IRC log of css on 2011-09-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:21:47 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #css
15:21:47 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/28-css-irc
15:21:51 [glazou]: Zakim, this will be Style
15:21:51 [Zakim]: ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 39 minutes
15:21:58 [glazou]: RRSAgent, make logs public
15:36:42 [danielweck]: danielweck has joined #css
15:37:20 [miketayl_r]: miketayl_r has joined #css
15:41:54 [antonp]: antonp has joined #css
15:43:03 [sylvaing]: sylvaing has joined #css
15:44:45 [myakura]: myakura has joined #css
15:48:24 [antonp]: Hi, sorry, I'm away from my main machine where I have the dial-in number for the call stored. Please could somebody display it here? Thanks
15:52:55 [hober]: 1.617.761.6200
15:53:09 [hober]: pin 78953
15:53:18 [antonp]: thanks!
15:53:40 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #css
15:55:13 [hober]: np
15:56:05 [dsinger_]: Dave sends regrets; his phone and such attention as he has are on the tracking call which is also happening now...
15:56:17 [glazou]: antonp: ask "Zakim, code?"
15:56:21 [glazou]: Zakim, code?
15:56:21 [Zakim]: the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
15:56:40 [glazou]: dsinger_: ok
15:56:55 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:56:55 [glazou]: dsinger_: could be a short call anyway
15:57:01 [Zakim]: +plinss
15:57:22 [Zakim]: +??P19
15:57:28 [glazou]: Zakim, ??P19 is me
15:57:30 [Zakim]: -plinss
15:57:32 [Zakim]: +plinss
15:57:38 [Zakim]: +glazou; got it
15:58:22 [florian]: florian has joined #css
15:58:25 [Zakim]: + +1.619.846.aaaa
15:58:27 [smfr]: smfr has joined #css
15:58:42 [hober]: Zakim, aaaa is me
15:58:59 [Zakim]: +??P8
15:59:09 [Zakim]: +hober; got it
15:59:11 [ChrisL]: ChrisL has joined #css
15:59:20 [florian]: Zakim, I am ??P8
15:59:35 [Zakim]: +florian; got it
15:59:37 [Zakim]: + +1.206.550.aabb
15:59:39 [Zakim]: + +1.206.324.aacc
15:59:44 [sylvaing]: Zakim, aacc is sylvaing
15:59:44 [Zakim]: +sylvaing; got it
15:59:47 [danielweck]: Dear CSS WG, I am only on IRC, no audio link.
15:59:49 [stearns]: Zakim, aabb is me
15:59:49 [Zakim]: +stearns; got it
15:59:52 [glazou]: danielweck: ok
15:59:56 [danielweck]: thx
16:00:07 [Cathy]: Cathy has joined #css
16:00:08 [Zakim]: +ChrisL
16:00:11 [glazou]: Zakim, mute glazou
16:00:12 [Zakim]: glazou should now be muted
16:00:20 [Zakim]: +??P26
16:00:22 [glazou]: Zakim, unmute glazou
16:00:22 [Zakim]: glazou should no longer be muted
16:00:30 [smfr]: sylvaing: see topic
16:00:41 [Zakim]: +Bert
16:00:44 [JohnJansen]: JohnJansen has joined #css
16:00:48 [glazou]: Zakim, who is on phone?
16:00:48 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, glazou.
16:00:52 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:00:54 [glazou]: Zakim, who is here?
