13:35:05 RRSAgent has joined #dap 13:35:05 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/28-dap-irc 13:35:07 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:35:07 Zakim has joined #dap 13:35:09 Zakim, this will be DAP 13:35:10 Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference 13:35:10 Date: 28 September 2011 13:35:10 ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 25 minutes 13:35:43 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Sep/0127.html 13:36:24 Chair: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch 13:36:28 Present+ Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch 13:37:05 Regrets+ Niklas_Widell 13:51:27 Kihong_Kwon has joined #dap 13:56:53 spoussa has joined #dap 13:59:14 UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started 13:59:21 +??P8 13:59:23 zakim, ?? is me 13:59:23 +fjh; got it 13:59:40 Claes has joined #dap 13:59:58 + +1.289.261.aaaa 14:00:04 + +44.778.611.aabb 14:00:06 + +1.503.380.aacc 14:00:14 Present+ Ernesto_Jimenez 14:00:32 Zakim, aabb is me 14:00:32 +ernesto_jimenez; got it 14:01:17 Present+ Sakari_Poussa 14:01:18 zakim, who is here? 14:01:18 On the phone I see fjh, +1.289.261.aaaa, ernesto_jimenez, +1.503.380.aacc 14:01:20 On IRC I see Claes, spoussa, Kihong_Kwon, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, ernesto_jimenez, dcoloma, darobin, ingmar, ilkka, trackbot, dom 14:01:28 Dzung_Tran has joined #dap 14:01:33 Present+ Dzung_Tran 14:01:39 +??P12 14:02:02 + +46.1.08.01.aadd 14:02:15 aadd is Claes 14:02:17 zakim, 289 is josh 14:02:17 sorry, fjh, I do not recognize a party named '289' 14:02:29 zakim, aaaa is josh 14:02:29 +josh; got it 14:02:49 zakim, aadd is Claes 14:02:49 +Claes; got it 14:02:55 zakim, 503 is spoussa 14:02:55 sorry, fjh, I do not recognize a party named '503' 14:03:01 Present+ Claes_Nilsson 14:03:02 zakim, aacc is spoussa 14:03:02 +spoussa; got it 14:03:07 zakim, who is here? 14:03:07 On the phone I see fjh, josh, ernesto_jimenez, spoussa, ??P12, Claes 14:03:08 On IRC I see Dzung_Tran, Claes, spoussa, Kihong_Kwon, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, ernesto_jimenez, dcoloma, darobin, ingmar, ilkka, trackbot, dom 14:03:09 zakim, aacc is spoussa 14:03:09 sorry, spoussa, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc' 14:03:14 +??P17 14:03:15 Zakim, ??P17 is me 14:03:16 +dom; got it 14:03:30 Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux 14:04:20 Josh_Soref has joined #dap 14:04:27 zakim, who is on the call? 14:04:27 On the phone I see fjh, josh, ernesto_jimenez, spoussa, ??P12, Claes, dom 14:05:05 AnssiK has joined #dap 14:05:05 Clarke has joined #dap 14:05:13 scribenick: Josh_Soref 14:05:21 Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen 14:05:23 + +1.425.214.aaee 14:05:32 zakim, ??P12 is clarke 14:05:32 +clarke; got it 14:05:35 - +1.425.214.aaee 14:05:41 Present+ Josh_Soref 14:05:44 Present+ Kihong_Kwon 14:05:48 bryan has joined #dap 14:05:54 zakim, who is here? 14:05:54 On the phone I see fjh, josh, ernesto_jimenez, spoussa, clarke, Claes, dom 14:05:55 Present+ Sakari_Poussa 14:05:56 On IRC I see bryan, Clarke, AnssiK, Josh_Soref, Dzung_Tran, Claes, spoussa, Kihong_Kwon, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, ernesto_jimenez, dcoloma, darobin, ingmar, ilkka, trackbot, dom 14:06:03 +??P13 14:06:09 zakim, ??P13 is me 14:06:09 +AnssiK; got it 14:06:18 + +1.425.214.aaff 14:07:08 present+ Bryan_Sullivan 14:07:33 zakim, aaff is bryan 14:07:33 +bryan; got it 14:07:34 +??P5 14:07:42 Zakim, ??P5 is me 14:07:42 +darobin; got it 14:08:14 Topic: Introductions 14:08:43 zakari: my name is zakari 14:08:47 Cathy has joined #dap 14:08:49 ... i work for Intel 14:08:53 -> https://www.tizen.org/ 