15:06:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
15:06:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/19-css-irc
15:06:43 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:06:43 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 54 minutes
15:06:50 <glazou> rrsagent, make logs public
15:28:35 <arno> arno has joined #css
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15:48:09 <danielweck> danielweck has joined #css
15:54:07 <antonp> antonp has joined #css
15:56:02 <glazou> Zakim, code?
15:56:02 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
15:56:54 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:01 <Zakim> +??P7
15:57:12 <glazou> Zakim, ??P7 is me
15:57:12 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:57:40 <glazou> Zakim, mute me
15:57:41 <Zakim> sorry, glazou, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
15:57:54 <johnjansen> johnjansen has joined #css
15:58:05 <Zakim> -glazou
15:58:06 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
15:58:06 <Zakim> Attendees were glazou
15:58:08 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
15:58:24 <glazou> sigh
15:58:26 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:58:35 <Zakim> +??P7
15:58:41 <danielweck> Zakim, ??P7 is me
15:58:41 <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
15:58:42 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:58:46 <johnjansen> zakim, microsoft has johnjansen
15:58:46 <Zakim> +johnjansen; got it
15:58:49 <Zakim> +??P11
15:58:54 <glazou> Zakim, ??P11 is me
15:58:54 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:59:08 <Zakim> +sylvaing
15:59:34 <Zakim> + +1.510.364.aaaa
16:00:04 <Zakim> +??P20
16:00:39 <Zakim> +??P0
16:00:50 <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is ericmueller
16:00:50 <Zakim> +ericmueller; got it
16:01:24 <Zakim> +stearns
16:01:37 <antonp> Zakim, ??P20 is me
16:01:38 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
16:01:39 <glazou> Zakim, ??P0 is fantasai 
16:01:39 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
16:01:49 <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
16:02:00 <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (3%), stearns (97%)
16:02:08 <Zakim> -antonp
16:02:24 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
16:02:34 <stearns> muted now
16:02:49 <Zakim> +??P51
16:02:55 <stearns> fans in my office are loud
16:02:58 <antonp> Zakim, ??P51 is me
16:02:58 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
16:02:59 <cesar> cesar has joined #css
16:03:04 <Zakim> +bradk
16:03:18 <Zakim> +??P53
16:03:32 <kojiishi> zakim, ??p53 is me
16:03:32 <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
16:03:35 <Zakim> +fantasai.a
16:03:38 <Zakim> -fantasai
16:03:43 <Zakim> +Bert
16:03:55 <Zakim> + +569011aabb
16:04:02 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:04:04 <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
16:04:04 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:04:10 <glazou> Zakim, aabb is cesar 
16:04:10 <Zakim> +cesar; got it
16:04:26 <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
16:04:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see danielweck, [Microsoft], glazou, sylvaing, ericmueller, stearns, antonp, bradk, kojiishi, fantasai.a, Bert, cesar, [Microsoft.a]
16:04:30 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has arronei
16:04:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see cesar, bradk, sylvaing, johnjansen, antonp, danielweck, arno, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, kojiishi, stearns, dbaron, shepazu, hober, nimbupani, Martijnc, arronei, lhnz,
16:04:35 <Zakim> ... Bert, gsnedders, plinss, fantasai, krijnh, ed, TabAtkins, CSSWG_LogBot, Hixie, pjrm, trackbot
16:05:03 <kimberlyblessing> kimberlyblessing has joined #css
16:05:08 <Zakim> +kimberlyblessing
16:05:12 <glazou> Regrets from Apple reps, company event
16:05:26 <Zakim> +howcome
16:05:37 <howcome> howcome has joined #css
16:05:44 <szilles> szilles has joined #css
16:06:10 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:06:40 <fantasai> glazou: Peter is sick. I might need a fallback chair during the AC meetings at TPAC.
16:06:44 <fantasai> glazou: Any extra items?
16:06:59 <fantasai> Topic: CSS Speech
16:07:01 <danielweck> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-speech
16:07:37 <fantasai> danielweck: I think we need a bit more discusison on issue 1
16:07:45 <fantasai> danielweck: 2 is resolved last week
16:07:48 <fantasai> danielweck: issue 3
16:08:27 <fantasai> danielweck: Christoph proposes to rename voice-volume to volume-voice. I rejected on consistency with other voice-* properties; his arguments didn't seem convincing enough.
16:08:45 <fantasai> danielweck: Where does the WG stand?