16:00:54 [Zakim]: On the phone I see plinss, glazou, hober, florian, stearns, sylvaing, ChrisL, ??P26, Bert, [Microsoft] (muted)
16:01:00 [Zakim]: On IRC I see JohnJansen, Cathy, ChrisL, smfr, florian, dsinger_, myakura, sylvaing, antonp, miketayl_r, danielweck, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, lhnz, nimbupani, krijnh, Martijnc,
16:01:07 [Zakim]: ... stearns, arronei, plinss, Bert, shepazu, pjrm, hober, trackbot, gsnedders, TabAtkins, CSSWG_LogBot, ed, fantasai, Hixie
16:01:10 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft.a]
16:01:11 [arronei]: zakim, microsoft has me
16:01:11 [JohnJansen]: zakim, microsoft has johnjansen
16:01:12 [Zakim]: + +1.408.636.aadd
16:01:16 [Zakim]: + +1.215.286.aaee
16:01:17 [cesar]: cesar has joined #css
16:01:18 [smfr]: Zakim, aadd is me
16:01:24 [Zakim]: +arronei; got it
16:01:24 [fantasai]: Zakim, mute P26
16:01:28 [Zakim]: +johnjansen; got it
16:01:30 [Zakim]: +smfr; got it
16:01:30 [smfr]: Zakim had memory loss again
16:01:39 [miketaylr]: miketaylr has joined #css
16:01:40 [Zakim]: sorry, fantasai, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P26
16:01:42 [fantasai]: Zakim, mute ??P26
16:01:42 [kojiishi]: kojiishi has joined #css
16:01:48 [glazou]: Zakim, aaee is kimberlyblessing
16:01:58 [Zakim]: ??P26 should now be muted
16:02:02 [Zakim]: +kimberlyblessing; got it
16:02:08 [fantasai]: Zakim, ??P26 is fantasai
16:02:18 [Zakim]: +fantasai; got it
16:02:46 [Zakim]: + +975119aaff
16:02:50 [vhardy]: vhardy has joined #css
16:03:02 [Zakim]: + +1.415.832.aagg
16:03:04 [cesar]: zakim, aaff is me
16:03:06 [Zakim]: +cesar; got it
16:03:18 [dbaron]: dbaron has joined #css
16:03:35 [Zakim]: +??P43
16:03:47 [glazou]: vhardy: have you received the ENST call for 20th anniversary ?
16:03:57 [bradk]: bradk has joined #css
16:04:09 [howcome]: howcome has joined #css
16:04:27 [Zakim]: + +47.21.65.aahh
16:04:44 [antonp]: Zakim, ??P43 is me
16:04:44 [Zakim]: +antonp; got it
16:04:48 [Zakim]: + +1.650.275.aaii
16:05:01 [howcome]: zakim, aahh is me
16:05:03 [Zakim]: +howcome; got it
16:05:07 [bradk]: Zakim, aaii is me
16:05:10 [Zakim]: +bradk; got it
16:05:13 [Zakim]: +SteveZ
16:05:23 [fantasai]: ScribeNick: fantasai
16:05:30 [fantasai]: zakim, unmute me
16:05:30 [Zakim]: fantasai should no longer be muted
16:05:53 [fantasai]: glazou: Any other items?
16:06:12 [fantasai]: glazou: Publishing CSS3 Fonts
16:06:34 [fantasai]: ChrisL: I had asked for a publication a few weeks ago, and jdaggett said there were a few edits pending.
16:06:39 [Zakim]: +dbaron
16:06:41 [fantasai]: ChrisL: I agree with publishing
16:06:45 [fantasai]: Bert: publish
16:06:54 [fantasai]: fantasai: In favor
16:07:00 [Zakim]: +Cathy
16:07:01 [fantasai]: glazou: Hearing no objection.
16:07:08 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: Publish update to css3-fonts
16:07:12 [Zakim]: -Cathy
16:07:19 [fantasai]: ACTION Chris: prepare publication
16:07:19 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-366 - Prepare publication [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-10-05].
16:07:32 [fantasai]: glazou: Request from Dean to publish Transitions, Animations, and Transforms
16:07:45 [fantasai]: vhardy: Talked with Dean about this, [... merge document ... ]
16:07:56 [fantasai]: glazou: Are you saying Transitions and Animations are ok, but Transforms need more work?
16:07:59 [fantasai]: vhardy: Yes
16:08:05 [fantasai]: sylvaing: Merging 2D and 3D?
16:08:12 [fantasai]: vhardy: Yes. Also, work to make it work for both CSS and SVG
16:08:22 [fantasai]: ChrisL: .. FXTF ..
16:08:25 [Zakim]: +??P64
16:08:38 [kojiishi]: zakim, ??p64 is me
16:08:38 [Zakim]: +kojiishi; got it
16:08:49 [fantasai]: florian: At the F2F we agreed to merge, but didn't agree to block progress until the merge
16:09:11 [fantasai]: ChrisL: But if we agreed to merge, it'd be guiding people in the wrong direction to publish unmerged
16:09:26 [fantasai]: sylvaing: The only one reason to keep it split imo is because we have interop on a lot of the 2D stuff already
16:09:30 [fantasai]: sylvaing: if we want to unprefix
16:09:54 [fantasai]: smfr: It means that we snapshot the current //missed
16:10:01 [fantasai]: smfr: I'd like to publish 2D and 3D
16:10:02 [dbaron]: Whatever you say about publishing being misleading -- the current draft on the TR page is *more* misleading.
