17:00:21 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 17:00:21 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-tagmem-irc 17:00:38 +Ashok_Malhotra 17:00:59 trackbot, start telcon 17:01:01 noah has joined #tagmem 17:01:01 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:01:03 Zakim, this will be TAG 17:01:03 ok, trackbot, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started 17:01:04 Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference 17:01:04 Date: 06 October 2011 17:01:14 +??P12 17:01:19 +Noah_Mendelsohn 17:01:22 +Yves 17:01:27 Scribe: Yves 17:01:31 zakim, noah_mendelsohn is me 17:01:32 +noah; got it 17:02:55 zakim, who is here? 17:02:55 On the phone I see Masinter, DKA, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, JeniT, noah, Yves 17:02:57 On IRC I see noah, RRSAgent, Zakim, Ashok, JeniT, jar, DKA, Larry, timbl, plinss, trackbot, Yves 17:03:47 Regrest for next week: Jeni 17:04:02 next scribe: Larry 17:04:10 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Oct/0007.html 17:04:19 Topic: approval of minutes 17:04:23 Corrections for Wednesday 17:04:23 Topic need "y" ("discovery") 17:04:23 Change "of" to "therefore"" after "proposition" 17:04:23 "expect ion" should be "expectation" 17:04:24 misspelling "prirotize" 17:04:44 approval of f2f minutes, last week we got some correction requests 17:05:10 i'm willing to let them go ;) 17:05:22 one other: "will be out-competed" said by Harry Halpin, not me 17:06:09 RESOLUTION: minutes approved, subject to editorial changes (see above) 17:06:27 s/Regrest/Regrets/ 17:06:28 RESOLUTION: minutes of the Edinburgh 13-15 Sept F2F approved, subject to editorial changes (see above) 17:06:47 last week minutes: any comments? 17:06:59 Ashok: some typos but ok 17:07:31 RESOLUTION: minutes of last week telcon approved 17:07:57 Topic: TPAC 17:08:33 that's fine 17:08:39 TPAC is coming up, any preference for morning or afternoon for TAG meeting? 17:08:45 (monday and friday) 17:08:50 no preference, so up to the chair 17:09:18 I will be at TPAC ... I was not on your list from last week 17:09:19 Note also that the HTML/XML TF is moving forward 17:10:21 Topic: TPAC Planning 17:11:06 Preparation for the upcoming TAG election. It will be discussed during TPAC 17:11:45 As long as Ian and Jeff are discussing waht they want th e TAG to do, I'm happy 17:11:56 Larry proposed that the dinner slot could lead to something more substantive, but it might be a busy time, so we might suggest a BoF 17:12:53 YL: I did check with SPDY folks, on answer yet 17:13:57 => due date bumped by one week 17:14:01 ACTION-615 Due 2011-10-13 17:14:01 ACTION-615 Check on possible meeting with SPDY folks on 31 Oct at TPAC due date now 2011-10-13 17:14:57 DKA: Deep linking breakout is confirmed. 17:14:58 DKA: I expect that rigo will join us for the session on friday, will confirm as soon that I know 17:15:01 q? 17:15:20 noah: is the breakout confirmed or not yet? 17:15:23 DKA: yes 17:16:00 q+ jar to volunteer cc attorney 17:16:11 ack next 17:16:12 jar, you wanted to volunteer cc attorney 17:16:49 jar: it might be possible that one cc attorney could be interested by this breakout session 17:17:02 we can invite experts? or schedule a break-out session ? 17:17:43 maybe we could propose breakouts on specific TAG topics, like copyright, early normalization 17:18:22 http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/SessionIdeas#Publishing_and_Linking_on_the_Web 17:18:25 q+ to ask about proposing breakouts 17:18:36 ack next 17:18:37 Larry, you wanted to ask about proposing breakouts 17:19:26 Larry: I wonder about poposing breakouts on other topics, like on html, privacy etc... it this a way of engaging communities? 17:21:16 specifically about topics that the TAG has discussed, since we have something substantitve to start with 17:21:34 DKA: from the wiki page, it's an open space process, there are 28 slots then an lection process 17:22:12 There are already a couple of breakout proposals on privacy already 17:23:17 DKA: proposal can be merged if they are similar. I don't think there will be more than the 28 available slots 17:23:20 well, "permanance", "versioning", things TAG has discussed and that TAG members there one or more of us could lead a discussion about 17:24:21 DKA: for deep linking, it might be better to invite people we want to talk with for a specific session, and keep the breakout to reach other people 17:25:17 Noah: if TAG members want to propose sessions... but don't overcommit by having conflicts between sessions 17:25:29 I'd especially want to look for things where community input might give us some direction on what we should do 17:25:52 hmm, like on MIME and the Web, MIME types, sniffing, etc. 17:27:24 Topic: Web Application Architecture: Javascript vs. REST APIs for 17:27:26 client-side resources 17:27:34 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Sep/0002.html 17:29:20 +plinss 17:30:46 "Does the TAG have any additional advice or suggestions on the WebIDL/Javascript versus HTTP/REST architectural approach," 17:31:17 q+ 17:31:51 there were discussions on js api being too biased for that or not 17:31:56 "noted some potential issues, including lack of adequate support for publish-subscribe paradigm, issues related to caching, issues related to appropriate URI definition for local resources, and the potential cost of indirection [5]." 