13:17:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dap
13:17:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/12-dap-irc
13:17:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:17:03 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dap
13:17:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DAP
13:17:05 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 43 minutes
13:17:06 <trackbot> Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference
13:17:06 <trackbot> Date: 12 October 2011
13:17:28 <fjh> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Oct/0042.html
13:18:19 <fjh> Chair: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
13:18:22 <fjh> Present+ Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
13:18:33 <fjh> Regrets+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
13:20:21 <fjh> fjh has joined #dap
13:20:44 <fjh> Regrets+ Rich_Tibbett
13:21:39 <fjh_> fjh_ has joined #dap
13:22:05 <fjh> Regrets+ Jose_Cantera
13:22:42 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
13:22:42 <Zakim> UW_DAP()10:00AM has not yet started, fjh
13:22:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, tmpsantos, darobin, ilkka, ingmar, lgombos, Josh_Soref, trackbot, dom
13:37:34 <fjh> fjh has joined #dap
13:39:24 <fjh_> fjh_ has joined #dap
13:51:06 <Dzung_Tran> Dzung_Tran has joined #dap
13:51:14 <Dzung_Tran> Present+ Dzung_Tran
13:53:33 <Clarke> Clarke has joined #dap
13:55:40 <Clarke> +Present Clarke_Stevens
13:56:03 <Clarke> Present+ Clarke_Stevens
13:56:04 <wonsuk> wonsuk has joined #dap
13:56:22 <Clarke> Is anyone else having trouble dialing in?
13:56:47 <SungOK_You> SungOK_You has joined #dap
13:57:14 <Zakim> UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
13:57:21 <Zakim> +wonsuk
13:57:22 <Kihong_Kwon> Kihong_Kwon has joined #dap
13:57:48 <Deepanshu> Deepanshu has joined #dap
13:57:49 <Zakim> +??P15
13:57:59 <Clarke> zakim, P15 is Clarke
13:57:59 <Zakim> sorry, Clarke, I do not recognize a party named 'P15'
13:58:11 <Kihong_Kwon> Present+ Kihong_Kwon
13:58:12 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:58:18 <fjh> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
13:58:18 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
13:58:20 <Clarke> zakim, ??P15 is Clarke
13:58:20 <Zakim> +Clarke; got it
13:58:23 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
13:58:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see wonsuk, Clarke, fjh
13:58:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see Deepanshu, Kihong_Kwon, SungOK_You, wonsuk, Clarke, Dzung_Tran, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, tmpsantos, darobin, ilkka, ingmar, lgombos, Josh_Soref, trackbot, dom
13:58:41 <SungOK_You> Present+ SungOk_You
13:59:00 <Deepanshu> Present + Deepanshu Gautam
13:59:04 <Zakim> + +1.503.542.aaaa - is perhaps Dzung?
13:59:12 <AnssiK> AnssiK has joined #dap
13:59:12 <wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
13:59:17 <Zakim> + +1.289.261.aabb
13:59:38 <Dzung_Tran> 1.503.542.aaaa is me
13:59:51 <fjh> s/Present + member:Deepanshu Gautam/Present+ member:Deepanshu_Gautam/
14:00:00 <Zakim> + +86255662aacc
14:00:08 <fjh> Present+ Deepanshu_Gautam
14:00:08 <Zakim> +??P20
14:00:14 <fjh> rrsagent, generate minutes
14:00:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/12-dap-minutes.html fjh
14:00:15 <AnssiK> zakim, ??P20 is me
14:00:15 <Zakim> +AnssiK; got it
14:00:23 <AnssiK> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
14:00:26 <Josh_Soref> Present+ Josh_Soref 
14:00:29 <Zakim> +??P21
14:00:30 <Josh_Soref> Scribe: Josh_Soref 
14:00:37 <darobin> Zakim, ??P21 is me
14:00:37 <Zakim> +darobin; got it
14:00:55 <fjh> Present- Deepanshu
14:00:56 <Josh_Soref> Zakim, aabb is me
