IRC log of css on 2011-10-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:06:37 [RRSAgent]
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15:06:37 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/19-css-irc
15:06:43 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:06:43 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 54 minutes
15:06:50 [glazou]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:28:35 [arno]
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15:37:30 [miketaylr]
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15:48:09 [danielweck]
danielweck has joined #css
15:54:07 [antonp]
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15:56:02 [glazou]
Zakim, code?
15:56:02 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
15:56:54 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:01 [Zakim]
+??P7
15:57:12 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P7 is me
15:57:12 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:57:40 [glazou]
Zakim, mute me
15:57:41 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
15:57:54 [johnjansen]
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15:58:05 [Zakim]
-glazou
15:58:06 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
15:58:06 [Zakim]
Attendees were glazou
15:58:08 [sylvaing]
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15:58:24 [glazou]
sigh
15:58:26 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:58:35 [Zakim]
+??P7
15:58:41 [danielweck]
Zakim, ??P7 is me
15:58:41 [Zakim]
+danielweck; got it
15:58:42 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
15:58:46 [johnjansen]
zakim, microsoft has johnjansen
15:58:46 [Zakim]
+johnjansen; got it
15:58:49 [Zakim]
+??P11
15:58:54 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P11 is me
15:58:54 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:59:08 [Zakim]
+sylvaing
15:59:34 [Zakim]
+ +1.510.364.aaaa
16:00:04 [Zakim]
+??P20
16:00:39 [Zakim]
+??P0
16:00:50 [glazou]
Zakim, aaaa is ericmueller
16:00:50 [Zakim]
+ericmueller; got it
16:01:24 [Zakim]
+stearns
16:01:37 [antonp]
Zakim, ??P20 is me
16:01:38 [Zakim]
+antonp; got it
16:01:39 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P0 is fantasai
16:01:39 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:01:49 [glazou]
Zakim, who is noisy?
16:02:00 [Zakim]
glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (3%), stearns (97%)
16:02:08 [Zakim]
-antonp
16:02:24 [bradk]
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16:02:34 [stearns]
muted now
16:02:49 [Zakim]
+??P51
16:02:55 [stearns]
fans in my office are loud
16:02:58 [antonp]
Zakim, ??P51 is me
16:02:58 [Zakim]
+antonp; got it
16:02:59 [cesar]
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16:03:04 [Zakim]
+bradk
16:03:18 [Zakim]
+??P53
16:03:32 [kojiishi]
zakim, ??p53 is me
16:03:32 [Zakim]
+kojiishi; got it
16:03:35 [Zakim]
+fantasai.a
16:03:38 [Zakim]
-fantasai
16:03:43 [Zakim]
+Bert
16:03:55 [Zakim]
+ +569011aabb
16:04:02 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
16:04:04 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft has me
16:04:04 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:04:10 [glazou]
Zakim, aabb is cesar
16:04:10 [Zakim]
+cesar; got it
16:04:26 [glazou]
Zakim, who is here?
16:04:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see danielweck, [Microsoft], glazou, sylvaing, ericmueller, stearns, antonp, bradk, kojiishi, fantasai.a, Bert, cesar, [Microsoft.a]
16:04:30 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has arronei
16:04:32 [Zakim]
On IRC I see cesar, bradk, sylvaing, johnjansen, antonp, danielweck, arno, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, kojiishi, stearns, dbaron, shepazu, hober, nimbupani, Martijnc, arronei, lhnz,
16:04:35 [Zakim]
... Bert, gsnedders, plinss, fantasai, krijnh, ed, TabAtkins, CSSWG_LogBot, Hixie, pjrm, trackbot
16:05:03 [kimberlyblessing]
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16:05:08 [Zakim]
+kimberlyblessing
16:05:12 [glazou]
Regrets from Apple reps, company event
16:05:26 [Zakim]
+howcome
16:05:37 [howcome]
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16:05:44 [szilles]
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16:06:10 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
16:06:40 [fantasai]
glazou: Peter is sick. I might need a fallback chair during the AC meetings at TPAC.
16:06:44 [fantasai]
glazou: Any extra items?
16:06:59 [fantasai]
Topic: CSS Speech
16:07:01 [danielweck]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-speech
16:07:37 [fantasai]
danielweck: I think we need a bit more discusison on issue 1
16:07:45 [fantasai]
danielweck: 2 is resolved last week
16:07:48 [fantasai]
danielweck: issue 3
16:08:27 [fantasai]
danielweck: Christoph proposes to rename voice-volume to volume-voice. I rejected on consistency with other voice-* properties; his arguments didn't seem convincing enough.
