14:39:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:39:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/29-prov-irc
14:39:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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14:39:20 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
14:39:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:39:21 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:39:21 <trackbot> Date: 29 September 2011
14:39:26 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 
14:39:26 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 21 minutes
14:39:39 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.29
14:39:48 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:39:58 <Luc> Scribe: Yogesh Simmhan
14:40:36 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 
14:41:48 <Vinh> Vinh has joined #prov
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14:56:06 <Yogesh> Yogesh has joined #prov
14:56:12 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:56:17 <Zakim> +Vinh
14:56:20 <ericstephan> ericstephan has joined #prov
14:56:26 <Zakim> +Yogesh
14:56:27 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov
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14:57:19 <Luc> Hi Yogesh, everything setup for you
14:57:27 <Yogesh> Thanks Luc
14:57:42 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes
14:57:55 <Zakim> +??P11
14:58:16 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aaaa
14:58:28 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P11 is me
14:58:28 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
14:58:30 <Luc> zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me
14:58:30 <Zakim> +Luc; got it
14:58:39 <dgarijo> Hi everyone
14:58:58 <Zakim> + +1.509.967.aabb
15:00:01 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov
15:00:19 <Zakim> +??P8
15:01:09 <Zakim> +??P4
15:01:48 <satya> satya has joined #prov
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15:02:07 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aacc
15:02:24 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov
15:02:35 <Yogesh> Luc: admin issues, release of 1st public working draft, hearing from eric about connection task force report, Simon give primer, and satya formal doc
15:02:36 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
15:02:47 <Yogesh> Luc: any other issues? No.
15:02:49 <Luc> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of Sep 22 telecon
15:02:58 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo
15:02:59 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-09-22
15:03:04 <satya> +1
15:03:07 <GK> GK has joined #prov
15:03:09 <Yogesh> +1
15:03:10 <ericstephan> +1
15:03:11 <Curt> +1
15:03:12 <dgarijo> +q
15:03:14 <dgarijo> -q
15:03:15 <tlebo> +1
15:03:16 <dgarijo> +1
15:03:23 <StephenCresswell> +1
15:03:32 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
15:03:44 <Luc> ACCEPTED: minutes of Sep 22 telecon
15:03:53 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open
15:04:16 <Zakim> +??P46
15:04:16 <Yogesh> Luc: action assigned to satya on doing named graph e.g.
15:04:28 <GK> zakin, ??P46 is me
15:04:35 <Yogesh> satya: paolo closed it last week. 
15:04:49 <pgroth> i think that action was closed
15:04:53 <Luc> TOPIC: First Public Working Drafts
15:05:22 <Yogesh> luc: data model doc to be released this week as FPWD
15:05:28 <Luc> q?
15:05:30 <satya> q+
15:05:35 <Yogesh> luc: feedback from participants and is it ok to release?
15:05:54 <Zakim> +??P10
15:05:56 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:05:59 <Yogesh> satya: has been raising issues. Do we address issues and continue working on doc after its released?
15:06:08 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P10 is me
15:06:10 <GK> @Luc: I do *not* regard my comments today as blockers for release as FPWD
15:06:16 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it
15:06:30 <Yogesh> luc: first draft that is publicly released. Keep working on doc.  To decide if there is anything blocking release.
15:06:47 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov
15:06:57 <Yogesh> satya: is ok with releasing it.
15:07:21 <Yogesh> luc: keep adding comments so readers know it is a work in progress.
15:07:23 <Luc> q?
15:07:29 <Luc> ack satya
15:07:29 <Zakim> +??P15
15:07:36 <jcheney> zakim, ??P15 is me
15:07:36 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
15:07:39 <smiles> I take a similar position to Graham - none of my comments blockers
15:07:46 <Zakim> +Yolanda
15:08:17 <Yogesh> luc: need to vote formally on release. this is the first docs being released by group. Need to contact W3C director and point to the resolution.
15:08:25 <Luc> proposed: release the data model document as a FPWD
15:08:40 <sandro> +1 (W3C)
15:08:58 <ericstephan> +1 (PNNL)
15:08:58 <satya> +1 (IE)
15:08:59 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 (University of Manchester)
15:08:59 <smiles> +1 (IE)
15:09:00 <Yogesh> +1 (IE)
15:09:02 <pgroth> +1 (VUA)
15:09:02 <GK> +1 (Oxford U)
15:09:03 <Curt> +1 (NASA)
15:09:09 <jcheney> +1 (U Edinburgh)
15:09:16 <Paolo> Hi everybody I'm on IRC but not phone - call overlap
15:09:26 <Yogesh> sandro: please add affiliation in parantheses after +1. Invited experts to say IE
15:09:28 <dgarijo> +1
15:09:38 <sandro> Yolanda: +1 (IE)
15:09:42 <dgarijo> (UPM)
15:10:11 <dgarijo> yea, sorry about that :(
15:10:23 <Luc> ACCEPTED: release the data model document as a FPWD
15:10:41 <Zakim> +??P25
15:10:49 <pgroth> cool
15:10:56 <Yogesh> sandro: need to send email to a list of people about this. will send link.
