15:53:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dnt
15:53:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/28-dnt-irc
15:54:13 <npdoty> Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group Weekly call 9/28
15:54:17 <npdoty> Chair: aleecia
15:54:27 <npdoty> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2011Sep/0121.html
15:54:39 <Zakim> +dsinger
15:54:45 <davidwainberg> davidwainberg has joined #dnt
15:55:07 <Zakim> + +1.510.859.aacc
15:55:17 <aleecia> noted, thanks
15:55:20 <hober> semi-regrets for today: I won't be on the call but will be here in IRC.
15:55:22 <npdoty> Zakim, aacc is npdoty
15:55:22 <Zakim> +npdoty; got it
15:55:28 <npdoty> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:55:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.202.872.aaaa, +1.609.981.aabb, dsinger (muted), npdoty
15:55:38 <aleecia> i'm having insane mouse issues; may not be able to type on IRC depending on how things go
15:56:08 <aleecia> zakim, aaaa is aleecia
15:56:08 <Zakim> +aleecia; got it
15:56:27 <tl> zakim aaabb is tl
15:56:31 <tl> zakim aabb is tl
15:56:41 <tl> zakim, aabb is tl
15:56:41 <Zakim> +tl; got it
15:57:15 <justin> justin has joined #dnt
15:57:15 <npdoty> rrsagent, make logs public
15:57:20 <Brett> Brett has joined #DNT
15:57:34 <dsinger_> zakim, who is here?
15:57:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see aleecia, tl, dsinger (muted), npdoty
15:57:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see Brett, justin, davidwainberg, RRSAgent, dsinger_, Zakim, tl, npdoty, aleecia, mischat, pde, trackbot, hober
15:58:23 <npdoty> Zakim, agenda+ Selection of scribe
15:58:26 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
15:58:41 <npdoty> Zakim, agenda+ Any comments on minutes?
15:58:44 <jmayer> jmayer has joined #dnt
15:58:57 <Zakim> + +1.202.684.aadd
15:59:05 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
15:59:11 <npdoty> Zakim, agenda+ Old business (editors, action items, merged issues)
15:59:33 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
15:59:50 <npdoty> Zakim, agenda+ Tracking Preference Expression Definitions and Compliance discussion of issues
15:59:51 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
16:00:07 <npdoty> Zakim, agenda+ Wrap-up
16:00:08 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
16:00:08 <alissa> alissa has joined #dnt
16:00:13 <jkaran> jkaran has joined #dnt
16:00:29 <npdoty> Zakim, agenda?
16:00:29 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:00:31 <Zakim> 1. Selection of scribe [from npdoty]
16:00:32 <Zakim> 2. Any comments on minutes? [from npdoty]
16:00:33 <Zakim> 3. Old business (editors, action items, merged issues) [from npdoty]
16:00:34 <Zakim> 4. Tracking Preference Expression Definitions and Compliance discussion of issues [from npdoty]
16:00:37 <Zakim> 5. Wrap-up [from npdoty]
16:01:05 <Zakim> + +1.212.231.aaee
16:01:18 <dsriedel> dsriedel has joined #dnt
16:01:30 <npdoty> Zakim, aadd is Jonathan
16:01:34 <Zakim> + +1.202.436.aaff
16:01:36 <davidwai_> davidwai_ has joined #dnt
16:01:39 <npdoty> Zakim, aaee is NogaRosenthal
16:01:40 <clp> clp has joined #dnt
16:01:46 <Zakim> +Jonathan; got it
16:01:50 <tl> time to get started?
16:01:52 <Zakim> + +49.721.913.74.aagg
16:01:53 <alissa> Zakim, +1.202.436.aaff is alissa
16:01:53 <Zakim> +NogaRosenthal; got it
16:01:53 <NogaR> NogaR has joined #dnt
16:02:02 <clp> The conference is full, I can't get into the audio, is it also on a non-telephone URL?
16:02:03 <dmckinney> dmckinney has joined #dnt
16:02:04 <Zakim> + +1.215.591.aahh
16:02:06 <BrianTs> BrianTs has joined #DNT
16:02:08 <Zakim> +alissa; got it
16:02:17 <efelten> efelten has joined #dnt
16:02:21 <dsinger_> zakim, who is here?
16:02:22 <Zakim> + +1.813.366.aaii
16:02:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see aleecia, tl, dsinger (muted), npdoty, Jonathan, NogaRosenthal, alissa, +49.721.913.74.aagg, +1.215.591.aahh, +1.813.366.aaii
16:02:26 <jkaran> I was able to dial in, but I don't hear anything.
16:02:33 <Zakim> + +1.813.907.aajj
16:02:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see efelten, BrianTs, dmckinney, NogaR, clp, davidwai_, dsriedel, jkaran, alissa, jmayer, Brett, justin, davidwainberg, RRSAgent, dsinger_, Zakim, tl, npdoty, aleecia,
16:02:42 <Zakim> ... mischat, pde, trackbot, hober
16:02:49 <clp> This is Charles L. Perkins, Virtual Rendezvous.