16:08:45 [fantasai]
danielweck: Where does the WG stand?
16:08:55 [danielweck]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0109.html
16:09:32 [fantasai]
glazou, fantasai, szilles agree with danielweck
16:09:41 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Do not rename voice-volume
16:10:36 [fantasai]
danielweck: Issue 4, Gregory was saying that some of the property we marked at-risk should not be dropped
16:10:41 [oyvind]
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16:10:53 [fantasai]
danielweck: That's not really up to us, it's up to implementations, so I marked this as an invalid concern
16:10:59 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.aa]
16:11:00 [fantasai]
glazou: Absolutely, at-risk does not mean it's dropped
16:11:11 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: No change for issue 4
16:11:56 [fantasai]
danielweck: Gregory put forward some concerns with voice-rate, but it seems to me that the prose is correct, what he wants is already in the spec.
16:12:05 [Zakim]
+plinss
16:12:06 [fantasai]
danielweck: There is an error in the prose, which I fixed.
16:12:23 [danielweck]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Oct/0011.html
16:12:56 [fantasai]
danielweck: Maybe I misunderstand his point, or maybe he misread the spec.
16:14:35 [fantasai]
szilles: I think he was asking to use "slow" when talking about cutting the speed by half and "fast" when multiplying it > 100%
16:14:59 [fantasai]
szilles: "For example, 50% means the speaking-rate gets multiplied by .5"
16:15:05 [fantasai]
danielweck: Ok, I will add that in my tracker
16:15:34 [fantasai]
danielweck: Issue 6 is proposal to add 'play-during'
16:16:13 [fantasai]
danielweck: I wasn't there when first CSS3 Speech drafts were produced. What I did notice was that play-during, which was in CSS2.1, disappeared in CSS3 Speech from the first draft that was published
16:16:21 [fantasai]
danielweck: play-during is similar to <bgsound>
16:16:46 [fantasai]
danielweck: This feature would introduce concurrency in the CSS Speech audo output -- currently everything is sequential
16:17:21 [fantasai]
danielweck: Apply 'play-during' to nested elements, and the complexity explodes.
16:18:24 [fantasai]
danielweck: So my proposal is to reject reintroducing this property
16:19:20 [danielweck]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Oct/0423.html
16:19:23 [fantasai]
glazou: CSS2.1 Aural Appendix is informative, says something about adding aural capabilities later
16:19:51 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think it's fair to reject feature requests. CSS Speech should be feature-frozen at this point. We can consider it for a future level.
16:20:33 [fantasai]
^danielweck: Also, I think this mixes aural styling with speech synthesizing
16:20:48 [fantasai]
szilles: I agree with fantasai, but not sure I buy the argument it doesn't belong here.
16:21:17 [fantasai]
danielweck: CSS Speech was intended to focus on speech synthesis
16:21:34 [fantasai]
glazou: play-during is not strictly related to speech
16:22:23 [Rossen]
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16:23:05 [fantasai]
fantasai: [...]
16:23:24 [fantasai]
szilles: It might be a reasonable request, just not for this version
16:23:31 [Zakim]
+arno
16:23:47 [fantasai]
RESLVED: Not adding 'play-during' to CSS3 Speech; may consider for later level.
16:23:57 [szilles]
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16:24:42 [fantasai]
danielweck: Issue about using SPAN element in examples, also to create an HTML5 default stylesheet
16:25:28 [fantasai]
danielweck: I think the default stylesheet for HTML5 is out-of-scope for the spec, should be tackled cross-wg after HTML5 settles down
16:25:44 [fantasai]
danielweck: I note CSS2 includes an HTML4 style sheet
16:26:06 [fantasai]
szilles: So who's responsible for that?
16:26:12 [fantasai]
glazou: HTMLWG, of course
16:26:46 [fantasai]
glazou: It's not our role to define a default stylehsheet for all dialects
16:27:34 [fantasai]
glazou: You could add an example that styles em / strong
16:28:10 [Zakim]
-danielweck
16:28:15 [danielweck]
coming back
16:28:22 [fantasai]
fantasai: I don't think you need to give an exhaustive HTML stylesheet, but I think it's fair to replace the SPAN in the example with EM
16:28:27 [Zakim]
+??P7
16:28:31 [danielweck]
Zakim, ??P7 is me
16:28:31 [Zakim]
+danielweck; got it
16:29:01 [fantasai]
issue 8 - editorial
16:29:16 [fantasai]
danielweck: Issue 9 is about cryptic hyperlink text
16:29:44 [fantasai]
danielweck: This applies to all the specs in CSS: the CSSWG preprocessor generates poor index text for screen readers
16:29:58 [fantasai]
Bert: I can change it, but I don't know what to change it to.
