20:00:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:00:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-irc
20:00:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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20:00:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:00:17 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM already started
20:00:19 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:00:19 <trackbot> Date: 13 October 2011
20:01:37 <Zakim> +??P9
20:02:04 <ed> Zakim, ??P9 is me
20:02:04 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:02:47 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011OctDec/0019.html
20:03:16 <Zakim> + +33.9.53.77.aabb
20:03:45 <tbah>  zakim, +33 is me
20:03:45 <Zakim> +tbah; got it
20:05:13 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:05:17 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
20:05:17 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
20:07:00 <Zakim> +tabatkins_
20:07:07 <Zakim> +ChrisL
20:07:21 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
20:07:23 <heycam> Scribe: Cameron
20:07:27 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_ has joined #svg
20:07:28 <heycam> ScribeNick: heycam
20:07:45 <TabAtkins_> zakim, who is here?
20:07:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.408.543.aaaa, ed, tbah, heycam, tabatkins_, ChrisL
20:08:02 <TabAtkins_> zakim, tabatkins_ has shepazu
20:08:02 <Zakim> +shepazu; got it
20:08:08 <heycam> Topic: SVG2 planning
20:08:14 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Planning_Page
20:08:30 <heycam> ED: we originally thought we'd be done with the requirements and use cases draft
20:08:33 <heycam> ... tomorrow
20:08:39 <heycam> ... that seems unlikely
20:08:51 <heycam> CL: I think we could agree to finalise it by the end of the F2F though
20:09:06 <heycam> ... we could get rid of some of the proposals, merge some
20:09:26 <heycam> ... also find out which one whether there's any authoring support, any authoring problems, any implementation interest
20:10:04 <heycam> DS: we could turn this into an opportunity that we are seeking from SVG Open people input on the requirements
20:10:07 <heycam> ... show them what we have so far
20:10:31 <heycam> ED: you're editing the document?
20:10:35 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback
20:10:37 <heycam> CL: the wiki page, which I guess is the draft of that document
20:11:26 <cyril>  /me trying to call in from Australia but can't get the right prefix ...
20:13:49 <heycam> CL: where did the 15th come from?
20:14:09 <heycam> ... I'd like to resolve on having a draft of our uc+req document by the end of the F2F
20:14:19 <heycam> ... even if it's incomplete, just to set some direction
20:14:26 <heycam> ED: anyone opposed?
20:14:28 <heycam> (none)
20:15:06 <heycam> RESOLUTION: We will have a draft of SVG2 Use Cases & Reqs document by end of TPAC 2011 and publish a draft directly afterwards
20:18:35 <heycam> ED: should we assign an action to group these items on the wiki page?
20:18:40 <heycam> CM: do we need to do that now or just for publication?
20:18:45 <heycam> TB: would be better to do it earlier
20:20:59 <heycam> ED: we could do some of this at the SVG Open meeting
20:22:11 <heycam> ED: shall we go through the remaining ones that don't have comments?
20:22:17 <heycam> ... I was wonder about the "use cleanup" one
20:22:24 <heycam> CL: I added something there about what I think it should be
20:22:29 <heycam> ... it relates to two issues
20:22:43 <heycam> ... one is being clearer about shadow dom/trees, how dynamic they are, whether they react to changes/liveness
20:22:51 <heycam> ... the second is the hokey inheritance into shadow trees
20:24:50 <heycam> CM: I think it needs investigation to see whether the style inheritance does need changes, what the implementation state is, etc.
20:24:58 <heycam> DS: we should look at the component model work
20:25:16 <heycam> ... maybe for SVG2 we say use is like a templating thing, the inheritance model etc., like the component model
20:25:34 <heycam> ... that way implementors only have to do oen thing, special cased slightly for use, instead of a very different thing for use
20:26:10 <heycam> CM: I agree
20:28:46 <heycam> ACTION: Tab to investigate how to align SVG use with the Component Model
20:28:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3135 - Investigate how to align SVG use with the Component Model [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2011-10-20].
20:29:13 <heycam> DS: Tab says he thinks it would be relatively easy to do this, to have something that is very much like use but not identical
20:29:37 <cyril> do you have a link to the Component Model description ?
20:29:39 <heycam> ... I think we should get as close to use as we can with the existing Component Model, maybe modify the CM in response
20:29:52 <heycam> ... I want to ensure the use cases are covered, and as backwards compatible as possible
20:30:01 <heycam> ... the component model relies heavily on script, too
20:30:19 <heycam> TA: we are looking at the script based components first, but we will look at the declarative version
20:31:52 <heycam> CM: I did mean to look into the Component Model to see how it should work for the sXBL use cases, but I haven't had the time
20:32:00 <heycam> DS: we should do that, look at the sXBL/RCC use cases
20:32:25 <heycam> ... now that SVG is everywhere, doing things like replacing a table with a chart is something people will now want to do
20:32:34 <heycam> ... I've got this question a few times: does SVG have a data binding model?
