IRC log of ua on 2011-10-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:47:05 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:47:05 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-ua-irc
16:47:07 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:47:08 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:47:09 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:47:10 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:47:10 [trackbot]
Date: 06 October 2011
16:47:10 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
16:49:17 [kford]
Agenda+ UAAG needs to address browsers inheriting of OS settings related to accessibility - Discussion with members of the Protocols and Formats working group http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/details?comment_id=78#main
16:49:19 [kford]
Agenda+ Register for TPAC http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ review CSS3
16:49:21 [kford]
Agenda+ Review proposals sent to list
16:49:22 [kford]
Agenda+ review comments -
16:49:24 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JulSep/0010.html
16:49:25 [kford]
Agenda update on 1.7.x + y
16:49:27 [kford]
Agenda+ Action Item Review
16:49:48 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:49:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-ua-minutes.html kford
16:50:36 [kford]
Chair: Jim_Allan, Kelly_Ford
16:51:05 [kford]
zakim, coe?
16:51:05 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, kford.
16:51:11 [kford]
zakim, code?
16:51:11 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), kford
16:51:18 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:51:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.883.aaaa
16:51:57 [kford]
zakim, 1.425.883.aaaa is kford
16:51:57 [Zakim]
sorry, kford, I do not recognize a party named '1.425.883.aaaa'
16:52:25 [kford]
zakim, +1.425.883.aaaa is kford
16:52:25 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
16:55:00 [JAllan]
JAllan has joined #ua
16:57:13 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
16:57:39 [AlexQiangChen]
AlexQiangChen has joined #ua
16:58:02 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
16:58:11 [Zakim]
+??P5
16:58:25 [Zakim]
+??P6
16:58:35 [janina]
zakim, ??P6 is Janina
16:58:35 [Zakim]
+Janina; got it
16:58:54 [AlexQiangChen]
zakim, ??P5 is AlexQiangChen
16:58:54 [Zakim]
+AlexQiangChen; got it
16:59:07 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:00:29 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:00:44 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here
17:00:44 [Zakim]
jeanne, you need to end that query with '?'
17:00:49 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
17:00:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kford, Jim_Allan, AlexQiangChen, Janina, Jeanne
17:00:50 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Jan, jeanne, AlexQiangChen, JAllan, Zakim, RRSAgent, kford, janina, trackbot
17:01:53 [Zakim]
+??P24
17:02:17 [Jan]
zakim, ??P24 is really Jan
17:02:18 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:03:44 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
17:04:08 [Zakim]
+ +1.609.734.aabb
17:04:26 [jeanne]
zakim, aabb is really Mark
17:04:27 [Zakim]
+Mark; got it
17:04:45 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:07:13 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has joined #ua
17:09:34 [richardschwerdtfe]
richardschwerdtfe has joined #ua
17:10:19 [Zakim]
+Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:11:19 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:12:25 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
17:13:44 [Zakim]
+[Apple]
17:14:19 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
17:14:23 [jcraig]
jcraig has joined #ua
17:14:37 [jcraig]
Zakim, who is on the call?
17:14:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kford, AlexQiangChen, Janina, Jeanne, Jan, Kim_Patch, Mark, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, [Microsoft], [Apple], Jim_Allan
17:14:45 [jcraig]
Zakim, Apple has jcraig
17:14:45 [Zakim]
+jcraig; got it
17:14:58 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
17:14:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kford, AlexQiangChen, Janina, Jeanne, Jan, Kim_Patch, Mark, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, [Microsoft], [Apple], Jim_Allan
17:15:00 [Zakim]
[Apple] has jcraig
17:15:02 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jcraig, richardschwerdtfe, mhakkinen, KimPatch, Jan, jeanne, AlexQiangChen, JAllan, Zakim, RRSAgent, kford, janina, trackbot
17:15:06 [JAllan]
scribe: jallan
17:15:35 [JAllan]
Title: Joint UA & PF telecon
17:15:47 [JAllan]
all: introductions
17:16:20 [jeanne]
zakim, Microsoft is Cynthia
17:16:20 [Zakim]
+Cynthia; got it
17:16:23 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:16:23 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:16:24 [Zakim]
1. UAAG needs to address browsers inheriting of OS settings related to accessibility - Discussion with members of the Protocols and Formats working group
17:16:28 [Zakim]
... http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/details?comment_id=78#main [from kford]
17:16:29 [Zakim]
2. Register for TPAC http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ review CSS3 [from kford]
17:16:31 [Zakim]
3. Review proposals sent to list [from kford]
17:16:33 [Zakim]
4. review comments - [from kford]
17:16:34 [Zakim]
5. Action Item Review [from kford]
17:16:40 [jcraig]
Zakim, Microsoft has Cynthia
17:16:40 [Zakim]
sorry, jcraig, I do not recognize a party named 'Microsoft'
17:17:03 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
17:17:03 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "UAAG needs to address browsers inheriting of OS settings related to accessibility - Discussion with members of the Protocols and Formats working group
17:17:06 [Zakim]
... http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/details?comment_id=78#main" taken up [from kford]
17:18:57 [JAllan]
js: call is in relation to comment on ARIA spec
17:19:43 [JAllan]
rs: OS settings. how is UAWG picking up OS settings (color, high contrast) and enhancing the user experience
17:20:30 [JAllan]
kf: UAAG has several different guidelines. UA should respect and not interfer with OS settings
17:20:44 [JAllan]
rs: does UAAG list any
17:21:49 [JAllan]
kf: can list more. also add information in the IER (intent, examples, resources) for specific success criteria
17:22:12 [jcraig]
q+ to discuss comment 78
17:22:46 [JAllan]
... we want to give enough guidance, we will review and expand as necessary.
