15:22:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
15:22:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/12-css-irc
15:22:30 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:22:30 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 38 minutes
15:22:34 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:30:49 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
15:44:34 <arno> arno has joined #css
15:54:38 <danielweck> danielweck has joined #css
15:57:07 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
15:57:10 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:17 <Zakim> +??P18
15:57:22 <alexmog> alexmog has joined #css
15:57:22 <glazou> Zakim, ??P18 is me
15:57:22 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:57:42 <Zakim> +??P19
15:57:44 <Zakim> -glazou
15:57:46 <Zakim> +glazou
15:57:57 <glazou> Zakim, having a hickup?
15:57:57 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, glazou.
15:58:02 <danielweck> Zakim, ??P19 is me
15:58:02 <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
15:58:32 <duga> duga has joined #css
15:59:05 <johnjansen> johnjansen has joined #css
15:59:12 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:59:21 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
15:59:21 <johnjansen> zakim, microsoft has johnjansen
15:59:22 <Zakim> +johnjansen; got it
15:59:39 <Zakim> +??P29
15:59:44 <Zakim> + +1.949.477.aaaa
15:59:50 <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aabb
15:59:52 <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aacc
15:59:53 <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
15:59:55 <duga> zakim, ??P29 is me
15:59:56 <Zakim> +duga; got it
15:59:58 <hober> Zakim, aacc is me
15:59:58 <Zakim> +hober; got it
16:00:01 <cesar> cesar has joined #css
16:00:03 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:00:11 <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P29 (29%)
16:00:15 <Zakim> +Molly_Holzschlag
16:00:43 <sylvaing> Zakim, aabb is sylvaing
16:00:43 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
16:00:56 <Zakim> + +975901aadd
16:01:03 <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is duga 
16:01:03 <Zakim> +duga; got it
16:01:10 <Zakim> + +1.215.286.aaee
16:01:11 <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
16:01:12 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:01:12 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:01:24 <kimberlyblessing> kimberlyblessing has joined #css
16:01:26 <Zakim> +Bert
16:01:39 <glazou> Zakim, mute duga
16:01:39 <Zakim> duga should now be muted
16:01:41 <cesar> zakim, aadd is me
16:01:43 <Zakim> +cesar; got it
16:01:45 <glazou> Zakim, unmute duga 
16:01:47 <Zakim> duga should no longer be muted
16:01:49 <Zakim> + +1.206.552.aaff
16:01:53 <glazou> Zakim, mute aabb
16:01:53 <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not know which phone connection belongs to aabb
16:01:54 <duga> thanks glazou
16:02:04 <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
16:02:08 <nimbupani> zakim, aaff is me
16:02:08 <Zakim> +nimbupani; got it
16:02:15 <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: cesar (35%)
16:02:37 <Zakim> + +1.206.550.aagg
16:02:47 <stearns> zakim, aagg is me
16:02:47 <Zakim> +stearns; got it
16:02:55 <florianr> florianr has joined #css
16:03:14 <Zakim> + +47.23.69.aahh
16:03:41 <howcome> howcome has joined #css
16:03:58 <glazou> Zakim, aahh is howcome 
16:03:58 <Zakim> +howcome; got it
16:04:06 <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
16:04:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, danielweck, [Microsoft], duga, duga.a, sylvaing, hober, ChrisL, Molly_Holzschlag, cesar, +1.215.286.aaee, [Microsoft.a], Bert, nimbupani, stearns,
16:04:14 <Zakim> ... howcome
16:04:20 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has arronei
16:04:20 <kimberlyblessing> Zakim, aaee is me
16:04:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see howcome, florianr, kimberlyblessing, cesar, oyvind, johnjansen, duga, alexmog, ChrisL, danielweck, arno, sylvaing, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, kojiishi, Ms2ger, myakura,
16:04:31 <Zakim> ... mollydotcom, nimbupani, Florian, stearns, arronei, Hixie, plinss, lhnz, Bert, davve, gsnedders, hober, TabAtkins, krijnh, CSSWG_LogBot, ed, fantasai, pjrm, trackbot, shepazu
16:04:35 <ChrisL> zakim, where is 215?