16:03:00 <Zakim> + +1.908.541.aakk
16:03:18 <clp> (unable to hear)
16:03:23 <enewland> enewland has joined #dnt
16:03:25 <Zakim> + +1.202.326.aall
16:03:27 <aleecia> scribe: tom
16:03:29 <Zakim> + +1.415.734.aamm
16:03:33 <npdoty> scribenick: tl
16:03:37 <npdoty> Zakim, next agendum
16:03:37 <efelten> Zakim, aall is efelten
16:03:38 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Selection of scribe" taken up [from npdoty]
16:03:39 <Zakim> +efelten; got it
16:03:44 <clay> clay has joined #dnt
16:03:44 <npdoty> Zakim, close agendum 1
16:03:44 <Zakim> agendum 1, Selection of scribe, closed
16:03:46 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:03:46 <Zakim> 2. Any comments on minutes? [from npdoty]
16:03:49 <npdoty> Zakim, next agendum
16:03:50 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Any comments on minutes?" taken up [from npdoty]
16:03:57 <tl> aleecia: reviewing minutes from boston
16:03:58 <KevinT> KevinT has joined #dnt
16:03:58 <npdoty> http://www.w3.org/2011/09/21-dnt-minutes.html
16:04:04 <tl> ...links sent out
16:04:05 <npdoty> http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-dnt-minutes.html
16:04:15 <dmckinney> Zakim, aahh is dmckinney
16:04:16 <Zakim> +dmckinney; got it
16:04:18 <tl> ...any comments?
16:04:30 <Zakim> + +49.157.884.8.aann
16:04:31 <jkaran> Sorry - how do you get the audio?
16:04:43 <Zakim> + +1.202.637.aaoo
16:04:50 <tl> ...no comments. minutes are approved.
16:04:54 <jkaran> The email had a different code.
16:05:06 <aleecia> q?
16:05:12 <tl> npdoty: if you have photos, please send them to nick
16:05:13 <npdoty> Please send me (npdoty@w3.org) any photos.
16:05:14 <enewland> zakim, aaoo is justin
16:05:16 <Zakim> +justin; got it
16:05:19 <Zakim> +??P39
16:05:23 <npdoty> Sorry about confusion over the code, I sent a correction via email.
16:05:29 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:05:33 <clp> (can hear audio now, had wrong code)
16:05:34 <Zakim> + +1.646.723.aapp
16:05:35 <tl> aleecia: announcing some editors
16:05:43 <Zakim> + +1.212.673.aaqq
16:05:54 <davidwai_> zakim, aapp is davidwainberg
16:05:54 <Zakim> +davidwainberg; got it
16:06:03 <npdoty> Zakim, aaoo is enewland
16:06:03 <Zakim> sorry, npdoty, I do not recognize a party named 'aaoo'
16:06:26 <tl> ... enewland editing compliance section
16:06:32 <Zakim> + +1.510.501.aarr
16:06:39 <tl> ... roy editing tracking preference expressions list
16:06:46 <Kimon> Kimon has joined #dnt
16:06:47 <Zakim> + +1.202.326.aass
16:06:51 <npdoty> s/enewland/Justin Brookman and Erica Newland/
16:06:55 <tl> ... techincal editor tba
16:07:09 <npdoty> s/roy/Roy Fielding, Adobe/
16:07:10 <tl> ... turn to pending action items
16:07:31 <npdoty> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/
16:07:41 <tl> ... please review the issues list online
16:07:45 <schunter> schunter has joined #dnt
16:07:52 <npdoty> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/open
16:07:58 <tl> ... aleecia has one overdue action
16:08:20 <tl> ... currently overdue on producing a summary contrasting several input documents
16:08:24 <PederMagee> PederMagee has joined #dnt
16:08:39 <efelten> Zakim, aass is PederMagee
16:08:39 <Zakim> +PederMagee; got it
16:08:40 <tl> ... could anyone volunteer to assist with that action over the next week
16:08:44 <enewland> zakim, justin also holds enewland
16:08:44 <Zakim> +enewland; got it
16:08:47 <clp> I can try to help you, Aleecia.
16:08:51 <tl> ... the rest is silence
16:09:11 <Lia> Lia has joined #dnt
16:09:24 <tl> ... clp volunteers to assist aleecia
16:09:29 <tl> ... more assistance always useful
16:09:34 <npdoty> Zakim, take up agendum 3
16:09:34 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Old business (editors, action items, merged issues)" taken up [from npdoty]
16:09:40 <tl> ... move on to look at some of the issues which have been merged and deduplicated
16:09:59 <Zakim> + +1.206.658.aatt
16:10:04 <tlr> tlr has joined #dnt
16:10:08 <npdoty> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues
16:10:08 <alex> alex has joined #dnt
16:10:24 <tl> ... there are some closed issues. if you have comments, enqueue yourself in irc.
16:10:37 <tl> ... issue 16,18 are pure entry error duplicates
16:10:53 <tl> ... four other duplicate pairs
16:10:57 <amyc> amyc has joined #dnt
16:11:10 <tl> ... 3,33 == about user choice & complexity
16:11:46 <tl> ... 7,11 == both documenting use cases
16:13:02 <jmayer> +q
16:13:58 <npdoty> ack jmayer
16:14:15 <npdoty> ISSUE-63?