14:00:56 <Zakim> +Josh_Soref; got it
14:01:04 <fjh> Present- Gautam
14:01:15 <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:01:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/12-dap-minutes.html Josh_Soref
14:01:30 <Clarke> Phone working fine for me now
14:01:34 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:01:56 <fjh> s/Is anyone else having trouble dialing in?//
14:02:40 <SungOK_You> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:02:40 <Zakim> +SungOK_You; got it
14:03:48 <Deepanshu> It Depanshu from China
14:04:00 <Josh_Soref> Topic: Administrative
14:04:02 <fjh> Device Status Task Force mailing list at  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-status/2011Oct/0000.html
14:04:03 <fjh> Last Call WebIDL 18 October deadline, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Oct/0040.html
14:04:03 <fjh> Workshop: The Future of Offline Web Applications, deadline 12 Oct, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Oct/0005.html
14:04:03 <fjh> TPAC reminder,  hotel, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-device-apis/2011Oct/0001.html
14:04:03 <fjh> Questionnaire for noting remote attendance open to 22 October but please respond now if you plan to dial in, http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43696/tpac2011/
14:04:13 <Josh_Soref> Zakim, aacc is probably Deepanshu 
14:04:13 <Zakim> +Deepanshu?; got it
14:04:30 <darobin> SEND IN YOUR POSITION PAPERS: http://www.w3.org/2011/web-apps-ws/
14:04:41 <Josh_Soref> Zakim, aacc is probably Deepanshu_Gautam
14:04:41 <Zakim> sorry, Josh_Soref, I do not understand your question
14:04:44 <jsalsman> jsalsman has joined #dap
14:04:44 <Zakim> + +1.650.335.aadd
14:04:48 <Josh_Soref> Zakim, Deepanshu  is probably Deepanshu_Gautam
14:04:48 <Zakim> +Deepanshu_Gautam?; got it
14:04:52 <Claes> Claes has joined #dap
14:04:53 <Anders> Anders has joined #dap
14:04:56 <Deepanshu> I'm the one dialing form China, so yes anything likr +86 is me Depanshu
14:05:19 <Claes> Present+ Claes_Nilsson
14:05:23 <Josh_Soref> RESOLUTION: Next week's call is canceled
14:05:29 <Anders> present+ Anders Isberg
14:05:50 <Josh_Soref> Topic: Minutes Approval
14:05:54 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Oct/att-0013/minutes-2011-10-05.html
14:06:06 <Josh_Soref> RESOLUTION: Minutes from October 5th are approved
14:06:26 <Josh_Soref> Topic: TPAC F2F Agenda
14:06:31 <fjh> http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/wiki/F2F_Agenda_3-4_November_2011,_Santa_Clara_(TPAC)#Day_1.2C_Thursday_3_November_2011_.289am_-_5pm.29
14:06:41 <Zakim> + +46.1.08.00.aaee
14:07:22 <Josh_Soref> [ fjh reads the Agenda ]
14:09:18 <Josh_Soref> Zakim, who is on the call?
14:09:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see wonsuk, Clarke, fjh, Dzung?, Josh_Soref, Deepanshu_Gautam?, AnssiK, darobin, SungOK_You, +1.650.335.aadd, +46.1.08.00.aaee
14:10:13 <Zakim> + +1.425.214.aaff
14:10:24 <Josh_Soref> jsalsman: I have a question about process at the F2F
14:10:38 <Josh_Soref> fjh: the process at W3 means "consensus is no formal objection"
14:10:55 <darobin> +1 we don't recuse people, we only use as much process as we need
14:11:00 <Josh_Soref> ... everyone can bring something to the table
14:11:37 <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:11:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/12-dap-minutes.html Josh_Soref
14:12:00 <bryan> bryan has joined #dap
14:12:37 <Josh_Soref> [ fjh tries to move on with the Agenda ]
14:13:03 <Josh_Soref> s/Anders Isberg/Anders_Isberg/
14:13:41 <Deepanshu> Present+ Deepanshu_Gautam
14:13:50 <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
14:13:51 <jsalsman> yes
14:13:57 <fjh> q?