14:08:58 ... i used to work for Nokia 14:09:02 Present+ Cathy_Chan 14:09:11 ... i'm working on tizen 14:09:22 richt has joined #dap 14:09:22 + +1.781.266.aagg 14:09:25 ... defining and creating web apis for tizen 14:09:31 zakim, aagg is me 14:09:31 +Cathy; got it 14:09:36 clarke: clarke stevens from cable labs 14:09:47 ... i'm the moderator for XXX 14:10:05 zakim, who is here? 14:10:05 On the phone I see fjh, josh, ernesto_jimenez, spoussa, clarke, Claes, dom, AnssiK, bryan, darobin, Cathy 14:10:05 ... i'm the technical chair of upnp 14:10:08 On IRC I see Cathy, bryan, Clarke, AnssiK, Josh_Soref, Dzung_Tran, Claes, spoussa, Kihong_Kwon, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, ernesto_jimenez, dcoloma, darobin, ingmar, ilkka, trackbot, 14:10:10 ... dom 14:10:12 ... took over for cathy 14:10:31 TPAC registration reminder, deadline 10 Oct hotel, 14 Oct registration, http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011 14:10:31 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-device-apis/2011Sep/0003.html 14:10:44 Hi, Cathy 14:10:45 Topic: TPAC 14:10:57 s/Hi, Cathy// 14:10:58 richt has joined #dap 14:11:12 fjh: reminder to register 14:11:15 need to create a questionnaire for TPAC attendance, in person and remote 14:11:25 ... i don't know if we have a questionaire 14:11:43 ... i don't know who can do it 14:11:56 darobin: team contact or chair can 14:12:02 +??P19 14:12:06 fjh: ok, i'll do it 14:12:26 Zakim, ??P19 is me 14:12:26 +Kihong_Kwon; got it 14:12:39 Topic: Minutes approval 14:12:58 dom: we know who will be in the room 14:13:14 +??P20 14:13:22 Present+ Rich_Tibbett 14:13:29 zakim, P20 is me 14:13:29 sorry, richt, I do not recognize a party named 'P20' 14:13:33 zakim, ??P20 is me 14:13:33 +richt; got it 14:14:01 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Sep/att-0081/minutes-2011-09-14.html 14:14:02 proposed RESOLUTION: Minutes from 14 September 2011 are approved 14:14:17 RESOLUTION: Minutes from 14 September 2011 are approved 14:14:25 Topic: Battery 14:14:34 updated version of the Battery Status Event spec was released as new Working Draft: http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-battery-status-20110915/ 14:14:35 comments, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Sep/0082.html 14:14:35 Mozilla battery wiki, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Sep/0116.html (Robin) 14:14:37 fjh: we have a new draft published 14:14:38 q+ 14:14:49 ack AnssiK 14:15:01 ... and mozilla has a draft implementation 14:15:09 anssik: we have two implementations 14:15:21 ... i think it's time to align 14:15:30 ... based on them 14:15:41 ... mozilla has some minor deviations 14:16:00 ... the next step forward is to get official feedback 14:16:12 .... xxx1 did the implementation 14:16:22 s/xxx1/Kihong_Kwon 14:16:29 ... based on interest from implementers 14:16:49 ... i think we can quickly converge 14:17:08 ... i think theres some notes on the mozilla? wiki 14:17:23 ... they've documented their design 14:17:32 ... which is implicit feedback 14:17:47 ... i'd rather they sent explicit feedback to a list 14:18:06 ... there's also their bug tracker ( bug 14:18:14 s/bug/bugzilla) 14:18:20 -dom 14:18:47 ... from kihong_kwon, i'd like to receive your feedback too 14:18:59 ... i understand you're based on an earlier draft 14:19:08 Kihong_Kwon? 14:19:31 +??P2 14:19:35 Zakim, ??P2 is me 14:19:35 +dom; got it 14:19:47 Zakim, mute me 14:19:47 dom should now be muted 14:20:35 zakim, mute me 14:20:35 sorry, Josh_Soref, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 14:20:43 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Sep/0125.html 14:20:48 Topic: Device Status Task Force 14:21:05 