16:47:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:47:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-ua-irc
16:47:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:47:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
16:47:09 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:47:10 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:47:10 <trackbot> Date: 06 October 2011
16:47:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
16:49:17 <kford> Agenda+ UAAG needs to address browsers inheriting of OS settings related to accessibility - Discussion with members of the Protocols and Formats working group  http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/details?comment_id=78#main
16:49:19 <kford> Agenda+ Register for TPAC http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ review CSS3
16:49:21 <kford> Agenda+ Review proposals sent to list
16:49:22 <kford> Agenda+ review comments -
16:49:24 <kford> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JulSep/0010.html
16:49:25 <kford> Agenda update on 1.7.x + y
16:49:27 <kford> Agenda+ Action Item Review
16:49:48 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
16:49:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-ua-minutes.html kford
16:50:36 <kford> Chair: Jim_Allan, Kelly_Ford
16:51:05 <kford> zakim, coe?
16:51:05 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, kford.
16:51:11 <kford> zakim, code?
16:51:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), kford
16:51:18 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:51:25 <Zakim> + +1.425.883.aaaa
16:51:57 <kford> zakim, 1.425.883.aaaa is kford
16:51:57 <Zakim> sorry, kford, I do not recognize a party named '1.425.883.aaaa'
16:52:25 <kford> zakim, +1.425.883.aaaa is kford
16:52:25 <Zakim> +kford; got it
16:55:00 <JAllan> JAllan has joined #ua
16:57:13 <Zakim> +Jim_Allan
16:57:39 <AlexQiangChen> AlexQiangChen has joined #ua
16:58:02 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #ua
16:58:11 <Zakim> +??P5
16:58:25 <Zakim> +??P6
16:58:35 <janina> zakim, ??P6 is Janina
16:58:35 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
16:58:54 <AlexQiangChen> zakim, ??P5 is AlexQiangChen
16:58:54 <Zakim> +AlexQiangChen; got it
16:59:07 <Zakim> +Jeanne
17:00:29 <Jan> Jan has joined #ua
17:00:44 <jeanne> zakim, who is here
17:00:44 <Zakim> jeanne, you need to end that query with '?'
17:00:49 <jeanne> zakim, who is here?
17:00:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see kford, Jim_Allan, AlexQiangChen, Janina, Jeanne
17:00:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see Jan, jeanne, AlexQiangChen, JAllan, Zakim, RRSAgent, kford, janina, trackbot
17:01:53 <Zakim> +??P24
17:02:17 <Jan> zakim, ??P24 is really Jan
17:02:18 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
17:03:44 <Zakim> +Kim_Patch
17:04:08 <Zakim> + +1.609.734.aabb
17:04:26 <jeanne> zakim, aabb is really Mark
17:04:27 <Zakim> +Mark; got it
17:04:45 <KimPatch> KimPatch has joined #ua
17:07:13 <mhakkinen> mhakkinen has joined #ua
17:09:34 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #ua
17:10:19 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:11:19 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:12:25 <Zakim> -Jim_Allan
17:13:44 <Zakim> +[Apple]
17:14:19 <Zakim> +Jim_Allan
17:14:23 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #ua
17:14:37 <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the call?
17:14:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see kford, AlexQiangChen, Janina, Jeanne, Jan, Kim_Patch, Mark, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, [Microsoft], [Apple], Jim_Allan
17:14:45 <jcraig> Zakim, Apple has jcraig
17:14:45 <Zakim> +jcraig; got it
17:14:58 <jeanne> zakim, who is here?
17:14:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see kford, AlexQiangChen, Janina, Jeanne, Jan, Kim_Patch, Mark, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, [Microsoft], [Apple], Jim_Allan
17:15:00 <Zakim> [Apple] has jcraig
17:15:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see jcraig, richardschwerdtfe, mhakkinen, KimPatch, Jan, jeanne, AlexQiangChen, JAllan, Zakim, RRSAgent, kford, janina, trackbot
17:15:06 <JAllan> scribe: jallan
17:15:35 <JAllan> Title: Joint UA & PF telecon
17:15:47 <JAllan> all: introductions
17:16:20 <jeanne> zakim, Microsoft is Cynthia
17:16:20 <Zakim> +Cynthia; got it
17:16:23 <kford> zakim, agenda?
