IRC log of rdfa on 2011-10-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:46:37 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
13:46:39 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:46:39 [Zakim]
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13:46:41 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7332
13:46:41 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
13:46:42 [trackbot]
Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
13:46:42 [trackbot]
Date: 13 October 2011
13:47:40 [manu1]
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13:54:40 [bergie]
13:54:55 [bergie]
unfortunately I think I can only join IRC today... another meeting overlapping with this one
13:56:19 [bergie]
was supposed to end at this hour, but we're at item 1/7 now :-P
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SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
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13:59:41 [gkellogg]
zakim, I am ??P25
13:59:41 [Zakim]
+gkellogg; got it
13:59:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.540.961.aaaa
13:59:54 [manu1]
zakim, I am aaaa
13:59:54 [Zakim]
+manu1; got it
14:00:44 [Zakim]
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14:01:04 [niklasl]
zakim, I am ??P37
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+niklasl; got it
14:01:18 [Knud]
zakim, I am ??P33
14:01:22 [Zakim]
+Knud; got it
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+ +68185775aabb
14:01:57 [SebastianGermesin]
Zakim, I am aabb
14:02:00 [Zakim]
+SebastianGermesin; got it
14:02:39 [Zakim]
14:04:52 [manu1]
zakim, who is on the call?
14:04:52 [Zakim]
On the phone I see gkellogg, manu1, Knud, niklasl, McCarron, SebastianGermesin, scor
14:08:27 [scor]
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14:09:10 [manu1]
14:09:37 [scor]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:09:39 [Zakim]
On the phone I see gkellogg, manu1, Knud, niklasl, McCarron, SebastianGermesin, scor
14:09:50 [manu1]
Topic: ISSUE-111: Determine behavior when @inlist and @rev are used together
14:10:40 [gkellogg]
14:10:48 [manu1]
ack gkellogg
14:10:51 [scor]
manu1: has anyone implemented @inlist or @rev in their processor?
14:11:03 [niklasl]
14:11:22 [scor]
gkellogg: I didn't include it yet... because it has no effect in the current spec.
14:11:40 [manu1]
ack niklasl
14:12:10 [scor]
niklasl: the idea was that @rev might be usable to make a link from the list itself
14:12:34 [scor]
... it might introduce problems: can only make links with literals
14:13:02 [scor]
manu1: Ivan has implemented something, but there are issue with how to interpret that with other RDFa attributes?
14:13:22 [scor]
gkellogg: not a proposal, it's the existing behavior. question is: do we want to keep it that way?
14:13:34 [niklasl]
14:13:42 [scor]
... if we don't have an advocate for @inlist we can't make much progress
14:14:02 [scor]
manu1: Ivan would be that advocate, though he said he didn't really like what it did.
14:14:17 [scor]
manu1: danger is we have an attar which does not do what we expect it to do
14:14:50 [scor]
manu1: one can argue it's an advanced feature, and should only be used for advanced use cases
14:14:56 [manu1]
ack niklasl
14:15:09 [scor]
niklasl: I agree. haven't seen any use case for using the list as a subject
14:15:43 [scor]
... if there were a real use case for it, we could supply the list as subject
14:15:57 [scor]
... we should postpone it until a real use case is found
14:16:18 [scor]
manu1: it seems people feel uncomfortable with @inlist
14:16:27 [scor]
manu1: anyone disagree?
14:17:00 [scor]
manu1: opposed to making a decision on this call today - let's wait a week to make a resolution
14:17:15 [scor]
... until Toby and Ivan are on the call
14:17:18 [SebastianGermesin]
ok, for waiting
14:17:52 [scor]
Shane: proposal to take effect in 7 days if nobody obejcts
14:18:15 [scor]
Shane: solicit Jeni's opinion
14:18:21 [manu1]
ACTION: Manu to write proposal to not support @rev/@inlist to not support for 7 days cc Jeni Tennison.
14:18:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-98 - Write proposal to not support @rev/@inlist to not support for 7 days cc Jeni Tennison. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-10-20].
14:18:39 [manu1]
Topic: ISSUE-108: Refine/deprecate Link relations
14:18:57 [manu1]
14:20:21 [scor]
manu1: one approach we can take it accept the values specified by HTML5
14:21:01 [scor]
manu1: initial list could be the same as the XHTML values, and wait until the new values are standardized to add them
14:21:25 [scor]
manu1: only tweak about the proposal would be to remove stylesheet, not really useful and people don't like it.