16:14:15 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
16:14:31 <npdoty> ISSUE-27?
16:14:31 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
16:14:36 <tlr> trackbot, associate this channel with #tracking
16:14:36 <trackbot> Associating this channel with #tracking...
16:14:36 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
16:14:36 <trackbot> If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
16:14:48 <npdoty> trackbot, associate this channel with #tracking
16:14:48 <trackbot> Associating this channel with #tracking...
16:14:48 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
16:14:48 <trackbot> If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
16:14:57 <npdoty> ISSUE-63?
16:14:57 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
16:15:06 <tlr> trackbot, status?
16:15:11 <tlr> issue-63?
16:15:11 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
16:15:15 <tlr> issue-1?
16:15:15 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
16:16:02 <tl> tl has joined #dnt
16:16:05 <npdoty> ISSUE-63?
16:16:51 <tlr> zakim, code?
16:16:51 <Zakim> the conference code is 87225 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), tlr
16:17:06 <tl> jonathan: 34,23: want to note difference between subcontractor exemption and analytics exemption
16:17:10 <Zakim> + +1.415.920.aauu
16:17:16 <npdoty> trackbot?
16:17:26 <npdoty> ISSUE-23?
16:17:30 <tl> aleecia: yes, but one could be removed without the other
16:17:33 <aleecia> q?
16:17:44 <Lia> Lia has joined #dnt
16:18:11 <tl> aleecia: renaming issues 19, 37
16:18:15 <tl> q+
16:18:51 <dsinger_> Wants to know how you would like discussion of the issues handled. In email, on a wiki, or…?
16:18:55 <dsriedel_> dsriedel_ has joined #dnt
16:19:25 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
16:19:32 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
16:19:39 <Zakim> + +1.703.438.aavv
16:19:54 <tl> tl: can we be automatically notified to issue changes?
16:20:02 <tl> aleecia: unknown
16:20:07 <Zakim> + +3249434aaww
16:20:37 <tl> npdoty: can do atom feeds. we don't want emails, because that's tiresome.
16:21:00 <tl> q-
16:21:24 <tl> aleecia: prefer to discuss, rather than notify, at least to start
16:21:36 <npdoty> Zakim, next agendum
16:21:36 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Any comments on minutes?" taken up [from npdoty]
16:21:40 <tl> aleecia: new business
16:21:45 <npdoty> Zakim, close agendum 2
16:21:45 <Zakim> agendum 2, Any comments on minutes?, closed
16:21:45 <tl> ... base cases!
16:21:46 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:21:48 <Zakim> 4. Tracking Preference Expression Definitions and Compliance discussion of issues [from npdoty]
16:21:53 <npdoty> Zakim, next agendum
16:21:53 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Tracking Preference Expression Definitions and Compliance discussion of issues" taken up [from npdoty]
16:22:09 <tl> ... #1 when you know you're a third party, and you know you're serving targeted ads
16:22:18 <tl> ... #2 when you know you're a first party
16:22:25 <tl> ... the two extremes
16:22:39 <tl> ... nb issues 19 & 17
16:22:52 <tl> q+
16:22:52 <RichardcomScore> RichardcomScore has joined #dnt
16:22:56 <aleecia> q?
16:23:18 <jmayer> +q
16:23:19 <Ian> Ian has joined #dnt
16:23:30 <Ian> trackbot, associate this channel with #dnt
16:23:30 <trackbot> Associating this channel with #dnt...
16:23:35 <clp> clp has joined #dnt
16:23:46 <Ian> trackbot, start meeting
16:23:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:23:50 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
16:23:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:23:51 <trackbot> Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group Teleconference
16:23:51 <trackbot> Date: 28 September 2011
16:23:53 <pde> q+
16:23:54 <dsinger_> Nothing that COULD be associated with a single user may be recorded
16:23:55 <jkaran> q+
16:23:58 <dsinger_> ?
16:24:01 <aleecia> q?
16:24:06 <aleecia> ack tl
16:24:09 <Ian> zakim, list
16:24:09 <Zakim> I see Team_(NGCRC)12:00PM, Team_(dnt)16:00Z, WAI_PF()12:00PM, Style_CSS FP()12:00PM, VB_VBWG(SCXML)12:00PM active
16:24:11 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are SW_RDFWG()11:00AM, WAI_Team(WAIT)10:30AM, XML_EXI()12:30PM, Team_(wf)15:00Z, XML_XMLCore()11:30AM, T&S_EGOV(UseWebTech)12:00PM
16:24:12 <Ian> zakim, this is dnt
16:24:12 <Zakim> Ian, this was already Team_(dnt)16:00Z
16:24:13 <Zakim> ok, Ian; that matches Team_(dnt)16:00Z
16:24:18 <tl> tl: propose: case #1 do not record any information about dnt user, except for minimized security & performance logs not used for any other purpose
16:24:44 <schunter> +q
16:25:01 <tl> jonathan: question: is the 3p making behavioral advertising use of information, a 3p only doing behavioral ads, or any 3p
16:25:24 <tl> aleecia: just a 3p doing only behavioral ads
16:25:43 <npdoty> ISSUE-19?
