15:50:35 RRSAgent has joined #htmlspeech 15:50:35 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-htmlspeech-irc 15:50:40 Zakim has joined #htmlspeech 15:50:57 trackbot, start telcon 15:51:00 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:51:03 Zakim, this will be 15:51:03 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 15:51:05 Meeting: HTML Speech Incubator Group Teleconference 15:51:07 Date: 13 October 2011 15:51:09 zakim, this will be htmlspeech 15:51:09 ok, burn; I see INC_(HTMLSPEECH)11:30AM scheduled to start 21 minutes ago 15:51:18 Chair: Dan_Burnett 15:51:42 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-htmlspeech/2011Oct/0016.html 15:52:16 INC_(HTMLSPEECH)11:30AM has now started 15:52:23 +[Voxeo] 15:52:35 zakim, [Voxeo] is Dan_Burnett 15:52:35 +Dan_Burnett; got it 15:52:40 zakim, I am Dan_Burnett 15:52:40 ok, burn, I now associate you with Dan_Burnett 15:58:00 +Michael_Bodell 15:58:23 +[IPcaller] 15:58:49 Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay 15:58:50 +Olli_Pettay; got it 15:59:07 Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay 15:59:07 ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay 15:59:17 + +1.425.580.aaaa 15:59:29 zakim, aaaa is Dan_Druta 15:59:29 +Dan_Druta; got it 15:59:38 DanD has joined #htmlspeech 16:00:00 ddahl has joined #htmlspeech 16:00:06 +Debbie_Dahl 16:00:14 Zakim, why do you recognize me occasionally as [IPcaller] and occasionally as ??Px ? 16:00:14 I don't understand your question, smaug. 16:00:17 :) 16:01:24 zakim, who is here? 16:01:24 On the phone I see Dan_Burnett, Michael_Bodell, Olli_Pettay, Dan_Druta, Debbie_Dahl 16:01:29 On IRC I see ddahl, DanD, Zakim, RRSAgent, burn, smaug, trackbot 16:02:24 +Milan_Young 16:02:51 + +44.760.705.aabb 16:03:03 Milan has joined #HtmlSpeech 16:03:21 zakim, aabb is Satish_Sampath 16:03:21 +Satish_Sampath; got it 16:03:26 Charles has joined #htmlspeech 16:04:31 +Charles_Hemphill 16:05:27 Scribe: Charles_Hemphill 16:05:31 ScribeNick: Charles 16:05:37 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-htmlspeech/2011Oct/0016.html 16:06:26 MJ has joined #htmlspeech 16:06:30 satish has joined #htmlspeech 16:06:36 Topic: Quick API review, particularly the continuous case 2. Last chance -- any conflicts between API and protocol? 16:06:50 +Michael_Johnston 16:07:24 Michael: sent out updated API 16:07:35 ... some editorial tasks remain 16:07:38 s/2. Last chance -- any conflicts between API and protocol?// 16:08:08 Updated API email is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-htmlspeech/2011Oct/0017.html 16:08:17 ... didn't renumber yet to avoid confusion. 16:08:20 Updated API document is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-htmlspeech/2011Oct/att-0017/speechwepapi.html 16:09:01 Michael: some minor questions 16:09:07 ... default way to get language 16:09:10 ... end envent 16:09:15 ... end event 16:09:47 Michael: 7.1 set language 16:10:05 ... default values with an attribute - what about language for the default value 16:10:11 Satish: pick up from th document 16:10:15 Michael: how to phrase? 16:10:22 +[Microsoft] 16:10:36 Satish: take language mentioned in the markup - if not markup, take off the body tag 16:10:49 ... reco element, can specify lang attribute 16:10:57 zakim, [Microsoft] is Robert_Brown 16:10:57 +Robert_Brown; got it 16:11:01 robert has joined #htmlspeech 16:11:22 Michael: user agent sets if not otherwise set? 16:11:46 Satish: can mandate something in the API - when connect to the speech service 16:11:59 ... page specified, for example. 16:12:09 + +1.408.359.aacc 16:12:20 ... optional in the API - can pick up in the UI 16:12:33 glen has joined #htmlspeech 16:13:29 zakim, aacc is Glen_Shires 16:13:29 +Glen_Shires; got it 16:13:38 Michael: When UA communicates with speech service, needs to communicat language. 16:14:06 ... can go off html body language 16:14:26 ... value assigned to that attribute in javascript? 16:14:42 ... assigned at open? Can JavaScript get it? 16:14:49 ... only for user setting? 16:15:03 ... only for communicating with the speech service. 16:15:12 Ollie: Assume null unless set. 16:15:39 ... UA would send default 16:15:58 Satish: agree with that also - gets sent in the protocol 16:16:15 Debi: Script could change? 16:16:23 Satish: yes, could change. 16:16:32 Dan: But script can't read the default value. 