16:08:55 <danielweck> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0109.html
16:09:32 <fantasai> glazou, fantasai, szilles agree with danielweck 
16:09:41 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Do not rename voice-volume
16:10:36 <fantasai> danielweck: Issue 4, Gregory was saying that some of the property we marked at-risk should not be dropped
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16:10:53 <fantasai> danielweck: That's not really up to us, it's up to implementations, so I marked this as an invalid concern
16:10:59 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
16:11:00 <fantasai> glazou: Absolutely, at-risk does not mean it's dropped
16:11:11 <fantasai> RESOLVED: No change for issue 4
16:11:56 <fantasai> danielweck: Gregory put forward some concerns with voice-rate, but it seems to me that the prose is correct, what he wants is already in the spec.
16:12:05 <Zakim> +plinss
16:12:06 <fantasai> danielweck: There is an error in the prose, which I fixed.
16:12:23 <danielweck> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Oct/0011.html
16:12:56 <fantasai> danielweck: Maybe I misunderstand his point, or maybe he misread the spec.
16:14:35 <fantasai> szilles: I think he was asking to use "slow" when talking about cutting the speed by half and "fast" when multiplying it > 100%
16:14:59 <fantasai> szilles: "For example, 50% means the speaking-rate gets multiplied by .5"
16:15:05 <fantasai> danielweck: Ok, I will add that in my tracker
16:15:34 <fantasai> danielweck: Issue 6 is proposal to add 'play-during'
16:16:13 <fantasai> danielweck: I wasn't there when first CSS3 Speech drafts were produced. What I did notice was that play-during, which was in CSS2.1, disappeared in CSS3 Speech from the first draft that was published
16:16:21 <fantasai> danielweck: play-during is similar to <bgsound>
16:16:46 <fantasai> danielweck: This feature would introduce concurrency in the CSS Speech audo output -- currently everything is sequential
16:17:21 <fantasai> danielweck: Apply 'play-during' to nested elements, and the complexity explodes.
16:18:24 <fantasai> danielweck: So my proposal is to reject reintroducing this property
16:19:20 <danielweck> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Oct/0423.html
16:19:23 <fantasai> glazou: CSS2.1 Aural Appendix is informative, says something about adding aural capabilities later
16:19:51 <fantasai> fantasai: I think it's fair to reject feature requests. CSS Speech should be feature-frozen at this point. We can consider it for a future level.
16:20:33 <fantasai> ^danielweck: Also, I think this mixes aural styling with speech synthesizing
16:20:48 <fantasai> szilles: I agree with fantasai, but not sure I buy the argument it doesn't belong here.
16:21:17 <fantasai> danielweck: CSS Speech was intended to focus on speech synthesis
16:21:34 <fantasai> glazou: play-during is not strictly related to speech
16:22:23 <Rossen> Rossen has joined #css
16:23:05 <fantasai> fantasai: [...]
16:23:24 <fantasai> szilles: It might be a reasonable request, just not for this version
16:23:31 <Zakim> +arno
16:23:47 <fantasai> RESLVED: Not adding 'play-during' to CSS3 Speech; may consider for later level.
16:23:57 <szilles> szilles has joined #css
16:24:42 <fantasai> danielweck: Issue about using SPAN element in examples, also to create an HTML5 default stylesheet
16:25:28 <fantasai> danielweck: I think the default stylesheet for HTML5 is out-of-scope for the spec, should be tackled cross-wg after HTML5 settles down
16:25:44 <fantasai> danielweck: I note CSS2 includes an HTML4 style sheet
16:26:06 <fantasai> szilles: So who's responsible for that?
16:26:12 <fantasai> glazou: HTMLWG, of course
16:26:46 <fantasai> glazou: It's not our role to define a default stylehsheet for all dialects
16:27:34 <fantasai> glazou: You could add an example that styles em / strong
16:28:10 <Zakim> -danielweck
16:28:15 <danielweck> coming back
16:28:22 <fantasai> fantasai: I don't think you need to give an exhaustive HTML stylesheet, but I think it's fair to replace the SPAN in the example with EM
16:28:27 <Zakim> +??P7
16:28:31 <danielweck> Zakim, ??P7 is me
16:28:31 <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
16:29:01 <fantasai> issue 8 - editorial
16:29:16 <fantasai> danielweck: Issue 9 is about cryptic hyperlink text
16:29:44 <fantasai> danielweck: This applies to all the specs in CSS: the CSSWG preprocessor generates poor index text for screen readers
16:29:58 <fantasai> Bert: I can change it, but I don't know what to change it to.
