14:56:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rd
14:56:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/29-rd-irc
14:56:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:56:09 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rd
14:56:11 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7394
14:56:11 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_RDWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:13 <trackbot> Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference
14:56:15 <trackbot> Date: 29 September 2011
14:57:17 <sharper> Chair: Harper_Simon
14:57:17 <sharper> Agenda+ Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments)
14:57:17 <sharper> Agenda+ Finalise Paper Selection Criteria - http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Paper_Selection_Criteria
14:57:18 <sharper> Agenda+ Initiate Webinar Logistics Discussion
14:57:18 <sharper> Agenda+ Any Other Business 
14:57:45 <sharper> rrsagent, make logs public
14:57:45 <sharper> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:57:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/29-rd-minutes.html sharper
14:57:58 <sharper> regrets+ Thiessen_Peter
14:58:09 <christos> christos has joined #rd
14:58:10 <sharper> regrets+ O'Connor_Joshue
14:58:20 <sharper> present+ Harper_Simon
14:58:32 <sharper> present+ Abou-Zahra_Shadi
14:58:42 <Zakim> WAI_RDWG()11:00AM has now started
14:58:50 <Zakim> + +43.702.468.aaaa
14:59:02 <sharper> rrsagent, make logs public
14:59:03 <sharper> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:59:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/29-rd-minutes.html sharper
14:59:14 <sharper> zakim, take up item 1
14:59:14 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments)" taken up [from sharper]
14:59:26 <Zakim> +??P30
14:59:41 <christos> ??P30 is me
14:59:56 <christos> zakim, ??PP30 is me
14:59:56 <Zakim> sorry, christos, I do not recognize a party named '??PP30'
15:00:50 <christos> Zakim, ??P30 is me
15:00:50 <Zakim> +christos; got it
15:00:53 <Zakim> +??P34
15:00:58 <christos> mute me
15:01:06 <markel> markel has joined #rd
15:01:55 <Zakim> +??P52
15:02:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:02:20 <shadi> zakim, ipcaller is me
15:02:24 <Zakim> +shadi; got it
15:02:34 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see +43.702.468.aaaa, christos, ??P34, ??P52, shadi
15:02:40 <sharper> zakim, ??P34 is sharper
15:02:43 <Zakim> +sharper; got it
15:02:58 <sharper> zakim, ??P52 is markel
15:03:01 <Zakim> +markel; got it
15:03:12 <shadi> zakim, aaaa is Klaus
15:03:13 <Zakim> +Klaus; got it
15:03:32 <vivienne> vivienne has joined #rd
15:04:12 <Zakim> +??P55
15:04:23 <vivienne> zakim, p55 is vivienne
15:04:30 <Zakim> sorry, vivienne, I do not recognize a party named 'p55'
15:04:37 <vivienne> zakim, ??p55 is vivenne
15:04:50 <Zakim> +vivenne; got it
15:05:10 <giorgio> giorgio has joined #rd
15:05:26 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:05:27 <giorgio> Hi there. Sorry for being late.
15:05:32 <Zakim> sorry, vivienne, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:05:39 <giorgio> Today I'm also with no audio devices.
15:06:23 <christos> zakim, mute me
15:06:23 <Zakim> christos should now be muted
15:06:36 <vivienne> zakim, ??p55 is Vivienne
15:06:36 <Zakim> I already had ??P55 as vivenne, vivienne
15:07:07 <vivienne> I can if no one else wants to
15:07:18 <shadi> scribe: shadi
15:07:21 <shadi> agenda?
15:07:32 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:07:35 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments)" taken up [from sharper]
15:07:44 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 2
15:07:44 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Finalise Paper Selection Criteria - http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Paper_Selection_Criteria" taken up [from sharper]
15:08:23 <markel> I didn't give any input
15:09:33 <shadi> suggest we look at giorgio's comments (inline)
15:09:59 <vivienne> markel will be in sunny Australia next time
15:10:05 <shadi> SH: can move this agenda item to next time when Giorgio and Yeliz are here
15:10:22 <markel> q+
15:10:24 <vivienne> I'm happy to wait
15:10:25 <shadi> ...want to move to next week or try today?