16:16:38 ... seems like a failure 16:16:46 Satish: quite common 16:16:54 ... e.g., width of element. 16:17:04 Dan: try to get value before set? 16:17:16 Satish: empty object or null string or empty string. 16:17:51 Dan: Go with it if that's how it works. 16:18:00 Charles: Should check that behavior. 16:18:16 Satish: can check 16:19:33 Michael: Section 7.3, end of it 16:19:58 ... from incorporating idea to move away from binding connection - 4 methods 16:20:06 ... and 3 event handlers 16:20:12 ... open start and end events. 16:20:23 ... what is end for? 16:20:33 ... disconnect as a result of abort? 16:20:47 Ollie: Need progress event 16:20:58 ... load end event after load 16:21:12 ... always an end event 16:21:31 Michael: get when end of reco is dont 16:21:37 s/dont/done 16:21:44 ... no matter what the cause. 16:22:12 Satish: lang attribute - don't assign, then get empty string. Assign and get the same value. 16:22:22 Michael: what about width? 16:22:34 Satish: Thought lang more appropriate. 16:23:39 Charles: Try a known attribute to avoid custom attribute behavior. 16:23:43 Satish: will check. 16:24:14 Michael: end event - fired at the end of the connection no matter what the cause. 16:24:30 Dan: when end of reco is done, no matter what the cause. 16:24:44 Topic: issues raised in e-mail conversations. 16:24:57 Satish: alternates 16:25:00 Topic: continuous recognition 16:25:17 Satish: what was missing in the first proprosal? 16:25:32 ... can add what was missing or add alternates in the most recent proprosal. 16:25:43 s/Topic: continuous recognition// 16:25:43 Michael: Talk about the current proprosal - missing something? 16:25:55 ... Did talk about alternates. 16:26:16 Satish: When results not finalized yet. Get when finalized? Don't see that. 16:26:23 s/issues raised in e-mail conversations./continuous recognition -- alternates/ 16:26:43 Michael: Still have alternates. Contained in the triple. 16:26:54 ... have n-best alternate list, even with final results. 16:27:14 Satish: Alts can span word boundaries? 16:27:22 Michael: Yes - no word boundaries. 16:27:40 Satish: Can't have one alternate that spans more than one result? 16:27:52 Michael: Can't change the number of results. 16:28:06 ... easiest to write up - Milen had longer example. 16:28:31 ... select or highlight word of phrase - might want alternates to pop up for correction - this is supported. 16:28:39 s/Milen/Milan/ 16:28:48 ... different orders would be more difficult. 16:29:14 ... to change boundaries, need giant correct 16:29:24 ... when with n-best correction mechanism. 16:29:36 Satish: OK if we have alternates for final results. 16:29:44 ... seems fine 16:29:57 ... have one example that shows alternates for final results. 16:30:10 Milan: Questions: how to represent finalized elements? 16:30:33 ... every item in the array has an attribute for final (boolean)? 16:30:40 Michael: Yes. 16:30:48 Milan: want to index from 0? 16:30:54 Michael: Yes, from 0. 16:31:02 Milan: will send out new example. 16:31:14 ... finals with boolean flag, plus alternates. 16:31:46 Dan: Ollie brought up Glens proposal. 16:31:57 ... didn't discuss so far. 16:32:05 ... can walk through? 16:34:28 Dan: reco from text string? 16:34:38 Michael: Don't have it - at least not directly. 16:34:51 ... can reco from uri - can use data uri. 16:35:01 ... not direct or straighforward. 16:35:28 Regd. reading back a lang attribute that was not yet set - I tested with the css width property and reading back a width attribute that was not set returns an empty string. 16:35:36 Dan: Obvious and simple to do or not. 16:35:47 HTML without width set:
Hello
- shows a dialog with an empty string 16:35:50 Debi: want to set parameter recognized from text. 16:36:03 HTML with width set:
Hello
