14:58:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:53 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/19-rdf-wg-irc
14:58:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:55 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:57 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:58:57 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:58 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:58:58 <trackbot> Date: 19 October 2011
14:59:57 <Scott_Bauer> Scott_Bauer has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:02 <AndyS1> zakim, who is on the phone
15:01:02 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', AndyS1
15:01:07 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:01:07 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus
15:01:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS1, danbri, SteveH, MacTed, LeeF, Guus, AndyS, mischat, ivan, gavinc, davidwood, NickH, ericP, manu, trackbot, manu1, sandro
15:01:12 <MacTed> Zakim, this is rdfwg
15:01:13 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:01:16 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:18 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:01:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], guus, Sandro, OpenLink_Software
15:01:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see Arnaud, Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS1, danbri, SteveH, MacTed, LeeF, Guus, AndyS, mischat, ivan, gavinc, davidwood, NickH, ericP, manu, trackbot, manu1, sandro
15:01:21 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:01:21 <MacTed> zakim, mute me
15:01:25 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:01:25 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:01:27 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:01:29 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:01:31 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:01:42 <pchampin_> pchampin_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:44 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:01:46 <Zakim> +gavinc
15:01:52 <ivan> zakim, drop me
15:01:53 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
15:01:54 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:02:02 <ivan> zakim dial ivan-voip
15:02:12 <Zakim> +Tony
15:02:20 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:02:20 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:02:21 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:02:25 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:02:28 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, Tony is me
15:02:28 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it
15:02:30 <AndyS1> zakim, IPcaller is me
15:02:30 <Zakim> +AndyS1; got it
15:02:36 <davidwood> zakim, code?
15:02:36 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), davidwood
15:02:48 <Zakim> +david
15:02:51 <Zakim> +Arnaud_LeHors
15:03:03 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:22 <Zakim> +Souri
15:03:42 <Zakim> +??P16
15:03:52 <pchampin_> zakim, ??P16 is me
15:03:52 <Zakim> +pchampin_; got it
15:03:59 <pchampin_> zakim, mute me
15:03:59 <Zakim> pchampin_ should now be muted
15:04:28 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:04:56 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:05:03 <Zakim> +AlexHall
15:05:40 <Zakim> +AZ
15:05:40 <gavinc> [08:03] <Zakim> +Souri
15:05:52 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:05:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see guus, Sandro, MacTed (muted), Ivan, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, AndyS1, david, Arnaud_LeHors (muted), Souri, pchampin_ (muted), AlexHall, AZ
15:05:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, AlexHall, Souri, pchampin_, Arnaud, Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS1, danbri, SteveH, MacTed, LeeF, Guus, AndyS, mischat, ivan, gavinc, davidwood, NickH,
15:05:59 <Zakim> ... ericP, manu, trackbot, manu1, sandro
15:06:06 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:06:12 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:06:12 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
15:06:49 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aaaa
15:06:50 <gavinc> scribenick: Souri
15:06:58 <zwu2> zakim, .aaaa is me
15:06:59 <Zakim> sorry, zwu2, I do not recognize a party named '.aaaa'
15:07:09 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aaaa is me
15:07:10 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
15:07:14 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:07:14 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
15:07:36 <Souri> guus: short meeting today, addressing couple of issues
15:07:45 <Zakim> + +1.415.586.aabb
15:07:47 <pchampin_> topic: admin
15:07:53 <AZ> The link is broken
15:07:59 <AZ> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-10-05
15:08:32 <davidwood> Minutes are linked from http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2 and the links worl
15:08:40 <Souri> davidwood: the link from F2F page works for me
15:09:20 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll has joined #rdf-wg
15:09:43 <Souri> guus: we will leave it and come back to it next time
15:09:54 <pchampin_> topic: action items
15:10:14 <Souri> guus: Issue-3.
15:10:46 <Souri> davidwood: old comments list for the old RDF group, summarizing things that we may want to take a look at
15:10:58 <Souri> ... get some students to look at them
15:11:01 <sandro> (the scribe -- Yves -- never did the post meeting stuff.    it's now in place, but still has various scribe errors.   http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-10-05 )
15:11:32 <JeremyCarroll> q- aabb
15:11:35 <Souri> ACTION: guus To find volunteers for ISSUE-3
15:11:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-111 - Find volunteers for ISSUE-3 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-10-26].
15:11:45 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, I am aabb
15:11:46 <Zakim> +JeremyCarroll; got it
15:11:58 <JeremyCarroll> ack JeremyCarroll
15:12:13 <Souri> guus: davidwood to work with Pat to see Issue-76 can be closed
15:12:38 <Souri> davidwood: action can be closed, but ISSUE-76 needs to remain open
15:13:02 <Zakim> +??P24
15:13:09 <NickH> Zakim, ??P24 is me
15:13:09 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
15:13:14 <NickH> Zakim, mute me
15:13:14 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
15:13:24 <pchampin_> I met Fabien RL recently; he's well, but has been very very busy
15:13:37 <Souri> guus: pending review action RDF/XML syntax spec
15:13:38 <gavinc> ack +1.415.586.aabb
15:14:27 <Souri> davidwood: we may need a new editor for that document
15:15:50 <Souri> guus: action for gen id continues
15:16:35 <Souri> guus: action item for richard: update the page on the graph task force, won't close it because richard is not here
15:17:51 <Souri> guus: Action-97 update for RDF Conepts, continues
15:18:25 <gavinc> ACTION-98?