16:04:35 <tabatkins_> tabatkins_ has joined #css
16:04:40 <Zakim> +??P62
16:04:43 <Zakim> +kimberlyblessing; got it
16:04:46 <Zakim> + +1.425.246.aaii
16:04:48 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
16:04:50 <Zakim> North American dialing code 1.215 is Pennsylvania
16:04:51 <kimberlyblessing> ChrisL 215 is Philadelphia
16:04:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:04:52 <florianr> Zakim, I am ??P62
16:04:58 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:05:00 <Zakim> +florianr; got it
16:05:14 <alexmog> zakim, aaii is me
16:05:15 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
16:05:18 <Zakim> +alexmog; got it
16:05:22 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:05:32 <nimbupani> I can be.
16:05:33 <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aajj
16:05:46 <bradk> Zakim, aajj is me
16:05:47 <Zakim> +bradk; got it
16:05:47 <nimbupani> glazou: ^^
16:05:49 <Zakim> -bradk
16:06:08 <glazou> ScribeNick nimbupani 
16:06:16 <dbaron> ScribeNick: nimbupani
16:06:31 <nimbupani> bradk: wants to discuss epub discussion at TPAC
16:06:35 <dsinger_> dsinger_ has joined #css
16:06:37 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: wants to talk about … in 2.1
16:06:47 <nimbupani> fantasai: discuss values and units
16:06:48 <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aakk
16:06:49 <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aall
16:06:55 <tabatkins_> Zakim, aakk is me
16:06:55 <Zakim> +tabatkins_; got it
16:06:58 <arno> Zakim, aakk is me
16:07:02 <nimbupani> howcome: on Opera's implementation of GCPM
16:07:02 <Zakim> sorry, arno, I do not recognize a party named 'aakk'
16:07:12 <Zakim> +bradk
16:07:13 <nimbupani> glazou: aboutf2f in paris
16:07:19 <arno> zakim, aall is me
16:07:22 <nimbupani> glazou: there are 26 or 27 people registered which is a lot
16:07:29 <Zakim> +arno; got it
16:07:33 <nimbupani> glazou: 1st choice has max attendance of 24 so its not feasible
16:08:21 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
16:08:23 <nimbupani> glazou: w3c office in paris suggests we can have 2 meeting rooms. conf from 6th - 8th of Feb. It is in downtown, 14 mins from subway station
16:08:37 <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aamm
16:08:38 <dbaron> I added the map link to http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/paris-2012 (and also the dates).
16:08:40 <nimbupani> glazou: i will send list of hotels asap 
16:08:45 <smfr> Zakim, aamm is m
16:08:45 <Zakim> +m; got it
16:08:47 <smfr> Zakim, aamm is me
16:08:47 <Zakim> sorry, smfr, I do not recognize a party named 'aamm'
16:08:53 <nimbupani> Topic: TPAC
16:08:58 <glazou> http://www.w3.org/mid/7534F85A589E654EB1E44E5CFDC19E3D0C29DDAE47@wob-email-01.agfamonotype.org
16:09:01 <nimbupani> glazou: 2 reqs joint meeting with webfonts wg
16:09:21 <nimbupani> ??: webfonts is not meeting at tpac but some members will be there.
16:09:43 <nimbupani> glazou: ChrisL will be part of joint meeting on behalf of webfonts WG
16:09:56 <nimbupani> ChrisL: i dont have a preferred time. 4 or 5people might be there.
16:10:08 <nimbupani> ChrisL: the discussion topic is part of css3 fonts
16:10:23 <nimbupani> ChrisL: rather than be specific for WOFF rather than font face for all formats
16:10:33 <nimbupani> glazou: will john daggett attend TPAC?
16:10:53 <nimbupani> dbaron: i suspect he is, i am not sure.
16:11:06 <nimbupani> glazou: when is the best time to have meeting for japanese people in santa clara
16:11:19 <nimbupani> dbaron: 5pm in CA is 9am in Japan
16:11:42 <nimbupani> RESOLVED: Monday 5pm Web fonts joint meeting
16:11:45 <dbaron> or something, depending on sommer time
16:11:52 <Zakim> +??P13
16:12:01 <nimbupani> bradk: can only attend for one day. preference tuesday.