17:23:16 [JAllan]
rs: what about platform keyboard conventions (control-p) to print
17:23:29 [Jan]
5.3.2 Implement Accessibility Features of platform
17:23:32 [JAllan]
js: we have those, should be respected
17:23:35 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110922/
17:24:15 [JAllan]
jc: how are we planning to expose. or are suggesting that they should be exposed.
17:24:50 [JAllan]
kf: in response to rs, UAAG responds and accepts standard operating keys
17:25:16 [JAllan]
... are we passing the keys to the web app?
17:25:50 [JAllan]
jc: are we talking about comment 78. confused as to purpose of meeting.
17:26:02 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110922/#sc-416 4.1.6 is the properties
17:26:07 [JAllan]
js: review issue 375
17:26:39 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110922/#sc-411 <- 4.1.1 Platform Accessibility Architecture
17:27:05 [kford]
Action: kford ensure UAAG has a current list of expected operating system accessibility conventions, e.g. high contrast.
17:27:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-621 - Ensure UAAG has a current list of expected operating system accessibility conventions, e.g. high contrast. [on Kelly Ford - due 2011-10-13].
17:27:07 [JAllan]
jc: proposal, User Agent User Interface Independence, extension to javascript
17:27:25 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110922/#sc-532 <- 5.3.2 Implement Accessibility Features of platform:
17:27:30 [janina]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/365
17:27:38 [JAllan]
... verbosity settings, tab preferences, screen reader, etc
17:28:05 [JAllan]
... anyone reviewed, will it work?
17:28:11 [JAllan]
all: silence
17:28:30 [jcraig]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html#identification
17:28:37 [cyns]
cyns has joined #UA
17:28:57 [jcraig]
window.navigator.accessibility.screenreader.active
17:29:05 [JAllan]
jc: extensions to navigator object
17:30:17 [JAllan]
jc: specific example...full keyboard access
17:30:50 [JAllan]
ja: UAAG is high level, not technical
17:31:40 [JAllan]
jeanne: opposed to AT settings for privacy. want the user to control what they see. so if want mobile version, can get it
17:32:04 [JAllan]
cs: how to users feel about privacy issue...any data
17:32:45 [JAllan]
jc: user would be prompted to provide information. Users like option of opting out.
17:33:42 [JAllan]
kf: anecdotal evidence is total opposite...want to keep AT use private, majority in US
17:33:52 [richardschwerdtfe]
q+
17:33:58 [JAllan]
jc: his data is from working groups.
17:34:18 [JAllan]
mh: in past have strong concerns about privacy
17:34:47 [JAllan]
jc: UA setting for sharing information on AT use
17:34:56 [JAllan]
kf: what is status of proposal
17:35:32 [JAllan]
js: Judy and others about to charter group (Intentional Events)
17:36:29 [JAllan]
jc: beginning of document explains the intention as abstract from physical action
17:37:40 [JAllan]
rs: Access4All confirms kf privacy concern. Not that they needed AT but had preference for specific changes to content
17:37:56 [janina]
q+
17:38:18 [richardschwerdtfe]
ack richardschwerdtfe
17:38:22 [JAllan]
jc: David Singer made a CSS proposal along similar veing
17:38:27 [JAllan]
ack jcraig
17:38:27 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to discuss comment 78
17:39:25 [JAllan]
rs: mac will know if user turns on voiceover, then UA will know and could communicate to author/content
17:40:24 [JAllan]
kf: we have morphed to different area. RS ... UA should be aware of xyz OS accessibility and implement
17:40:27 [richardschwerdtfe]
brb
17:40:43 [JAllan]
kf: this is a new area.