16:31:35 [fantasai]
fantasai: Because this is a spec that's targetted at people who have trouble with this kind of indexing, I think it's fair to accept that this is an issue that must be fixed for CR, even though it's editorial.
16:31:51 [fantasai]
ACTION: Bert fix indexer to be speech-friendly
16:31:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-372 - Fix indexer to be speech-friendly [on Bert Bos - due 2011-10-26].
16:32:22 [fantasai]
danielweck: issue 10 is about ARIA attributes, and how to exploit that info from the CSS perspective
16:32:49 [fantasai]
danielweck: This is about recommending authoring practice; selectors can already do their part.
16:33:02 [fantasai]
danielweck: I closed this as out-of-scope, seems more appropriate for WAI/WCAG
16:33:33 [fantasai]
danielweck: There were a number of issues that were about similar issues
16:33:54 [fantasai]
glazou: I guess this would be an excellent item for the HCG
16:34:12 [fantasai]
glazou: So when you are ready, even if you don't have an answer from Greg, let's raise this to the HCG
16:34:20 [fantasai]
danielweck: Ok, I will compile a list of the suggestions people have made
16:34:46 [fantasai]
danielweck: When I talked to the Audio WG, they weren't aware of the existence of CSS Speech
16:35:19 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Issue 10 out-of-scope
16:35:42 [fantasai]
danielweck: Issue 11 is a suggestion to introduce 'louder' and 'softer'.
16:36:14 [fantasai]
danielweck: We already have keywords including loud and soft, and a decibel value that adjusts from the keywords
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16:36:38 [fantasai]
danielweck: I'm reluctant to introduce these kewyords when decibels are pretty easy to use already
16:37:12 [fantasai]
danielweck: We already note that +/- 6db is approximately X amount lounder/softer in human perception
16:37:54 [fantasai]
danielweck: We'd also have to introduce a mapping to SSML, since they don't map directly
16:39:17 [fantasai]
szilles: font-size has 'smaller' and 'larger' keywords
16:39:24 [fantasai]
fantasai: Don't those key up and down the keyword scale?
16:39:46 [fantasai]
danielweck: Usually audio systems use decibels
16:40:46 [fantasai]
fantasai: You could have them compute to different keywords
16:41:08 [fantasai]
danielweck explains how the keywords work and why they are UA/user-defined
16:42:15 [fantasai]
szilles: Some authors don't want to understand audio physics and work it out
16:43:25 [fantasai]
danielweck: We have a note about +/- 6db in the prose already. We could define what increasing the sound to make it louder or softer means in decibels, without referring to any keyword
16:43:37 [fantasai]
danielweck: These terms mean something to authors, so that would help
16:45:36 [fantasai]
fantasai: If we introduce these keywords, they shouldn't map to fixed decibels -- we can already do fixed decibels. They should operate on the keyword scale
16:46:13 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
16:46:22 [glazou]
glazou: similarly we don't have fast/slower for voice-rate, maybe a note is needed
16:46:28 [Zakim]
-howcome
16:46:33 [glazou]
s/fast/faster
16:46:39 [fantasai]
fantasai: Didn't we used to have a numeric scale
16:46:41 [fantasai]
?
16:48:21 [fantasai]
fantasai: e.g. 0-100 would map to the keyword range
16:48:28 [fantasai]
glazou: I don't think 0 silent 1 x-soft makes sense
16:48:39 [fantasai]
fantasai: You could make 0 x-soft
16:48:43 [fantasai]
glazou: that would be confusing
16:49:02 [glazou]
glazou: authors will always interpret 'voice-volume: 0' as silent
16:49:25 [fantasai]
szilles: I think the best thing would be to improve the note for authors to explain how to make the sound louder or softer
16:49:49 [szilles]
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16:49:59 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: For issue 11, improve informative wording
16:50:25 [fantasai]
danielweck: Proposal to drop voice-volume: silent
16:50:57 [fantasai]
danielweck: Commenter notes that setting silent, the element doesn't disappear from the audio stream, it just has zero amplitude while the speech output lasts.