16:10:07 [Zakim]: +Cathy
16:10:17 [fantasai]: smfr: I see no harm in pushing to WD
16:10:28 [fantasai]: vhardy: I don't have a strong feeling about it
16:10:55 [fantasai]: dbaron: I think whatever you say about publishing being misleading, the drafts o nthe TR page right now are *more* misleading. There are errors that have been corrected since the last TR draft
16:11:22 [fantasai]: Florian: We can publish a draft with a note at the top saying that this is planned to be merged, so be careful
16:11:31 [fantasai]: smfr: suggests changelogs
16:11:52 [fantasai]: sylvaing: I was looking more for a Disposition of Comments thing, since there have been many changed
16:12:19 [glazou]: "whatever, r=me"
16:12:48 [fantasai]: fantasai: You can point to CVS logs if someone wants every detail, but you're better off just summarizing what the significant changes were
16:13:00 [fantasai]: sylvaing: Would be good to have, but not sure I'd hold up the publication for it
16:13:10 [fantasai]: sylvaing: There have been a lot of changes since the last publication
16:13:35 [fantasai]: glazou: Hearing group prefers to publish before merge, also that we'd prefer a changes section for all documents
16:13:46 [fantasai]: ChrisL: Also a note saying that the merge is happening
16:14:29 [sylvaing]: note that i don't necessarily need to see a change log/comment disposition in the spec; it can be a wiki issue page. As long as it's in a single spot i'm happy
16:14:35 [alexmog]: alexmog has joined #css
16:14:59 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: Publish Transitions, Animations, Transforms 2D, Transforms 3D, with merge note at top of Transforms.
16:15:36 [fantasai]: fantasai: Are we requiring the changes section here, or is it just a recommendation for the future?
16:15:51 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: Future documents need Changes sections before publication.
16:16:09 [fantasai]: Topic: column-span and margin-collapsing
16:16:35 [fantasai]: howcome: We're trying to solve some edge cases, not core multicol layout, but should resolve it anyway
16:16:41 [fantasai]: howcome: Tried to write down 3 options we have
16:16:57 [glazou]: http://www.w3.org/mid/CAAWBYDDsU4AbBk=g5bWQKN5aP9DqOHZW80VBbtXsWQsO7QvAOg@mail.gmail.com
16:17:19 [glazou]: http://www.w3.org/mid/20099.15290.322422.741716@gargle.gargle.HOWL
16:18:05 [fantasai]: howcome: One is fantasai's proposal -- spanners create an anonymous BFC, which allows margin collapsing as well as cross-spanner floats
16:18:11 [Zakim]: + +1.425.246.aajj
16:18:36 [alexmog]: zakim, aajj is me
16:18:36 [Zakim]: +alexmog; got it
16:18:42 [fantasai]: howcome: One is MS's proposal -- spanners are each BFCs, but their margins don't collapse
16:19:01 [fantasai]: howcome: Opera's behavior is that each is spanner is BFC, but margin collapsing is allowed between them
16:19:30 [fantasai]: alexmog: We're trying to solve a very specific case, and not trying to create something where colspans behave as a float
16:19:36 [fantasai]: alexmog: It's a workaround for ?
16:19:55 [fantasai]: alexmog: If what we want to have is that a number of spanners would be as if it wasn't in multicol, that would make much more sense
16:20:07 [fantasai]: alexmog: If you have content that wouldn't look like that in another browser, it would look like that in this case
16:20:14 [fantasai]: alexmog: Something in the middle, I'm really uncomfortable with that
16:20:25 [fantasai]: howcome: Have I written up the proposals correctly?
16:20:37 [glazou]: http://www.w3.org/mid/20099.15290.322422.741716@gargle.gargle.HOWL
16:20:53 [szilles]: szilles has joined #css
16:21:44 [fantasai]: TabAtkins, you didn't check floats behavior for WebKit, we need that info
16:22:17 [fantasai]: howcome: I would prefer Opera's solution, since it already states that spanners create BFCs, so it's most consistent.
16:22:38 [fantasai]: howcome: Second most consistent with current spec is MS
16:22:47 [fantasai]: howcome: fantasai's proposal would require most changes
16:23:40 [fantasai]: howcome: I checked WebKit and they do have cross-floats
16:24:05 [fantasai]: Florian: We should clarify the spec so we can all do the same thing instead of all different things
16:25:41 [Bert]: (I prefer: 1. fantasai, 2. Op,.... 9. MS.)
