IRC log of ua on 2011-10-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:31:42 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
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logging to
16:31:44 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:31:44 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:31:46 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:31:46 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 29 minutes
16:31:47 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:31:47 [trackbot]
Date: 13 October 2011
16:32:43 [JAllan]
Chair: Jim Allan, Kelly Ford
16:33:01 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Discussion with Wayne Dick - UAAG and Low Vision users
16:33:13 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Review Survey for Oct 6 -
16:33:23 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Review Survey for Sept 22
16:33:48 [JAllan]
Agenda+ review comments -
16:36:46 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make logs
16:36:46 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make logs', JAllan. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:53:57 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate JAllan
16:54:21 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
16:54:36 [JAllan]
regrets: JeanneS
16:58:24 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:58:31 [Zakim]
16:58:51 [Zakim]
16:58:54 [Zakim]
16:58:55 [Zakim]
16:59:02 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
16:59:02 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
16:59:44 [Zakim]
17:00:33 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
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zakim, code?
17:01:21 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, sharper
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17:02:24 [mhakkinen]
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17:02:33 [Jan1]
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17:03:47 [Zakim]
17:04:03 [Jan1]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan1
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+Jan1; got it
17:04:07 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:05:44 [kford]
Scribe: kford
17:05:51 [kford]
Regrets: Jeanne
17:05:56 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:05:56 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:05:56 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda
17:05:58 [Zakim]
1. Discussion with Wayne Dick - UAAG and Low Vision users [from JAllan]
17:06:01 [Zakim]
2. Review Survey for Oct 6 - [from JAllan]
17:06:03 [Zakim]
3. Review Survey for Sept 22 [from JAllan]
17:06:05 [Zakim]
4. review comments - [from JAllan]
17:06:08 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'agenda', JAllan
17:06:08 [Zakim]
17:06:19 [sharper]
zakim, ??P24 is sharper
17:06:19 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:06:32 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:06:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kford
17:07:01 [kford]
JA: If you are working on mobile browser uaag review, we need to get that going for next week.
17:09:26 [kford]
JA: Looking like we will have a lot of attendance at our TPAC meeting. Goes over names. We have 10 people asking to observe.
17:09:36 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:09:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kford
17:09:37 [Zakim]
17:10:04 [JAllan]
TPAC participants and observers
17:10:12 [JAllan]
TPAC participants and observers
17:11:21 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:11:21 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:11:23 [Zakim]
1. Discussion with Wayne Dick - UAAG and Low Vision users [from JAllan]
17:11:26 [Zakim]
2. Review Survey for Oct 6 - [from JAllan]
17:11:27 [Zakim]
3. Review Survey for Sept 22 [from JAllan]
17:11:28 [Zakim]
4. review comments - [from JAllan]
17:11:29 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
17:11:29 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Discussion with Wayne Dick - UAAG and Low Vision users" taken up [from JAllan]
17:11:43 [kford]
JA: Intro for Wayne.
17:12:08 [kford]
Wayne: Was a professor at Cal State. Have low vision. Have worked a lot in the area of user stylesheets.
17:12:50 [kford]
Wayne: Always interested in talking with people about this. I'm a member of WAI's EOWG group.
17:13:04 [kford]
Group introduces themselves.
17:13:24 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:13:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kford
17:14:36 [kford]
Intros finish.
17:14:53 [kford]
JA: Wayne, you sent in a bunch of comments. We appreciated what you had to say.
17:14:57 [JAllan]
wayne's comments
17:15:16 [kford]
Wayne: I only looked at your part 1.
17:15:59 [JAllan]
Greg's comment on Wayne's stuff:
17:16:09 [kford]
JA explains that we'll take more comments any time.
17:17:23 [Wayne]
Wayne has joined #ua
17:17:47 [Wayne]
Can you see me
17:17:53 [JAllan]
yes we see you
17:18:22 [kford]
Present:Jim, Kim, Kelly, Jan, Simon, Mark, Wayne, Greg
17:19:05 [kford]
Wayne: Low vision is not a single disability. It is a cluster needing a wide range of accomodations. At least the power of a user stylesheet is necessary.
