IRC log of tagmem on 2011-10-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:00:21 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
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logging to
17:00:38 [Zakim]
17:00:59 [Yves]
trackbot, start telcon
17:01:01 [noah]
noah has joined #tagmem
17:01:01 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:01:03 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be TAG
17:01:03 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started
17:01:04 [trackbot]
Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference
17:01:04 [trackbot]
Date: 06 October 2011
17:01:14 [Zakim]
17:01:19 [Zakim]
17:01:22 [Zakim]
17:01:27 [Yves]
Scribe: Yves
17:01:31 [noah]
zakim, noah_mendelsohn is me
17:01:32 [Zakim]
+noah; got it
17:02:55 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
17:02:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Masinter, DKA, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, JeniT, noah, Yves
17:02:57 [Zakim]
On IRC I see noah, RRSAgent, Zakim, Ashok, JeniT, jar, DKA, Larry, timbl, plinss, trackbot, Yves
17:03:47 [Yves]
Regrest for next week: Jeni
17:04:02 [Yves]
next scribe: Larry
17:04:10 [Yves]
17:04:19 [Yves]
Topic: approval of minutes
17:04:23 [jar]
Corrections for Wednesday
17:04:23 [jar]
Topic need "y" ("discovery")
17:04:23 [jar]
Change "of" to "therefore"" after "proposition"
17:04:23 [jar]
"expect ion" should be "expectation"
17:04:24 [jar]
misspelling "prirotize"
17:04:44 [Yves]
approval of f2f minutes, last week we got some correction requests
17:05:10 [Larry]
i'm willing to let them go ;)
17:05:22 [jar]
one other: "will be out-competed" said by Harry Halpin, not me
17:06:09 [Yves]
RESOLUTION: minutes approved, subject to editorial changes (see above)
17:06:27 [JeniT]
17:06:28 [noah]
RESOLUTION: minutes of the Edinburgh 13-15 Sept F2F approved, subject to editorial changes (see above)
17:06:47 [Yves]
last week minutes: any comments?
17:06:59 [Yves]
Ashok: some typos but ok
17:07:31 [Yves]
RESOLUTION: minutes of last week telcon approved
17:07:57 [Yves]
Topic: TPAC
17:08:33 [DKA]
that's fine
17:08:39 [Yves]
TPAC is coming up, any preference for morning or afternoon for TAG meeting?
17:08:45 [Yves]
(monday and friday)
17:08:50 [Yves]
no preference, so up to the chair
17:09:18 [Ashok]
I will be at TPAC ... I was not on your list from last week
17:09:19 [Yves]
Note also that the HTML/XML TF is moving forward
17:10:21 [Yves]
Topic: TPAC Planning
17:11:06 [Yves]
Preparation for the upcoming TAG election. It will be discussed during TPAC
17:11:45 [Larry]
As long as Ian and Jeff are discussing waht they want th e TAG to do, I'm happy
17:11:56 [Yves]
Larry proposed that the dinner slot could lead to something more substantive, but it might be a busy time, so we might suggest a BoF
17:12:53 [noah]
YL: I did check with SPDY folks, on answer yet
17:13:57 [Yves]
=> due date bumped by one week
17:14:01 [noah]
ACTION-615 Due 2011-10-13
17:14:01 [trackbot]
ACTION-615 Check on possible meeting with SPDY folks on 31 Oct at TPAC due date now 2011-10-13
17:14:57 [noah]
DKA: Deep linking breakout is confirmed.
17:14:58 [Yves]
DKA: I expect that rigo will join us for the session on friday, will confirm as soon that I know
17:15:01 [jar]
17:15:20 [Yves]
noah: is the breakout confirmed or not yet?
17:15:23 [Yves]
DKA: yes
17:16:00 [jar]
q+ jar to volunteer cc attorney
17:16:11 [noah]
ack next
17:16:12 [Zakim]
jar, you wanted to volunteer cc attorney
17:16:49 [Yves]
jar: it might be possible that one cc attorney could be interested by this breakout session
17:17:02 [Larry]
we can invite experts? or schedule a break-out session ?