16:25:43 [fantasai]: fantasai: Mozilla hasn't implemented yet, probably ok with any of these
16:25:54 [fantasai]: fantasai: I think we should ask some authors for what they thing
16:26:10 [fantasai]: fantasai: It's a deeply technical issue to understand, but it has a significant impact on what they do and how they will use this feature
16:26:37 [fantasai]: fantasai: They care a lot about margins and spacing, if it's a few px off they're upset. They're going to be dealing with whatever behavior we decide
16:27:12 [fantasai]: howcome: I don't think authors care much about margin-collapsing, my priority is to make sure we all pass the test suite
16:27:35 [fantasai]: bradk: fantasai's proposal is closest to what we get with collapsing when no support for multicol
16:27:49 [fantasai]: alexmog: It's not just margin collapsing, but also cross-float interactions
16:27:55 [fantasai]: glazou: Sounds like everyone agrees we need more input
16:28:06 [fantasai]: glazou: howcome, you have action to post message to mailing list with request for help
16:28:38 [fantasai]: ACTION howcome: Post to mailing list asking for input on margin-collapsing col-span issue
16:28:38 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-367 - Post to mailing list asking for input on margin-collapsing col-span issue [on Håkon Wium Lie - due 2011-10-05].
16:28:43 [fantasai]: ACTION howcome: post testcase
16:28:43 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-368 - Post testcase [on Håkon Wium Lie - due 2011-10-05].
16:28:53 [fantasai]: glazou: If we could have the input for the F2F, that would be cool.
16:29:17 [fantasai]: glazou: Next topic is Tracking Animatable Properties
16:29:41 [glazou]: fantasai: yes please
16:29:45 [fantasai]: smfr: This came out of some emails on www-style about property lists for animatable stuff being incorrect
16:29:56 [fantasai]: smfr: The problem is we have one centralized list, it has to track everything that's changing
16:30:07 [fantasai]: smfr: Proposal is to move things into each property definition, whether it is animatable or not
16:30:17 [fantasai]: glazou: Animatable and transitionable, is it the same thing?
16:30:40 [fantasai]: smfr: Idea would be adding extra line to table to describe whether it's animatable and how it interpolates
16:31:04 [fantasai]: fantasai: would go in proptable.
16:31:15 [fantasai]: fantasai: Anne wanted a line for serialization order -- we can add both
16:31:22 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #css
16:31:49 [fantasai]: dbaron: The Transitions spec should define how each value type is animated, so they can link to that
16:32:04 [fantasai]: dbaron: Wrt serialization, maybe get further on how we want to define serialization
16:33:02 [fantasai]: dbaron: Transitions spec should list animatable properties for specs further ahead of it in the Process, e.g. 2.1
16:33:15 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: Add Animatable: line to propdef tables
16:33:56 [fantasai]: ACTION smfr: Create examples of Animatable: lines so we can put in template for copy/tweaking
16:33:56 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-369 - Create examples of Animatable: lines so we can put in template for copy/tweaking [on Simon Fraser - due 2011-10-05].
16:34:00 [glazou]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0182.html
16:34:01 [fantasai]: Topic: CSS Conditional
16:34:32 [dbaron]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0468.html
16:34:47 [glazou]: ok alexmog
16:34:51 [fantasai]: dbaron: I think it's a reasonable proposal, but I'm a little worried of what the effects are going to be.
16:35:11 [Zakim]: -alexmog
16:35:13 [fantasai]: dbaron: All of @supports has that worry, but I just worry that this might tend a bit too much towards accidentally writing something browser-specific.
16:35:32 [fantasai]: dbaron: once you have the thing, you tend to stick stuff in it, and then you wind up requiring more and more, even though it's not actually required
16:36:14 [fantasai]: fantasai: What about combining that with the !supports proposal from earlier? That way you'd have to mark what you're actually requiring, but you don't have to write it twice.
16:36:23 [fantasai]: dbaron: Mixed feelings about that syntax, but it doesn't have that problem.
16:36:42 [dbaron]: (I think it was !required at the time...)