Zakim, unmute me 14:21:05 dom should no longer be muted 14:21:46 q+ 14:21:48 dom: based on feedback from members and implementers we created the Device Status TF 14:22:03 ... make sure that you sign up for it if you're interested in Battery and Network Info 14:22:14 ack richt 14:22:33 q+ on Network Info 14:22:34 q? 14:22:38 fjh: we should also figure out what to do with network info 14:23:03 richt: just wondering about IP commitment 14:23:08 ... for xxx3 14:23:21 fjh: i think it's either WG commitment 14:23:27 ... or an explicit commitment 14:24:03 ack me 14:24:04 darobin, you wanted to comment on Network Info 14:24:08 fjh: that's a problem beyond any WG 14:24:18 darobin: in general 14:24:50 ... the commitment outside of WG gives a little bit less rights 14:25:02 s/beyond any WG/for W3C process, not a WG to determine 14:25:04 ... but it's just a strange workaround 14:25:20 darobin: on network information 14:25:36 ... i haven't found anyone with a reason for why it's useful 14:25:44 IPR commitment for members of task force is same as for WG, either through WG membership or explicit IPR licensing committment 14:25:47 ... looking at mozilla's work 14:26:13 q? 14:26:15 ... i don't think they're able to see a use either ?? 14:26:54 Topic: Feature Permissions API 14:27:04 evised example, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Sep/0006.html (Wonsuk) 14:27:05 ACTION-435 Update the Permissions draft based on f2f discussion and summary email from Robin in planning for FPWD Laszlo Gombos 14:27:05 ISSUE-109 We need solid use cases for Feat Perms if it's going to fly 14:27:07 fjh: i don't think lazlo is on the call 14:27:23 fjh: i think people should join the task force 14:27:30 ... which most of us have 14:27:36 Topic: Discovery 14:27:49 Call for comments, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Sep/0087.html 14:27:50 Opera proposal updated, "web page can request multiple service types up front and receive multiple service types in the callback ", see 14:27:50 avoiding polling, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Sep/0108.html 14:27:50 use case, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Sep/0095.html (Dave Raggett) 14:27:50 filtering by context, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Sep/0097.html (Dave Raggett) 14:27:53 fjh: there was a lot of discussion 14:28:05 ... mitch, did you want to speak? 14:28:16 s/mitch/Richt 14:28:30 mitch: i made this proposal based on the web and tv group in opera 14:28:38 s/mitch/richt/g 14:29:07 richt: if there's little interest in getting this in the group 14:29:17 q+ to ask about range of lower level protocols and dave's work 14:29:19 ... then i'm not interested in working on it ?? 14:29:37 richt: i'd like to see an implementation 14:29:43 q+ to ask if we should maintain a use cases list 14:29:47 ... i'd like to see it come from opera 14:30:06 ... it will come, but there's a lot in front of it 14:30:13 clarke: we have an implementation 14:30:17 ... it's preliminary 14:30:43 ack fjh 14:30:43 fjh, you wanted to ask about range of lower level protocols and dave's work 14:30:45 q+ to ask about putting hands on implementation 14:31:44 ... we'll be submitting it soon 14:31:44 fjh: i believe you have a submission 14:31:44 ... maybe cathy has more details 14:31:45 ... i believe there are two lower protocols 14:31:49 ... feedback on the list talks about integrating 14:32:09 q+ to point out agnostic design may not fulflll the needs of the CE community, per comments in the Web and TV workshop 14:32:27 feedback to Dave Raggett http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Sep/0098.html 14:32:29 ... i believe there were questions about accessing lower