17:17:43 [Larry]
maybe we could propose breakouts on specific TAG topics, like copyright, early normalization
17:18:22 [DKA]
17:18:25 [Larry]
q+ to ask about proposing breakouts
17:18:36 [noah]
ack next
17:18:37 [Zakim]
Larry, you wanted to ask about proposing breakouts
17:19:26 [Yves]
Larry: I wonder about poposing breakouts on other topics, like on html, privacy etc... it this a way of engaging communities?
17:21:16 [Larry]
specifically about topics that the TAG has discussed, since we have something substantitve to start with
17:21:34 [Yves]
DKA: from the wiki page, it's an open space process, there are 28 slots then an lection process
17:22:12 [JeniT]
There are already a couple of breakout proposals on privacy already
17:23:17 [Yves]
DKA: proposal can be merged if they are similar. I don't think there will be more than the 28 available slots
17:23:20 [Larry]
well, "permanance", "versioning", things TAG has discussed and that TAG members there one or more of us could lead a discussion about
17:24:21 [Yves]
DKA: for deep linking, it might be better to invite people we want to talk with for a specific session, and keep the breakout to reach other people
17:25:17 [Yves]
Noah: if TAG members want to propose sessions... but don't overcommit by having conflicts between sessions
17:25:29 [Larry]
I'd especially want to look for things where community input might give us some direction on what we should do
17:25:52 [Larry]
hmm, like on MIME and the Web, MIME types, sniffing, etc.
17:27:24 [Yves]
Topic: Web Application Architecture: Javascript vs. REST APIs for
17:27:26 [Yves]
client-side resources
17:27:34 [noah]
17:29:20 [Zakim]
17:30:46 [noah]
"Does the TAG have any additional advice or suggestions on the WebIDL/Javascript versus HTTP/REST architectural approach,"
17:31:17 [Ashok]
17:31:51 [Yves]
there were discussions on js api being too biased for that or not
17:31:56 [noah]
"noted some potential issues, including lack of adequate support for publish-subscribe paradigm, issues related to caching, issues related to appropriate URI definition for local resources, and the potential cost of indirection [5]."
17:32:04 [Larry]
The main thing I'd look for is an architecture where the distinction between local and network resources is orthogonal to the interface for the data
17:32:11 [noah]
ack next
17:32:16 [Larry]
Ashok and I were talking about this for client storage vs. cching
17:32:52 [Yves]
Ashok: js will be lots faster than doing REST stuff in accessing the camera.
17:32:53 [Larry]
This is an interesting point for calendars, for example, where you might have a local calandar or a network calander
17:32:58 [Larry]
q+ to talk about what i typed
17:33:25 [Yves]
jar: they might use the slower approach if things are not provided natively by the js access (like security or privacy)
17:34:22 [jar]
q+ jar The TAG *already* did something about this - it published webarch.
17:34:33 [Larry]
it's really orthogonal
17:34:34 [noah]
ack next
17:34:35 [Zakim]
Larry, you wanted to talk about what i typed
17:34:37 [Yves]
noah: it depends on the kind of optimizations you want to do
17:35:22 [noah]
q+ to talk about URIs that work everywhere
17:35:32 [Yves]
larry: there are things like data storage, local or remote, cache etc... it was a good idea to have the interface independent of the fact that storage is local or remote
17:35:53 [noah]
ack next
17:35:53 [Yves]
you want the data interface to be the same, regardless of how the data is accessed (locally or not)
17:35:54 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to talk about URIs that work everywhere
17:36:12 [Larry]
there's a data interface and an administrative interface
17:36:13 [noah]
ack next
17:36:21 [Yves]
jar: the webarch doc already says that things should be identified by URIs
17:36:26 [Larry]
i think webarch isn't enough, it's not only "identify" it's "access in the same manner"
17:37:20 [Yves]
noah: it is one side of the trade off, on one hand we have identification, but there is also performance.
17:38:07 [Yves]
file://">file:// uris are different than http:// uris, as file:// is localhost, so there is a need to identify the local camera, but do I want to use a local URI or a global one?
17:38:32 [noah]
17:39:20 [Yves]
noah: do you want to propose to discuss with some people during TPAC?
17:39:32 [noah]
s/some people/the DAP working group/
17:43:07 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to contact Fred Hirsch to suggest joint TAG/DAP meeting at TPAC on REST vs. Javascript APIs
17:43:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-616 - Contact Fred Hirsch to suggest joint TAG/DAP meeting at TPAC on REST vs. Javascript APIs [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-10-13].