16:37:02 [fantasai]: Florian: I completely see the worries you have about this 'all' thing, but at the same time from a coding point of view you get problem of things getting out-of-sync
16:37:07 [fantasai]: between body and @supports list
16:37:34 [fantasai]: fantasai: Don't see us coming up with a solution here, so let's kick back to mailing list
16:37:38 [fantasai]: glazou: So no resolution
16:37:52 [glazou]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0402.html
16:38:02 [fantasai]: Topic: New pseudo-class for CSS4-UI :drag-over
16:38:09 [fantasai]: glazou: Proposal to rename to :valid-drop-zone
16:38:36 [fantasai]: dbaron: That doesn't seem to imply there's something being dragged over it right now
16:38:55 [fantasai]: smfr: :valid-drop-target
16:39:05 [dbaron]: Florian: :active-drop-zone
16:39:06 [fantasai]: Florian: :active-drop-zone
16:39:16 [sylvaing]: :drop-zone-hover
16:39:20 [fantasai]: ChrisL: :active for links implies activation right now, not quite the same
16:39:52 [fantasai]: ChrisL: I can imagine things being considered an active drop zone without there being any mouse activity
16:40:11 [fantasai]: ChrisL: Do we want this specifically tied to mouse activity? Or not? Should be clear what we're targetting.
16:40:21 [fantasai]: hober: Tied to drag-n-drop
16:40:37 [fantasai]: smfr: Might be touch events, not just mouse events
16:40:52 [bradk]: :active-drag-target
16:41:04 [fantasai]: ChrisL: Right. <gives example>
16:41:15 [sylvaing]: bradk, should be drop-target imo...
16:42:01 [ChrisL]: :active-dragged
16:42:24 [bradk]: syvaing, yes, right. :active-drop-target
16:42:45 [fantasai]: fantasai tries to give an example of keyboard control of dragging things, but this seems not to be an example of drag-n-drop
16:42:49 [hober]: s/hober/???/
16:42:53 [bradk]: :active-dragged could be the thing you are dragging
16:42:53 [sylvaing]: :drop-focus ? The element current has focus for dropping purposes...
16:42:58 [ChrisL]: happy with . :active-drop-target too
16:44:03 [fantasai]: glazou: Seems we like :active-drop-target, but did not discuss proposal itself
16:44:15 [fantasai]: glazou: Does everyone agree we should have that in CSS4 UI?
16:44:23 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: Adopt :drag-over with some better kind of name
16:46:13 [ChrisL]: :schroedinger-drop
16:46:26 [fantasai]: fantasai: On the mailing list there was some discussion of having :drop-zone with :not(:drop-zone) vs :valid-drop-zone and :invalid-drop-zone with :not(:valid-drop-zone):not(:invalid-drop-zone) being neither
16:46:58 [fantasai]: smfr: Thinks its a platform difference, Apple we never show invalid drop targets, but some platforms might show targets differently if you can drop to them, but not with the thing you're dragging
16:47:10 [fantasai]: smfr: Would prefer to keep it simple and not have :valid vs. :invalid
16:47:45 [sylvaing]: :drop-bikeshedding
16:47:50 [fantasai]: glazou: In that case we should use :valid-drop-target, to keep that door open
16:47:59 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: Adopt as :valid-drop-target
16:48:15 [fantasai]: Topic: <em> and text-emphasis-style
16:48:31 [fantasai]: glazou: jdaggett suggested we should wait on this, since we don't have wide support for that yet
16:48:52 [fantasai]: Florian: That's quite reasonable. Italics look wrong in Japanese, but if half browsers are doing that and half not, that's not going to be interoperable
16:48:57 [sylvaing]: fwiw, to me :valid-drop-target does not imply the class applies only when something is dragged over it
16:49:12 [fantasai]: glazou: One cool thing, using @supports we can style <em> conditionally on support for text-emphasis-style
16:49:18 [sylvaing]: tabs vs. spaces ?
16:49:43 [danielweck]: danielweck has joined #css
16:50:27 [fantasai]: glazou: any other topics?
16:50:35 [fantasai]: fantasai: CSS Speech closing LC period in 2 days
16:50:54 [fantasai]: fantasai: dweck has started a Disposition of Comments on wiki
16:50:55 [fantasai]: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-speech
16:51:06 [fantasai]: fantasai: If no other issues come in, let's plan to adopt the DoC next week
16:51:13 [fantasai]: smfr: Apple has some comments, need to send them in
16:51:28 [fantasai]: glazou: anyone here implementing a voice browser?