15:18:25 <trackbot> ACTION-98 -- Sandro Hawke to rdf: and rdfs: namespace should resolve to something that meets best practices -- due 2011-10-20 -- OPEN
15:18:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/98
15:18:44 <gavinc> I think the theory was to assign it to Sandro until Ivan was here?
15:20:09 <Souri> Ivan: wonders if this is not something we should rather do when we have the RDF vocab doc updated, add the necessary RDFa for that instead of redoing
15:20:12 <pchampin_> +1 to using the RDFS rec + RDFa as the RDFS namespace document
15:22:45 <Souri> guus: taking up the minutes from F2F2
15:23:07 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:23:07 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:23:14 <sandro> +1 be explicit that we need to ask for feedback on terms like "RDF Graph"
15:23:53 <Souri> guus: explicitly need to ask for feedback on terms like RDF Graph
15:24:09 <Souri> guus: revisit once we get community feedback
15:24:49 <Souri> davidwood: SPARQL and Provenance group feedback as well
15:25:27 <Souri> ACTION: guus to add the resolution text on the graph terminology
15:25:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-112 - Add the resolution text on the graph terminology [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-10-26].
15:26:09 <gavinc> for example +☃ for test cases
15:26:28 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to mention class extension under 71
15:26:40 <Souri> guus: any more remarks on the first day's minutes
15:27:14 <Souri> guus: going to F2F2 day 2 minutes
15:27:52 <Zakim> +LeeF
15:28:02 <Zakim> -NickH
15:28:09 <gavinc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Sep/0083.html text for resolving issue-71
15:28:28 <Zakim> +??P24
15:28:32 <NickH> Zakim, ??P24 is me
15:28:32 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
15:28:35 <NickH> Zakim, mute me
15:28:35 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
15:29:48 <sandro> I understood it to be really sections, not appendices.
15:29:50 <JeremyCarroll> ACTION: JeremyCarroll to propose modification to issue 71 to give class ext to lang-string
15:29:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-113 - Propose modification to issue 71 to give class ext to lang-string [on Jeremy Carroll - due 2011-10-26].
15:30:30 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:30:44 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:31:07 <Souri> guus: accept the minutes for Boston F2F2 with the amendments
15:31:33 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me
15:31:33 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
15:32:19 <sandro> issue-21?
15:32:19 <trackbot> ISSUE-21 -- Can Node-IDs be shared between parts of a quad/multigraph format? -- open
15:32:19 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/21
15:32:19 <Souri> guus: two smaller issues: first, scope of bnode in TriG: does it raise new issues?
15:32:38 <Souri> sandro: it is already there ISSUE-21, right?
15:32:48 <Souri> guus: right
15:33:12 <sandro> issue-77?
15:33:13 <trackbot> ISSUE-77 -- Should we mark rdf:Seq as archaic (cf ISSUE-24) -- open
15:33:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/77
15:33:21 <ivan> q+
15:33:27 <Souri> guus: second issue ISSUE-77: should we mark rdf:seq as archaic
15:34:00 <ivan> ack JeremyCarroll 
15:34:01 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention class extension under 71
15:34:14 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute me
15:34:14 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
15:34:49 <ivan> q-
15:35:29 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to suggest minimize informative txt on Seq
15:35:47 <ivan> q+
15:35:56 <Souri> sandro: simple lists can be called well-formed lists, gently say don't use non-well-formed lists
15:36:45 <JeremyCarroll> ack me
15:36:46 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to suggest minimize informative txt on Seq
15:36:46 <gavinc> -0.5 to reopening archaic vs. deprecated conversation 
15:37:10 <AndyS1> Maybe something like "Using well-formed lists maximises interoperability"
15:37:41 <AndyS1> ... or "usability" (bit more opinioned)
15:37:44 <sandro> JeremyCarroll: move the "archaic" stuff to an appendix.
15:38:04 <Souri> jeremycarroll: put informative text in the appendix of the primer (use words such as 'archaic' in there ...)
15:39:19 <Souri> jeremycarroll: ... have a link to the old text
15:40:55 <Souri> Ivan: its not only a question of labeling them as archaic etc, do you also change the RDFsemantics such as rdf:_1, rdf:_2, etc. These are problems for inferencing because they lead to infinite number of things. Propose taking them out of RDF and RDFS core.