16:12:10 <nimbupani> RESOLVED: Tuesday meeting for e-pub
16:12:14 <tabatkins_> nimbupani: That's not Brad.
16:12:16 <nimbupani> oops
16:12:24 <nimbupani> who was it
16:12:28 <mollydotcom> Yes
16:12:31 <mollydotcom> Hang on
16:12:40 <mollydotcom> I built one out
16:12:45 <dbaron> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/paris-2012
16:12:59 <duga> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2011
16:13:05 <dbaron> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2011
16:13:33 <nimbupani> glazou: add meetings to the agenda http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2011
16:13:39 <tabatkins_> nimbupani: Suspect it was jdaggett
16:13:58 <stearns> I suspect it was brady duga
16:13:59 <nimbupani> mollydotcom: is there some activity on sunday?
16:14:07 <nimbupani> glazou: its a day of meeting for CSSWG
16:14:28 <duga> Yes, Brady not Brad
16:14:34 <nimbupani> ah
16:14:41 <nimbupani> s/bradk/brady
16:14:46 <nimbupani> glazou: bert do we have a room
16:14:58 <nimbupani> Bert: doubt it. i have not heard from orgn. Better to look for another place.
16:15:05 <nimbupani> glazou: who can host meeting on sunday
16:15:09 <nimbupani> fantasai: mozilla.
16:15:14 <nimbupani> mollydotcom: we could also ask stanford.
16:15:25 <nimbupani> ??: we can host in San jose @ Adobe
16:15:28 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
16:15:37 <dbaron> I think ?? was Arno
16:15:39 <nimbupani> glazou: san jose seems closest.
16:15:48 <arno> yep, that's me
16:15:54 <nimbupani> arno: will check it out and get an official answer this week.
16:16:15 <nimbupani> ChrisL: step out on monday 11-12
16:16:25 <sylvaing> I would also step out with ChrisL
16:16:29 <nimbupani> glazou: is there some overlap with AC meeting during days of CSS WG meeting.
16:16:37 <nimbupani> Florian: i am not but dont think so.
16:16:46 <nimbupani> glazou: if there is, he is not sure he is able to attend TPAC as he is sick.
16:16:55 <nimbupani> glazou: if I am the only one chairing I will have a problem
16:17:10 <nimbupani> Florian: there are AC meetings on tuesday
16:17:28 <nimbupani> Florian: there is AC exec session for AC chairs
16:17:42 <nimbupani> glazou: we will find a soln and I will discuss with ChrisL and Brady via email
16:17:42 <dbaron> https://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ac-agenda has AC starting at 2pm Tuesday
16:17:50 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: ^
16:17:53 <nimbupani> are u on call?
16:17:58 <tabatkins_> I"m here, one sec.
16:18:02 <ChrisL> attendees list for CSS WG at TPAC  http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2011/registrants#css
16:18:18 <nimbupani> TOPIC: Gradients 
16:18:40 <tabatkins_> Apparently no one can hear me. >_<
16:18:44 <nimbupani> nope
16:18:46 <glazou> no we can't
16:19:14 <nimbupani> glazou: like to have an update.
16:19:56 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: suggest we do what elika suggested defer final decision until TPAC and make quick decision and go to last call.
16:20:01 <nimbupani> ChrisL: i think its a good plan
16:20:28 <nimbupani> glazou: requesting everyone interested in gradients reads it and is ready before the joint TPAC
16:20:36 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: will alert when I got something that is not a placeholder
16:20:42 <nimbupani> glazou: how long do u need at TPAC
16:20:43 <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/radial-gradients
16:20:49 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: we need 20 to 30 mins
16:20:56 <nimbupani> Florian: for such a heated topic?
16:20:57 <smfr> 8 hours!
16:20:59 <nimbupani> ??: an hour
16:21:15 <nimbupani> glazou: TabAtkins can u add to TPAC wiki page
16:21:28 <arronei> s/??/arronei
16:21:44 <nimbupani> TOPIC: Implied types and att annotation
16:21:44 <glazou> http://www.w3.org/mid/CAAWBYDDasgHLxCjTk0gC-Qy_kmrt+Q_DqcuaukEB58d7=Dd8Pg@mail.gmail.com
16:21:54 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: minor issues 
16:21:55 <glazou> s/att annotation/attr() notation
16:22:19 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: there is an issue in spec for implied types. Wonder if we can have attr default to that type rather than string.