15:11:15 <GK> q+, to say: need to use ReSpect features to generate the HTML
15:11:16 <Yogesh> sandro: editors need to check all links are good, valid CSS/html, etc.
15:11:20 <Luc> q?
15:11:53 <Yogesh> GK: need to use ReSpect features to generate the HTML. If so, output should be compliant (but not broken links)
15:12:00 <Luc> q?
15:12:27 <Yogesh> luc: editors of other two docs, whats the timetable?
15:12:51 <Yogesh> GK: Paul will make a call
15:12:56 <sandro> Here are the full publication rules for a First Public Working Draft: http://www.w3.org/2005/07/pubrules?year=2011&uimode=filter&filter=Filter+pubrules&filterValues=form&docstatus=fpwd-wd-tr&patpol=w3c&rectrack=yes&normative=yes&prevrec=none#docreqs
15:13:02 <GK> s/ReSpect/ReSpec/
15:13:11 <pgroth> i think we need some more time before the paq is ready
15:13:20 <pgroth> maybe 1 week or so 
15:13:28 <Yogesh> Luc: issue with entities that was postponed. has dustr settled?
15:13:56 <sandro> Luc, the steps for publication approval are: http://services.w3.org/xslt?xmlfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/01-transitions.html&xslfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/transitions.xsl&docstatus=fpwd-wd-tr
15:14:10 <Luc> Thanks Sandro
15:14:11 <Yogesh> GK: has enough info to draft the changes to entities. Will be away for 2 weeks after this week. Did not expect to do substantial work on it after this point.
15:14:34 <Yogesh> GK: the doc can go out without the extra drafting, but will defer to Paul's call
15:14:46 <Yogesh> luc: will talk 1:1 with Paul to understand issue.
15:15:06 <pgroth> thanks
15:15:37 <Yogesh> satya: formal model substantial work done , thanks to stian, khalid, daniel.
15:15:51 <Yogesh> satya: will have a call nect Monday, but will be able to release before that
15:16:02 <jorn> jorn has joined #prov
15:16:10 <Yogesh> satya: will send mail to luc, paul and sandro to see if its ready to release
15:16:16 <Yogesh> luc: decision has to be made by group
15:16:34 <Yogesh> luc: WG should have time to go through it before decision is made
15:16:45 <Luc> q?
15:16:47 <Yogesh> satya: wull send link to WG and we can vote on next week's call
15:16:48 <pgroth> q+ to ask whether we should go for 
15:17:00 <GK> @pgroth - I wanted to draft a section discussing contexts and Entities, and the that provenance assertions *could* be applicable to multiple Entities.  Setting this out would make it easier to address some of the issues about contexts and anchors.
15:17:12 <Luc> ack pgroth
15:17:12 <Zakim> pgroth, you wanted to ask whether we should go for
15:17:21 <Luc> paul, what did you want say?
15:17:28 <pgroth> I'm not on the phone, but just wanted to ask whether we should wait for the ontology before releasing the conceptual model
15:17:32 <Zakim> + +1.512.524.aadd
15:17:53 <khalidbelhajjame> I don't think we should wait 
15:17:57 <Luc> q?
15:18:03 <smiles> depends how long it takes to agree the formal model...
15:18:04 <dgarijo> me neither. The ontology has to be still tested
15:18:18 <GK> That's a good question:  AFAICT, developers (@stain?) are working from the ontology doc.
15:18:26 <ericstephan> don't wait
15:18:32 <Yogesh> luc: doesnt see a sense that we should wait
15:18:44 <pgroth> ok
15:18:50 <tlebo> comments on the conceptual model from the public will facilitate the OWL development.
15:19:09 <pgroth> seems like there is consensus to release on the irc
15:19:13 <Yogesh> GK: unclear about this. Stian has been doing prototyping based on ontology, not conceptual. There may be complementary info. But should not unecessarily hold things up.
15:19:30 <Yogesh> luc: stian was implementing in OWL to inform the OWL design
15:19:38 <Yogesh> luc: stian, do you have comments?
