19:59:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #text
19:59:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-irc
19:59:25 <Judy> chair: judy
19:59:41 <LeonieWatson> LeonieWatson has joined #text
20:01:35 <Judy> Zakim, this is WAI_PF(Text)
20:01:35 <Zakim> ok, Judy; that matches WAI_PF(Text)4:00PM
20:02:03 <Judy> zakim, who's here?
20:02:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Judy, ??P1, John_Foliot
20:02:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see LeonieWatson, RRSAgent, Zakim, Judy
20:02:20 <Judy> zakim, ??P1 is Janina
20:02:20 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
20:03:33 <Zakim> +??P3
20:04:03 <Judy> zakim, ??P3 is Leonie
20:04:03 <Zakim> +Leonie; got it
20:06:46 <LeonieWatson> scribe: LeonieWatson
20:06:55 <LeonieWatson> zakim, next item
20:06:55 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
20:07:38 <LeonieWatson> Topic: Longdesc
20:08:10 <Judy> agenda+ longdesc: JF-response to Jonas; JS-response to Matt's updated proposal.
20:08:10 <Judy> agenda+ table summary: expanding use cases <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ReinstateTableSummary>
20:08:10 <Judy> agenda+ generated content:  update on new discussion sub-group <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13668>
20:08:10 <Judy> agenda+ bug 8645, alt text for images <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8645>
20:08:11 <Judy> agenda+ other business? 
20:08:13 <Judy> agenda+ confirm next meeting; identify next scribe; adjourn.
20:08:20 <Judy> zakim, take up agendum 1
20:08:20 <Zakim> agendum 1. "longdesc: JF-response to Jonas; JS-response to Matt's updated proposal." taken up [from Judy]
20:08:31 <LeonieWatson> JB: zakim, take up agendum 1
20:09:05 <Judy> zakim, who's here?
20:09:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Judy, Janina, John_Foliot, Leonie
20:09:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see LeonieWatson, RRSAgent, Zakim, Judy
20:10:16 <LeonieWatson> JB: John will send his response to Jonas tonight. Next, Janina and John need to co-ordinate to talke through a response to Matt, which Janina will write?
20:10:21 <LeonieWatson> JF: Yes.
20:11:21 <LeonieWatson> JB: If you guys could get going tomorrow that would be helpful.
20:12:08 <LeonieWatson> JF: Let's do 11.30 tomorrow?
20:12:23 <LeonieWatson> JS: Yes. Could throw in some media stuff as well.
20:12:45 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
20:12:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:13:24 <LeonieWatson> zakim, next item
20:13:24 <Zakim> agendum 2. "table summary: expanding use cases <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ReinstateTableSummary>" taken up [from Judy]
20:13:33 <Judy> agenda?
20:14:34 <Judy> agenda+ meeting time
20:14:52 <LeonieWatson> JB: Issue is that we had a prepared response from Josh, feedback from Laura including two questions.
20:15:22 <LeonieWatson> JB: Janina was going to review, and Lynne was going to look at the use cases.
20:16:01 <LeonieWatson> JS: Yes, was going to compare against the chair's response.
20:16:10 <LeonieWatson> JB: What's your timeline?
20:16:26 <LeonieWatson> JS: Can do it for Tuesday, not sure about Monday.
20:16:42 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
20:16:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:17:36 <LeonieWatson> JB: Wonder if there is a way to review this with Josh before then? Otherwise could run up against TPAC.
20:17:48 <LeonieWatson> JS: Perhaps TPAC would give us a good opportunity to look at this?
20:18:23 <LeonieWatson> JB: I think it would be a mistake not to move forward with things before then. 
20:19:01 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
20:19:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:19:49 <LeonieWatson> JS: The review needs a little care to make sure it addresses all the arguments from the chairs.
20:20:57 <LeonieWatson> zakim, next item
20:20:57 <Zakim> agendum 3. "generated content:  update on new discussion sub-group <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13668>" taken up [from Judy]
20:21:55 <LeonieWatson> JF: This may not be an issue. Need to look into it.