17:41:23 [JAllan]
kp: UAAG talks alot about keyboard control and clashes (settings and preferences), this may be useful
17:43:27 [JAllan]
jeanne: what do we need to add to support ARIA in UAAG.
17:44:13 [JAllan]
kf: UAWG can review proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html
17:44:28 [JAllan]
... and comment
17:44:37 [richardschwerdtfe]
back
17:45:07 [JAllan]
kf: are there other things we may be missing?
17:45:34 [JAllan]
rs: as long as you map to a11y layer, should be ok
17:46:27 [JAllan]
rs: keyboard access. on a mobile device may not have keyboard. what needs to be added
17:47:01 [JAllan]
rs: needs to be something in UAAG about non-keyboard access.
17:47:28 [JAllan]
jc: on whatever platform, the chrome and view must be accessible.
17:47:56 [JAllan]
... file bugs on given platforms,
17:48:27 [JAllan]
rs: example. webpage that is keyboard accessible, how does it make accessible via gesture
17:50:02 [JAllan]
kf: level of detail in UAAG today, in the mobile scenario, allow the user to navigate to all navigable and focusable elements. would be a Success Criteria. then expand in the intent
17:50:47 [JAllan]
... any user can navigate and operate a webpage without a keyboard (using gesture0
17:51:19 [JAllan]
jr: not only gesture, may be keypad (phone), voice based, etc.
17:51:47 [JAllan]
rs: want to spec higher level events arrows (up, down, previous, next)
17:52:16 [JAllan]
kf: this is totally needed,
17:53:09 [JAllan]
rs: need something that talks to the higher level functions (alternate input solutions) to generate events based on input method
17:53:38 [JAllan]
kf: current UAAG, should we define this, or wait for the intent proposal to do it,
17:53:51 [JAllan]
... we are concerned with end user functionality.
17:54:12 [JAllan]
jc: agree...wait. let intent group spec these.
17:56:06 [JAllan]
kf: actionable items...review UAAG for mobile, PF could review UAAG to see if anything is missing, new working draft with call outs for these discussed issues
17:56:23 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:56:59 [JAllan]
jc: comment 78, issue 365 on aria, commenter wants to override everything and it should work
17:57:44 [JAllan]
... slider could control style, and keyboard action and it still work
17:58:00 [Zakim]
-Jan
17:58:25 [JAllan]
... html5 slider, author can control look and feel, uesr can override, it will work
17:58:39 [JAllan]
... but some aria control...it won't work
17:58:49 [JAllan]
kf: out of scope of UAAG.
17:59:07 [JAllan]
jc: UAAG should have overrides for CSS
17:59:29 [JAllan]
kf: yes CSS and keyboard mapping
17:59:52 [JAllan]
... and keyboard controls.
18:00:07 [JAllan]
... more than that would be difficult if not impossible.
18:00:37 [JAllan]
kf: comment 78, point to UAAG, it should be covered
18:00:49 [JAllan]
kf: are there other issues?
18:02:04 [JAllan]
janina: concerned about device access, multiple sound cards (usb, etc), use one to dedicate for screen reader...does UA need to know what the OS is doing.
18:02:30 [JAllan]
... some audio to headset, some to audio card x, others to y
18:02:48 [JAllan]
kf: this sounds like an OS issue.
18:03:25 [JAllan]
... on windows. Screen readers and magnifier allow multiple audio output.
18:03:49 [mhakkinen]
+q
18:04:05 [JAllan]
janina: if screen reader is pointing to device 2, the UA should honor it.
18:04:47 [JAllan]
jc: this is an OS issue. it should control where audio is going. MAC has this functionality.
18:05:35 [JAllan]
js: voip, bigger issue, direct phone to one device, media to different device
18:06:33 [JAllan]
kf: screen readers are asking which device gets the sound (default and alternates . . speakers, headphones, etc)
18:07:03 [JAllan]
... UA could have a setting to say where to play audio.
18:07:49 [JAllan]
js: different streams to different devices is fine, but to restrict and block all other streams for each device
18:08:05 [JAllan]
mh: GL 1.6 don't we do this already.
18:08:07 [jcraig]
s/MAC/Mac/
18:08:24 [JAllan]
js: honor OS settings for volume?