16:22:34 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: me and fantasai dont think its workable. you are breaking uses of attr in the wild
16:22:49 <Zakim> -danielweck
16:22:51 <nimbupani> howcome: by dropping issue you require type to be specified always?
16:22:57 <Zakim> +??P19
16:23:04 <danielweck> Zakim, ??P19 is me
16:23:04 <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
16:23:04 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: default to string
16:23:15 <fantasai> i/wild/if you change one of those properties to accept other types/
16:23:19 <nimbupani> howcome: issue comes up when you have width = 200 and you want width to be pixels
16:23:29 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: its not ideal. 
16:23:46 <nimbupani> glazou: does it have more downsides than upsides i dont htink its the case.
16:23:59 <nimbupani> howcome: if its a number its unlikely that you want it to be a string
16:24:06 <nimbupani> fantasai: then u need to parse to make sure its a number
16:24:22 <nimbupani> fantasai: if you want width to be pixels then you need to specify as pixels otherwise it would be a string.
16:24:28 <nimbupani> fantasai: you need to specify the unit
16:24:43 <nimbupani> howcome: wondering if there is something else smart we can do and save people typing 3 chars
16:24:53 <nimbupani> glazou: howcome do you want ot take an action item?
16:25:02 <nimbupani> howcome: i dont think i will create a counter proposal
16:25:27 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: alt is to allow properties to define default attr vals for themselves but seems like a lot of overhead
16:25:39 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: auto inference is not possible.
16:25:48 <nimbupani> howcome: if it has to be a default is string hte best?
16:25:59 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: one requires no parsing and cannot fail
16:26:10 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: for legacy reasons it is already required to be a string
16:26:21 <nimbupani> glazou: accept this for time being and then if we find something smarter we use that
16:26:33 <nimbupani> RESOLVED: accept default type of attr() as string
16:26:41 <nimbupani> TOPIC: Question from sylvaing about new stuff in CSS OM
16:26:45 <glazou> http://www.w3.org/mid/3C4041FF83E1E04A986B6DC50F01782938A101@TK5EX14MBXC297.redmond.corp.microsoft.com
16:26:52 <dsinger__> dsinger__ has joined #css
16:27:10 <dbaron> we have a wiki page now, at least!
16:27:11 <nimbupani> sylvaing: everytime we add a new @ rule we need a new constant in css4 for a new rule type
16:27:32 <nimbupani> sylvaing: how do you define them without creating conflicts, need a branch for prefixed version.
16:27:47 <nimbupani> sylvaing: one for viewport rule for e.g. brittle mechanism so what do we do next?
16:28:19 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: we can continue same way with numeric constant and standardize on wiki page. Wiki is normative defn for num consts. do same for ranges for vendor prefix constants
16:28:27 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: or switch over to string.
16:28:36 <nimbupani> dbaron: i dont think memory aspect of string is smthing to worry about.
16:28:45 <nimbupani> dbaron: good practice for api design is to use strings than constants.
16:28:55 <nimbupani> sylvaing: we should agree on a cut off point. 
16:29:06 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: agreed.
16:29:09 <Martijnc> Martijnc has joined #css
16:29:14 <nimbupani> glazou: is this smthing to forward to annevk?
16:29:17 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
16:29:19 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: ya
16:29:21 <dbaron> if we add a new string api, we could make all the things that don't get constants report UNKNOWN_RULE as the constant, or something like that.
16:29:25 <nimbupani> :s
16:29:50 <nimbupani> glazou: will it be a 20-30 min discussion at TPAC?
16:30:12 <nimbupani> sylvaing: we should tidy up and assign constants.
16:30:25 <nimbupani> dbaron: anne created a wiki page for the constants
16:30:37 <nimbupani> glazou: we will discuss what we do at TPAC
16:30:44 <dbaron> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/cssom-constants
16:30:55 <nimbupani> sylvaing: wondering for W3C reffing a wikipage anyone can edit is that scary
16:31:00 <nimbupani> glazou: are u sure about that?