14:14:08 <Josh_Soref> s/Phone working fine for me now//
14:14:15 <Josh_Soref> s/It Depanshu from China//
14:14:16 <jsalsman> present+ James_Salsman
14:14:26 <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:14:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/12-dap-minutes.html Josh_Soref
14:15:15 <Josh_Soref> [ fjh resumes reading the Agenda ]
14:15:40 <Josh_Soref> AnssiK: The Web Events group is meeting on Tuesday (?)
14:16:20 <Josh_Soref> ... I haven't (?) gotten a reply from them regarding vibration
14:17:11 <Josh_Soref> AnssiK: I won't be available on Monday
14:17:25 <Josh_Soref> ... but I will be available for the rest of the week
14:17:43 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
14:17:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see wonsuk, Clarke, fjh, Dzung?, Josh_Soref, Deepanshu_Gautam?, AnssiK, darobin, SungOK_You, +1.650.335.aadd, +46.1.08.00.aaee, +1.425.214.aaff
14:17:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see bryan, Anders, Claes, jsalsman, AnssiK, Deepanshu, Kihong_Kwon, SungOK_You, wonsuk, Clarke, Dzung_Tran, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, tmpsantos, darobin, ilkka, ingmar,
14:17:48 <Josh_Soref> Josh_Soref: I'll be around for the whole week, but I have a number of groups I need to drop in on for Monday/Tuesday
14:17:48 <Zakim> ... lgombos, Josh_Soref, trackbot, dom
14:18:07 <Josh_Soref> Topic: Sensors API
14:18:09 <fjh> Updated draft, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Oct/0025.html (Jose)
14:18:09 <fjh> Comments from Bryan, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Oct/0026.html
14:18:10 <fjh> Comments from Claes, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Oct/0041.html 
14:18:21 <Josh_Soref> Dzung_Tran: The comments are good
14:18:40 <Josh_Soref> ... including comments on Discovery and Network type devices
14:18:52 <Josh_Soref> ... the initial scope of this was "in device sensor only"
14:19:02 <Josh_Soref> ... connected or integrated
14:19:08 <Josh_Soref> ... that was the original scope of the spec
14:19:18 <Josh_Soref> ... I'd like to leave it like that
14:19:22 <Claes> q+
14:19:32 <Josh_Soref> ... I'd like to keep the spec simple enough that it can be implemented
14:19:36 <fjh>  s/no formal objection"/ no formal objection", we don't recuse people, and work is done in public as much as possible./
14:20:04 <Josh_Soref> [ Cross chatter ]
14:21:36 <Josh_Soref> Dzung_Tran: There was an item about Privacy
14:21:42 <fjh> q?
14:21:45 <Josh_Soref> ... I would like to talk about it at the F2F
14:21:56 <Josh_Soref> ... one thing we could do is use the Permission API
14:21:57 <jsalsman> +1 discuss privacy on email list instead of face to face
14:22:05 <Josh_Soref> ... before discovery
14:22:13 <fjh> q+ to ask dzung re privacy email
14:22:21 <Josh_Soref> ... there are some edits that I will do this week to answer questions posed on the list
14:22:25 <fjh> ack claes
14:22:26 <Josh_Soref> ack Claes 
14:22:37 <Josh_Soref> Claes: With the mail I sent on the sensors api
14:22:40 <Josh_Soref> ... there are two main concerns
14:22:46 <Josh_Soref> ... the first is the scope of the api
14:23:01 <Josh_Soref> ... I'm not sure that we should limit the scope of the api to just internal device sensors
14:23:14 <bryan> q+
14:23:17 <Josh_Soref> ... I'm not sure if we should build in discovery into the sensor api
14:23:26 <Josh_Soref> ... or whether it should rely on an external api for discovery
14:23:37 <Josh_Soref> ... If we just look at use cases we want to solve
14:23:54 <Josh_Soref> ... it would be too severe of a limitation to only handle internal sensors
14:24:11 <Josh_Soref> ... I think the API must somehow at least handle external but locally connected sensors
14:24:29 <Josh_Soref> Dzung_Tran: I think the API today will handle Locally connected sensors
14:24:43 <fjh> +1 to discussing sensor privacy at f2f (as well as on email list)
14:24:52 <AnssiK> q+
14:25:02 <Josh_Soref> ... We could depend on a general Discovery API
14:25:10 <Josh_Soref> ... but it would depend on a timeline for such an API
14:25:22 <Josh_Soref> Claes: I'm not sure, but I think it's a major detail
14:25:32 <Josh_Soref> ... The other issue is how Discovery should work
14:25:40 <Josh_Soref> ... whether we should have a callback for 
14:25:52 <fjh> ack fjh
14:25:52 <Zakim> fjh, you wanted to ask dzung re privacy email
14:26:04 <Josh_Soref> fjh: Will you start an email thread on privacy