17:32:04 The main thing I'd look for is an architecture where the distinction between local and network resources is orthogonal to the interface for the data 17:32:11 ack next 17:32:16 Ashok and I were talking about this for client storage vs. cching 17:32:52 Ashok: js will be lots faster than doing REST stuff in accessing the camera. 17:32:53 This is an interesting point for calendars, for example, where you might have a local calandar or a network calander 17:32:58 q+ to talk about what i typed 17:33:25 jar: they might use the slower approach if things are not provided natively by the js access (like security or privacy) 17:34:22 q+ jar The TAG *already* did something about this - it published webarch. http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#pr-use-uris 17:34:33 it's really orthogonal 17:34:34 ack next 17:34:35 Larry, you wanted to talk about what i typed 17:34:37 noah: it depends on the kind of optimizations you want to do 17:35:22 q+ to talk about URIs that work everywhere 17:35:32 larry: there are things like data storage, local or remote, cache etc... it was a good idea to have the interface independent of the fact that storage is local or remote 17:35:53 ack next 17:35:53 you want the data interface to be the same, regardless of how the data is accessed (locally or not) 17:35:54 noah, you wanted to talk about URIs that work everywhere 17:36:12 there's a data interface and an administrative interface 17:36:13 ack next 17:36:21 jar: the webarch doc already says that things should be identified by URIs 17:36:26 i think webarch isn't enough, it's not only "identify" it's "access in the same manner" 17:37:20 noah: it is one side of the trade off, on one hand we have identification, but there is also performance. 17:38:07 file:// uris are different than http:// uris, as file:// is localhost, so there is a need to identify the local camera, but do I want to use a local URI or a global one? 17:38:32 q? 17:39:20 noah: do you want to propose to discuss with some people during TPAC? 17:39:32 s/some people/the DAP working group/ 17:43:07 ACTION: Noah to contact Fred Hirsch to suggest joint TAG/DAP meeting at TPAC on REST vs. Javascript APIs 17:43:08 Created ACTION-616 - Contact Fred Hirsch to suggest joint TAG/DAP meeting at TPAC on REST vs. Javascript APIs [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-10-13]. 17:43:09 q? 17:43:10 i think we could invite Frederick to talk to us even not at TPAC? 17:45:02 Noah: the proposed response is to say that there might be indeed some arch question, and we should discuss at TPAC 17:45:13 s/question/questions/ 17:46:30 ACTION-613? 17:46:30 ACTION-613 -- Daniel Appelquist to organize deep linking breakout at TPAC -- due 2011-10-06 -- OPEN 17:46:30 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/613 17:46:44 close ACTION-613 17:46:44 ACTION-613 Organize deep linking breakout at TPAC closed 17:47:01 ACTION-593? 17:47:01 ACTION-593 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule discussion of JavaScript vs. REST Client APIs [self-assigned] -- due 2011-10-01 -- PENDINGREVIEW 17:47:01 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/593 17:47:06 close ACTION-593 17:47:06 ACTION-593 Schedule discussion of JavaScript vs. REST Client APIs [self-assigned] closed 17:47:17 ACTION-514? 17:47:17 ACTION-514 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft finding on API minimization -- due 2011-10-11 -- OPEN 17:47:17 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/514 17:48:13 Topic: Fragment ID Semantics and MIME Types 17:48:14 ACTION-509? 17:48:14 ACTION-509 -- Jonathan Rees to communicate with RDFa WG regarding documenting the fragid / media type issue -- due 2011-09-15 -- PENDINGREVIEW 17:48:14 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/509 17:48:53 Jonathan's email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Sep/0014.html 17:49:54 jar: Henry is the only one to have spoken on this, so we should work on it together 17:50:24 I said "or Jeni", scribe didn't get it... 17:51:29 jar: not sure how urgent it is (wrt RDFa's LC comments) 17:51:39 but it would be a "nice to have" 17:52:33 rdfa wants to advance the draft ASAP... but they have been saying that for several months... I think they are stalled on something else. so there is no specific deadline, just "please soon or else you won't be able to give input" 17:53:02 this relates to the fragids and mime types draft which Henry and Peter are (I think) working on 17:53:31 Noah: do you prefer to go over email, or schedue telcon time when Henry is there? 17:53:34 jar: telcon 17:53:43 s/schedue/schedule 17:54:03 noah: let's plan that for next week 17:54:06 Topic: Privacy 17:55:14 ACTION-608? 17:55:14 ACTION-608 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule telcon discussion of TAG goals on privacy -- due 2011-10-04 -- PENDINGREVIEW 17:55:14 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/608 17:55:21 That one came from F2F overflow 17:55:25 ACTION-583? 17:55:25 ACTION-583 -- Ashok Malhotra to (with help from Dan) organize TAG review of proposed W3C charter on tracking protection (privacy) Due 2011-07-26 -- due 2011-08-30 -- OPEN 17:55:25 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/583 17:55:41 ACTION-566? 17:55:41 ACTION-566 -- Daniel Appelquist to contact Alissa Cooper, organize a future joint discussion on privacy with IAB. -- due 2011-07-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW 17:55:41 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/566 17:55:57 close ACTION-608? 