16:31:12 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: only those with wiki accounts possibly the testers
16:31:23 <nimbupani> fantasai: we have ACLs for wiki page easy to restrict to wg
16:31:34 <nimbupani> ChrisL: we have complete changelog so malicious changes can be rolled back
16:31:48 <nimbupani> mollydotcom: assuming wiki is not that … in a secure way
16:31:55 <nimbupani> fantasai: right now entire wiki is public
16:32:06 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: restrict writing to WG members
16:32:19 <nimbupani> glazou: readable by public and writable only by working group members
16:32:24 <nimbupani> fantasai: which page. 
16:32:32 <nimbupani> glazou: the url dbaron pasted
16:32:47 <nimbupani> glazou: need to add viewport rule to that list
16:32:56 <mollydotcom> that's what I've been doing
16:33:02 <nimbupani> glazou: sylvaing edit wikipage for TPAC and add discussion
16:33:04 <mollydotcom> Sylvain: no need, just got it there
16:33:14 <mollydotcom> well, the discussion - I'm adding the URL
16:33:17 <glazou> http://www.w3.org/mid/CAHSVx=8sOOh=5Wr2cv4eUhT8AzWTdnPybpFF-WR5ujEqEESwiA@mail.gmail.com
16:33:18 <nimbupani> TOPIC: req from paul_irish on css3 conditional	
16:33:30 <nimbupani> glazou: dbaron i think u commented on that.
16:33:39 <nimbupani> glazou: adding an api matching
16:33:53 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: i dont think much needs to be discussed. dbaron seemed agreeable to adding that
16:33:58 <nimbupani> glazou: everyone agrees on that?
16:34:11 <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Oct/0323.html
16:34:13 <fantasai> cssom-constants is already locked down as edit only for css-wg members and a group made for other trusted members
16:34:23 <nimbupani> whats the resolution?
16:34:39 <nimbupani> TOPIC: LC for css3-speech
16:34:42 <danielweck> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-speech
16:35:29 <nimbupani> RESOLUTION: add paul irish's suggested api to the spec
16:35:34 <nimbupani> TOPIC: LC for css3-speech
16:35:41 <sylvaing> I can't edit the CSSOM Constants page anymore :(
16:35:56 <nimbupani> danielweck: Currently 18 issues filed. cant go thro each.
16:36:21 <fantasai> sylvaing, try now?
16:36:25 <nimbupani> danielweck: WG needs to reach consensus on each of these issues. When we accept suggested change in spec, whats the next step? 
16:37:00 <nimbupani> glazou: let the commenter know that you addressed the comments, say smthing about the resolution. that person needs to accept or reject your resolution of hte problem
16:37:01 <sylvaing> fantasai, thanks!
16:37:17 <nimbupani> danielweck: what about bigger issues? potential blocker language selection features for TTS voice.
16:37:24 <nimbupani> danielweck: irrespective of nature of markup.
16:37:47 <nimbupani> danielweck: would be a new feature, if we were to accept to introduce the new feature, we mark it at-risk and we republish another LC?
16:37:50 <nimbupani> ChrisL: yes
16:38:07 <nimbupani> glazou: or you can reject the feature and say you will consider for future version
16:38:48 <nimbupani> fantasai: if there is an issue where you and commenter is not agreeing escalate to WG either we make the change or reject. that becomes the official WG response, they either accept or formally object. tht will get recorded in the list of issues and presented to director.
16:39:07 <Zakim> -smfr
16:39:30 <nimbupani> fantasai: we can go to LC when commenter disagrees with us
16:39:45 <nimbupani> danielweck: paul ba* co-author of …
16:39:54 <glazou> bagshaw?
16:40:04 <nimbupani> danielweck: it was one of the major changes of 1.0 to 1.1 of SSML(?)
16:40:24 <nimbupani> danielweck: the abstract of css3 speech states that ssml 1.1 model it implies it follows to letter, it is more flexible goal
16:40:25 <Zakim> +smfr
16:40:34 <nimbupani> ChrisL: which of these options do u want to do? 