layers 14:33:01 richt: there are sort of design differences, it's not a competition though happy to find a middle ground 14:33:08 ... opera cares a lot about optin 14:33:22 ... webinos relies on its security framework, which is questionable in a browser 14:33:34 ... we are sitting down with webinos, SE tomorrow to figure it out 14:33:48 ... we're working with everybody, if it means complete redesign so be it 14:33:55 ack me 14:33:55 ack darobin 14:33:56 darobin, you wanted to ask if we should maintain a use cases list and to ask about putting hands on implementation 14:34:01 -Cathy 14:34:38 darobin: should WG maintain a summary of use cases, either document or wiki or in some manner? 14:34:41 -dom 14:34:57 darobin: need this for Web and TV coordination as well 14:35:03 darobin: volunteers? 14:35:14 +??P2 14:35:19 Zakim, ??P2 is me 14:35:19 +dom; got it 14:35:42 clarke: attended web and tv meeting last week, agreed to submit use cases to DAP, meet jointly at TPAC? 14:35:56 darobin: an informal way of doing this would work well 14:36:03 s/this/submission 14:36:19 I could check with the TV group at Intel and the rep there 14:36:24 +Cathy 14:36:30 q? 14:36:36 darobin: asks about implementation 14:36:53 clarke: plan to share before TPAC. implemented as Java applet, tested on all browsers 14:37:13 clarke: should know how it works where soon. works on windows, mac, linux and major browsers 14:37:51 clarke: includes both UPnP and Zeroconf 14:38:09 richt: would like to see how permissions work with this and UI 14:38:15 [btw, shared brain for agenda preparation is at http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/wiki/F2F_Agenda_3-4_November_2011,_Santa_Clara_%28TPAC%29] 14:38:33 clarke: following spec working on with Opera 14:39:08 clarke: use custom XHR for cross-origin 14:39:19 q? 14:39:22 ack bryan 14:39:22 bryan, you wanted to point out agnostic design may not fulflll the needs of the CE community, per comments in the Web and TV workshop 14:39:32 Josh_Soref_ has joined #dap 14:39:48 ScribeNick: Josh_Soref 14:39:54 bryan: API design issue is on how high or low level 14:40:11 http://www.w3.org/mid/CA9F9132.1474B%25blsaws@gmail.com -> suggestion from Bryan 14:40:12 bryan: it seems there was a desire to have access to the low level protocol 14:40:18 ... that is a key issue 14:40:29 ... i don't think that a totally agnostic api will meet the needs of the 14:40:34 ... XXX5 committee 14:40:53 Clarke: we believe we can implement a generic api 14:41:01 ... that will work for zeroconf / upnp / ... 14:41:10 ... with a security model 14:41:27 richt: this discussion has been going on for a while in web&tv at opera 14:41:33 ... i think it makes sense to try a model 14:41:36 ... and various models 14:41:39 ... and see how they work 14:42:33 fjh: I think we should have more discussion on the list 14:42:37 s/... and various models// 14:42:58 s/they work/the use cases work with it/ 14:43:02 Art's Q: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Sep/0121.html 14:43:10 fjh: I think Art sent a question 14:43:18 ... some confusion about terminology 14:43:26 Topic: WebIntents 14:43:38 fjh: there's the old google web intents 14:43:42 ... and a new web intents 14:43:56 darobin: I was following the discussion on web apps 14:44:05 ... and the issue with Google/MS joining 14:44:15 ... is RF 14:44:24 ... we need to make it easy for other vendors to join 14:44:33 ... without having to write off IP if they don't want to 14:44:49 fjh: It doesn't sound like this is stuff for the WG to discuss 14:44:57 ... I wonder if we need to technically clarify the work 14:45:15 ... it seems we have two different groups with different proposals 14:45:20 ... and they're