16:31:35 <fantasai> fantasai: Because this is a spec that's targetted at people who have trouble with this kind of indexing, I think it's fair to accept that this is an issue that must be fixed for CR, even though it's editorial.
16:31:51 <fantasai> ACTION: Bert fix indexer to be speech-friendly
16:31:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-372 - Fix indexer to be speech-friendly [on Bert Bos - due 2011-10-26].
16:32:22 <fantasai> danielweck: issue 10 is about ARIA attributes, and how to exploit that info from the CSS perspective
16:32:49 <fantasai> danielweck: This is about recommending authoring practice; selectors can already do their part.
16:33:02 <fantasai> danielweck: I closed this as out-of-scope, seems more appropriate for WAI/WCAG
16:33:33 <fantasai> danielweck: There were a number of issues that were about similar issues
16:33:54 <fantasai> glazou: I guess this would be an excellent item for the HCG
16:34:12 <fantasai> glazou: So when you are ready, even if you don't have an answer from Greg, let's raise this to the HCG
16:34:20 <fantasai> danielweck: Ok, I will compile a list of the suggestions people have made
16:34:46 <fantasai> danielweck: When I talked to the Audio WG, they weren't aware of the existence of CSS Speech
16:35:19 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Issue 10 out-of-scope
16:35:42 <fantasai> danielweck: Issue 11 is a suggestion to introduce 'louder' and 'softer'.
16:36:14 <fantasai> danielweck: We already have keywords including loud and soft, and a decibel value that adjusts from the keywords
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16:36:38 <fantasai> danielweck: I'm reluctant to introduce these kewyords when decibels are pretty easy to use already
16:37:12 <fantasai> danielweck: We already note that +/- 6db is approximately X amount lounder/softer in human perception
16:37:54 <fantasai> danielweck: We'd also have to introduce a mapping to SSML, since they don't map directly
16:39:17 <fantasai> szilles: font-size has 'smaller' and 'larger' keywords
16:39:24 <fantasai> fantasai: Don't those key up and down the keyword scale?
16:39:46 <fantasai> danielweck: Usually audio systems use decibels
16:40:46 <fantasai> fantasai: You could have them compute to different keywords
16:41:08 <fantasai> danielweck explains how the keywords work and why they are UA/user-defined
16:42:15 <fantasai> szilles: Some authors don't want to understand audio physics and work it out
16:43:25 <fantasai> danielweck: We have a note about +/- 6db in the prose already. We could define what increasing the sound to make it louder or softer means in decibels, without referring to any keyword
16:43:37 <fantasai> danielweck: These terms mean something to authors, so that would help
16:45:36 <fantasai> fantasai: If we introduce these keywords, they shouldn't map to fixed decibels -- we can already do fixed decibels. They should operate on the keyword scale
16:46:13 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:46:22 <glazou> glazou: similarly we don't have fast/slower for voice-rate, maybe a note is needed
16:46:28 <Zakim> -howcome
16:46:33 <glazou> s/fast/faster
16:46:39 <fantasai> fantasai: Didn't we used to have a numeric scale
16:46:41 <fantasai> ?
16:48:21 <fantasai> fantasai: e.g. 0-100 would map to the keyword range
16:48:28 <fantasai> glazou: I don't think 0 silent 1 x-soft makes sense
16:48:39 <fantasai> fantasai: You could make 0 x-soft
16:48:43 <fantasai> glazou: that would be confusing
16:49:02 <glazou> glazou: authors will always interpret 'voice-volume: 0' as silent
16:49:25 <fantasai> szilles: I think the best thing would be to improve the note for authors to explain how to make the sound louder or softer
16:49:49 <szilles> szilles has joined #css
16:49:59 <fantasai> RESOLVED: For issue 11, improve informative wording
16:50:25 <fantasai> danielweck: Proposal to drop voice-volume: silent
16:50:57 <fantasai> danielweck: Commenter notes that setting silent, the element doesn't disappear from the audio stream, it just has zero amplitude while the speech output lasts.