15:10:34 <shadi> ack m
15:10:34 <sharper> ack
15:10:49 <Zakim> +??P26
15:10:53 <shadi> MV: think it is excellent, just have a minor comment
15:11:02 <shadi> ...maybe better to wait for Giorgio
15:11:27 <shadi> [Giorgio joins]
15:11:30 <shadi> zakim, ??p26 is giorgio
15:11:30 <Zakim> +giorgio; got it
15:11:45 <shadi> MV: excellent job, Giorgio
15:11:58 <shadi> ...Yeliz and Shadi raised the issue of impact
15:12:12 <shadi> ...talked about what the research community in the past
15:12:22 <shadi> ...may not be considered as "novel"
15:12:30 <shadi> ...seems contradictory
15:12:40 <shadi> ...want new stuff but also about past work
15:13:15 <shadi> GB: up to us how to define "novelty"
15:13:21 <shadi> ...but also happy to drop it
15:13:42 <shadi> MV: novel paper also welcome
15:13:49 <shadi> ...might need to prioritize
15:13:58 <shadi> ...and balance between types of papers
15:14:24 <shadi> ...as long as they are sound and valid
15:14:47 <shadi> q+
15:15:19 <shadi> GB: agree with you but uneasy to write in vey specific terms what the criteria are and which are more important
15:15:36 <shadi> ...that said, novelty may be less important than soundness
15:15:49 <shadi> ...happy to decide that now if wanted
15:15:50 <markel> thanks Giorgio
15:15:54 <sharper> ack
15:16:01 <sharper> q+
15:16:08 <sharper> ack shadi
15:16:15 <markel> +1 shadi
15:16:20 <shadi> SAZ: agree with Giorgio
15:16:35 <shadi> ...for me relevance to the symposium topic would be most useful
15:16:49 <shadi> SH: impact may be independent of novelty
15:17:10 <shadi> ...need impact but not necessarily novelty
15:17:37 <shadi> ...can have something very sound and very correct but won't have very much impact
15:17:39 <shadi> +1
15:17:49 <markel> +1
15:17:49 <giorgio> agree with simon: impact more important than novelty
15:18:13 <markel> yes
15:18:16 <giorgio> perfectly good.
15:18:21 <christos> ok
15:18:22 <shadi> SH: can take a pass if that's ok?
15:18:26 <shadi> [agreement]
15:18:27 <vivienne> +1
15:19:08 <shadi> SH: may need to stay flexible
15:19:21 <shadi> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-rd/2011Sep/0043.html
15:19:32 <sharper> ack me
15:20:27 <shadi> [SH reads comment #1 from email]
15:20:43 <shadi> [[If the paper is mainly theoretical, it should be judged on the insightfulness of its ideas and the rigor of its arguments. If it is mainly empirical, it should be judged on the validity of its results and the appropriateness of its techniques. If it is mainly a methodology paper, it should be judged on the usefulness of its proposed methodology. If it is a design paper, it should be judged on the quality, novelty, and appropriateness of its solution to a proble
15:20:43 <shadi> m; the rationale for the design decisions; the implementation; and the assessment of its success and weaknesses.]]
15:21:04 <markel> i'm reading
15:21:06 <giorgio> I'm trying to find shadi's comments
15:21:19 <giorgio> ok. got it now
15:21:26 <sharper> # section "Generic instructions for reviewers"
15:21:26 <sharper>   - the first bullet uses a mix of terms defined as criteria and other 
15:21:27 <sharper> that are not defined -- we need to review how we are using the terms and 
15:21:27 <sharper> what ramifications this may have (for instance it may indicate 
15:21:27 <sharper> prioritizing certain criteria for certain types of papers)
15:21:39 <giorgio> q+
15:21:47 <sharper> ack giorgio
15:21:49 <shadi> ack g
15:22:25 <shadi> GB: don't you think that trying to achieve a high-level description is useful?
15:22:29 <shadi> q+
15:22:29 <markel> it seems that Shadi's comments go in line with the previous issue about prioritazing
15:22:49 <shadi> ...maybe not necessary for these short contributions
15:23:44 <giorgio> q+
15:23:44 <shadi> SAZ: think overall guidance is important
15:24:04 <shadi> ...just editorially may be confusing to use some terms that are and are not defined later on
15:24:09 <shadi> ...need to be consistent
15:24:13 <shadi> ack g
15:24:19 <shadi> ack me
15:24:42 <shadi> GB: happy for anybody to adjust the wording if editorial
15:24:53 <shadi> ...want to avoid spending too much time in advance
15:24:54 <shadi> q+
15:25:47 <giorgio> q+
15:26:17 <shadi> SAZ: need to know how the approach was intended to be, to clean-up editorially
15:26:20 <sharper> ack s
15:26:24 <sharper> ack g
15:26:38 <shadi> ...but also need to balance between quick&dirty and spending too much time on theory
15:26:47 <vivienne> will the reviewers have a form based on this criteria to make it easier for them?
15:26:54 <shadi> ...this page sets the fundaments for the review process
15:27:10 <shadi> GB: agree but don't think we should over-shoot
15:27:25 <shadi> ...should use reviews from the process to improve it
15:27:29 <shadi> q+
15:27:38 <sharper> ack s
15:28:26 <markel> q+
15:28:58 <giorgio> ok
15:29:03 <shadi> SAZ: do not disagree that need to avoid over-shooting
15:29:09 <sharper> ack m
15:29:10 <shadi> ...but need to be responsible
15:29:30 <shadi> ...we also picked a very sensitive and delicate topic
15:29:52 <shadi> MV: don't know a review process that is much more editorial
15:30:24 <shadi> s/editorial/regorous
15:30:39 <shadi> ...need to be careful not to spend too much time
15:31:34 <shadi> SH: agree with all
15:31:46 <shadi> ...happy for SAZ to improve the section
15:32:03 <giorgio> yes
15:32:04 <vivienne> okay
15:32:05 <shadi> ...will also take a pass
15:32:07 <christos> yes
15:32:09 <shadi> ...sound ok?