16:25:43 <trackbot> ISSUE-19 -- Data collection / Data use (3rd party) -- raised
16:25:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/19
16:25:44 <schunter> Matthias: I would rephrase the question as ¨what (technical) means should a 3rd party instantiate in order to ensure that it satisfies the desire of a user not to be tracked¨.
16:25:54 <schunter> q-
16:25:54 <Ian> Ian has left #dnt
16:25:57 <tl> jmayer: i think we can all agree that data cannot be used
16:26:12 <aleecia> q?
16:26:31 <jmayer> My underlying concern here: there's no company that does *just* behavioral advertising use of data.
16:26:43 <jkaran> Yes
16:26:55 <davidwai_> +q
16:27:05 <tl> aleecia: repeat: proposal: data cannot be used to target ads when dnt is on
16:27:09 <npdoty> ACTION: Jonathan to clarify distinctions on "opt back in" between ISSUE-27 and ISSUE-63
16:27:09 <aleecia> ack jmayer
16:27:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-7 - Clarify distinctions on "opt back in" between ISSUE-27 and ISSUE-63 [on Jonathan Mayer - due 2011-10-05].
16:27:14 <aleecia> q?
16:27:29 <tl> jkaran: agree kinda, but we already have self-reg using cookies
16:27:39 <tl> q+
16:27:47 <tl> ... then check to look at cookies
16:27:49 <npdoty> ACTION-7 due 9-30
16:27:49 <trackbot> ACTION-7 Clarify distinctions on "opt back in" between ISSUE-27 and ISSUE-63 due date now 9-30
16:28:02 <tl> ... and possibly see if user is opted in
16:28:14 <tl> aleecia: are there actually any opt in cookies?
16:28:28 <tl> jkaran: no, only opt-out cookies
16:28:58 <jmayer> For the moment we're discussing whether Do Not Track does at least as much as opt-out cookies; does that require figuring out how to reconcile DNT and opt-out cookies?
16:29:05 <schunter> If a cookie is opt-out only, then expressing a prefernce not to be tracked via cookie OR DNT should stop tracking.
16:29:05 <tl> ... my opinion: either dnt or cookie is sufficient
16:29:07 <schunter> +q
16:29:22 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:29:29 <aleecia> ack davidwai_
16:29:30 <Zakim> -dsinger
16:29:39 <npdoty> I think we're discussing ISSUE-56 and ISSUE-58 now
16:29:52 <tl> david w: the us does not include opt-in. some companies may use opt in. companies might implement opt-in by deleting an opt-out cookie
16:29:55 <schunter> Only potential conflict is opt-out cookie + DNT expression that tracking is OK (from my perspective).
16:29:57 <Zakim> -alissa
16:30:01 <schunter> -schunter
16:30:17 <tl> aleecia: sounds like we're talking about future-proofing against affirmitive opt-in
16:30:32 <npdoty> ack schunter
16:30:37 <jkaran> q-
16:30:38 <npdoty> ISSUE-27?
16:30:38 <trackbot> ISSUE-27 -- Mechanism to revoke Do Not Track for specific entities (maybe I really like Google), "opt back in" -- raised
16:30:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/27
16:30:51 <tl> pde: let's talk about opt-back-in later, on that issue
16:30:53 <tl> q-
16:30:58 <aleecia> q?
16:31:02 <kcs> kcs has joined #dnt
16:31:03 <tl> aleecia: so let it be done!
16:31:17 <aleecia> ack pde
16:31:20 <dsinger_> dsinger_ has joined #dnt
16:31:48 <amyc> q+
16:31:50 <dsinger_> Zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:31:50 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
16:31:54 <jmayer> This doesn't sound like it falls within OBA use of data.
16:32:18 <schunter> Can you post the final phrasing in IRC?
16:32:20 <tl> pde: largely agree with tom: 3p must stop retaining data. also not link to another issue: scope of security/ fraud data. that sec/fraud &c data must be protected from misuse. let's talk about that excep later.
16:32:41 <tl> aleecia: can talk about both use and collection. let's start first by agreeing on use.
16:32:50 <pde> s/not link/link/
16:32:59 <aleecia> q?
16:33:03 <dsinger_> q+
16:33:07 <aleecia> ack amyc
16:33:17 <davidwai_> q+
16:33:27 <tl> ... so, to begin: assert: 3p should not use any ob data aforeobtained to serve an ad
16:33:41 <npdoty> '3rd party that receives a DNT header, modulo some exemptions and opt-back-in options, should not use any behavioral data to target an ad'  -- was that the language we're discussing?
16:34:05 <clp> Yes
16:34:17 <tl> amy@ms: there may need to be ad tracking exemptions, some add may need to be served
16:34:19 <Zakim> + +1.571.309.aaxx
16:34:43 <tl> aleecia: exemptions later. does anyone disagree with the basic principle
16:34:44 <npdoty> s/amy@ms/amyc/
16:34:48 <efelten> Not sure what is on the table now.  Is it "no use for OBA, other uses to be discussed later" or "no use for OBA, other uses are allowed"?