15:19:56 <Yogesh> who is here?
15:19:59 <Yogesh> zakim, who is here?
15:19:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Vinh, Yogesh, Curt_Tilmes, dgarijo, Luc, +1.509.967.aabb, ??P8, ??P4, +1.315.330.aacc, Satya_Sahoo, ??P46, khalidbelhajjame, Sandro, jcheney, Yolanda, ??P25,
15:20:03 <Zakim> ... +1.512.524.aadd
15:20:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see jorn, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, GK, tlebo, Paolo, StephenCresswell, satya, smiles, dgarijo, Curt, ericstephan, Yogesh, pgroth, Vinh, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, trackbot,
15:20:06 <Zakim> ... stain, sandro
15:20:36 <Yogesh> luc: will take a few days before it is released. there will be an announcement that other docs will follow. we can proceed wth conceptual model and OWL spec will be ready soon
15:20:42 <dgarijo> @GK: @stain used the ontology to test it, yes. But he made also based on the definitions of the conceptual model, to help us improve it :)
15:20:44 <Luc> Topic: Connection Task Force  
15:21:04 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report
15:21:21 <Yogesh> ericstephan: 1st F2F meeting had preliminary thoughts.
15:21:52 <Yogesh> ericstephan: several suggestions on other communities, standards bodies inside W3C and other special interest areas
15:22:31 <Yogesh> ...Agreed that will develop a report and provide connections. 
15:22:32 <Yogesh> ...Link is available online that shows the degrees of connections.
15:22:38 <Luc> q?
15:22:40 <Yogesh> ...Please thae a look and give feedback.
15:22:54 <Yogesh> s/thae/take/
15:23:21 <Yogesh> luc: Nice to see potential impact on other commnities. What was rationale?
15:23:56 <Yogesh> ericstephan: "Connectivity Approaches to Community " summarizes ratonale. 1 star means we know them, but they dont know us.
15:24:20 <Yogesh> ...4 stars means we know a name/person who writes a section for us.
15:24:23 <Luc> q?
15:24:23 <GK> q+ to ask if you are looking for additional help to build more definite links with lower star ratings; more generally, what are the specific actions you asosciate with different ratings?
15:24:28 <Luc> ack gk
15:24:28 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask if you are looking for additional help to build more definite links with lower star ratings; more generally, what are the specific actions you asosciate with
15:24:31 <Zakim> ... different ratings?
15:25:05 <Yogesh> GK: are you looking to strengthen the connections for low stars?
15:25:21 <smiles> q+
15:25:57 <Zakim> -??P25
15:26:11 <Yogesh> ericstephan: stars are access to community. Completed the report after F2F but this is living doc that will add connections and increase stars.
15:26:28 <Zakim> +??P25
15:26:32 <jorn> zakim, ??p25 is me
15:26:32 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:26:51 <Luc> q?
15:26:55 <Yogesh> Kai has been collaborating to get info
15:28:12 <Yogesh> eGovenment group has an interest in provenance. 
15:28:55 <Yogesh> stephen: have been on their conference call. They are interested in recommending an approach.
15:29:56 <Luc> ack smiles
15:30:05 <Zakim> -Yogesh
15:30:14 <Zakim> +Yogesh
15:31:50 <Luc> q?
15:32:13 <Zakim> +??P40
15:32:31 <Paolo> zakim, ??P40 is me
15:32:31 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it
15:32:39 <Yogesh> Yogesh has joined #prov
15:32:58 <Zakim> - +1.512.524.aadd
15:33:23 <Yogesh> sorry, my IRC has been giving problems
15:33:54 <Luc> q?
15:34:12 <Luc> Topic: primer
15:34:32 <Yogesh> Simon: put the skeleton together
15:34:37 <smiles> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/primer/Primer.html
15:34:53 <Yogesh> looking for comments. Yolanda will coedit the primer. Will be talking tomorrow.
15:35:11 <Yogesh> ...Yolanda suggested starting points for people from different perspectives.
15:35:36 <Yogesh> ...Others can volunteer next week to contribute to primer.
15:35:47 <Yogesh> ...Will set out well defined actvities for them.
15:36:05 <GK> @smiles: might want to copy overview diagram from the model doc?  I think it bears repeating :)
15:36:06 <Yogesh> ..Expect a primer by end of Oct as a draft for WG to consider.
15:36:12 <Luc> q?
15:36:16 <Yogesh> Luc: Will have primer agenda for next week.
15:36:39 <Yogesh> Simaon: May not be able to make it next week. Will check if Yolanda can make it. Will send email. 
15:36:39 <Luc> q?