- shows a dialog with "100px" as the text 16:36:21 Michael: May interfere. 16:36:35 Robert: Can do otherthings. 16:36:54 ... call emulation rathe than start that uses text property? 16:37:00 Dan: like that. 16:37:14 ... important for it to be obvious that coder is not using audio. 16:37:22 ... needs to be clearly different. 16:37:28 ... emulate good way to do it. 16:37:50 Debi: Don't need to worry about parameters that don't make sense such as end-point detection. 16:37:59 Dan: But doesn't hurt for them to be there. 16:38:09 Robert: Can ignore them. 16:38:23 Dan: attributes, not parameters, so it can work. 16:38:44 ... simpel to do? write up 1 new method and description - 16:38:56 ... certain parameters ignored or have certain values. 16:39:09 ... e.g., result has confidence of 100? 16:39:35 Debi: no - might be doing some parsing, although reco confidence could be 100. 16:39:47 Michael: might not be 100 even if emulated. 16:40:04 Robert: have 3 different emulation implementations - leave as open as possible. 16:40:37 Debi: looks like start method. 16:40:47 ... events that come back are the same 16:40:55 ... ones that don't make sense don't come back. 16:41:37 Dan: semantic interpretation - would rather not have onsoundstart, etc. come back. 16:41:41 ... different with emulation. 16:42:04 ... with substatial emulation, could be parameters for everything. 16:42:31 Debi: make as similar as possible and fine tune later. 16:42:44 Dan: what would be the harm if onsoundstart, etc. came back. 16:42:57 ... should know what that means if they call the emulate method. 16:43:14 ... just need to worry about confusion that it was from a start. 16:43:30 Robert: uneasy about emulation spec 16:43:49 Dan: mrcp needs semantic interpretation only. 16:44:04 Robert: not everyone wants to do tha. 16:44:21 s/tha/that/ 16:44:42 Dan: one shot case should not be a problem. 16:44:58 ... what about custom pronunciations, etc. 16:45:07 ... but can be useful in common cases. 16:45:15 Robert: those are the common cases. 16:45:34 ... people choose unusual names for things. 16:45:47 Dan: if speaking, then normal recognition. 16:46:03 Robert: Simulating spoken input. 16:46:26 Milan: want all methods? 16:46:36 Robert: Don't - don't think they are meaningful. 16:47:02 ... wouldn't want to fire onaudiostart unless there is a system that can represent them. 16:47:12 Dan: Would like interpret rather than emulat. 16:47:20 s/emulat/emulate/ 16:47:31 ... utf-8 text and interpret it. 16:47:50 Robert: Find semantic interpretation to be almost useless in the vast majority of apps. 16:48:09 Milan: app with SRGS grammar, want to send text to it. 16:48:20 ... doesn't help with punctuation, etc. 16:48:25 ... must match tokens. 16:48:34 Michael: emulation can do something smart. 16:49:02 Robert: can do something like that - works perfectly when testing, but confusable parts in reality with audio. 16:49:10 ... won't get n-best, etc. 16:49:32 Milan: given range of target users - worth having mechanism to send a string and get an interpretation. 16:49:49 ... experienting for own site. 16:49:58 s/Milan:/Michael:/ 16:50:00 s/experienting/experimenting/ 16:50:17 Michael: be careful how we describe the method. 16:50:34 ... ask for confusable parts. 16:50:42 ... be careful about what we say we get back. 16:51:07 ... Sounds like there is rough agreement for emulate or "recognize from text" method. 16:51:12 Dan: not emultate. 16:51:19 Robert: interpret. 16:51:33 Dan: clear if pass in as a parameter. 16:51:54 Michael: do want to trigger event - can get nomatch. 16:52:51 Dan: difference between result events and progress (audio related) events. 16:53:23 Dan: would rather not get audio-related events. 16:53:33 Michael: Can get other result oriented events. 16:53:40 ... oninterpret? 16:53:51 Dan: needs to be an end - maybe not oninterpret. 16:54:25 Michael: oninterpret similar to onstart - make changes while waiting for results to come back. 16:54:38 ... might change the UI while interpreting. 16:54:54 Dan; Could take time - far enough. In favor of oninterpret. 16:55:50 Satish: Don't set a width - get empty string. Set and then get what you set. 16:55:58 ... in meeting notes. 16:56:08 Michael: that approach should work for language. 16:56:13 Satsh: yes. 16:56:15 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-htmlspeech/2011Oct/0000.html 16:56:19 s/Satsh/Satish/ 16:56:36 Topic: Glen's proposal. 16:56:46 above URI is for Glen's reco tag proposal 16:56:53 Glen: Be more declarative. 16:57:07 ... simple for html developers. 16:57:15 ... support copy and past. 16:57:28 s/past/paste/ 16:57:46 ... keep simple things simple. 16:57:56 ... additional option as a permissions model. 16:58:18 ... icon that indicates "I'm speech enabled". 16:58:25 ... user gives permission by clicking. 16:59:41 ... make it obvious when audio is captured. 