16:34:55 <aleecia> ack dsinger_
16:35:01 <jmayer> efelten, the former
16:35:05 <pde> amyc: do you think that ad delivery needs exemptions beyond the exemption for anonymized, statistical reporting, and the exemption for clickfraud?
16:35:10 <aleecia> q?
16:35:20 <jmayer> efelten, and "collection to be discussed later"
16:35:37 <tl> david singer: important to separate the data already collected from data to be collected now.
16:35:42 <jmayer> The question on the table is, in essence, "Does Do Not Track do at least as much as current self-regulation?"
16:35:43 <npdoty> ack dsinger_
16:35:43 <jmayer> +q
16:36:03 <tl> ... i think it would be unacceptable to collect but not use, let's talk about that
16:36:04 <tl> aleecia: yes, later
16:36:26 <aleecia> q?
16:36:32 <tl> ... so are we saying that you can't use data from (current transaction|all time)
16:36:34 <jmayer> -q
16:36:34 <amyc> q+
16:36:38 <pde> q+
16:36:53 <tl> ... does anyone disagree with a prohibition on using all historical data
16:36:54 <aleecia> ack davidwai_
16:37:09 <jmayer> Historical data for OBA purposes
16:37:16 <tl> david: do we mean any historical data, any historical *oba* data...?
16:37:58 <jmayer> everything!
16:38:01 <tl> aleecia: if you are a 3p, seeing dnt, does it it merely mean that you cannot use this session's data, or all history data... to serve ads
16:38:05 <tl> q+
16:38:07 <jmayer> +q
16:38:10 <pde> it's /tracking/ data
16:38:15 <pde> anything that is linkable
16:38:21 <jmayer> any data about an individual user
16:38:33 <tl> ... oba data, or any data?
16:38:57 <tl> ... should it mean no use of ob data for ob ads, or anything else?
16:39:04 <tl> aleecia: yes
16:39:24 <tl> s/... oba data/david: oba data
16:39:36 <aleecia> q?
16:39:49 <tl> david: sounds like industry opt out
16:39:49 <tl> aleecia: yes. starting here
16:39:58 <jmayer> unsure what "OBA data" means
16:39:59 <tl> ... potentially moving further later
16:40:11 <dsriedel> dsriedel has joined #dnt
16:40:12 <jmayer> industry self-regulatory language is absurdly slippery, would want some clarification there
16:40:14 <aleecia> ack amyc
16:40:38 <aleecia> ack pde
16:41:08 <tl> pde: further: re: past records. but first, should verify consensus on first point
16:41:30 <tl> aleecia: does anyone disagree with the current point?
16:41:43 <tl> ... no disagreement
16:42:12 <npdoty> agreed: a third party receiving a do not track signal should not use the current data from the current interaction to serve a targeted ad
16:42:24 <amyc> q+
16:42:25 <tl> ... CONSENSUS: a 3p receiving the dnt signal must not use data from the current transaction to serve a targeted ad
16:42:35 <tl> pde: retaining data is the crux of ads
16:42:41 <jmayer> what is this "current transaction" thing?
16:42:58 <jmayer> because i'm totally cool with contextual and demographic advertising
16:43:00 <amyc> what about use of IP address?
16:43:14 <tl> ... if you see a dnt header, you should cease retaining data for other transactions.
16:43:23 <tl> aleecia: will deal with that later
16:43:56 <tl> ... so: is ip address information in question
16:43:57 <pde> q+
16:44:09 <tl> pde: obvs, you need to use ip in order to send
16:44:13 <amyc> qustion is about geo target of IP address for current ad only
16:44:37 <Zakim> - +1.571.309.aaxx
16:44:37 <aleecia> q?
16:44:38 <jmayer> q?
16:44:41 <jkaran> q+
16:44:41 <pde> amyc, IMO it's not tracking if you don't retain it
16:44:46 <tl> aleecia: yes, but question is whether ip can be used for targeting
16:45:06 <Zakim> -npdoty
16:45:11 <Zakim> + +1.571.309.aayy
16:45:40 <aleecia> ack tl
16:45:50 <aleecia> ack jmayer
16:45:57 <dsinger_> Q+
16:47:16 <jmayer> Rationale: if an advertising company gets the IP and referrer no matter what, why not allow some advertising use?
16:47:22 <tl> tl: any current info, including ip, may not be used to target an ad
16:47:23 <tl> jonathan: perhaps advertising people will like this.
16:47:23 <tl> ... using current ip or referrer , without collection, would be ok
16:47:27 <tl> ... i'm ok with uncollected session information used to target
16:47:37 <tl> tl: i can live with jonathan's definition
16:47:46 <aleecia> q?
16:47:48 <pde> and let's focus on the privacy problem we need to address here, which is the /retention/ of the IP and referrer by the advertiser
16:47:56 <tl> q+
16:47:58 <clp> q+
16:48:04 <dsinger_> Q-
16:48:06 <davidwai_> q+
16:48:06 <aleecia> ack amyc
16:48:28 <tl> aleecia: what about the user interaction of showing a geotargeted ad to user with dnt on. is that good?