20:32:42 <heycam> ... and I've said no, you can make one with script, but it doesn't have a native one
20:33:10 <heycam> ... and rather than having a big scripted solution, it could draw from the data to create the graph
20:33:34 <heycam> ... and the discussions we had earlier about making accessible infographics start to make more sense
20:33:57 <heycam> ... so the Component Model is interesting not just from the "use" perspective but also the "sXBL use cases" perspective
20:35:38 <heycam> ACTION: Doug to investigate the Component Model for SVG re sXBL use cases after 11 Nov 2011
20:35:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3136 - Investigate the Component Model for SVG re sXBL use cases after 11 Nov 2011 [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-10-20].
20:36:17 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/SVGOpen_2011
20:36:27 <heycam> Topic: SVG Open 2011 F2F
20:36:33 <heycam> ED: please add yourself to the wiki page if you're attending
20:36:42 <heycam> ... this will be on the workshop day
20:36:50 <heycam> ... depending on how much we have to discuss we could go for half a day or the whole day
20:37:10 <heycam> CM: what topics do we have for that day? at least Gradients for Tav?
20:37:21 <heycam> TB: maybe connectors?
20:37:34 <heycam> DS: I'm happy to talk about connectors, didn't think there was much support for it, but if we can build support for it, yeah
20:37:43 <heycam> TB: there's a group in Inkscape who is interested in that
20:37:58 <heycam> CL: that reminded me there's a group in Inkscape interested in variable width stroke, so let's put that on the agenda
20:38:10 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/SVGOpen_2011/agenda_proposals
20:38:37 <heycam> DS: I have a spec for Connectors, even if it doesn't get into browsers right away, if it gets into authoring tools for static stuff, that could still be a useful step towards building support for it
20:39:07 <heycam> CL: I would like to call in. could someone try to find out whether there is a way?
20:39:50 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to ensure there is a phone available at the SVG Open 2011 F2F
20:39:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3137 - Ensure there is a phone available at the SVG Open 2011 F2F [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-10-20].
20:44:01 <heycam> ED: I suggest starting the SVG Open meeting early in the day to see whether we need the whole day or not
20:44:02 <Zakim> -tabatkins_
20:44:09 <heycam> ... there might be some people who want to go to the workshops
20:45:36 <TabAtkins_> shepazu has to go to another meeting now
20:45:56 <Zakim> -tbah
20:46:34 <Zakim> +tbah
20:49:01 <heycam> CL: there was a request to discuss the mapping taskforce at the F2F
20:49:09 <heycam> ... so we should ensure there's a substantial discussion on that
20:49:24 <heycam> ... we should check to see whether andreas can attend
20:50:12 <Zakim> -ChrisL
20:50:51 <Zakim> +ChrisL
20:51:05 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to contact Andreas and Takagi-san about time and attendance of mapping taskforce discussion
20:51:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3138 - Contact Andreas and Takagi-san about time and attendance of mapping taskforce discussion [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-10-20].
20:51:11 <ed> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/Pre-TPAC2011/results
20:53:04 <heycam> Topic: requirements
20:53:09 <heycam> ED: improving the DOM
20:53:14 <heycam> ... that's a pretty large group of things
20:53:31 <heycam> CL: it's easy to resolve to make it better, but we need something more concrete
20:54:00 <Zakim> - +1.408.543.aaaa
20:54:25 <Zakim> -heycam
20:55:39 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:55:58 <ChrisL> zakim,IPcaller is heycam
20:55:58 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
20:56:00 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
20:56:00 <Zakim> sorry, heycam, I do not recognize a party named '['
20:56:09 <heycam> CL: so we should look at the work we're doing to inform our SVG DOM improvements
20:56:22 <heycam> ED: we should scope our work to SVG DOM improvements and leave general improvements to the DOM WG
20:56:31 <ChrisL> s/we're/WebApps is/
20:59:04 <heycam> ACTION: Cameron to gather and write up a proposal for improving SVG DOM
20:59:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3139 - Gather and write up a proposal for improving SVG DOM [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-10-20].
21:02:36 <heycam> ED: text flow is another one that is a maybe for some people
21:02:58 <heycam> CL: I put down maybe because it's clearly a requirement, and there's people wanting to do it, otoh the way that we did it produced pushback from css/browser guys
21:03:10 <heycam> ... and now they actually have two specs that cover that (exclusions/regions)
21:03:19 <heycam> ... and it's likely that will work with svg too
21:04:04 <heycam> CM: so we can include it in the requirements document
21:04:18 <heycam> CL: but we should point out the different possible approaches (including using the css work)
21:05:40 <heycam> CM: connectors, it says inkscape folks are working on a proposal to submit about that
21:05:50 <heycam> TB: not sure they've started on the proposal, but they intend to
21:06:01 <heycam> ED: I think we can include it as a feature request
21:06:51 <heycam> ... btw do we need to worry about html5/xml?