15:36:50 <Yogesh> Yolanda: will be able to join next week.
15:36:56 <Luc> topic: formal model document
15:37:04 <satya> I guess the current structure of the Primer is initial version - so will comment later
15:37:59 <Yogesh> satya: had feedback. Luc raised an issue. satya has 2 sections to look into: extension section and formal semantics
15:38:23 <Yogesh> ...will send email on Monday for WG to review 
15:38:26 <Luc> q?
15:39:36 <Yogesh> satya: Will try to release a first version that may change based on feedback
15:40:13 <dgarijo> +q
15:40:30 <Yogesh> ...Discusssions on provenance container and entity and subclasses has led to changes. But cant provide a timeline for fixed ontology till a formal conceptual model is in place.
15:40:33 <Luc> ack d
15:40:34 <GK> q+ to ask if there's a criterion for deciding what subclasses to define
15:40:56 <Yogesh> Daniel: Converging to stablility. Testing usecases.
15:41:00 <Luc> ack gk
15:41:00 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask if there's a criterion for deciding what subclasses to define
15:41:55 <Zakim> -jorn
15:42:05 <Zakim> +??P25
15:42:21 <Luc> yogesh, are you still here?
15:42:32 <Yogesh> satya: agrees with GK. If we do not assert subclass of relationship, then we have limit entailments. Tradeoff. 
15:42:45 <Luc> q?
15:42:46 <Yogesh> ...We can keep all of them for now without asserting subclass of relationship.
15:43:40 <Yogesh> satya: Have been discussing the use of roles. Associating qualifiers wth relationships, or with Process executions was discussed.
15:44:32 <Yogesh> ...For now, agreed to use roles until there are clear cases highlighting its shortcomings.
15:44:54 <Yogesh> ...Similarly, time of process start and stop are assertions or qualifiers on the process entities, not relationships.
15:45:29 <Yogesh> luc: Someone mentioned usecases being built. Is there a catalog? All cant go into fomal doc but may be useful to test interop.
15:45:47 <Yogesh> sayta: Using crime scene scenario and the one stain has done.
15:45:51 <tlebo> +q
15:46:18 <Yogesh> Luc: Is there something even smaller? Entity between two process executions with roles
15:46:35 <Luc> q?
15:46:36 <tlebo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/ontology/components is collecting the individual OWL axioms and collects examples
15:46:40 <Luc> ack tl
15:46:43 <khalidbelhajjame> Stian has already encode the workflow provenance example.
15:46:43 <Yogesh> satya: Corolla car example would be useful
15:46:48 <khalidbelhajjame> It is in the mercurial
15:47:02 <Luc> q?
15:47:33 <Yogesh> Luc: can you put this link in the top level page?
15:47:37 <GK> I can see the readme
15:47:40 <Luc> q?
15:48:12 <Yogesh> Luc: postponed discussions on accounts? 
15:48:36 <Yogesh> satya: Still some discussion between account, provenance collections and containers.
15:48:50 <Yogesh> ...Can definitely model container right now. Are accounts distinct?
15:48:56 <Yogesh> Luc: Yes, in the conceptual model.
15:49:28 <Paolo> Accounts can be nested, for example
15:49:38 <dgarijo> I saw accounts as something more specific than a prov container.
15:49:43 <Yogesh> satya: can we rename container as something else?
15:50:03 <dgarijo> so a container could, for instance, contain several accounts
15:50:21 <Yogesh> Luc: named graphs are scoping construct for triples with metadata associated. But construct is not there is OWL.
15:50:26 <tlebo> named graphs can be described in OWL using http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql-service-description#
15:50:35 <khalidbelhajjame> I would suggest to keep them separate, while ProvenanceContainer is a (Random) bundle of assertions, accounts should be used when there is scoping. So, although structurally they are similar, semantically they are not.
15:50:43 <Yogesh> ...How can we express accounts without named graphs in OWL?
15:50:52 <Yogesh> satya: we'll need a class for that in OWL.
15:50:54 <dgarijo> @khalid: +1
15:51:11 <Yogesh> ...Containers are similar to scoping in named graphs.
15:51:34 <dgarijo> @khalid: but they are not disjoint. A container can be an account.
15:51:40 <GK> I think it will depend very much on how the RDF group introduce named graphs...
15:51:42 <Yogesh> ...Containers bundle assertions and we can associate metadata with the cotainers.
15:51:48 <khalidbelhajjame> @daniel, yes
15:51:56 <tlebo> q+
15:52:10 <Luc> q?
15:52:13 <Yogesh> Luc: How will container class be instantiated into named graphs in RDF?