20:22:42 <LeonieWatson> JF: Really would like to talk to Steve and Tab about this.
20:22:46 <Judy> [john, janina, leonie, sub-team discussion on generated content]
20:23:29 <Judy> agenda+ meta name generator, returning from TF 
20:24:05 <LeonieWatson> JB: What's the time frame for that conversation?
20:24:28 <LeonieWatson> JF: It's been busy here, difficult to say.
20:24:45 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
20:24:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:25:51 <LeonieWatson> JF: My instinct says there's something we need to look into here, but I'd like to be sure.
20:26:34 <LeonieWatson> JF: Example is a background image added through scripting to identify a file format type in a link. To me, that's important information. 
20:26:52 <LeonieWatson> JF: I believe that could be a problem, but I'm not sure.
20:27:02 <LeonieWatson> JS: It's something PF has discussed before.
20:27:21 <LeonieWatson> JF: Tab says generated content should be exposed to the DOM and available to ATs.
20:28:10 <LeonieWatson> JF: That's ok, but let's look at another use case. A form with required fields. There are programmatic techniques such as ARIA, but a visual indicator is also needed. If the same CSS selectors were used, that information would not be acknowledged by ATs.
20:28:25 <LeonieWatson> JS: Would depend on the AT. You do need to know that a field is required.
20:29:05 <JF> JF has joined #text
20:29:56 <LeonieWatson> LW: We've experienced situations like this recently. Think the issue is worth exploring.
20:30:08 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
20:30:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:32:12 <LeonieWatson> JB: Sounds like focus will be after longdesc and the response to Matt, and after the media check John?
20:32:18 <LeonieWatson> JF: Yes.
20:32:59 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
20:32:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:34:06 <LeonieWatson> JB: You can kick this off in the next week John?
20:34:20 <LeonieWatson> JF: In the next couple of weeks. Think TPAC may be a good opportunity to talk.
20:34:28 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
20:34:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:34:32 <LeonieWatson> zakim, next item
20:34:32 <Zakim> agendum 4. "bug 8645, alt text for images <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8645>" taken up [from Judy]
20:35:40 <LeonieWatson> JB: This came up from the TF telecon last week.
20:38:40 <LeonieWatson> JF: Think we can close this by addressing each point.
20:38:47 <LeonieWatson> JF: Point 5 has been overtaken by other stuff.
20:38:59 <LeonieWatson> JF: Point 4 is addressed in Steve's document.
20:39:18 <LeonieWatson> JF: Point 3 is being dealt with.
20:40:02 <LeonieWatson> JF: With a little more time and research the rest of the points could also be addressed in similar ways.
20:41:14 <LeonieWatson> JS: Best way to close this is with pointers to the duplicates and other information.
20:41:23 <LeonieWatson> JF: Suggest push back to the bug triage team or ask someone else.
20:41:29 <LeonieWatson> JS: Suggest Laura perhaps?
20:42:43 <LeonieWatson> JS: Happy to contact Laura to ask.
20:42:49 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
20:42:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:43:15 <LeonieWatson> zakim, next item
20:43:15 <Zakim> agendum 5. "other business?" taken up [from Judy]
20:43:46 <Judy> agenda?
20:44:49 <LeonieWatson> zakim, take up item 8
20:44:49 <Zakim> agendum 8. "meta name generator, returning from TF" taken up [from Judy]
20:45:52 <LeonieWatson> JS: I didn't see any categorical statement that said it isn't cool to have an image without an alt.
20:46:07 <LeonieWatson> JS: Seems to me we might want to say that.
20:46:34 <LeonieWatson> JF: My understanding is that the metadata string in the header makes images without alt conforming. 
20:47:23 <LeonieWatson> JS: What I'm missing is the categorical statement that images must have alts.
20:48:08 <LeonieWatson> JS: Metadata enables a dodge of this. We shouldn't condone a dodge.