14:26:09 <Josh_Soref> s/privacy/privacy?/
14:26:22 <Josh_Soref> Dzung_Tran: I will respond to privacy in the email thread
14:26:22 <fjh> ack bryan
14:26:42 <Josh_Soref> bryan: I sent an email
14:26:47 <AnssiK> q+ to note that we should make most, or all of the interface async if we want to support remote sensors
14:26:47 <Josh_Soref> ... I think we can use two approaches
14:26:50 <bryan> - if the user agent has visibility to external sensors due to device capability to discover them, it can expose them through the API
14:26:50 <bryan> - we need to consider a general purpose in-network service discovery capability for which sensor API can be one of the services, like other APIs
14:27:01 <AnssiK> s/interface/interfaces/
14:27:22 <fjh> ack anssik
14:27:22 <Zakim> AnssiK, you wanted to note that we should make most, or all of the interface async if we want to support remote sensors
14:27:39 <Josh_Soref> AnssiK: wanted to note that we should make most, or all of the interface async if we want to support remote sensors
14:27:49 <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:27:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/12-dap-minutes.html Josh_Soref
14:27:57 <Josh_Soref> darobin: it's likely that even local sensors can be slow
14:28:03 <Josh_Soref> AnssiK: that's a fair consideration
14:28:11 <Josh_Soref> ... maybe we should design with that consideration in mind
14:28:11 <darobin> q?
14:28:56 <jsalsman> there is related javascript API discovery proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/09/webtv/papers/W3C_HNTF_Position_Paper_Sept_2011.pdf
14:29:06 <Josh_Soref> darobin: Does someone want to take an ACTION item about Remote/Local in Discovery?
14:29:15 <Josh_Soref> Claes: I can take that action
14:29:29 <darobin> ACTION: Claes to create an ISSUE describing the local vs remote, integration of discovery into sensors, etc. problems
14:29:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-457 - Create an ISSUE describing the local vs remote, integration of discovery into sensors, etc. problems [on Claes Nilsson - due 2011-10-19].
14:29:48 <Josh_Soref> Topic: Discovery
14:29:56 <fjh> Javascript-only implementation requirement, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Oct/0034.html
14:29:58 <Josh_Soref> fjh: bryan, you sent something to the list about a new requirement
14:30:18 <Josh_Soref> s/+Present/Present+/
14:30:27 <Josh_Soref> s/1.503.542.aaaa is me//
14:30:46 <Josh_Soref> bryan: there's nothing in the api that would prevent it from being implemented purely as JS
14:30:47 <Clarke> q+
14:31:02 <Josh_Soref> ... if we had a way for devices to advertise themselves
14:31:13 <fjh> ack Clarke
14:31:32 <Josh_Soref> s/advertise/advertize/
14:31:38 <jsalsman> -1 on trying to reach more devices by not exposing information
14:31:45 <darobin> +1 to full JS implementations in general
14:31:48 <Josh_Soref> Clarke: We have an implementation that uses a Java Applet in combination with JavaScript
14:31:52 <Josh_Soref> ... that doesn't impact the browser
14:32:04 <Josh_Soref> ... I think the goal is to have something that doesn't impact the browser
14:32:08 <Josh_Soref> bryan: I agree
14:32:13 <Josh_Soref> ... using a local helper
14:32:19 <Josh_Soref> ... something that's callable through JS
14:32:28 <Josh_Soref> ... is an option
14:32:29 <AnssiK> q+
14:33:01 <fjh> ack anssiK
14:33:05 <Josh_Soref> bryan: As the spec develops, I'll be trying to prototype it without UA support
14:33:18 <Josh_Soref> AnssiK: I think having two alternative designs which are functionally equivalent
14:33:24 <Josh_Soref> ... but where one can be implemented in Pure JS
14:33:24 <Clarke> q+
14:33:26 <fjh> fjh: I suggest  we need to record this objective, in the document or elsewhere
14:33:30 <Josh_Soref> ... I think that's a good approach
14:33:42 <Josh_Soref> AnssiK: During the Battery spec design, we got feedback
14:33:53 <Josh_Soref> ... and adjusted to enable a Pure JS / Shim JS approach
14:34:02 <darobin> +1
14:34:05 <Josh_Soref> ... Maybe we should add this to the API Checklist page
14:34:12 <Claes> First  issue with the current sensor API proposal is the scope of the API, in-device sensors only, 2: 1 plus locally connected sensors, 3: 2 plus networked sensors. Second issue is how sensor discovery method is specified: Callback per found sensor or callback when user has selected sensor (better from privacy aspects). 