17:43:09 [noah]
17:43:10 [Larry]
i think we could invite Frederick to talk to us even not at TPAC?
17:45:02 [Yves]
Noah: the proposed response is to say that there might be indeed some arch question, and we should discuss at TPAC
17:45:13 [Yves]
17:46:30 [noah]
17:46:30 [trackbot]
ACTION-613 -- Daniel Appelquist to organize deep linking breakout at TPAC -- due 2011-10-06 -- OPEN
17:46:30 [trackbot]
17:46:44 [noah]
close ACTION-613
17:46:44 [trackbot]
ACTION-613 Organize deep linking breakout at TPAC closed
17:47:01 [noah]
17:47:01 [trackbot]
ACTION-593 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule discussion of JavaScript vs. REST Client APIs [self-assigned] -- due 2011-10-01 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:47:01 [trackbot]
17:47:06 [noah]
close ACTION-593
17:47:06 [trackbot]
ACTION-593 Schedule discussion of JavaScript vs. REST Client APIs [self-assigned] closed
17:47:17 [noah]
17:47:17 [trackbot]
ACTION-514 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft finding on API minimization -- due 2011-10-11 -- OPEN
17:47:17 [trackbot]
17:48:13 [Yves]
Topic: Fragment ID Semantics and MIME Types
17:48:14 [noah]
17:48:14 [trackbot]
ACTION-509 -- Jonathan Rees to communicate with RDFa WG regarding documenting the fragid / media type issue -- due 2011-09-15 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:48:14 [trackbot]
17:48:53 [noah]
Jonathan's email:
17:49:54 [Yves]
jar: Henry is the only one to have spoken on this, so we should work on it together
17:50:24 [jar]
I said "or Jeni", scribe didn't get it...
17:51:29 [Yves]
jar: not sure how urgent it is (wrt RDFa's LC comments)
17:51:39 [Yves]
but it would be a "nice to have"
17:52:33 [jar]
rdfa wants to advance the draft ASAP... but they have been saying that for several months... I think they are stalled on something else. so there is no specific deadline, just "please soon or else you won't be able to give input"
17:53:02 [JeniT]
this relates to the fragids and mime types draft which Henry and Peter are (I think) working on
17:53:31 [Yves]
Noah: do you prefer to go over email, or schedue telcon time when Henry is there?
17:53:34 [Yves]
jar: telcon
17:53:43 [Yves]
17:54:03 [Yves]
noah: let's plan that for next week
17:54:06 [Yves]
Topic: Privacy
17:55:14 [noah]
17:55:14 [trackbot]
ACTION-608 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule telcon discussion of TAG goals on privacy -- due 2011-10-04 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:55:14 [trackbot]
17:55:21 [noah]
That one came from F2F overflow
17:55:25 [noah]
17:55:25 [trackbot]
ACTION-583 -- Ashok Malhotra to (with help from Dan) organize TAG review of proposed W3C charter on tracking protection (privacy) Due 2011-07-26 -- due 2011-08-30 -- OPEN
17:55:25 [trackbot]
17:55:41 [noah]
17:55:41 [trackbot]
ACTION-566 -- Daniel Appelquist to contact Alissa Cooper, organize a future joint discussion on privacy with IAB. -- due 2011-07-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:55:41 [trackbot]
17:55:57 [noah]
close ACTION-608?
17:56:30 [Yves]
Ashok: the WG started, so let's close my action
17:56:34 [noah]
AM: Working group started, no need for charter review
17:56:34 [noah]
close ACTION-583
17:56:35 [trackbot]
ACTION-583 (with help from Dan) organize TAG review of proposed W3C charter on tracking protection (privacy) Due 2011-07-26 closed
17:56:35 [JeniT]
17:57:15 [noah]
ACTION-566 Due 2011-10-11
17:57:15 [trackbot]
ACTION-566 Contact Alissa Cooper, organize a future joint discussion on privacy with IAB. due date now 2011-10-11
17:57:31 [Ashok]
17:58:25 [Yves]
ashok: is there anything else we should be doing?