20:48:41 <LeonieWatson> JF: What's important is that images must have an alternative. How we provide that is a different thing.
20:49:14 <LeonieWatson> JF: We need to say that all images, unless otherwise specified for a good reason, must have alternative text descriptions.
20:49:27 <LeonieWatson> JS: I can go with that.
20:49:48 <LeonieWatson> JF: You're suggesting a single sentence or statement?
20:50:10 <LeonieWatson> JS: Yes. I'm nervous about not having this statement included.
20:50:25 <LeonieWatson> JS: otherwise this is a great response, it's all good.
20:50:43 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
20:50:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:50:50 <JF> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming
20:52:10 <LeonieWatson> JF: A summary would be a useful addition. It might also be a good place to include Janina's statement. Perhaps we could ask Steve to do this? The rest of the change request is very well drafted.
20:54:38 <LeonieWatson> JS: What's the best way to follow up on this?
20:54:50 <LeonieWatson> JS: I could take a look at the summary.
20:56:00 <LeonieWatson> JB: There are a few things: The summary, couple of sentences to introduce the rationale, and a review of the flow of some of the content.
20:56:39 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
20:56:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:56:59 <LeonieWatson> JS: I can take a run at this. My instinct is that it wouldn't take too long.
20:57:22 <LeonieWatson> JS: Not sure I agree with the negative effect. Anyone else?
20:58:14 <LeonieWatson> JF: I tend to agree. It's the Flikr use case. What to we do when someone uploads 200 pictures? We don't have an answer. I think Steve is saying that by insisting alt is provided, we're going to find a problem.
21:01:50 <LeonieWatson> JB: Think this is a minor negative effect, and that should be stated. Metadata generator shouldn't be a get out clause though.
21:03:56 <LeonieWatson> JB: Propose that Janina offers her thoughts on the negative impact and let's bring it back to the reading attention of this group as well.
21:04:33 <LeonieWatson> JB: I think we should look at the conformance class change section.
21:04:41 <LeonieWatson> JF: Rich might be the best person to look at this?
21:04:54 <LeonieWatson> JB: Couldn't one of us articulate it?
21:05:26 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
21:05:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
21:05:29 <Judy> agenda?
21:05:47 <LeonieWatson> zakim, take up item 5
21:05:47 <Zakim> agendum 5. "other business?" taken up [from Judy]
21:06:04 <LeonieWatson> zakim, close item 8
21:06:04 <Zakim> agendum 8, meta name generator, returning from TF, closed
21:06:05 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:06:06 <Zakim> 5. other business? [from Judy]
21:06:18 <LeonieWatson> zakim, take up item 7
21:06:19 <Zakim> agendum 7. "meeting time" taken up [from Judy]
21:06:36 <LeonieWatson> JB: We had feedback from attendees that this time might work.
21:07:13 <LeonieWatson> JB: Joshu, Laura and others have said this time would be difficult.
21:08:26 <Judy> judy welcomes feedback from others not here today about this time-slot, in case we need to change off of mondays
21:10:13 <LeonieWatson> JF: Any chance of pushing it later on a Tuesday?
21:10:27 <LeonieWatson> JB: That would be tricky for UK folks.
21:10:51 <Judy> s/UK/UK and CET/
21:10:58 <LeonieWatson> JF: What about 2pm Boston (7pm GMT) or 11am my time?
21:11:49 <LeonieWatson> JB: Will wait for feedback from others. Next week I think we'll keep it at this time.
21:12:01 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
21:12:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
21:13:03 <Zakim> -Leonie
21:13:39 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
21:14:03 <JF> zakim, bye
21:14:03 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Judy, John_Foliot, Janina, Leonie
21:14:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #text
21:14:15 <JF> rrsagent, make logs public
21:14:25 <JF> rrsagent, make minutes
21:14:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html JF
21:14:41 <JF> rrsagent, please part
21:14:41 <RRSAgent> I see no action items