15:41:16 <Souri> Ivan: these are not editorial changes
15:41:32 <pchampin_> s/are not/are not only/
15:42:17 <Souri> ... does the RDF and RDFS rules need to take care of the rdf:_n? if not, we should adjust them ...
15:42:24 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to comment on ivan's comment
15:42:34 <Souri> pfps: agree with Ivan, might be a good idea
15:42:37 <Guus> ack ivan
15:42:40 <JeremyCarroll> ack me
15:42:41 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to comment on ivan's comment
15:42:49 <Souri> ... not just an RDF and RDFS only issue
15:43:53 <Zakim> -NickH
15:43:59 <pfps> I don't think that anyone at the OWL level worries about the infinite base of RDFS, as there are an infinite number of entailments in OWL anyway.
15:44:09 <AndyS1> rdfs:member is used.
15:44:09 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute me
15:44:09 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
15:44:13 <ivan> q+
15:44:30 <Guus> ack ivan
15:44:37 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy said that ivan's point, that some RDF semantics rules are complicated for rdf:_8 etc
15:44:41 <Zakim> +??P24
15:44:42 <NickH> Zakim, ??P24 is me
15:44:43 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
15:44:44 <NickH> Zakim, mute me
15:44:44 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
15:44:56 <pchampin_> jeremy: agree with Ivan, and I don't think people that use rdf:Seq are relying on rdf:_n implying membership
15:44:57 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: does anyone really use these rules?
15:45:12 <gavinc> rdfs:member is implemented a property function in Jena ARQ isn't it?
15:45:45 <AndyS1> gavinc, yes (usually) and also by Jena rules for RDFS so API as well as SPARQL
15:45:46 <SteveH> rdfs:member was implemented as an inference rule in 3store, but no-ones asked for it in 4store
15:45:52 <pfps> in some sense the gain may be too small to overcome *any* pain, so why bother even trying
15:45:54 <Souri> Ivan: theoretical possibility of a problem ... SPARQL on a member of a bag or seq may rely on rdf:_n being subproperty of rdfs:member
15:46:07 <ivan> ok SteveH, good to know that
15:46:19 <AndyS1> People use rdfs:member  a bit : as list more common, list:member used more.
15:46:20 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute me
15:46:20 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll was already muted, JeremyCarroll
15:46:22 <gavinc> SteveH, I did! And you said to use lists instead... which we did ;)
15:46:44 <SteveH> gavinc, oh! sorry :) doubt it was me that said use lists though
15:46:54 <SteveH> ok, at least one person asked for rdfs:member :)
15:47:47 <Souri> Ivan: have a slight difference with sandro
15:47:56 <SteveH> FWIW, in the last commonly-used schema I had a hand in we had to invent our own ordinal system as both Seq and List weren't up to the job
15:48:18 <SteveH> [ :foo "a" ; :ordinal 1 ] etc.
15:48:21 <Souri> guus: hopefully by next week we can get to the resolution
15:49:02 <sandro> s/have a slight difference with sandro/one problem is that Sandro's proposal uses specific terminology, but Guus says that's already decided/
15:49:08 <pfps> +1
15:49:20 <pfps> +1 to sandro
15:49:45 <gavinc> +1 for progress 
15:49:48 <AndyS1> email better for wordsmithing IMO
15:49:57 <Souri> +1 to next week or emails
15:50:17 <JeremyCarroll> +1 for e-mail, I want to get feedback
15:50:39 <gavinc> unmute me
15:50:43 <gavinc> Zakim, unmute me
15:50:43 <Zakim> gavinc should no longer be muted
15:50:44 <AndyS1> AndyS -- regrets for next week: ISWC
15:51:02 <ivan> Ivan -- regrets for next week: ISWC
15:52:03 <pfps> could we set up a room at ISWC for the meeting?
15:52:12 <Souri> guus: I'll be at ISWC as well, but expect to join telcon via IRC
15:53:08 <Zakim> -LeeF
15:53:16 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:53:17 <Zakim> -NickH
15:53:20 <gavinc> trackbot, end meeting
15:53:20 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:53:20 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been guus, Sandro, MacTed, Ivan, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, AndyS1, david, Arnaud_LeHors, Souri, pchampin_, AlexHall, AZ, zwu2, +1.415.586.aabb,
15:53:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:53:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/19-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
15:53:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:53:22 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/19-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
15:53:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: guus To find volunteers for ISSUE-3 [1]
15:53:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/19-rdf-wg-irc#T15-11-35
15:53:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: guus to add the resolution text on the graph terminology [2]
15:53:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/19-rdf-wg-irc#T15-25-27
15:53:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JeremyCarroll to propose modification to issue 71 to give class ext to lang-string [3]
15:53:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/19-rdf-wg-irc#T15-29-50
15:53:23 <gavinc> Done ;)
15:53:23 <Zakim> ... JeremyCarroll, NickH, LeeF, Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:53:29 <Zakim> -AZ
15:53:35 <Zakim> -AlexHall