14:21:40 [gkellogg]
The May Microdata spec removed alternate and stylesheet and replaced them with ALTERNATE-STYLESHEET
14:21:42 [scor]
manu1: maybe also remove alternate as it's not used the way we would expect it in RDF
14:22:47 [scor]
Shane: alternate: <muffled>
14:23:20 [gkellogg]
14:23:40 [scor]
Shane: alternate has a specific use in the wild today (e.g. RSS)
14:23:49 [manu1]
ack gkellogg
14:24:35 [scor]
gkellogg: micro data used to do in an earlier version of the spec: use ALTERNATE-STYLESHEET to remove them
14:25:05 [scor]
Shane: we don't care about the RDF generated by stylesheet
14:26:06 [scor]
manu1: hold off alternate or stylesheet until the processer would have processed all @rel to decide what value should be generated
14:26:35 [scor]
manu1: we want to generate useful triples for people on the semantic web. stylesheet and alternative are usually not useful.
14:26:54 [scor]
... people who need these would not use RDF for the purpose of alternative and stylesheet
14:27:07 [niklasl]
.. I agree: stylesheet without content is reasonably quite useless
14:27:19 [niklasl]
.. i.e. without the html
14:27:43 [niklasl]
14:27:49 [scor]
manu1: Shane made a point not to remove alternate as it can link to alternate representation (RSS)
14:27:49 [manu1]
ack niklasl
14:28:15 [scor]
niklasl: we could also say that if @rel contains stylesheet we would ignore the @rel
14:28:51 [scor]
manu1: is anybody depending on @rel alternate? would be surprised if there was any
14:29:11 [scor]
niklasl: I think there is a potential for it, I would probably use dc:hasFormat for that use case though
14:29:31 [scor]
manu1: since RDFa has been around 2008, if today there is no use case today, we could remove it
14:29:49 [scor]
manu1: in the vast majority of the use case, it generates wrong triples
14:31:23 [scor]
Shane: on ALTERNATE-STYLESHEET: collection of value in the vocab document. if the HTML WG is randomly introducing new terms with semantics, there is potential for conflicts. e.g. role. is anyone worried about that?
14:31:36 [scor]
manu1: we would raise an issue in the HTML WG if this was to happen
14:31:42 [scor]
... that's all we can do
14:33:47 [scor]
manu1: the only thing we're talking about is the removal of stylesheet and alternate
14:33:55 [scor]
manu1: any disagree? or want to add something?
14:34:02 [scor]
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14:34:44 [manu1]
ACTION: Shane to respond to mailing list with pointer to discussion today about alternate/stylesheet
14:34:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-99 - Respond to mailing list with pointer to discussion today about alternate/stylesheet [on Shane McCarron - due 2011-10-20].
14:35:03 [manu1]
Topic: First IRI in @typeof determines the vocabulary used
14:35:12 [manu1]
14:35:26 [manu1]
scor: I'm not the first one to propose this - some background.
14:35:53 [manu1]
scor: @vocab was introduced to make it easier to author content - to avoid using prefixes/CURIEs - so that was good, makes the markup easier.
14:36:30 [manu1]
scor: I think a burden remains - people that come from Microdata - there is a new concept that they have to understand - vocabularies. It's one more thing that people have to learn.
14:36:56 [manu1]
scor: Microdata solves this problem by just saying that the itemtype is the base vocabulary (implicitly).
14:37:41 [manu1]
scor: I was wondering if RDFa could adapt the same approach as Microdata - give the option of extracting the vocabulary from the first item in @typeof
14:38:22 [manu1]
scor: The only difference is that @vocab becomes optional - you can remove vocab and put the full URI of the type in @typeof... processors would infer the vocabulary from the first IRI in @typeof.
14:38:37 [manu1]
scor: We could allow for CURIEs in @typeof if the prefix is described somewhere in the document.
14:39:00 [manu1]
scor: So you could have something like typeof="skos:Contact" and then the skos namespace would become the default @vocab.