16:51:03 <fantasai> danielweck: Equivalent to visibility: hidden
16:51:19 <fantasai> danielweck: By contrast we have speak: none / display: none, which remove the element from the stream
16:51:31 <fantasai> danielweck: The commenter says this is dangerous wrt accessibility/usability
16:52:01 <fantasai> danielweck: I argue that it's a typical case for the author to set silent on a long piece of content, just as it's stupid to have a page with large swaths of blank space
16:52:50 <fantasai> danielweck: There are use cases where, e.g. animating from silent, or leaving gaps in the audio stream and scripting that to read or not
16:53:06 <fantasai> danielweck: I don't think we should be dropping the feature because someone might to something stupid with it
16:53:55 <fantasai> glazou: I have a side-comment wrt silent
16:54:10 <fantasai> glazou: Usually muting / unmuting reverts to original values
16:54:20 <fantasai> glazou: You can't retrieve that value, except programmatically
16:54:42 <fantasai> danielweck: Yes, but I don't think we can easily solve that in CSS3 Speech
16:56:01 <fantasai> smfr: This is a common problem with display: none
16:57:14 <fantasai> fantasai: The 'speak' property does not have the 'display' none problem -- we dealt with that by splitting it from speak-as
16:57:44 <fantasai> fantasai: wrt silent / not-silent switch, you could solve that by preserving the inherited value along with the 'silent' keyword, and introducing a 'restore' value that removes the 'silent' part
16:57:59 <fantasai> danielweck: I think adding that would complicate the spec's mapping to SSML
16:58:11 <fantasai> RESOLVED: no change for issue 12
16:58:21 <fantasai> danielweck: issue 13
16:58:22 <Zakim> -danielweck
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16:58:56 <Zakim> +??P7
16:58:57 <danielweck> Zakim, ??P7 is me
16:58:58 <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
16:59:30 <Martijnc> Martijnc has left #css
16:59:33 <fantasai> fantasai explains speak /speak-as issue
16:59:51 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Proposal to re-merge 'speak' + 'speak-as' rejected, for reasons that they were split.
17:00:23 <fantasai> danielweck: pause properties take <time>, there's a proposal to restrict the range of values allowed in <time>
17:00:30 <fantasai> danielweck: I proprose to reject that
17:00:44 <fantasai> danielweck: I don't want to define good authoring practice by restricting the values
17:01:08 <fantasai> szilles: You should respond saying that some of the things they're asking for should go into authoring guidelines
17:01:39 <fantasai> danielweck: Someone also made a point about using MQ to address specific speech contexts, explain e.g. what kind of disability user might have, etc.
17:01:49 <fantasai> danielweck: I've worked in device adaptation, and this seems very risky
17:01:57 <fantasai> danielweck: and definitely out-of-scope for CSS Speech
17:02:02 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #css
17:02:10 <fantasai> danielweck: Also MQ addresses hardware requirements, not user capabilities
17:02:34 <bradk> 10:02 am. I have to sign off.
17:02:55 <bradk> bye
17:03:04 <fantasai> RESOLVED: No change for issue 14 request to restrict <time> values
17:03:18 <Zakim> -ericmueller
17:03:19 <Zakim> -danielweck
17:03:19 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:03:20 <Zakim> -arno
17:03:20 <Zakim> -kimberlyblessing
17:03:22 <Zakim> -glazou
17:03:23 <Zakim> -kojiishi
17:03:23 <Zakim> -cesar
17:03:25 <Zakim> -antonp
17:03:27 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:03:29 <Zakim> -stearns
17:03:29 <antonp> antonp has left #css
17:03:31 <Zakim> -Bert
17:03:34 <fantasai> RESOLVED: MQ feature request for user-capability-querying out-of-scope
17:03:36 <Zakim> -bradk
17:03:36 <cesar> cesar has left #css
17:03:39 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
17:03:41 <fantasai> Meeting closed.
17:03:46 <Zakim> -fantasai.a
17:03:56 <Zakim> -plinss
17:05:22 <Zakim> -sylvaing
17:05:23 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:05:24 <Zakim> Attendees were danielweck, johnjansen, glazou, sylvaing, +1.510.364.aaaa, ericmueller, stearns, antonp, fantasai, bradk, kojiishi, Bert, +569011aabb, [Microsoft], arronei, cesar,
17:05:27 <Zakim> ... kimberlyblessing, howcome, SteveZ, plinss, arno
17:05:54 <dbaron> aargh, I remembered we had a telecon at 9am and forgot by noon.
17:05:58 <dbaron> Problem with being in a different time zone
17:06:21 <dbaron> I should really figure out why my phone calendar alarms don't make any sound anymore...
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21:12:07 <fantasai> We should introduce a numeric scale for voice-volume that goes from 0 to 11 :)
21:14:22 <stearns> the tufnel unit
21:18:56 <fantasai> what kind of scale are volume knobs on anyway?
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