16:48:42 <tl> amy: using current ip doesn't seem like tracking or oba
16:48:56 <aleecia> ack pde
16:49:11 <dsinger_> Q+
16:49:15 <jkaran> q-
16:49:32 <pde> q+
16:49:42 <aleecia> ack jkaran
16:49:46 <tl> pde: do we have consensus to use ip, referrer in a fleeting manner to target ads
16:49:49 <aleecia> q?
16:50:00 <aleecia> ack tl
16:50:05 <tl> q-
16:50:13 <alex> q+
16:50:14 <aleecia> ack clp
16:50:49 <tlr> zakim, call thomas-781
16:50:50 <Zakim> ok, tlr; the call is being made
16:50:50 <Zakim> +Thomas
16:51:21 <aleecia> ack davidwai_
16:52:00 <alex> q-
16:52:35 <ronan> ronan has joined #dnt
16:52:50 <Zakim> +[Apple.a]
16:52:51 <hober> Zakim, Apple has hober
16:52:52 <Zakim> +hober; got it
16:53:10 <Zakim> - +49.157.884.8.aann
16:53:11 <jmayer> +q
16:53:35 <aleecia> noted
16:53:46 <Zakim> + +49.157.884.8.aazz
16:53:48 <pde> clp: worried that users would perceive geotargetting as "tracking", even though behind the scenes nothing was being retained about them
16:54:43 <tl> tl has joined #dnt
16:54:51 <tl> jules: distinguish between geo-targeting (which is important) for say  region-coding by country, rather than targeting based on aggregate demographics assoociated with ip/zip
16:54:55 <tl> ... the latter is a de-facto profile
16:55:13 <tl> hear hear!
16:55:38 <aleecia> q?
16:55:46 <aleecia> ack jmayer
16:56:11 <tl> jmayer: jules, taking an ip, and using that as the index for profiles would count as oba, and excluded
16:56:15 <tl> jules: yes
16:56:35 <aleecia> ack dsinger_
16:57:37 <tl> dsinger_, it may not be prudent to offer ads that may nonetheless be allowed, because the user thinks that creepy. nonetheless, treating user as if you know nothing else about them than what you see right now
16:57:46 <davidwai_> will the standard include best practice recommendations?
16:58:00 <aleecia> ?
16:58:03 <aleecia> q?
16:58:25 <tl> ... ex, if historical data is used, user may see no difference, =[
16:58:35 <Zakim> -Jonathan
16:59:03 <Zakim> +Jonathan
16:59:20 <tl> aleecia: propositon: a 3p seeing dnt, barring conflict w/ opt-back in or exemptions, may not us current data to target ad, except ip or referrer
16:59:32 <dsinger_> I think the basic principle is that you are treating me as someone about whom you know nothing except what is visible in this transaction, and remember nothing.
17:00:09 <tl> ... (at a minimum, may add to this later)
17:00:15 <tl> ... to serve a targeted ad
17:00:43 <davidwai_> q+
17:01:17 <Zakim> - +1.415.734.aamm
17:01:19 <aleecia> ack davidwai_
17:01:27 <tl> q+
17:01:35 <pde> Zakim: pde is Peter Eckersley
17:01:43 <pde> Zakim, pde is Peter Eckersley
17:01:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pde is Peter Eckersley', pde
17:01:50 <tl> davidwai_: i am not aware of a definition of tracking which includes current session info
17:01:54 <BrianTs> q+
17:01:58 <pde> Zakim, nick pde is Peter Eckersley
17:01:58 <Zakim> I don't understand 'nick pde is Peter Eckersley', pde
17:02:01 <tl> aleecia: does anyone agree with david?
17:02:09 <aleecia> ack tl
17:02:09 <pde> Zakim, nick pde is Peter-Eckersley
17:02:10 <Zakim> sorry, pde, I do not see a party named 'Peter-Eckersley'
17:02:23 <aleecia> q?
17:02:32 <Zakim> -efelten
17:02:49 <jmayer> +q
17:02:51 <davidwai_> q+
17:02:53 <aleecia> ack BrianT
17:03:02 <tl> tl: propose that definition, because users find it creepy
17:03:19 <Zakim> - +1.571.309.aayy
17:03:28 <pde> q-
17:03:39 <tl> BrianTs: query string is passed to third party. what about additional information passed by first party
17:03:53 <BrianTs> q-
17:03:54 <tl> ... may see a targeted ad on that
17:03:59 <dsinger_> Q?
17:04:06 <amyc> q+
17:04:18 <amyc> I agree with David
17:04:28 <tl> jmayer: some agreement with david
17:05:27 <dmckinney> I agree that this is Targeting, not Tracking
17:05:29 <tl> jmayer: what if a 1p passes say gender to a 3p? i'm okay with that, probably. but not more info.
17:05:43 <aleecia> ack jmayer
17:05:58 <tl> ... say name
17:06:09 <aleecia> is davidwai_
17:06:29 <aleecia> ack davidwai_
17:06:32 <dsinger_> I feel we need a strawman and more email discussion
17:06:40 <aleecia> I'm noticing that too
17:07:24 <pde> q+
17:07:27 <tl> davidwai_, tom, srsly?