16:40:47 <nimbupani> danielweck: i would rather stick to our guns
16:41:07 <nimbupani> danielweck: forcing the implementers to convey a set of info about tts voices to styling engine
16:41:30 <nimbupani> danielweck: risk it will be implemented badly and normative stuff needs to be added to spec if it needs to work
16:41:40 <nimbupani> glazou: reasonable to reject and kind of argument we can show to dir.
16:41:48 <nimbupani> ChrisL: do we have a WG resolution to back that?
16:42:05 <nimbupani> danielweck: eventually perhaps next week we should go thro the issues and record the WG consensus
16:42:13 <nimbupani> danielweck: i am happy to work thro this one now.
16:42:29 <nimbupani> glazou: sounds perfect
16:42:43 <nimbupani> fantasai: make sure you end every response with "please let us know if this satisfies your concern"
16:42:46 <nimbupani> danielweck: totally
16:42:54 <Zakim> -ChrisL
16:43:22 <nimbupani> glazou: the FPWGPC and u still added them for official list of issues for last call
16:43:28 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:43:31 <nimbupani> glazou: you have an option to reject htem coz its too late.
16:43:37 <nimbupani> fantasai: they got an extension
16:43:42 <nimbupani> glazou: it arrived only ½ days ago
16:43:47 <nimbupani> er 1 or 2 days
16:44:35 <Zakim> -nimbupani
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16:45:09 <nimbupani1> oops got d/ced
16:45:24 <fantasai> danielweck: Many of their issues argue that the features in CSS Speech hijack the screen-reader experience, which is.. interesting.
16:45:32 <Zakim> +nimbupani
16:45:33 <fantasai> danielweck: I think we need to clarify that
16:45:58 <nimbupani1> RESOLVED: WG backs danielweck's decision to reject issue-2 for good technical reasons.
16:46:12 <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-speech#issue-2
16:46:15 <Zakim> -glazou
16:46:21 <nimbupani1> ChrisL: are u clear on next steps danielweck?
16:46:36 <nimbupani1> danielweck: i hope you can take a look at the issues next week so we can make informed decision 
16:46:54 <nimbupani1> ChrisL: listing of issues and then look at commenters disagreed on resolution.
16:47:14 <fantasai> danielweck, just let me know when you're done with the DoC in the wiki and I'll convert and colorize it for you
16:47:22 <nimbupani> TOPIC: 2.1 inherit 
16:47:28 <danielweck> Thanks Fantasai!
16:47:38 <ChrisL> tab 2.1 inherit http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14420
16:47:42 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: address issue on inital value in draft
16:47:55 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: orgn 2.1 said inherit computed to computed value of its parents
16:48:12 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: currently: if cascaded value is inherit specified value = specified value of parent. both wrong
16:48:20 <nimbupani> dbaron: currently sez is ambiguous 
16:48:34 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: if cascade value is inherit, specified value is computed value.
16:48:39 <nimbupani> Florian: what is specified value
16:48:53 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: specified value is pre-any-transformation any value
16:49:08 <sylvaing> thought specified was the value written by the author in their stylesheet
16:49:22 <nimbupani> dbaron: whats not clear to me is why specified value isnt just inherit
16:49:28 <ChrisL> if the parent value is also inherit?
16:49:50 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:50:10 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: not how normal inheritance works, 2. issues with inherit being a specified value, probably not a problem in practice.
16:50:17 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: consistency with real inheritance. 
16:50:41 <fantasai> /works/, inheritance takes the computed value of the parent as the specified value on the child/
16:50:49 <oyvind> seems like there's some duplication in 6.2.1 vs 6.1.1...
16:50:51 <nimbupani> ChrisL: i dont hear anyone expressing much of an opinion. are people comfortable with the change. it would be an errata.
16:50:59 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: it would also change values * units
16:51:14 <nimbupani> dbaron: change in 6.1.1 and 6.2.1
16:51:25 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: both needs to be changed
16:51:38 <fantasai> The spec generally assumes that the specified value resolves to a real value, and says "if the specified value is foo, do ..." in many places
16:51:40 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: we will resolve inherit and initial at that point.