15:52:15 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-service-description describes named graphs
15:52:18 <GK> ... is as literals, then they can appear ibn OWL datatype properties, but the embedded RDF semantics may be opaque
15:52:38 <tlebo> naming named graphs within a SPARQL endpoint (an approach): https://github.com/timrdf/csv2rdf4lod-automation/wiki/Naming-sparql-service-description%27s-sd%3ANamedGraph
15:52:46 <dgarijo> we can allways avoid usinog named graphs in owl: create class account and a relationship of containment to each of the other concepts.
15:53:00 <GK> ... if datasets (ala SPARQL) then I'm not sure how that would carry over.
15:53:29 <dgarijo> +q
15:53:32 <Luc> q?
15:53:33 <Yogesh> satya: no construct for provenance assertion in model. Should we model it in ontology?
15:53:40 <Luc> ack tl
15:54:01 <khalidbelhajjame> Ok, I see your point Satya. In that case, we can just explain that in the HTML document without adding explicit classes in the OWL ontology
15:54:03 <GK> Yes: "Provenance assertion" is an ASN construct; representation in RDF is just an RDF assertion, I think.
15:54:10 <Yogesh> tlebo: Variety of work is in draft, like sparql endpoint
15:54:21 <Yogesh> ...We can extend this vocabulary.
15:54:46 <Yogesh> Luc: will you have a proposal on accounts and containers by the time the doc is released as FPWD?
15:54:54 <satya> @Khalid, GK: +1
15:54:55 <Luc> q?
15:55:01 <Yogesh> tleb: Will have a first draft on it.
15:55:02 <Luc> ack dg
15:55:22 <tlebo> daniel: make prov:Account (don't use named graphs)
15:55:46 <Luc> q?
15:55:57 <Yogesh> Daniel: Named graphs are not yet standarized. Not helpful to reply on it.
15:56:06 <tlebo> sd:NamedGraph will need to be a subclass prov:Account - since accounts can be sitting elsewhere.
15:56:10 <tlebo> q+
15:56:52 <GK>  Ah... with named graphs, can use owl:import?
15:56:55 <satya> q+
15:57:00 <tlebo> q-
15:57:01 <Luc> ack tl
15:57:21 <Yogesh> satya: defers to ntology telecon, but what does sitting "elsewhere" mean?
15:57:33 <Zakim> -??P25
15:57:50 <Luc> q?
15:57:55 <Luc> ack saty
15:57:58 <tlebo> satya: can you capture your question?
15:58:57 <Yogesh> Luc: Will be good to see a proposal for named graphs and go to RDF group and ask if they can support this
15:59:08 <Luc> q?
15:59:28 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo
15:59:28 <Yogesh> list attendees
15:59:29 <Zakim> - +1.315.330.aacc
15:59:29 <Zakim> -Yolanda
15:59:30 <Zakim> -??P46
15:59:31 <Zakim> -dgarijo
15:59:32 <Zakim> -Paolo
15:59:32 <Zakim> - +1.509.967.aabb
15:59:33 <Zakim> -jcheney
15:59:40 <satya> Tm, What is the construct that we can use for set of provenance assertions other than named graphs
15:59:42 <Luc> yogesh, i ll do the necessary incantations from here
15:59:47 <Yogesh> thanks luc
15:59:49 <satya> s/Tm/tim
15:59:51 <Zakim> -Vinh
15:59:53 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes
15:59:55 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:59:56 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame
15:59:59 <Zakim> -??P8
16:00:00 <Zakim> -Luc
16:00:01 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public
16:00:07 <Luc> thanks for scribing, yogesh
16:00:14 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes 
16:00:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/29-prov-minutes.html Luc
16:00:14 <Yogesh> zakim, part
16:00:17 <Yogesh> Yogesh has left #prov
16:00:19 <Zakim> -??P4
16:00:25 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Vinh, Yogesh, Curt_Tilmes, dgarijo, Luc, +1.509.967.aabb, +1.315.330.aacc, Satya_Sahoo, Sandro, khalidbelhajjame, jcheney, Yolanda,
16:00:28 <Zakim> Zakim has left #prov
16:00:30 <Zakim> ... +1.512.524.aadd, jorn, Paolo
16:00:30 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon
16:00:46 <GK> GK has left #prov
16:03:33 <stain> uhm.. I'm in a wrong time zone :-((
16:03:42 <sandro> d'oh!      
16:03:44 <stain> that's what insurance company does to your head
16:03:53 <stain> I've spent the morning on the phone with them..
16:04:10 <stain> ok, I hope everyting was decided now then :)
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