14:39:12 [gkellogg]
14:39:20 [manu1]
ack gkellogg
14:39:20 [scor]
14:40:13 [manu1]
gkellogg: I was uncomfortable with this feature in MIcrodata... in RDFa it seems dangerous - it doesn't solve all of the problems you want. It's common to use properties from other vocabs like Dublin Core with - it seems unnatural for RDFa to be able to do that.
14:40:16 [scor]
14:40:29 [manu1]
gkellogg: RDFa just has other mechanisms to make this easier.
14:40:50 [manu1]
scor: I'm not saying RDFa should drop everything else, just add this to make markup easier.
14:41:15 [niklasl]
14:41:20 [manu1]
scor: This is just a shortcut to not use @vocab.
14:41:21 [manu1]
ack scor
14:41:49 [manu1]
scor: The idea is that people that come from Microdata could make the change easily. It's just a search/replace.
14:42:12 [scor]
14:42:31 [manu1]
niklasl: I think I agree with Toby - who proposed this initially, and has since come around to not supporting this feature. There are problems with this approach - like what happens when you do chaining - there are technical issues.
14:42:34 [manu1]
ack niklasl
14:43:04 [manu1]
niklasl: This might be a bit too magical, rather than the explicit use of @vocab.
14:43:07 [manu1]
ack scor
14:44:10 [manu1]
scor: I don't know if there is a problem with @vocab. re: Chaining - I believe that Microdata use cases will not use that. Raising this proposal from Microdata perspective. This is so that people can convert Microdata to RDFa easily. This feature will only be used with simple markup.
14:44:14 [manu1]
14:44:16 [manu1]
14:45:51 [manu1]
niklasl: I kind of see your point - but there are issues. If I use full IRIs with this mechanism, that would also set the @vocab. @vocab specifies the namespace - but so does @typeof... that may be confusing - that's what Microdata kinda does.
14:46:13 [manu1]
How do we know how to process the IRI in a deterministic way?
14:46:52 [manu1]
Is conversion from Microdata to RDFa a use case we care about?
14:47:07 [manu1]
niklasl: How is the vocabulary determined?
14:47:25 [manu1]
gkellogg: Everything after the slash or hash - which is different from Hixie's spec.
14:47:58 [manu1]
niklasl: Yes, this is aligned with - that's what you'd expect.
14:48:16 [manu1]
gkellogg: and this is why we did it that way.
14:48:27 [manu1]
niklasl: Microdata dropped any conversion to RDF... where are we on that?
14:48:40 [gkellogg]
14:48:41 [manu1]
gkellogg: HTML Data TF has responsibility to document how to convert Microdata to RDF.
14:49:28 [niklasl]
.. <div vocab=""><div typeof="bibo:LegalDocument"><p property="title">
14:50:57 [scor]
manu1: it is not if you don't know that you can use @vocab
14:51:04 [scor]
14:53:09 [manu1]
manu1: I don't know if we should care about this use case.
14:53:12 [manu1]
ack manu1
14:53:16 [manu1]
ack scor
14:53:36 [manu1]
scor: I agree if you know that @vocab exists, but if you don't know it exists - then it's difficult to learn that new thing.
14:53:51 [manu1]
scor: However, with this, it's not as confusing.
14:54:03 [manu1]
scor: People don't have to learn about @vocab - they just use @typeof.
14:54:04 [manu1]
14:54:09 [manu1]
ack manu1
14:56:21 [manu1]
manu1: The mechanism to break the Microdata IRI into vocab is confusing.
14:57:02 [manu1]
scor: RDFa has a mixture of attributes to be added to markup - in Microdata you just have @itemtype... in RDFa you have @vocab and @typeof.
15:00:49 [manu1]
PROPOSAL: Add functionality to @typeof where if the first token is an IRI, that sets the default vocabulary for processing.
15:01:03 [gkellogg]
15:01:04 [Knud]
15:01:04 [SebastianGermesin]
15:01:05 [niklasl]
15:01:07 [ShaneM]
15:01:08 [scor]
15:01:08 [manu1]
15:01:49 [manu1]
RESOLVED: Add functionality to @typeof where if the first token is an IRI, that sets the default vocabulary for processing.
15:02:07 [gkellogg]
s/Add/Do not add/
15:02:15 [scor]
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SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
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Attendees were gkellogg, +1.540.961.aaaa, manu1, McCarron, niklasl, Knud, +68185775aabb, SebastianGermesin, scor
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trackbot, bye
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