17:00:19 ... says that this is a spot where you can speak into a Web page. 17:01:00 ... example 1 - no specific binding except in JavaScript except onresult. 17:01:17 ... methods intended to match what's in JavaScript. 17:01:52 ... example 4 - does appending rather than overwriting. 17:02:16 .. example 3 - assigns value and submits the form. 17:02:35 ... apply the same technique for text areas. 17:03:25 Charles: javascript loses declarative approach. 17:03:43 Michael: Not as simple this.value. Have n-best,etc. 17:03:53 -Michael_Johnston 17:04:06 Glen: Can have a simple syntax for the top result. 17:04:16 ... either way simple cut and paste. 17:04:31 ... continuous vs. noncontinuous. 17:05:13 ... interim=true 17:05:24 Michael: "for" lets you choose grammars. 17:05:38 ... type number rather than type text. 17:06:14 Glen: Two reco elements. ... icon tha tyou click on. 17:06:39 Satish: JavaScript needed for more complex things. 17:06:53 ... want to submit form, etc. 17:07:04 ... never purely declaritive. 17:07:23 Charles: SHould be some simple declarative cases. 17:07:34 Michael: compromise by being both. 17:07:39 ... add various attributes. 17:07:39 s/tha tyou/that you/ 17:07:56 ... parameters and event handlers seems useful. 17:08:06 ... can do without losing for connection. 17:08:26 Glen: "for" connection - can eliminate one bit of JavaScript. 17:08:37 ... don't see as string argument. 17:08:46 ... get grammar also. 17:09:09 ... might want to contrain grammar to zip code or other specific things. 17:09:20 Michael: HTML5 pattern attribute. 17:09:30 ... get checking and can tie to speech. 17:09:45 s/string argument/strong argument/ 17:09:58 ... ties the reco to the input with "for" just like label. 17:10:07 ... can also be implicit (by wrapping). 17:10:25 ... examples would be tied to the input. 17:10:46 Robert: Simply assigning a value to a text field can be accomplished. 17:10:56 ... what if want to advance the cursor or insert text. 17:11:07 ... should just be built in. 17:11:54 Glen: Don't know if can generalize if only inserted at the cursor. 17:12:03 Satish: Keep the API as an API. 17:12:16 ... not try to implement text input. 17:13:44 Michael: Web app author says pattern and that they want speech. 17:14:26 ... saying UA will speech enable, but we are saying the Web app author will specify grammars, patterns. 17:14:38 ... would like association with markup. 17:14:56 ... want web app author to have some control. 17:15:10 ... don't want to lose "for" attribute. 17:15:18 ... can use both approaches. 17:15:56 Olli: pattern attribute is a regular expression. How would speech services handle that? 17:16:15 ... thought a grammar would be needed. 17:16:40 Michael: UA should give information about a relavent grammar. 17:16:51 ... no grammars in the examples from Glen. 17:17:24 Olli: if support patterns and automatic binding, need to specify how this works. 17:17:33 Milan: Built-in grammar that supports patters? 17:17:40 s/patters/patterns/ 17:18:03 Michael: Voice-xml has parameterized grammar specifications. 17:18:18 ... don't match with html5, so need to do the mapping. 17:18:33 ... OK with not making the mapping as long as browsers are able to do this. 17:18:52 Satish: "for" attribute problem - have so many things to support. 17:18:59 ... for is mostly visual 17:19:11 ... needs say which controls for speech. 17:19:28 Glen: Can get grammar from input field with "for" - big advantage. 17:19:45 ... otherwise don't see advantage. 17:19:58 ... "for" could apply to input fields only,. 17:20:14 Michael: button input, text area, etc. specified so far. 17:20:25 ... based on html5. 17:22:21 Charles: Model forces user to select the "mic" image. 17:22:30 Glen: Keep simple things simple. 17:23:15 Glen: Show microphone or not? 17:23:29 Charles: Would be an orthogonal parameter. 17:24:03 Glen: Visual element to know it's speech enabled and for permission model. 17:24:24 Dan: icon shows up. clicks on it and goes into a diffent field. 17:24:38 ... nice to see cursor in field to know where input goes. 17:24:53 Michael: "for" is very powerful. 17:25:10 Satish: Could have reverse mapping. 17:25:19 ... taking result and putting it in there. 17:25:24 .. list things 17:25:50 s/icon shows up. /in Glen's model icon shows up. User / 17:25:56 ... do we need a "for". 17:26:08 Satish: onfocus - to avoid click. 