17:16:23 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:16:24 <Zakim> 1. UAAG needs to address browsers inheriting of OS settings related to accessibility - Discussion with members of the Protocols and Formats working group 
17:16:28 <Zakim> ... http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/details?comment_id=78#main [from kford]
17:16:29 <Zakim> 2. Register for TPAC http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ review CSS3 [from kford]
17:16:31 <Zakim> 3. Review proposals sent to list [from kford]
17:16:33 <Zakim> 4. review comments - [from kford]
17:16:34 <Zakim> 5. Action Item Review [from kford]
17:16:40 <jcraig> Zakim, Microsoft has Cynthia
17:16:40 <Zakim> sorry, jcraig, I do not recognize a party named 'Microsoft'
17:17:03 <kford> zakim, take up item 1
17:17:03 <Zakim> agendum 1. "UAAG needs to address browsers inheriting of OS settings related to accessibility - Discussion with members of the Protocols and Formats working group 
17:17:06 <Zakim> ... http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/details?comment_id=78#main" taken up [from kford]
17:18:57 <JAllan> js: call is in relation to comment on ARIA spec
17:19:43 <JAllan> rs: OS settings. how is UAWG picking up OS settings (color, high contrast) and enhancing the user experience
17:20:30 <JAllan> kf: UAAG has several different guidelines. UA should respect and not interfer with OS settings
17:20:44 <JAllan> rs: does UAAG list any
17:21:49 <JAllan> kf: can list more. also add information in the IER (intent, examples, resources) for specific success criteria
17:22:12 <jcraig> q+ to discuss comment 78
17:22:46 <JAllan> ... we want to give enough guidance, we will review and expand as necessary.
17:23:16 <JAllan> rs: what about platform keyboard conventions (control-p) to print
17:23:29 <Jan> 5.3.2 Implement Accessibility Features of platform
17:23:32 <JAllan> js: we have those, should be respected
17:23:35 <Jan> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110922/
17:24:15 <JAllan> jc: how are we planning to expose. or are suggesting that they should be exposed.
17:24:50 <JAllan> kf: in response to rs, UAAG responds and accepts standard operating keys
17:25:16 <JAllan> ... are we passing the keys to the web app?
17:25:50 <JAllan> jc: are we talking about comment 78. confused as to purpose of meeting.
17:26:02 <jeanne> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110922/#sc-416  4.1.6 is the properties 
17:26:07 <JAllan> js: review issue 375
17:26:39 <jeanne> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110922/#sc-411 <- 4.1.1 Platform Accessibility Architecture
17:27:05 <kford> Action: kford ensure UAAG has a current list of expected operating system accessibility conventions, e.g. high contrast.
17:27:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-621 - Ensure UAAG has a current list of expected operating system accessibility conventions, e.g. high contrast. [on Kelly Ford - due 2011-10-13].
17:27:07 <JAllan> jc: proposal, User Agent User Interface Independence, extension to javascript
17:27:25 <jeanne> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110922/#sc-532 <- 5.3.2 Implement Accessibility Features of platform:
17:27:30 <janina> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/365
17:27:38 <JAllan> ... verbosity settings, tab preferences, screen reader, etc
17:28:05 <JAllan> ... anyone reviewed, will it work?
17:28:11 <JAllan> all: silence
17:28:30 <jcraig> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html#identification
17:28:37 <cyns> cyns has joined #UA
17:28:57 <jcraig> window.navigator.accessibility.screenreader.active
17:29:05 <JAllan> jc: extensions to navigator object
17:30:17 <JAllan> jc: specific example...full keyboard access
17:30:50 <JAllan> ja: UAAG is high level, not technical
17:31:40 <JAllan> jeanne: opposed to AT settings for privacy. want the user to control what they see. so if want mobile version, can get it
17:32:04 <JAllan> cs: how to users feel about privacy issue...any data
17:32:45 <JAllan> jc: user would be prompted to provide information. Users like option of opting out.
17:33:42 <JAllan> kf: anecdotal evidence is total opposite...want to keep AT use private, majority in US
17:33:52 <richardschwerdtfe> q+
17:33:58 <JAllan> jc: his data is from working groups.
17:34:18 <JAllan> mh: in past have strong concerns about privacy
17:34:47 <JAllan> jc: UA setting for sharing information on AT use
17:34:56 <JAllan> kf: what is status of proposal
17:35:32 <JAllan> js: Judy and others about to charter group (Intentional Events)
17:36:29 <JAllan> jc: beginning of document explains the intention as abstract from physical action
17:37:40 <JAllan> rs: Access4All confirms kf  privacy concern. Not that they needed AT  but had preference for specific changes to content
17:37:56 <janina> q+
17:38:18 <richardschwerdtfe> ack richardschwerdtfe
17:38:22 <JAllan> jc: David Singer made a CSS proposal along similar veing
17:38:27 <JAllan> ack jcraig
17:38:27 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to discuss comment 78
17:39:25 <JAllan> rs: mac will know if user turns on voiceover, then UA will know and could communicate to author/content
17:40:24 <JAllan> kf: we have morphed to different area. RS ... UA should be aware of xyz OS accessibility and implement
17:40:27 <richardschwerdtfe> brb
17:40:43 <JAllan> kf: this is a new area.