17:19:57 [kford]
Wayne: For example the WCAG contrast requirmenet for 4.5 contrast would be painful to a sizable low vision population.
17:20:54 [kford]
Wayne goes through other examples where low vision users need varying display.
17:21:35 [kford]
Wayne: Many low vision users use the mouse. Part of why they don't use screen readers is because the screen reader makes the mouse tough to use.
17:22:17 [kford]
Wayne: Many low vision users stick HTML pages in word and the adjust things in word to read.
17:23:58 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:23:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kford
17:24:51 [kford]
Wayne goes over various AT products like Home Page Reader, something from Viki Handsom (sp) adapt to me.
17:25:44 [kford]
Wayne: The need for internal AT is important. I'll send you an essay on my thoughts there.
17:27:19 [kford]
Wayne: It seems that many of the requirements needed for successful reading for low vision are at triple a, and it is too low.
17:28:39 [kford]
GL: We appreciate the comments. We have a balance between the population that the SC will impact and the degree to which somethinething is actually out there in the world.
17:29:00 [kford]
KP: If you know of extensions that help here let us know.
17:29:33 [kford]
Wayne: I'll dig up what I know about.
17:30:49 [kford]
Wayne: My stylesheets might look like one offs but that's what needed.
17:32:27 [kford]
Wayne gives an example of a situation where reflow of a document skipped some key points he needed to read.
17:33:40 [JAllan]
kf: wayne motivated to create style sheets. what is perspective on user population knowledge of css and how to implement.
17:33:42 [kford]
Wayne: It took me two years to get effective stylesheets for myself.
17:34:19 [kford]
Wayne: I've spent a year studying Javascript to get things working.
17:34:31 [Jan1]
17:35:04 [kford]
Wayne: I've learned some interesting things. At times there is an absolute need to reset an author style.
17:35:26 [kford]
Wayne: I have a complicated sheet for example that does a reset to I can then start at 0.
17:36:59 [kford]
Wayne: The variance here is so wide. This is a group of people where glasses don't work to the only thing we have left to adjust the typography.
17:37:34 [JAllan]
17:37:43 [JAllan]
ack jan1
17:37:56 [JAllan]
zakim, ack
17:37:56 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'ack', JAllan
17:38:33 [kford]
JAN: Just want to make sure we note what Wanye said but there there are other solutions. One that might work well is sharing.
17:39:02 [kford]
Wayne: Talks about a solution he'll be presenting soon.
17:39:31 [Jan1]
JR: User CSS is only technique of a more general SC that requires user control of typography
17:41:07 [kford]
Wayne: What ultimately works is that you need to allow the user to create the optimal seeing environment for that person.
17:42:00 [kford]
JA: Waynce, one of your comments on tooltips.
17:42:21 [kford]
JA: We've talked about this that they are not available from the keyboard.
17:42:32 [kford]
JA: and that users can not modify them.
17:43:34 [JAllan]
there are also author tool tips created with javascript, that scale with the viewport
17:43:40 [Greg]
17:44:18 [kford]
Wayne: It would be nice if I could put my mouse over an image and get the alt text.
17:44:37 [JAllan]
wayne wants a setting where the 'alt' will show up instead of title
17:44:51 [Jan1]
ack Jan1
17:44:58 [Jan1]
ack Jan
17:45:06 [Jan1]
ack Greg
17:46:01 [kford]
GL: Waynce you talk about this broad spectrum a wide range of people. We love to talk about this in our intent document.
17:46:24 [JAllan]
greg suggests adding character spacing and leading as part of user modifications
17:46:38 [KimPatch]
17:46:46 [kford]
GL: Third, thinking about the process, what is the best way to capture the full list of Waynes' comments.
17:48:10 [kford]
Kim: You were talking about how low vision were 30 different groups. I think it is neat when we can merge. Losing focus when you go from large to small and lose focus is a big impact on speech users too.