15:32:10 <markel> i'm fine with that
15:32:47 <shadi> [SH reads comment #2 from SAZ email]
15:33:13 <shadi> SH: think we mean editorially
15:33:17 <giorgio> fine
15:33:49 <shadi> ...ok for SAZ change this or do we need discussion?
15:34:00 <vivienne> fine with Shadi changing
15:34:07 <sharper> +1
15:34:10 <markel> ok, shadi changing
15:34:45 <shadi> regrets: Mario, Joshue, Yeliz, Peter
15:35:00 <shadi> SH: want to be open and flexible
15:35:07 <shadi> ...can make choices on the fly as needed
15:35:13 <shadi> zakim, take up next
15:35:13 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments)" taken up [from sharper]
15:35:19 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 3
15:35:19 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Initiate Webinar Logistics Discussion" taken up [from sharper]
15:35:59 <shadi> SH: initiate discussion
15:36:10 <shadi> ...are we going to allow more discussion
15:37:34 <shadi> ...how was that done in the past?
15:37:45 <shadi> SAZ: can do it differently for each topic, as needed
15:38:02 <markel> no more than 2 hours I would say
15:38:27 <shadi> ...talked about having 5-10 minutes for each presenter
15:38:39 <shadi> ...then a panel session chaired by the symposium chairs
15:38:47 <shadi> ...then an open Q&A
15:38:51 <vivienne> Does it work like a conference call?
15:39:20 <shadi> SH: how much time do we spend?
15:39:28 <giorgio> we could set up a wiki page outlining our decisions on logistics
15:39:36 <shadi> SAZ: typically 2-3 hours with break but will depend on what comes in
15:39:58 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 4
15:39:58 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Any Other Business" taken up [from sharper]
15:40:06 <markel> yes Giorgio +1. We can collect all the ideas about the weminar an put in a wiki page
15:40:14 <shadi> SH: we are in kind of a looping mode right now
15:40:20 <shadi> ...what do want to do?
15:40:24 <giorgio> q+
15:40:28 <markel> we've talked about this over the past meetings
15:40:29 <shadi> ...in the next meetings
15:40:30 <shadi> q+
15:40:48 <shadi> ack g
15:41:15 <shadi> GB: can start agreeing on some of the concepts among ourselves
15:42:03 <sharper> ack s
15:42:17 <markel> q+
15:42:30 <shadi> s/can start agreeing on some of the concepts among ourselves/can start thinking of some of the topics
15:42:34 <shadi> ...work out some ideas
15:42:35 <sharper> GB: Thinking and formulating some of the questions and topics the chairs could raise on the panel
15:43:24 <shadi> SAZ: also the wiki needs lots of love
15:43:35 <shadi> ...needs to think of new topics and also populate them
15:43:49 <shadi> ...even if outside our comfort zone and direct field of work
15:43:55 <shadi> q+
15:44:13 <shadi> SH: will populate the wiki with topics on touch interfaces
15:44:20 <shadi> q+ to talk about Eval TF
15:44:23 <markel> q-
15:44:38 <shadi> ...should we also start initiating the next topic?
15:44:47 <vivienne> yes, it would be good to start looking at the next one
15:44:56 <shadi> ...stack them
15:45:12 <shadi> ack me
15:45:12 <Zakim> shadi, you wanted to talk about Eval TF
15:45:23 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2011/eval/eval-tf
15:46:54 <shadi> SAZ: Eval TF developing methodology for evaluating conformance of websites to WCAG2
15:48:01 <vivienne> me too
15:48:11 <shadi> ...very related to this first topic
15:48:18 <shadi> ...they are developing requirements
15:48:29 <shadi> ...also looking at existing resources
15:48:34 <markel> q+
15:48:36 <shadi> ...need exchange between both groups
15:48:47 <shadi> ack m
15:49:05 <shadi> MV: agree with GB to prepare generic questions for the panel
15:49:07 <shadi> +1
15:49:42 <giorgio> me too
15:49:48 <shadi> MV: agree with SH not to get locked down into evaluation too much
15:49:58 <shadi> ...and look at other topics too
15:50:01 <shadi> +1
15:50:38 <shadi> SH: can see that we may get locked down
15:50:44 <shadi> ...many interesting topics
15:50:53 <shadi> ...such as digital TV and more
15:51:09 <giorgio> thank you all. 
15:51:23 <vivienne> bye for now
15:51:24 <giorgio> bye
15:51:28 <sharper> bye
15:51:30 <christos> goodbye
15:51:31 <markel> markel has left #rd
15:51:31 <Zakim> -Klaus
15:51:33 <vivienne> vivienne has left #rd
15:51:33 <Zakim> -shadi
15:51:33 <Zakim> -giorgio
15:51:49 <Zakim> -vivenne
15:51:54 <Zakim> -christos
15:52:02 <shadi> zakim, list attendees
15:52:02 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +43.702.468.aaaa, christos, shadi, sharper, markel, Klaus, vivenne, giorgio
15:52:13 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
15:52:18 <shadi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:52:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/29-rd-minutes.html shadi
15:52:19 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
15:52:29 <shadi> RRSAgent, bye
15:52:29 <RRSAgent> I see no action items