17:41:23 <JAllan> kp: UAAG talks alot about keyboard control and clashes (settings and preferences), this may be useful
17:43:27 <JAllan> jeanne: what do we need to add to support ARIA in UAAG.
17:44:13 <JAllan> kf: UAWG can review proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html
17:44:28 <JAllan> ... and comment
17:44:37 <richardschwerdtfe> back
17:45:07 <JAllan> kf: are there other things we may be missing?
17:45:34 <JAllan> rs: as long as you map to a11y layer, should be ok
17:46:27 <JAllan> rs: keyboard access. on a mobile device may not have keyboard. what needs to be added
17:47:01 <JAllan> rs: needs to be something in UAAG about non-keyboard access.
17:47:28 <JAllan> jc: on whatever platform, the chrome and view must be accessible.
17:47:56 <JAllan> ... file bugs on given platforms, 
17:48:27 <JAllan> rs: example. webpage that is keyboard accessible, how does it make accessible via gesture
17:50:02 <JAllan> kf: level of detail in UAAG today, in the mobile scenario, allow the user to navigate to all navigable and focusable elements. would be a Success Criteria. then expand in the intent
17:50:47 <JAllan> ... any user can navigate and operate a webpage without a keyboard (using gesture0
17:51:19 <JAllan> jr: not only gesture, may be keypad (phone), voice based, etc.
17:51:47 <JAllan> rs: want to spec higher level events arrows (up, down, previous, next)
17:52:16 <JAllan> kf: this is totally needed, 
17:53:09 <JAllan> rs: need something that talks to the higher level functions (alternate input solutions) to generate events based on input method
17:53:38 <JAllan> kf: current UAAG, should we define this, or wait for the intent proposal to do it, 
17:53:51 <JAllan> ... we are concerned with end user functionality.
17:54:12 <JAllan> jc: agree...wait. let intent group spec these.
17:56:06 <JAllan> kf: actionable items...review UAAG for mobile, PF could review UAAG to see if anything is missing, new working draft with call outs for these discussed issues
17:56:23 <Jan> Jan has joined #ua
17:56:59 <JAllan> jc: comment 78, issue 365 on aria, commenter wants to override everything and it should work
17:57:44 <JAllan> ... slider could control style, and keyboard action and it still work
17:58:00 <Zakim> -Jan
17:58:25 <JAllan> ... html5 slider, author can control look and feel, uesr can override, it will work
17:58:39 <JAllan> ... but some aria control...it won't work
17:58:49 <JAllan> kf: out of scope of UAAG.
17:59:07 <JAllan> jc: UAAG should have overrides for CSS
17:59:29 <JAllan> kf: yes CSS and keyboard mapping
17:59:52 <JAllan> ... and keyboard controls.
18:00:07 <JAllan> ... more than that would be difficult if not impossible. 
18:00:37 <JAllan> kf: comment 78, point to UAAG, it should be covered
18:00:49 <JAllan> kf: are there other issues?
18:02:04 <JAllan> janina: concerned about device access, multiple sound cards (usb, etc), use one to dedicate for screen reader...does UA need to know what the OS is doing. 
18:02:30 <JAllan> ... some audio to headset, some to audio card x, others to y
18:02:48 <JAllan> kf: this sounds like an OS issue. 
18:03:25 <JAllan> ... on windows. Screen readers and magnifier allow multiple audio output. 
18:03:49 <mhakkinen> +q
18:04:05 <JAllan> janina: if screen reader is pointing to device 2, the UA should honor it.
18:04:47 <JAllan> jc: this is an OS issue. it should control where audio is going. MAC has this functionality.
18:05:35 <JAllan> js: voip, bigger issue, direct phone to one device, media to different device
18:06:33 <JAllan> kf: screen readers  are asking which device gets the sound (default and alternates . . speakers, headphones, etc)
18:07:03 <JAllan> ... UA could have a setting to say where to play audio. 
18:07:49 <JAllan> js: different streams to different devices is fine, but to restrict and block all other streams for each device
18:08:05 <JAllan> mh: GL 1.6 don't we do this already. 