17:58:33 [noah]
ack next
18:00:59 [Ashok]
s/doing/doing in the privacy arena/
18:06:31 [noah]
topic: Pending review actions
18:06:32 [noah]
18:06:45 [Yves]
509, just discussed
18:07:25 [noah]
18:07:25 [trackbot]
ACTION-521 -- Noah Mendelsohn to figure out where we stand with on the rec track -- due 2011-08-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:07:25 [trackbot]
18:07:52 [Yves]
long ago, the TAG worked on the following document:
18:07:55 [Yves]
18:08:07 [Yves]
short document, ending with good practice
18:09:02 [jar]
no brainer
18:09:12 [Yves]
to summarize, if a ns is defined about some animals, is it ok to add new ones several years later?
18:09:21 [Yves]
should you provision for that in the first spec?
18:10:25 [noah]
18:10:27 [Yves]
Note that this is already a finding
18:11:09 [Yves]
if we say it's a only finding, we should close the rec track doc (by publishing a Note?)
18:11:28 [Yves]
the question is "so should it be a full REC or not?"
18:12:14 [Yves]
jar: did that finding had any effect on namespaces that has been defined since then?
18:12:32 [Larry]
this isn't in scope for this discussion, but i wonder about this recommendation having any meaning. You can say wahtever policy you want for the future, but how does that prevent a new rec from overriding an old one anyway?
18:12:55 [Yves]
noah: not that I recall
18:13:28 [Yves]
Yves: not in the spec I tracked
18:13:44 [Yves]
jar: so is publishing this document as a REC will change this?
18:14:54 [JeniT]
webarch already has the good practice "An XML format specification SHOULD include information about change policies for XML namespaces."
18:15:06 [jar]
"Specifications that define namespaces SHOULD explicitly state their policy with respect to changes in the names defined in that namespace."
18:17:06 [Larry]
I think this is in the space of extensibility policies
18:17:08 [plinss]
18:17:11 [Larry]
no rec
18:17:12 [JeniT]
no rec
18:17:13 [DKA]
no rec
18:17:15 [noah]
no rec
18:17:18 [Ashok]
no rec
18:17:24 [Yves]
no rec
18:18:13 [Larry]
i'd want to see something mroe generally on extensibility, rather than narrowly on XML namespaces
18:18:18 [Yves]
peter: REC has more weight than findings, so I'd like to see TAG publishing more RECs
18:18:47 [Larry]
I'm reacting to the "things W3C should stop doing" google+ thread which included XML
18:19:59 [noah]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: will be taken off the REC track. This does not settle the question of whether the TAG should put more emphasis on RECs in general.
18:20:26 [noah]
RESOLUTION: will be taken off the REC track. This does not settle the question of whether the TAG should put more emphasis on RECs in general.
18:21:05 [noah]
close ACTION-521
18:21:05 [trackbot]
ACTION-521 Figure out where we stand with on the rec track closed
18:21:28 [noah]
ACTION Noah to work with Yves to take off the Rec track Due 2011-11-15
18:21:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-617 - Work with Yves to take off the Rec track Due 2011-11-15 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-10-13].
18:21:44 [noah]
18:21:44 [trackbot]
ACTION-537 -- Daniel Appelquist to reach out to Web apps chair to solicit help on framing architecture (incluing terminology, good practice) relating to interaction -- due 2011-07-15 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:21:44 [trackbot]
18:26:47 [Yves]
(proposal to close it)
18:26:55 [JeniT]
I agree with Dan
18:27:27 [Yves]
the TAG is putting down work on interactions by closing this action
18:29:01 [noah]
close ACTION-537
18:29:02 [trackbot]
ACTION-537 Reach out to Web apps chair to solicit help on framing architecture (incluing terminology, good practice) relating to interaction closed
18:29:26 [Zakim]
18:29:27 [jar]
18:29:29 [Zakim]
18:29:29 [Yves]
Noah: note that we will have a call next week
18:29:30 [Zakim]
18:29:32 [Zakim]
18:29:33 [Zakim]
18:29:33 [Zakim]
18:29:34 [Yves]
18:29:34 [Zakim]
18:29:48 [Zakim]
18:29:50 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:29:51 [Zakim]
Attendees were Masinter, DKA, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, JeniT, noah, plinss
18:30:17 [noah]
Thank you for scribing Yves
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