16:52:15 <nimbupani> howcome: its consistent with css3 cascade module
16:52:17 <oyvind> sylvaing, I think it changed after http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Mar/0507.html
16:52:25 <nimbupani> whats the resolution
16:52:53 <Zakim> -danielweck
16:52:56 <Zakim> -SteveZ
16:53:03 <nimbupani> RESOLVED: accept TabAtkins and fantasai inherit turns the specified value into the parent's computed value
16:53:15 <Zakim> +??P19
16:53:18 <ChrisL> fantasai/tab CSS 3 V@U issues http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/products/8
16:53:29 <nimbupani> RESOLVED: accept TabAtkins and fantasai's proposal such that inherit turns the specified value into the parent's computed value
16:53:33 <danielweck> Zakim, ??P19 is me
16:53:33 <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
16:54:10 <nimbupani> fantasai: vm unit is really a v min unit min of vh and vw
16:54:21 <nimbupani> fantasai: since we hae a min f() we can remove it.
16:54:27 <nimbupani> fantasai: alt we can rename it
16:54:35 <nimbupani> fantasai: its not clear what it is
16:54:38 <fantasai> to vmin
16:54:47 <nimbupani> dbaron: concerned coz min() is at risk and likely to get dropped
16:55:13 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: at min we should rename to vmin we can mark it as at-risk and at our at-risk notes one or the other should be dropped
16:55:29 <nimbupani> howcome: : why dont we continue to have 2char units
16:55:39 <nimbupani> fantasai: i dont think its worth the confusion
16:56:09 <nimbupani> ChrisL: is that a strong obj
16:56:14 <fantasai> fantasai: Could stand for vmin or vmax
16:56:18 <nimbupani> howcome: going to 4 is suddenly outside of tradition
16:56:18 <fantasai> tabatkins_: or vmean :)
16:56:34 <nimbupani> ChrisL: in this case there is a motivation for the change as its ambiguous
16:56:59 <nimbupani> fantasai: vmin makes it very obv to person reading the stylesheet
16:57:08 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: salvage min f() it would be preferable
16:57:27 <nimbupani> ??: are there places where u can use unit cant use min
16:57:43 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: calc should be usable anywhere that expects a length (min/max too)
16:57:54 <nimbupani> ??: even with 4 char its compact than using min
16:57:58 <Zakim> -duga.a
16:58:23 <nimbupani> mollydotcom: does not have an opinion at this point.
16:58:33 <nimbupani> mollydotcom: vmin on its own make more sense
16:58:41 <fantasai> min(5vh, 5vw)
16:58:44 <fantasai> vs 5vmin
16:59:37 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: we can see if there is any use in the wild of those
16:59:46 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: not sure what the usecase of vmin
17:00:02 <nimbupani> howcome: make sure your image does not get outof hte viewport
17:00:12 <nimbupani> mollydotcom: cant imagine a usecase
17:00:19 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:00:22 <fantasai> howcome, use max-height: 100%; max-width: 100%;
17:00:25 <nimbupani> ??: no vmax to ensure complete coverage?
17:00:48 <Zakim> -howcome
17:00:54 <nimbupani> ChrisL: cant get to your topic howcome is it okay to do it on next call
17:01:02 <nimbupani> ChrisL: lets take it to email.
17:01:09 <nimbupani> ChrisL: call adjourned!
17:01:16 <nimbupani> bye!
17:01:17 <bradk> Just use 71% ;)
17:01:20 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:01:21 <Zakim> -kimberlyblessing
17:01:22 <Zakim> -smfr
17:01:23 <Zakim> -Molly_Holzschlag
17:01:23 <Zakim> -hober
17:01:23 <oyvind> max-height/-width only works if containing block is the ICB, right?