progressing differently 14:45:42 ... i'm not sure of the value in comparing the older stuff vs. the new 14:45:50 ... beyond the political issue of where the work should be done 14:45:56 ... i believe a number of us follow both groups 14:46:12 xxx7: wrt Web Introducer 14:46:32 s/xxx7/claes/ 14:46:34 ... it seems that web intents is now the solution which has the most support 14:46:52 ... the concepts are very similar when it comes to applications 14:46:56 ... they solve the same use cases 14:47:13 ... basically they are very similar from an application developer's point of view 14:47:19 ... and from the user's point of view 14:47:32 fjh: so basically the solve the same things in a fairly similar manner 14:48:14 Claes: i'm preparing a wiki page covering the opera proposal, and the webinos proposal 14:48:18 -spoussa 14:48:28 ... and i'll try to add the intents proposal 14:48:33 ... it will be on the DAP wiki 14:48:57 Topic: Streams API 14:49:03 ACTION: Robin to reply to ArtB about Web Intents 14:49:04 Created ACTION-455 - Reply to ArtB about Web Intents [on Robin Berjon - due 2011-10-05]. 14:49:08 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Sep/0105.html 14:49:12 +spoussa 14:49:20 darobin: let me put it this way, Microsoft has IP they don't want to disclose. There's only so much I can say. 14:49:21 darobin: It's not something we need to jump on right away 14:49:32 zakim, who is here? 14:49:32 On the phone I see fjh, josh, ernesto_jimenez, clarke, Claes, AnssiK, bryan, darobin, Kihong_Kwon, richt, dom, Cathy, spoussa 14:49:34 On IRC I see Josh_Soref, richt, Cathy, bryan, Clarke, AnssiK, Claes, spoussa, Kihong_Kwon, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, ernesto_jimenez, dcoloma, darobin, ingmar, ilkka, trackbot, dom 14:50:00 darobin: Streams is relevant to Camera for capture 14:50:20 -dom 14:50:21 s/darobin: let me put it this way, Microsoft has IP they don't want to disclose. There's only so much I can say.// 14:50:34 Topic: TPAC F2F 14:50:38 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/wiki/F2F_Agenda_3-4_November_2011,_Santa_Clara_(TPAC) 14:50:40 fjh: I put together a wiki page 14:50:49 ... we need to know well in advance what we're doing 14:51:28 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/wiki/F2F_Agenda_3-4_November_2011,_Santa_Clara_(TPAC) 14:51:43 [ scribe will need to % encode commas to make the links happy ] 14:52:04 fjh: Web and TV 14:52:19 fjh: if people have things that should be discussed, please add to the wiki 14:52:21 q+ 14:52:22 +1 to direct editing 14:52:26 ... or send to the list to talk about it 14:52:27 ack AnssiK 14:52:29 acl anssik 14:52:38 AnssiK: a couple of weeks ago there was a proposal sent to the list 14:52:40 s/acl member:anssik// 14:52:42 ... re battery status 14:52:47 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Sep/0129.html 14:52:47 ack AnssiK 14:53:04 AnssiK: should we discuss that at TPAC or on this call? 14:53:15 fjh: I couldn't tell if you wanted that in the Testing WG 14:53:27 AnssiK: the reason was that the browser testing tools already incorporate this functionality 14:53:41 ... it's about exposing that api to developers 14:53:51 zakim, who is here? 14:53:51 On the phone I see fjh, josh, ernesto_jimenez, clarke, Claes, AnssiK, bryan, darobin, Kihong_Kwon, richt, Cathy, spoussa 14:53:53 ... the Testing WG exposes console.log 14:53:54 On IRC I see Josh_Soref, richt, Cathy, bryan, Clarke, AnssiK, Claes, spoussa, Kihong_Kwon, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, ernesto_jimenez, dcoloma, darobin, ingmar, ilkka, trackbot, dom 14:54:14 fjh: darobin, i'm not sure what you think about this 14:54:27 darobin: for something like that, the first step would be to look to see if there's any interest from implementers 14:54:37 ... if there's no interest, then adding a spec, is just adding a spec 14:54:44 ... people do run out of memory 14:54:54 ... one thing to do is to discuss with Mozilla on the TF 14:54:59 ... see what mozilla has to say 14:55:06 s/TF/DAP task force 14:55:09 ... obviously if other implementers are interested 14:55:22 AnssiK: do you know the status of charles? 