17:48:28 [kford]
Kim: Focus being constent matters across groups.
17:48:42 [JAllan]
loosing point of regard when scaling window
17:48:53 [kford]
Kim: Scrolling as little as possible for speech users is important.
17:49:06 [Greg]
Greg's second point was that we love adding examples showing wide range of needs and accommodations, so if Wayne can provide more that would be great.
17:49:41 [kford]
Kim: When you talk about switching something into word, seems like some annotation tools around that might help?
17:50:26 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:50:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kford
17:51:12 [kford]
Wayne: When you go large and lose focus it is bad. I had to do 47 page downs one time when I shifted to the size I needed.
17:52:04 [kford]
Wayne: A couple years ago I demonstrated a clipper product. You pick part of a web page and say I want to read this.
17:52:54 [kford]
Waynce: This let you keep things small while you selected and then getting big when you started reading.
17:53:21 [kford]
GL: This focus is really talking about not losing the point in content.
17:53:55 [JAllan]
kim suggests having a place marker
17:54:17 [kford]
Kim: Scrolling repeatedly is tough. Cases where is can take out your voice.
17:54:56 [kford]
Wayne: On the iBook, they keep focus when you enlarge. They also have good bookmarks.
17:55:02 [kford]
17:55:34 [Greg]
That is, as I described in my reply to Wayne's comments, was that an SC should say the point of regard should be scrolled to be within the visible portion of a viewport when the viewport is resized, and when the presented size of the content within the viewport changes due to changes in view options (e.g. zoom ratio) or content formatting (e.g. in a word processor, rich text edit field, of...
17:55:36 [Greg]
...browser window set to edit mode, the user or script changes the font size attribute of some text).
17:56:09 [JAllan]
kf: zooming in a browser. 3/4 down the page, if you zoom do you go to the top of the page
17:56:52 [JAllan]
kf: ideally want to remain where you where after zooming.
17:58:26 [Greg]
JA: What about putting something in Intent document about maintaining point of regard?
17:59:09 [JAllan]
gl: this needs an SC. this is a problem in FF. side bars are especially troublesome
17:59:19 [Greg]
GL: Strongly feel it should be an SC requirement.
17:59:57 [Greg]
Jim: Has styler add-in that remembers what user style sheet you want for a particular site.
18:00:16 [JAllan]
wayne: problems with IE, FF, opera, safari
18:00:38 [JAllan]
chrome seems to do it right.
18:00:40 [Greg]
KP: Has users who change things breaking accessibility, and they don't remember what they changed. Having a timeline where you can see, or undo configuration changes, would be extremely useful.
18:01:15 [Zakim]
18:01:54 [Greg]
Jim: We have SC saying that you can make changes and reset to default, but sounds like Kim's asking for multiple level of undo for configuration changes.
18:03:05 [Greg]
Kim: the concept of "Discover, Adjust, Organize and Share" should be applied to navigation as well as to configurations (user settings).
18:03:26 [Greg]
Kim: That is, capture what you did so you don't have to remember that you were 10 pages down before you got moved.
18:03:36 [mhakkinen]
18:04:36 [Greg]
Kim: Easy way to get and use history to get back to where you were.
18:04:52 [Jan1]
Greg: agreed
18:05:53 [JAllan]
history is a single line. kim wants a tree
18:06:31 [Greg]
Greg: Go Back and Forward again history commands are useful but fall apart when you go back then take a different link, as you lose all the places you visited after that. A more comprehensive history, rather than just a single forward and backward list, would be more useful.
18:07:02 [Greg]
Jim: Sounds like Kim's suggesting quick, easy to use bookmarks.
18:08:09 [Greg]
Kim: Bookmarks (temporary or permanent) are useful, search is also useful, and timeline would be useful. All would be good, and would be used by wide swatch of people.
18:08:46 [JAllan]
scribe: greg
18:09:48 [Greg]
Greg: Could add a very general SC about providing means for users to get back to places they'd been; might not want to be too technology specific (e.g. browser book marks, history). Might also do specific ones where appropriate.