17:56:30 Ashok: the WG started, so let's close my action 17:56:34 AM: Working group started, no need for charter review 17:56:34 close ACTION-583 17:56:35 ACTION-583 (with help from Dan) organize TAG review of proposed W3C charter on tracking protection (privacy) Due 2011-07-26 closed 17:56:35 http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/charter.html 17:57:15 ACTION-566 Due 2011-10-11 17:57:15 ACTION-566 Contact Alissa Cooper, organize a future joint discussion on privacy with IAB. due date now 2011-10-11 17:57:31 q+ 17:58:25 ashok: is there anything else we should be doing? 17:58:33 ack next 18:00:59 s/doing/doing in the privacy arena/ 18:06:31 topic: Pending review actions 18:06:32 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview 18:06:45 509, just discussed 18:07:25 ACTION-521? 18:07:25 ACTION-521 -- Noah Mendelsohn to figure out where we stand with http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-namespaceState-20060329/ on the rec track -- due 2011-08-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:07:25 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/521 18:07:52 long ago, the TAG worked on the following document: 18:07:55 http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-namespaceState-20060329/ 18:08:07 short document, ending with good practice 18:09:02 no brainer 18:09:12 to summarize, if a ns is defined about some animals, is it ok to add new ones several years later? 18:09:21 should you provision for that in the first spec? 18:10:25 Finding: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/namespaceState.html 18:10:27 Note that this is already a finding 18:11:09 if we say it's a only finding, we should close the rec track doc (by publishing a Note?) 18:11:28 the question is "so should it be a full REC or not?" 18:12:14 jar: did that finding had any effect on namespaces that has been defined since then? 18:12:32 this isn't in scope for this discussion, but i wonder about this recommendation having any meaning. You can say wahtever policy you want for the future, but how does that prevent a new rec from overriding an old one anyway? 18:12:55 noah: not that I recall 18:13:28 Yves: not in the spec I tracked 18:13:44 jar: so is publishing this document as a REC will change this? 18:14:54 webarch already has the good practice "An XML format specification SHOULD include information about change policies for XML namespaces." http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#pr-doc-ns-policy 18:15:06 "Specifications that define namespaces SHOULD explicitly state their policy with respect to changes in the names defined in that namespace." 18:17:06 I think this is in the space of extensibility policies 18:17:08 rec 18:17:11 no rec 18:17:12 no rec 18:17:13 no rec 18:17:15 no rec 18:17:18 no rec 18:17:24 no rec 18:18:13 i'd want to see something mroe generally on extensibility, rather than narrowly on XML namespaces 18:18:18 peter: REC has more weight than findings, so I'd like to see TAG publishing more RECs 18:18:47 I'm reacting to the "things W3C should stop doing" google+ thread which included XML 18:19:59 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-namespaceState-20060329/ will be taken off the REC track. This does not settle the question of whether the TAG should put more emphasis on RECs in general. 18:20:26 RESOLUTION: http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-namespaceState-20060329/ will be taken off the REC track. This does not settle the question of whether the TAG should put more emphasis on RECs in general. 18:21:05 close ACTION-521 18:21:05 ACTION-521 Figure out where we stand with http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-namespaceState-20060329/ on the rec track closed 18:21:28 ACTION Noah to work with Yves to take http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-namespaceState-20060329/ off the Rec track Due 2011-11-15 18:21:28 Created ACTION-617 - Work with Yves to take http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-namespaceState-20060329/ off the Rec track Due 2011-11-15 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-10-13]. 18:21:44 ACTION-537? 18:21:44 ACTION-537 -- Daniel Appelquist to reach out to Web apps chair to solicit help on framing architecture (incluing terminology, good practice) relating to interaction -- due 2011-07-15 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:21:44 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/537 18:26:47 (proposal to close it) 18:26:55 I agree with Dan 18:27:27 the TAG is putting down work on interactions by closing this action 18:29:01 close ACTION-537 18:29:02 ACTION-537 Reach out to Web apps chair to solicit help on framing architecture (incluing terminology, good practice) relating to interaction closed 18:29:26 -noah 18:29:27 bye 18:29:29 -DKA 18:29:29 Noah: note that we will have a call next week 18:29:30 -JeniT 18:29:32 -Masinter 18:29:33 -Ashok_Malhotra 18:29:33 -Yves 18:29:34 ADJOURNED 18:29:34 -Jonathan_Rees 18:29:48 -plinss 18:29:50 TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended 18:29:51 Attendees were Masinter, DKA, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, JeniT, noah, plinss 18:30:17 Thank you for scribing Yves 19:00:55 timbl has joined #tagmem 20:01:11 jar has joined #tagmem 20:18:33 Zakim has left #tagmem 21:10:16 jar has joined #tagmem 21:35:23 timbl has joined #tagmem