21:07:00 <heycam> ... whether svg is based on the dom, or the markup
21:07:58 <heycam> CM: yes I think we should write the spec based on the DOM
21:08:09 <heycam> ... and include details on how particular markup produces a DOM
21:08:40 <heycam> ED: do we have a writeup of that?
21:08:47 <heycam> CM: don't think so, discussed briefly in Seattle
21:08:53 <heycam> ... I'd like to see more details
21:10:11 <heycam> ED: data attributes (and aria) is another thing we should look at from html
21:10:17 <heycam> CL: yes we should track that
21:11:42 <heycam> CM: "Intersection of superpath, vector effects and connectors" 
21:11:47 <heycam> ... wasn't sure exactly what it was
21:12:21 <heycam> CL: something similar from vector effects, but it was a real drawing primitive, so probably shouldn't be in VE
21:12:30 <heycam> ... this is useful for shared path edges
21:12:44 <heycam> ... so renderers don't do hazy antialiasing when drawing two shapes with the shared edges
21:12:47 <heycam> ... smaller file size, too
21:13:01 <heycam> ... how that fits with connectors, couldn't tell
21:13:14 <heycam> ... a bit handwavey
21:13:26 <heycam> CM: so this is basically "shared path edges"
21:13:31 <heycam> CL: and compound shapes made of multiple paths
21:13:33 <cyril> my colleague at Telecom ParisTech started a wiki page on shared path edges
21:13:51 <cyril> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Proposals/Shared_Path_Motivation
21:13:56 <heycam> CL: this also means you need to be able to automatically reverse a path edge, for consistent filling
21:15:33 <heycam> ACTION: Chris to work up a shared path edge / superpath proposal
21:15:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3140 - Work up a shared path edge / superpath proposal [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-10-20].
21:15:46 <heycam> ACTION-3140: see also http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Proposals/Shared_Path_Motivation
21:15:47 <trackbot> ACTION-3140 Work up a shared path edge / superpath proposal notes added
21:16:32 <heycam> ED: next, declarative drawing, the replicate tag
21:16:38 <cyril> chris, feel free to contact Jean-Claude Moissinac, he has several examples on which he could test the proposal
21:17:57 <heycam> CM: I guess I would like to see it grounded in use cases
21:18:09 <heycam> ED: I think the gradient-on-lines part of it is interesting
21:19:17 <cyril> what is "gradient-on-lines3 ?
21:19:32 <cyril> s/lines3/lines"/
21:19:41 <heycam> CL: one advantage is its declarativeness
21:19:56 <heycam> ... so it would work in HTML background images for example
21:20:23 <ed> cyril: i meant contour gradients, similar to tubefy if you've seen that
21:21:12 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to tease out the different functionality from the "Declarative drawing" requirements entry
21:21:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3141 - Tease out the different functionality from the "Declarative drawing" requirements entry [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-10-20].
21:22:01 <heycam> ED: next, function based input for animate
21:22:13 <heycam> CL: I'd like to see it motivated a bit more. I think I know what it's for, but I'm not sure.
21:23:27 <heycam> CM: we might have talked about something like that before, using SMIL for timing and JS for the value computation
21:23:39 <heycam> ... I remember wanting to be able to do that in the past, not sure if it was for anything practical
21:23:46 <heycam> ED: I'd like to see some actual examples, what it's trying to solve
21:24:52 <heycam> CM: should we ask david for details / use cases?
21:24:55 <heycam> CL: yes
21:25:09 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to contact David for more details on function-based input for animate
21:25:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3142 - Contact David for more details on function-based input for animate [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-10-20].
21:26:10 <heycam> ED: next, enhanced text support
21:26:18 <heycam> ... is that the same as the tubefy work?
21:26:25 <heycam> CM: yes I think the second dotpoint there is
21:27:20 <heycam> ... I can't remember what the outcome of the Seattle discussions on text warping was
21:28:54 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to find the outcome of Seattle text warping discussion and add it to requirements wiki page
21:28:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3143 - Find the outcome of Seattle text warping discussion and add it to requirements wiki page [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-10-20].
21:29:35 <Zakim> -ChrisL
21:29:37 <Zakim> -heycam
21:29:40 <Zakim> -ed
21:29:41 <Zakim> -tbah
21:29:41 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has ended
21:29:42 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.408.543.aaaa, ed, +33.9.53.77.aabb, tbah, heycam, ChrisL, shepazu
21:29:48 <heycam> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:29:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html heycam
21:47:14 <ChrisL> zakim, roll 25
21:47:14 <Zakim> I don't understand 'roll 25', ChrisL
21:47:30 <ChrisL> zakim, roll antenna 25
21:47:30 <Zakim> I don't understand 'roll antenna 25', ChrisL
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