18:10:07 [Greg]
Wayne: Loves ability in VoiceOver to set temporary bookmarks and jump between them.
18:10:30 [Greg]
Jim: We've talked about how for LV users, many need modified screen or UI but don't use AT.
18:11:04 [Greg]
Jim: Trying to capture that in a lot of our documents.
18:11:38 [Greg]
Wayne: Also experienced adding panel or other things that change size of viewport.
18:12:07 [Greg]
Kim: Users in Acrobat have trying to do searches, find a place, go elsewhere, and try to search from new location it still searched from previous search results.
18:12:43 [Greg]
Jim: Difference between where cursor is, where focus is, and where point of regard is, and users have trouble keeping those straight. Knowing which will change, which one is start of search or navigation, etc.
18:13:17 [Greg]
Jim: Anyone want to take action regarding bookmarks?
18:13:26 [Greg]
Kim: Will try.
18:13:31 [Greg]
Wayne: Will help.
18:14:25 [Greg]
Wayne sending link to his short list of stylesheets for us to look at, as well as his style test HTML document.
18:14:32 [JAllan]
action: Kim to write SC on creating bookmarks for orienting users after scaling or other navigation
18:14:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-622 - Write SC on creating bookmarks for orienting users after scaling or other navigation [on Kimberly Patch - due 2011-10-20].
18:15:19 [Zakim]
18:15:47 [Greg]
Jim: Re point of regard, Wayne talked about things being truncated, has he had problem with losing customization when content is printed out?
18:16:17 [Greg]
Wayne: Yes, content often truncated on the right. His style sheets compensate for this.
18:17:32 [JAllan]
greg coments:
18:18:06 [Wayne]
Wayne has joined #ua
18:18:14 [JAllan]
greg coments:
18:19:21 [Wayne]
18:22:00 [Greg]
Wayne: Those style sheets work very well at Opera, but unfortunately other browsers don't turn off their styles, so to get things to work you have to mark everything as !important. The ones with I appended to end has !important on everything to work better with IE, Firefox, etc.
18:25:07 [Greg]
Wayne: VRLV really want tools that provide voice only when and where needed, not all the time.
18:26:01 [Greg]
Wayne: Most commonly get books from, convert to epub, apply own style sheet, move onto iPad. Works well unless you want light on dark, where iPad iBook reader insists links must be dark blue, ruining light on dark configurations.
18:27:03 [Greg]
Jim: When reviewing the UAAG20 document, we have lots on navigation and structural navigation in particular, such as navigating by headings, and would appreciate your feedback on that because of its importance to low vision readers.
18:27:33 [Greg]
Wayne: Critical, as when you look at sight range for "low vision" you get roughly 100 to 25 words per page.
18:28:13 [Greg]
Wayne: His own vision varies during the day from roughly 100 down to 50 words per page (screen).
18:29:02 [Greg]
Wayne: Discussing how different access methods work best for different tasks.
18:29:22 [Greg]
Jim: Be warned that numbers have changed in the document since the last time he reviewed it.
18:30:00 [Greg]
Wayne: Uses VoiceOver in lightning reading mode to go through it quickly to get overview, then go back in detail.
18:30:34 [Greg]
Jim: If Wayne is willing, would like feedback on the Implementing document which has more explanations, rationales, and examples. Anything he could add would be greatly appreciated.
18:30:57 [Greg]
Wayne: Should be working on it by the end of the month.
18:31:50 [Zakim]
18:31:54 [Zakim]
18:31:56 [Zakim]
18:32:00 [Zakim]
18:32:06 [Zakim]
18:32:14 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:32:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JAllan
18:33:34 [JAllan]
zakim, please part
18:33:34 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jim_Allan, kford, Greg_Lowney, Mark, Kim_Patch, Jan1, sharper, Wayne
18:33:34 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:33:41 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:33:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JAllan
18:34:00 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
18:34:00 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
18:34:00 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Kim to write SC on creating bookmarks for orienting users after scaling or other navigation [1]
18:34:00 [RRSAgent]
recorded in