18:08:34 [JAllan]
kf: yes we have that
18:09:10 [JAllan]
js: at some time it becomes an accessibility preference.
18:09:47 [JAllan]
kf: some setting, never play x on device y. the UA should respect that. we cover that.
18:10:45 [JAllan]
cs: which things should be covered by UA and which by AT. should be more on the AT.
18:11:03 [JAllan]
jc: are you asking for AT
18:11:27 [JAllan]
cs: want requirements for AT to be more standards compliant.
18:11:36 [jcraig]
q?
18:12:14 [jcraig]
q+ to discuss that AT standardization could limit interface differentiation
18:12:23 [JAllan]
rs: how to monitor that? AT merging on mobile
18:13:20 [JAllan]
kf: UAAG has tried to separate AT. in some cases AT has done things that should be in base UA
18:14:13 [JAllan]
... authors need to have expectations that user will have an accessible experience
18:15:04 [mhakkinen]
-q
18:15:31 [jcraig]
ack jan
18:15:54 [jcraig]
ack j
18:15:54 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to discuss that AT standardization could limit interface differentiation
18:15:59 [JAllan]
js: where do we draw the line. eg. support for multilingual documents, parse document and preload languages for quick switching
18:17:25 [jcraig]
acj c
18:17:34 [jcraig]
ackc
18:17:44 [jcraig]
ack C
18:17:56 [JAllan]
jc: perhaps a list that AT should support. AT should support ARIA, canvas, etc. but stay away from user interface issues, keyboard definitions
18:18:11 [jcraig]
s/acj c//
18:18:21 [jcraig]
s/ackc//
18:18:35 [JAllan]
cs: go through UAAG, when user agent is mentioned determine UA or AT or combo.
18:19:02 [JAllan]
kf: we have worked hard. UA mean UA not AT.
18:19:30 [JAllan]
cs: can we user 'browser', UA is broad.
18:20:01 [JAllan]
kf: working on comprehensive definition of UA (wcag, etc)
18:20:39 [JAllan]
jeanne: for previous drafts, we eliminated AT from UAAG, but have gotten some push back due to defs
18:21:01 [jcraig]
q?
18:22:54 [JAllan]
kf: discussion of language switching
18:23:15 [JAllan]
jc: works in IOS, can override lang tag
18:23:50 [JAllan]
kf: works in windows (auto lang switching)
18:24:09 [JAllan]
janina: switching an issue in Orca
18:24:20 [jcraig]
s/works in IOS, can override lang tag/auto-switches voice by @lang on iOS, but user can override that voice if the web page specifies the language incorrectly/
18:24:30 [richardschwerdtfe]
I have to drop folks
18:24:31 [richardschwerdtfe]
over time
18:24:47 [Zakim]
-Rich_Schwerdtfeger
18:24:50 [JAllan]
cs: what does AT do.
18:24:56 [richardschwerdtfe]
richardschwerdtfe has left #ua
18:25:29 [JAllan]
kf: it is not UAAG job to tell AT what to do. That should be a different document.
18:25:35 [jcraig]
q?
18:26:06 [JAllan]
js: lang is part of html, what should AT do to support it properly? what is properly?
18:27:38 [Zakim]
-Mark
18:27:40 [Zakim]
-[Apple]
18:27:41 [Zakim]
-Cynthia
18:27:44 [Zakim]
-AlexQiangChen
18:27:45 [Zakim]
-Janina
18:27:46 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
18:27:48 [janina]
janina has left #ua
18:27:51 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
18:27:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kford, Jeanne, Jim_Allan
18:27:52 [JAllan]
rrsagent: make minutes
18:27:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:27:52 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jcraig, mhakkinen, KimPatch, jeanne, AlexQiangChen, JAllan, Zakim, RRSAgent, kford, trackbot
18:28:04 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has left #ua
18:34:37 [JAllan]
rrsagent, set logs public
18:41:11 [JAllan]
zakim, please part
18:41:11 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were kford, Jim_Allan, Janina, AlexQiangChen, Jeanne, Jan, Kim_Patch, +1.609.734.aabb, Mark, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, jcraig, Cynthia
18:41:11 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:42:17 [jcraig]
jcraig has left #ua
18:42:27 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:42:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:44:50 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
18:44:50 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-ua-actions.rdf :
18:44:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kford ensure UAAG has a current list of expected operating system accessibility conventions, e.g. high contrast. [1]
18:44:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-ua-irc#T17-27-05