14:34:15 <fjh> +1 to adding to API checklist wiki page
14:34:28 <Josh_Soref> [ scribe: move darobin 's +1 after AnssiK 's last statement ]
14:34:35 <fjh> ack clarke
14:34:36 <Josh_Soref> AnssiK: I'll edit the wiki page
14:34:53 <Josh_Soref> Clarke: there are some issues that I don't think you can do in current browsers
14:34:59 <fjh> q?
14:35:02 <Josh_Soref> ... there are Cross Origin restrictions with XHR
14:35:13 <Josh_Soref> ... which the Java applet can work around
14:35:17 <Josh_Soref> ... but this is a stub
14:35:20 <jsalsman> zakim, who is speaking?
14:35:24 <Josh_Soref> ... in the future it wouldn't be needed
14:35:32 <Zakim> jsalsman, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Clarke (44%), fjh (23%), darobin (14%), +1.650.335.aadd (34%)
14:36:15 <Josh_Soref> Zakim, aadd is probably James_Salsman
14:36:15 <Zakim> +James_Salsman?; got it
14:36:23 <Josh_Soref> Topic: Vibration
14:36:30 <Josh_Soref> fjh: AnssiK you had some suggestions
14:36:35 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Oct/0037.html
14:36:37 <Josh_Soref> ... I think we'll talk about this more at the F2F
14:36:44 <Josh_Soref> AnssiK: I may have nothing to add to that
14:36:55 <Josh_Soref> ... there's a very early implementation from the Mozilla folks in Gecko
14:37:02 <darobin> q+ about putting it in the TF
14:37:09 <darobin> q+ to talk about putting it in the TF
14:37:37 <Josh_Soref> ... it's very recent work, let me track it
14:37:42 <fjh> ack darobin
14:37:42 <Zakim> darobin, you wanted to talk about putting it in the TF
14:37:54 <Josh_Soref> ... if they have made progress, by TPAC, maybe we can
14:38:06 <Josh_Soref> darobin: It would be great if you could pick it up
14:38:14 <fjh> +1 thanks to anssi for volunteering here
14:38:18 <Josh_Soref> ... Since this comes from Mozilla, should it be in the TF?
14:38:29 <Josh_Soref> AnssiK: I think if they're more comfortable with the TF
14:38:33 <Josh_Soref> ... then we can use the TF list
14:38:43 <Josh_Soref> Zakim, who is on the call?