17:07:39 <tl> tl: reiterate, assertion.
17:07:46 <Zakim> -tl
17:07:48 <amyc> q-
17:08:19 <Zakim> +tl
17:08:31 <jkaran> q+
17:08:34 <tl> aleecia: users are asking to have ads not personalized to them
17:08:44 <tl> ... dnt is the ui for that
17:09:14 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #dnt
17:09:18 <jkaran> disagree with aleecia
17:09:20 <tl> ... folks should write up proposals
17:09:36 <schunter> schunter has joined #dnt
17:09:36 <aleecia> ack pde
17:09:48 <dsinger> users are asking not to have databases built about them; targetting is a symptom, not the core problem, IMHO
17:09:50 <aleecia> will be asking for proposals
17:09:53 <tl> q+
17:09:58 <aleecia> think about if you'd like to make one
17:10:15 <tl> pde: what part of this consensus do you not agree with
17:11:01 <tl> j: i don't understand the exemption for ip & referrer
17:11:14 <tl> pde: not an exemption, it's an explanation
17:11:24 <dmckinney> what about lat/long info from a mobile device?
17:11:53 <tl> ... you always get ip & referrer with that specific request. that's not tracking. the real question is whether you can use info from five minutes ago.
17:12:07 <justin> Agree with PDE
17:12:37 <dsinger> you should treat me as a person about whom you know nothing, have been told nothing, and remember nothing, using only data that is not remembered and not associated with me. So it's OK to notice I am in California, where it is evening, on a web site that sells bar snacks.  Maybe I have a party this evening....
17:13:23 <aleecia> action tl Tom to write a proposal on what DNT means to 3rd parties due by tuesday
17:13:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-8 - Tom to write a proposal on what DNT means to 3rd parties due by tuesday [on Thomas Lowenthal - due 2011-10-05].
17:13:37 <jmayer> dsinger, what about other things the bar snacks site says about the user?
17:13:44 <tl> aleecia: any competing proposals
17:14:05 <pde> pde: I also said (to which several ppl agreed) that allowing the 3rd party to use data from 5 minutes ago /would/ be tracking, and we'd need to talk about a special exception for that
17:14:09 <tl> action davidwai_ to write a proposal on what DNT means to 3rd parties due by tuesday
17:14:09 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - davidwai_
17:14:27 <tl> action davidwai_ David to write a proposal on what DNT means to 3rd parties due by tuesday
17:14:28 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - davidwai_
17:14:32 <tl> action davidwai David to write a proposal on what DNT means to 3rd parties due by tuesday
17:14:32 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - davidwai
17:14:53 <aleecia> q?
17:14:57 <davidwai_> action davidwainberg David to write a proposal on what DNT means to 3rd parties due by tuesday 
17:14:57 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - davidwainberg
17:15:07 <pde> q+
17:15:11 <tl> aleecia: pure 1p interaction, what to do when seeing a dnt header
17:15:19 <aleecia> ack jakaran
17:15:24 <aleecia> ack tl
17:15:28 <aleecia> ack jkaran
17:15:32 <aleecia> ack pde
17:15:39 <tl> pde: 1ps should get may or should rather than must
17:16:04 <dsinger> q+
17:16:06 <tl> ... more advice & best practices rather than requirements
17:16:07 <jmayer> +q
17:16:10 <tl> q+
17:16:12 <aleecia> ack dsinger
17:16:26 <aleecia> ack jmayer
17:16:30 <tl> dsinger, 1p must not relay personal info to 3p
17:16:46 <tl> jmayer, i do not believe in a must for 1ps
17:17:12 <dsinger> ok, I can live with the onus being on the 3rd party to ignore it, and only recommend that the 1st party not relay it
17:17:20 <tl> jmayer, probably, dsinger's suggestions should be shoulds, not musts
17:17:29 <amyc> dsinger - that would mean first party would not be able to display any ads, right?
17:17:36 <tl> ... most info handoff code is from 3ps
17:17:41 <aleecia> ack tl
17:17:41 <tl> q+
17:17:48 <aleecia> ack tl
17:18:39 <tl> action tl to proposal for what 1ps must do, by tuesday
17:18:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-9 - Proposal for what 1ps must do, by tuesday [on Thomas Lowenthal - due 2011-10-05].
17:18:52 <aleecia> q?
17:19:03 <tl> action jmayer proposal for the obligations (or not) on 1ps
17:19:03 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - jmayer
17:19:08 <aleecia> q?
17:19:17 <tl> action jmayer  proposal for the obligations (or not) on 1ps
17:19:17 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - jmayer
17:19:48 <tl> aleecia: any other proposals, suggestions?