17:27:12 Michael: Confusing if one reco element that applies to different input element. 17:27:34 Satish: 5 different input field - want to do with all. Want different UI. 17:27:46 Dan: "for" is optional. 17:27:58 Michael: Says what to do in a form. 17:28:09 ... can use reco outside of a form. 17:28:28 Satish: what will be use case for multiple inputs an reco tags. 17:28:54 Michael: Can have associated with each input element. Can be appropriate. 17:29:16 Dan: Good discussion, but not close to resolving. 17:29:29 ... should be more discussion. 17:29:39 ... possibly more phone call time next week. 17:29:52 ... send e-mail on the list. 17:30:00 ... very important to decide on this. 17:30:13 Glen: TPAC reminder - deadline tomorrow. 17:30:25 Michael: deadline extended one week. 17:30:32 -Glen_Shires 17:30:35 -Olli_Pettay 17:30:38 -Debbie_Dahl 17:30:38 ddahl has left #htmlspeech 17:30:39 -Milan_Young 17:30:39 -Dan_Burnett 17:30:40 -Michael_Bodell 17:30:40 -Satish_Sampath 17:30:42 -Robert_Brown 17:30:44 -Dan_Druta 17:30:45 http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ 17:31:18 -Charles_Hemphill 17:31:19 INC_(HTMLSPEECH)11:30AM has ended 17:31:21 Attendees were Dan_Burnett, Michael_Bodell, Olli_Pettay, +1.425.580.aaaa, Dan_Druta, Debbie_Dahl, Milan_Young, +44.760.705.aabb, Satish_Sampath, Charles_Hemphill, Michael_Johnston, 17:31:24 ... Robert_Brown, +1.408.359.aacc, Glen_Shires 17:31:27 Registration fee goes up tomorrow Oct 14 17:33:21 glen: nope 17:33:33 it was extended to Oct 21, IIRC 17:34:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:34:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-htmlspeech-minutes.html burn 17:37:19 s/, +1.425.580.aaaa// 17:37:30 s/, +44.760.705.aabb// 17:37:41 s/, +1.408.359.aacc// 17:37:46 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:37:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-htmlspeech-minutes.html burn 17:57:45 rrsagent, make logs public 18:31:39 Zakim has left #htmlspeech 18:41:59 Charles has joined #htmlspeech 18:42:29 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:42:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-htmlspeech-minutes.html Charles 18:47:47 s/communicat language/communicate language/ 18:48:31 s/from th document/from the document/ 18:49:09 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:49:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-htmlspeech-minutes.html Charles 18:52:10 s/proprosal/proposal/ 18:53:06 s/straighforward/straightforward/ 18:54:12 s/otherthings/other things/ 18:54:39 s/rathe than/rather than/ 18:55:03 s/simpel/simple/ 18:55:33 s/substatial/substantial/ 18:56:18 s/emultate/emulate/ 18:57:08 s/n-best,etc/n-best, etc/ 18:57:52 s/declaritive/declarative/ 18:58:09 s/SHould/Should/ 18:58:41 s/contrain/constrain/ 18:59:28 s/relavent/relevant/ 19:00:04 s/diffent/different/ 19:00:47 s/inputs an reco/inputs and reco/ 19:01:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:01:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-htmlspeech-minutes.html Charles 19:02:49 s/envent/event/ 19:03:22 s/javascript/JavaScript/ 19:04:25 s/proprosal/proposal/ 19:06:35 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:06:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-htmlspeech-minutes.html Charles 19:10:28 smaug has joined #htmlspeech 19:12:31 s/proprosal/proposal/g 19:12:46 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:12:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-htmlspeech-minutes.html Charles 19:13:26 s/proprosal/proposal/ 19:13:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:13:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-htmlspeech-minutes.html Charles 19:17:33 s/far enough/fair enough/ 19:18:51 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:18:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-htmlspeech-minutes.html Charles 19:23:28 s/word of phrase/word or phrase/ 19:33:41 s/needs say/needs to say/ 19:34:13 s/button input/button, input/ 19:35:29 s/different input field/different input fields/ 19:36:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:36:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-htmlspeech-minutes.html Charles 19:38:47 s/Dan;/Dan:/ 19:39:05 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:39:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-htmlspeech-minutes.html Charles