14:38:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see wonsuk, Clarke, fjh, Dzung?, Josh_Soref, Deepanshu_Gautam?, AnssiK, darobin, SungOK_You, James_Salsman?, +46.1.08.00.aaee, +1.425.214.aaff
14:39:19 <darobin> +1 to simple and modest
14:39:33 <Josh_Soref> Zakim, aaee is probably Claes_Nilsson
14:39:33 <Zakim> +Claes_Nilsson?; got it
14:39:55 <Josh_Soref> AnssiK: I'd like to do a simple thing
14:40:05 <Josh_Soref> ... the game controller has a few use cases
14:40:21 <Josh_Soref> ... we need to be very careful when it comes to scoping
14:40:29 <Josh_Soref> ... let's create very well scoped use cases
14:40:32 <Josh_Soref> ... and then spec it out
14:40:49 <Josh_Soref> darobin: I think the hardest part of the specification is how it interacts with page-visibility
14:40:59 <Josh_Soref> AnssiK: I think the mozilla folks have a proposal
14:41:12 <Josh_Soref> ... if the page is in the background, no vibration effects are acted upon
14:41:56 <Josh_Soref> Topic: Feature Permissions
14:42:14 <Josh_Soref> fjh: darobin, we need to figure out what we're going to do with this
14:42:20 <jsalsman> wonsuk: what are you thinking of for the list of 'featureID's?
14:42:40 <Josh_Soref> Topic: Net Neutrality Speech Codec
14:42:46 <Josh_Soref> [ fjh will introduce this ]
14:42:47 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Oct/0027.html
14:42:47 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Oct/0030.html
14:43:00 <Josh_Soref> fjh: jsalsman, there are 3 different things in your email
14:43:08 <Josh_Soref> ... some of which were discussed, and some of which were technical
14:43:16 <Josh_Soref> ... of that list of items, some were addressed
14:43:31 <Josh_Soref> ... the second was about net neutrality per-se
14:43:35 <Josh_Soref> ... the third was about codecs
14:43:48 <Josh_Soref> ... with the check list, i thought we had gone through that
14:43:59 <Zakim> -Dzung?
14:44:13 <Josh_Soref> ... the second was net neutrality XXfjh1
14:44:25 <Josh_Soref> ... the third was codecs, where I thought we wanted to remain neutral
14:44:38 <Josh_Soref> ... jsalsman: does that properly delimit your concerns?
14:45:04 <Josh_Soref> jsalsman: Consider the case where there are no open standards
14:45:21 <Josh_Soref> ... implementers may end up using MP3
14:45:47 <Josh_Soref> ... The major consumers of audio is YouTube
14:46:01 <Josh_Soref> ... where they use Flex? on the desktop
14:46:07 <Josh_Soref> ... and Speex? on mobile
14:46:28 <jsalsman> Josh: I'll revise after the conversation FLAC
14:46:40 <Josh_Soref> fjh: I don't think it's necessarily appropriate for us to regulate some of this
14:46:46 <Josh_Soref> ... as it applies to other groups
14:46:54 <Josh_Soref> darobin: When we discussed this in Korea?
14:47:09 <Josh_Soref> ... we decided to follow whatever WebRTC decides
14:47:27 <Josh_Soref> jsalsman: the next bit is the US FCC's orders
14:47:40 <Josh_Soref> s/Flex?/FLAC/
14:47:51 <Josh_Soref> fjh: I think Net Neutrality is a rather broad thing
14:47:57 <Josh_Soref> darobin: We don't do Policy
14:48:09 <Josh_Soref> jsalsman: wasn't this The Device API and Policy
14:48:14 <Josh_Soref> fjh: no, Policy was removed
14:48:18 <Josh_Soref> ... with the recharter
14:48:24 <jsalsman> when?
14:49:13 <Josh_Soref> [ this summer ]
14:49:29 <Josh_Soref> fjh: so you're saying that there's certain information that should be exposed
14:49:52 <Josh_Soref> ... and there may be something which is lacking in the current apis
14:49:55 <Josh_Soref> jsalsman: yes
14:50:33 <Josh_Soref> jsalsman: the process of publication involves making decisions about what is important and what is not
14:50:41 <Josh_Soref> ... making a decision about how much bandwidth is available
14:51:03 <Josh_Soref> ... whether there is a loss of data as the input is being transfered
14:51:36 <Josh_Soref> fjh: I'm trying to understand what to focus on
14:51:48 <Josh_Soref> ... which things are outside are scope
14:51:56 <Josh_Soref> ... what we've already considered
14:52:29 <Josh_Soref> jsalsman: let's say i proposed a new bit was made available to the network api
14:52:57 <Clarke> q+
14:53:06 <Josh_Soref> ... saying that the api expose whether the device has endorsed the FCC rule
14:53:32 <Josh_Soref> ... how would that be received?