17:20:09 <pde> we seem to have some problems with the relationship between our IRC nicks and our identities in W3C systems.  I bet Aleecia told us about what to do about this right at the start of the process :)
17:20:20 <dsriedel> q+
17:20:25 <tl> q+
17:20:37 <jmayer> ACTION: jmayer to write 2(+?) sentence proposal that no MUSTs for first parties - due Tuesday
17:20:37 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - jmayer
17:20:45 <aleecia> ack dsriedel
17:20:47 <tlr> ACTION: mayer to draft a proposal for the obligations (or not) on first parties
17:20:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-10 - Draft a proposal for the obligations (or not) on first parties [on Jonathan Mayer - due 2011-10-05].
17:21:01 <tl> dsriedel, what are 1p, 3p?
17:21:07 <pde> ACTION: Jonathan to write 2(+?) sentence proposal that no MUSTs for first parties - due Tuesday
17:21:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-11 - write 2(+?) sentence proposal that no MUSTs for first parties [on Jonathan Mayer - due 2011-10-04].
17:21:19 <pde> oops
17:21:29 <tl> aleecia: we have not agreed, there are open issues, that is deferred.
17:21:52 <tl> ... we'll get to that later
17:21:52 <aleecia> q?
17:22:00 <aleecia> ack tl
17:22:10 <tlr> to fix this: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/users?login
17:22:42 <aleecia> davidwai_ for example
17:23:10 <aleecia> q?
17:23:11 <tl> tl: account-nick pairings?
17:23:15 <tl> aleecia: will fix
17:23:41 <tl> aleecia: watch this space: next week, same time, same place. you know where to find us.
17:24:03 <Zakim> - +1.703.438.aavv
17:24:05 <jmayer> thanks aleecia
17:24:06 <Zakim> - +1.813.366.aaii
17:24:07 <tl> ... adjourned!
17:24:07 <Zakim> -justin
17:24:07 <Zakim> - +1.206.658.aatt
17:24:08 <Zakim> - +3249434aaww
17:24:08 <Zakim> -NogaRosenthal
17:24:08 <Zakim> -davidwainberg
17:24:09 <Zakim> - +1.813.907.aajj
17:24:10 <clp> bye
17:24:11 <Zakim> -dmckinney
17:24:13 <Zakim> -Thomas
17:24:15 <Zakim> - +1.212.673.aaqq
17:24:17 <Zakim> - +49.721.913.74.aagg
17:24:19 <Zakim> -PederMagee
17:24:21 <Zakim> - +1.510.501.aarr
17:24:23 <Zakim> -tl
17:24:25 <Zakim> - +1.415.920.aauu
17:24:27 <Zakim> -??P39
17:24:29 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:24:31 <Zakim> -[Apple.a]
17:24:33 <Zakim> -aleecia
17:24:35 <Zakim> - +1.908.541.aakk
17:24:35 <tl> aleecia, do you have time right now to follow up a few administrive issues by phone?
17:24:37 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:24:44 <aleecia> yes. please call my cell
17:24:45 <tlr> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:24:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/28-dnt-minutes.html tlr
17:24:46 <Zakim> - +49.157.884.8.aazz
17:24:49 <Zakim> -Jonathan
17:24:50 <Zakim> Team_(dnt)16:00Z has ended
17:24:52 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.202.872.aaaa, +1.609.981.aabb, dsinger, +1.510.859.aacc, npdoty, aleecia, tl, +1.202.684.aadd, +1.212.231.aaee, Jonathan, +49.721.913.74.aagg, NogaRosenthal,
17:24:56 <Zakim> ... +1.215.591.aahh, alissa, +1.813.366.aaii, +1.813.907.aajj, +1.908.541.aakk, +1.202.326.aall, +1.415.734.aamm, efelten, dmckinney, +49.157.884.8.aann, +1.202.637.aaoo, justin,
17:25:01 <Zakim> ... [Microsoft], +1.646.723.aapp, +1.212.673.aaqq, davidwainberg, +1.510.501.aarr, +1.202.326.aass, PederMagee, enewland, +1.206.658.aatt, +1.415.920.aauu, +1.703.438.aavv,
17:25:03 <Zakim> ... +3249434aaww, +1.571.309.aaxx, +1.571.309.aayy, Thomas, [Apple], hober, +49.157.884.8.aazz
17:26:32 <pde> Zakim: I am peckersl
17:26:38 <pde> Zakim, I am peckersl
17:26:38 <Zakim> sorry, pde, I do not see a party named 'peckersl'
17:27:39 <pde> tlr: how do I add myself to the list of TPWG participants?
17:33:11 <schunter> schunter has joined #dnt
17:38:00 <aleecia> aleecia has left #dnt
17:44:18 <enewland> enewland has joined #dnt
17:44:19 <enewland> enewland has left #dnt
17:59:53 <schunter> schunter has joined #dnt
18:26:26 <schunter> schunter has joined #dnt
18:40:31 <karl> karl has joined #dnt
19:59:24 <tl> tl has joined #dnt
20:00:37 <tl> tl has joined #dnt
20:18:39 <dsriedel> dsriedel has joined #dnt
20:32:34 <schunter> schunter has joined #dnt
20:57:27 <schunter> schunter has joined #dnt
21:12:40 <tl> tl has joined #dnt
21:47:04 <mischat> mischat has joined #dnt
23:25:14 <tl> tl has joined #dnt