16:51:03 [fantasai]
danielweck: Equivalent to visibility: hidden
16:51:19 [fantasai]
danielweck: By contrast we have speak: none / display: none, which remove the element from the stream
16:51:31 [fantasai]
danielweck: The commenter says this is dangerous wrt accessibility/usability
16:52:01 [fantasai]
danielweck: I argue that it's a typical case for the author to set silent on a long piece of content, just as it's stupid to have a page with large swaths of blank space
16:52:50 [fantasai]
danielweck: There are use cases where, e.g. animating from silent, or leaving gaps in the audio stream and scripting that to read or not
16:53:06 [fantasai]
danielweck: I don't think we should be dropping the feature because someone might to something stupid with it
16:53:55 [fantasai]
glazou: I have a side-comment wrt silent
16:54:10 [fantasai]
glazou: Usually muting / unmuting reverts to original values
16:54:20 [fantasai]
glazou: You can't retrieve that value, except programmatically
16:54:42 [fantasai]
danielweck: Yes, but I don't think we can easily solve that in CSS3 Speech
16:56:01 [fantasai]
smfr: This is a common problem with display: none
16:57:14 [fantasai]
fantasai: The 'speak' property does not have the 'display' none problem -- we dealt with that by splitting it from speak-as
16:57:44 [fantasai]
fantasai: wrt silent / not-silent switch, you could solve that by preserving the inherited value along with the 'silent' keyword, and introducing a 'restore' value that removes the 'silent' part
16:57:59 [fantasai]
danielweck: I think adding that would complicate the spec's mapping to SSML
16:58:11 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: no change for issue 12
16:58:21 [fantasai]
danielweck: issue 13
16:58:22 [Zakim]
-danielweck
16:58:51 [Martijnc]
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16:58:56 [Zakim]
+??P7
16:58:57 [danielweck]
Zakim, ??P7 is me
16:58:58 [Zakim]
+danielweck; got it
16:59:30 [Martijnc]
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16:59:33 [fantasai]
fantasai explains speak /speak-as issue
16:59:51 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Proposal to re-merge 'speak' + 'speak-as' rejected, for reasons that they were split.
17:00:23 [fantasai]
danielweck: pause properties take <time>, there's a proposal to restrict the range of values allowed in <time>
17:00:30 [fantasai]
danielweck: I proprose to reject that
17:00:44 [fantasai]
danielweck: I don't want to define good authoring practice by restricting the values
17:01:08 [fantasai]
szilles: You should respond saying that some of the things they're asking for should go into authoring guidelines
17:01:39 [fantasai]
danielweck: Someone also made a point about using MQ to address specific speech contexts, explain e.g. what kind of disability user might have, etc.
17:01:49 [fantasai]
danielweck: I've worked in device adaptation, and this seems very risky
17:01:57 [fantasai]
danielweck: and definitely out-of-scope for CSS Speech
17:02:02 [shepazu]
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17:02:10 [fantasai]
danielweck: Also MQ addresses hardware requirements, not user capabilities
17:02:34 [bradk]
10:02 am. I have to sign off.
17:02:55 [bradk]
bye
17:03:04 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: No change for issue 14 request to restrict <time> values
17:03:18 [Zakim]
-ericmueller
17:03:19 [Zakim]
-danielweck
17:03:19 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.a]
17:03:20 [Zakim]
-arno
17:03:20 [Zakim]
-kimberlyblessing
17:03:22 [Zakim]
-glazou
17:03:23 [Zakim]
-kojiishi
17:03:23 [Zakim]
-cesar
17:03:25 [Zakim]
-antonp
17:03:27 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
17:03:29 [Zakim]
-stearns
17:03:29 [antonp]
antonp has left #css
17:03:31 [Zakim]
-Bert
17:03:34 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: MQ feature request for user-capability-querying out-of-scope
17:03:36 [Zakim]
-bradk
17:03:36 [cesar]
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17:03:39 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.aa]
17:03:41 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
17:03:46 [Zakim]
-fantasai.a
17:03:56 [Zakim]
-plinss
17:05:22 [Zakim]
-sylvaing
17:05:23 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:05:24 [Zakim]
Attendees were danielweck, johnjansen, glazou, sylvaing, +1.510.364.aaaa, ericmueller, stearns, antonp, fantasai, bradk, kojiishi, Bert, +569011aabb, [Microsoft], arronei, cesar,
17:05:27 [Zakim]
... kimberlyblessing, howcome, SteveZ, plinss, arno
17:05:54 [dbaron]
aargh, I remembered we had a telecon at 9am and forgot by noon.
17:05:58 [dbaron]
Problem with being in a different time zone
17:06:21 [dbaron]
I should really figure out why my phone calendar alarms don't make any sound anymore...
17:17:13 [oyvind]
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21:12:07 [fantasai]
We should introduce a numeric scale for voice-volume that goes from 0 to 11 :)
21:14:22 [stearns]
the tufnel unit
21:18:56 [fantasai]
what kind of scale are volume knobs on anyway?
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