17:01:24 <Zakim> -sylvaing
17:01:24 <Zakim> -ChrisL
17:01:25 <smfr> smfr has left #css
17:01:25 <Zakim> -arno
17:01:27 <Zakim> -tabatkins_
17:01:29 <Zakim> -??P13
17:01:31 <Zakim> -cesar
17:01:33 <Zakim> -duga
17:01:35 <Zakim> -nimbupani
17:01:37 <fantasai> oyvind: ah, good point
17:01:39 <Zakim> -stearns
17:01:41 <Zakim> -alexmog
17:01:43 <Zakim> -Bert
17:01:45 <Zakim> -florianr
17:01:47 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:01:47 <florianr> florianr has left #css
17:01:49 <Zakim> -danielweck
17:01:51 <fantasai> oyvind: max-height: 100vh; max-width: 100vw
17:02:13 <bradk> nimbupani, that was me with the vmax comment
17:02:19 <nimbupani> bradk: oops
17:02:26 <nimbupani> fantasai: will fix it =)
17:02:29 <bradk> 's OK
17:02:43 <Zakim> -bradk
17:02:44 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:02:45 <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, danielweck, johnjansen, +1.949.477.aaaa, +1.206.324.aabb, +1.619.846.aacc, duga, hober, ChrisL, Molly_Holzschlag, sylvaing, +975901aadd, +1.215.286.aaee,
17:02:50 <Zakim> ... [Microsoft], arronei, Bert, cesar, +1.206.552.aaff, nimbupani, +1.206.550.aagg, stearns, +47.23.69.aahh, howcome, kimberlyblessing, +1.425.246.aaii, [IPcaller], florianr,
17:02:52 <Zakim> ... alexmog, SteveZ, +1.650.275.aajj, dbaron, bradk, +1.281.305.aakk, +1.415.832.aall, tabatkins_, arno, +1.408.636.aamm, smfr
17:03:00 <oyvind> fantasai, right, I guess that would work
17:03:11 <dbaron> TabAtkins, someday I should sit down with you and explain how hard min() and max() are...
17:03:41 <mollydotcom> dbaron: I'd like to understand
17:04:04 <mollydotcom> dbaron: I think it would make a fascinating article for devs
17:05:26 <ChrisL> I would be interested also,conceptually min and max functions seems simple
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17:05:49 <Ms2ger> ChrisL, like floats? :)
17:06:18 <ChrisL> like IEEE floats with scientific notation.dead simple
17:06:19 <sylvaing> they seem simple, but how often do you nest them in a tree and then resolve them ?
17:06:47 <ChrisL> so it needs a rootwards tree walk to resolve?
17:07:11 <sylvaing> rootwards sounds like a dental procedure
17:07:14 <ChrisL> is there an issue with circularity?
17:12:25 <dbaron> no, the problem is that many times percentage widths are used in computations in manners other than "take the input and multiply it by the percentage"
17:12:54 <dbaron> one of the problems, anyway
17:13:24 <mollydotcom> can you give a simple example?
17:13:47 <dbaron> I believe calc() with min() and max() allows all piecewise-linear continuous functions from percentage-basis to result, which makes things pretty messy.
17:14:05 <dbaron> An example would be:
17:14:34 <dbaron> <table><tr><td style="width: 25%"><div style="width: 100px"></div></td><td>second cell</td></tr></table>
17:14:40 <dbaron> the table ends up 400px wide
17:16:07 <mollydotcom> is there another width somewhere on the table?
17:16:11 <mollydotcom> this is where I'm confused.
17:17:05 <mollydotcom> 25% of what is my question.
17:17:26 <sylvaing> mollydotcom, no. content of the first cell is 100px, but because it's also 25% of the total you end up with a 400px table
17:18:35 <mollydotcom> ah okay, took me a minute
17:18:38 <mollydotcom> ;)
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18:08:36 <dbaron> fantasai, so given that everybody seems to forget about the 1/100 factor for vh/vw/vm, I really wonder if we shouldn't have the 1/100 factor...
18:09:46 <nimbupani1> +1
18:14:46 <dbaron> hmm, I wrote a response and then realized the email I was responding to was on the WG list...
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18:23:53 <dbaron> arronei, is it ok with you if I reply to https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2011OctDec/0041.html on the public list, quoting part of your message?
18:33:23 <TabAtkins> dbaron: Sounds like a plan.  When would you like to do so?
18:33:39 <dbaron> TabAtkins, at tpac?
18:33:53 <TabAtkins> kk
18:35:34 <TabAtkins> dbaron: (reading scrollback) Yeah, that table example is why I tried arguing against that behavior last time it came up.  Layout should proceed downward as much as possible.
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