:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:35:54 [JAllan]
rrsagent, set logs public
18:36:18 [JAllan]
zakim, please part
18:36:18 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:37:53 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:37:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:38:41 [JAllan]
rrsgent, please part
18:38:52 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
18:38:52 [RRSAgent]
I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-actions.rdf :
18:38:52 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add to intent of 4.1.6 This applies to both user agent user interface (e.g. menus and dialog boxes) and to recognized aspects of the user content (e.g. HTML script using ARIA to indicate focus on custom controls)." [1]
18:38:52 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-irc#T17-32-20
18:38:52 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to fix 4.1.2 to add a carriage return under the first example. [2]
18:38:52 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-irc#T17-32-52
18:38:52 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jallan to respond to comment, covered in 4.1.2, 4.1.6 in general terms. forward Bolter comment. generally the comment is too specific [3]
18:38:52 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-irc#T17-37-10
18:38:52 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to change 4.1.6a to be "the bounding dimensions and coordinates of onscreen elements [4]
18:38:52 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-irc#T18-19-12
18:38:52 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add "Users can configure and restore accessibility preference settings (2.7.1, 2.7.3), and accessibility settings persist between sessions (2.7.2). Users can manage multiple sets of preference settings and restore groups of settings to defaults (2.7.4, 2.7.5), and adjust preference setting outside the user interface so the current user interface does not prevent access... [5]
18:38:52 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-irc#T18-26-07
18:38:52 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add 2.8 from survey 6 October as is. [6]
18:38:52 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-irc#T18-27-22
18:38:52 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update 2.9 with summary text above. (from meeting of 20 October) [7]
18:38:52 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-irc#T18-35-15