18:08:07 <jcraig> s/MAC/Mac/
18:08:24 <JAllan> js: honor OS settings for volume?
18:08:34 <JAllan> kf: yes we have that
18:09:10 <JAllan> js: at some time it becomes an accessibility preference.
18:09:47 <JAllan> kf: some setting, never play x on device y. the UA should respect that. we cover that.
18:10:45 <JAllan> cs: which things should be covered by UA and which by AT. should be more on the AT. 
18:11:03 <JAllan> jc: are you asking for AT 
18:11:27 <JAllan> cs: want requirements for AT to be more standards compliant. 
18:11:36 <jcraig> q?
18:12:14 <jcraig> q+ to discuss that AT standardization could limit interface differentiation
18:12:23 <JAllan> rs: how to monitor that? AT merging on mobile
18:13:20 <JAllan> kf: UAAG has tried to separate AT. in some cases AT has done things that should be in base UA
18:14:13 <JAllan> ... authors need to have expectations that user will have an accessible experience
18:15:04 <mhakkinen> -q
18:15:31 <jcraig> ack jan
18:15:54 <jcraig> ack j
18:15:54 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to discuss that AT standardization could limit interface differentiation
18:15:59 <JAllan> js: where do we draw the line. eg. support for multilingual documents, parse document and preload languages for quick switching
18:17:25 <jcraig> acj c
18:17:34 <jcraig> ackc
18:17:44 <jcraig> ack C
18:17:56 <JAllan> jc: perhaps a list that AT should support. AT should support ARIA, canvas, etc. but stay away from user interface issues,  keyboard definitions
18:18:11 <jcraig> s/acj c//
18:18:21 <jcraig> s/ackc//
18:18:35 <JAllan> cs: go through UAAG, when user agent is mentioned determine UA or AT or combo.
18:19:02 <JAllan> kf: we have worked hard. UA mean UA not AT.
18:19:30 <JAllan> cs: can we user 'browser', UA is broad.
18:20:01 <JAllan> kf: working on comprehensive definition of UA (wcag, etc)
18:20:39 <JAllan> jeanne: for previous drafts, we eliminated AT from UAAG, but have gotten some push back due to defs
18:21:01 <jcraig> q?
18:22:54 <JAllan> kf: discussion of language switching
18:23:15 <JAllan> jc: works in IOS, can override lang tag
18:23:50 <JAllan> kf: works in windows (auto lang switching)
18:24:09 <JAllan> janina: switching an issue in Orca
18:24:20 <jcraig> s/works in IOS, can override lang tag/auto-switches voice by @lang on iOS, but user can override that voice if the web page specifies the language incorrectly/
18:24:30 <richardschwerdtfe> I have to drop folks
18:24:31 <richardschwerdtfe> over time
18:24:47 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
18:24:50 <JAllan> cs: what does AT do.
18:24:56 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has left #ua
18:25:29 <JAllan> kf: it is not UAAG job to tell AT what to do. That should be a different document.
18:25:35 <jcraig> q?
18:26:06 <JAllan> js: lang is part of html, what should AT do  to support it properly? what is properly?
18:27:38 <Zakim> -Mark
18:27:40 <Zakim> -[Apple]
18:27:41 <Zakim> -Cynthia
18:27:44 <Zakim> -AlexQiangChen
18:27:45 <Zakim> -Janina
18:27:46 <Zakim> -Kim_Patch
18:27:48 <janina> janina has left #ua
18:27:51 <jeanne> zakim, who is here?
18:27:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see kford, Jeanne, Jim_Allan
18:27:52 <JAllan> rrsagent: make minutes
18:27:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:27:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see jcraig, mhakkinen, KimPatch, jeanne, AlexQiangChen, JAllan, Zakim, RRSAgent, kford, trackbot
18:28:04 <mhakkinen> mhakkinen has left #ua
18:34:37 <JAllan> rrsagent, set logs public
18:41:11 <JAllan> zakim, please part
18:41:11 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were kford, Jim_Allan, Janina, AlexQiangChen, Jeanne, Jan, Kim_Patch, +1.609.734.aabb, Mark, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, jcraig, Cynthia
18:41:11 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
18:42:17 <jcraig> jcraig has left #ua
18:42:27 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:42:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:44:50 <JAllan> rrsagent, please part
18:44:50 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-ua-actions.rdf :
18:44:50 <RRSAgent> ACTION: kford ensure UAAG has a current list of expected operating system accessibility conventions, e.g. high contrast. [1]
18:44:50 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-ua-irc#T17-27-05