14:53:45 <Josh_Soref> fjh: the other approach we have is that for our specs, we try to do things very simply in V.1
14:53:55 <Josh_Soref> ... and we tend to push things to V.2 for more complicated bits
14:54:08 <darobin> ack Clarke 
14:54:19 <Josh_Soref> fjh: I'm not sure what's been recorded, please feel free to help the scribe by recording other bits
14:54:29 <bryan> q+ to ask James to indicate what support the host devices already have for native applications to determine the characteristics that he is interested in further exposing to the web layer
14:54:31 <fjh> fjh: the topic of codecs is important but not necessarily the purview of this wg, as it relates to other standards etc
14:54:32 <darobin> [not to mention US-only]
14:54:33 <Josh_Soref> Clarke: I'd like to see an item in Yes/No form WRT the FCC's statement
14:54:45 <Josh_Soref> ... I don't think the Cable industry would support anything like that
14:54:56 <jsalsman> Which of my proposals is the most important to exclude?
14:55:02 <Josh_Soref> ... I don't think that it's an issue appropriate to the Device API WG which doesn't deal with policy anyway
14:55:42 <Zakim> -Claes_Nilsson?
14:55:44 <Josh_Soref> fjh: without clarity about which attributes are of concern, I don't think we can address them
14:55:51 <Clarke> I would NOT like to see a yes/no item on a matter of political complex policy
14:56:13 <darobin> ack bryan 
14:56:13 <Zakim> bryan, you wanted to ask James to indicate what support the host devices already have for native applications to determine the characteristics that he is interested in further
14:56:14 <Josh_Soref> q?
14:56:15 <fjh> q?
14:56:16 <Zakim> ... exposing to the web layer
14:56:28 <Josh_Soref> bryan: If we could have further information about things to consider
14:56:30 <darobin> s/I'd like to see an item/I would not like to see an item/
14:56:33 <jsalsman> I asked whether a representative of a device manufacturer would be able to report an accurate assessment of their own opinion on whether the manufacturer should inform customers, for example, of whether the manufacturer had endorsed the FCC's Network Neutrality Orders 
14:56:48 <Josh_Soref> ... typically we focus on things which are already available on devices
14:56:53 <Josh_Soref> ... exposed to native applications
14:57:00 <fjh> I doubt you will get an answer to such a question from a technical wg participant
14:57:02 <Josh_Soref> ... our focus is on exposing those apis to web applications
14:57:07 <Josh_Soref> ... not about whether something is a good idea
14:57:13 <Josh_Soref> ... but on whether it is implementable
14:57:23 <Josh_Soref> fjh: I think that's a good summary
14:57:31 <Clarke> Just the one statement. Reducing complex political policy to a simple yes/no indicator is absurd and out of scope for a technical working group
14:57:42 <Josh_Soref> fjh: jsalsman I think it isn't appropriate to expect policy answers from a technical wg
14:57:48 <jsalsman> another example would be whether the representative of an ISP would be able to accurately report their own opinion of whether devices report what their bandwidth, cost per bit, or whether the ISP is reputable.  Would a secret ballot poll overcome these issues?
14:58:38 <Clarke> No problem. You are a much better scribe than me :)
14:58:52 <Josh_Soref> fjh: jsalsman, I'm asking you to take into account the current charter -- http://www.w3.org/2011/07/DeviceAPICharter.html
15:00:19 <Zakim> -Clarke
15:01:33 <Zakim> -wonsuk
15:02:25 <Zakim> - +1.425.214.aaff
15:02:26 <Josh_Soref> [ Adjourned ]
15:02:31 <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, close minutes
15:02:31 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'close minutes', Josh_Soref.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:02:34 <Zakim> -darobin
15:02:35 <Zakim> -James_Salsman?
15:02:35 <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, stop