14:55:31 ... is he in a position to comment as an implementer? 14:55:37 darobin: currently, i don't know 14:56:09 AnssiK: maybe use the TF as a vehicle 14:56:48 fjh: I think people should directly edit the TPAC-DAP-F2F wiki 14:57:02 fjh: Contacts, i think josh sent something 14:57:12 Topic: Contacts 14:58:02 josh_Soref: issue is non-portable names with internationalization, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Sep/0128.html 14:58:25 josh_soref: names used for search or for display 14:58:54 josh_soref: search should be able to handle multiple results, hence split not needed, so just store display names 14:59:08 -Claes 14:59:11 josh_soref: could display multiple display names, a decision to be made 14:59:23 josh_soref: related issue is entry of names 15:00:10 s/related issue is entry of names/user agent needs mechanism for selection of names as well 15:02:01 darobin: feedback, displayname makes a lot of sense 15:02:07 ... for internationalization 15:02:12 s/darobin/richt 15:02:14 ... yes, formatting gets lost 15:02:19 ... but that's not a big deal 15:02:27 ... but if you're going to reimport that back 15:02:31 ... you've lost it 15:02:43 ... it's impossible to design a contacts api that everyone loves 15:02:54 ... i've been thinking of other ways to do this 15:03:00 ... a container way 15:03:18 ... it's hard to write this in a way that makes sense for everyone 15:03:50 ernesto_jimenez: I've checked contacts APIs from Android, iPhone, Blackberry, office, etc. They usually have a display name, which will be the only reliable attribute for the developer because a contact might not have family/given/middle name at all and the display name might be the email 15:04:20 'it's impossible to design a contacts api that everyone loves' is the lesson learnt. Recent thinking is on allowing anyone to write their own contacts apis and expose those as services to the web browser (ala, Web Intents, Web Introducer, Opera's Service Discovery & Messaging proposal 15:04:38 Android has two apis, an old one http://developer.android.com/reference/android/provider/Contacts.html and a new one: http://developer.android.com/reference/android/provider/ContactsContract.html 15:04:46 ernesto_jimenez: the question would be if we expose the structured name (with family, given and middle) apart from the display name, but those attributes might be missing from the backend data, so display_name would be the only reliable attribute for developers anyway 15:05:19 darobin: I know that mozilla is implementing a contacts api 15:05:23 ... and they started from ours 15:05:26 ... i don't know its status 15:05:27 we need implementation work on contacts in order to progress it 15:05:34 ... or whether it will be ready in time for TPAC 15:05:50 I have part of a commitment from our group to do work 15:05:57 [if everyone does their own Contacts service API we're not better off than we are today actually] 15:05:58 ... eventually, but i don't have anything like a schedule 15:06:11 -josh 15:06:36 +josh 15:06:47 [ Mozilla's Contacts impl: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=674720 ] 15:08:08 [ Phonegap's impl: http://docs.phonegap.com/phonegap_contacts_contacts.md.html#Contact ] 15:09:22 Topic: OMMXG 15:09:35 s/Topic: OMMXG// 15:10:42