16:51:36 [fantasai]: fantasai: Opera has some support for CSS Speech
16:52:11 [Zakim]: -kimberlyblessing
16:52:12 [Zakim]: -ChrisL
16:52:12 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
16:52:13 [Zakim]: -dbaron
16:52:13 [Zakim]: -antonp
16:52:15 [Zakim]: -SteveZ
16:52:15 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft.a]
16:52:15 [fantasai]: Meeting closed.
16:52:16 [Zakim]: -Cathy
16:52:18 [Zakim]: -hober
16:52:18 [antonp]: antonp has left #css
16:52:20 [Zakim]: -Bert
16:52:21 [cesar]: cesar has left #css
16:52:22 [Zakim]: -kojiishi
16:52:24 [Zakim]: -fantasai
16:52:26 [Zakim]: -stearns
16:52:28 [Zakim]: -sylvaing
16:52:30 [Zakim]: -howcome
16:52:32 [Zakim]: -plinss
16:52:34 [Zakim]: -bradk
16:52:36 [Zakim]: -cesar
16:52:53 [Zakim]: -florian
16:53:27 [Zakim]: -smfr
16:53:56 [fantasai]: Bert: Can you send a reminder to the WGs we pinged that there are 2 days left to either comment or request an extension?
16:54:42 [arronei]: arronei has joined #css
16:55:04 [Bert]: OK, will do.
16:58:21 [fantasai]: maybe also mention to the voice browser wg / Paul Bagshaw that Daniel Weck's response should be considered worthy of a reply if one is warranted -- not waiting for CSSWG to agree with him before replying. We've had this problem with other WGs before...
16:59:36 [Bert]: OK
17:00:58 [danielweck]: Fantasai said: "not waiting for CSSWG to agree with him before replying. We've had this problem with other WGs before..."
17:00:58 [danielweck]: Daniel asks: what do you mean exactly?
17:01:54 [florian]: florian has left #css
17:02:31 [dsinger]: dsinger has joined #css
17:15:37 [danielweck]: Oh I see, "him" is me (daniel), right?
17:17:55 [Bert]: Correct. It has happened in the past that somebody from the WG answered a comment on the mailing list and subsequently the WG concluded that that answer was in fact the WG's answer. But the WG only made that known in the disposition of comments, i.e., several weeks later. We should in general better inform the mailing list about what is an official WG answers and what an individual member's answer, even if that member is the editor.
17:19:02 [Zakim]: - +1.415.832.aagg
17:19:06 [Zakim]: -glazou
17:19:07 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:19:10 [Zakim]: Attendees were plinss, glazou, +1.619.846.aaaa, hober, florian, +1.206.550.aabb, +1.206.324.aacc, sylvaing, stearns, ChrisL, Bert, +1.408.636.aadd, +1.215.286.aaee, arronei,
17:19:15 [Zakim]: ... johnjansen, smfr, kimberlyblessing, fantasai, +975119aaff, +1.415.832.aagg, cesar, +47.21.65.aahh, antonp, +1.650.275.aaii, howcome, bradk, SteveZ, dbaron, Cathy, kojiishi,
17:19:17 [Zakim]: ... +1.425.246.aajj, alexmog
17:20:23 [danielweck]: Thanks Bert!
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22:55:04 [dbaron]: so we had all those discussions about the definition of blur radius a year or so ago
22:55:25 [dbaron]: there hasn't been a rush to implement them (I did... haven't checked if IE did)
22:55:39 [dbaron]: so I finally got around to writing a test:
22:55:41 [dbaron]: http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/mozilla/submitted/css3-background/box-shadow/box-shadow-blur-definition-001.xht
22:56:57 [fantasai]: cool
22:58:58 [dbaron]: just tweaked the wording
23:02:46 [dbaron]: hmmm, the previous version link in the editor's draft of css3-background is actually 2 versions back
23:06:45 [fantasai]: probably forgot to update it after the publication
23:07:16 [fantasai]: fixed
23:12:07 [fantasai]: stearns: You should post that question to www-style: what should happen when column-count: 2 and display: flexbox are set on the same element?
23:12:36 [fantasai]: stearns: I think it's a fair question, and probably should be equivalent to placing a flexbox inside a multicol element, except the box edges coincide
23:13:33 [stearns]: fantasai: it's answered in the spec - column-count computes to its initial value
23:13:59 [fantasai]: stearns: hm, in that case I'll want to file an issue on that.
23:14:04 [stearns]: :)
23:14:28 [fantasai]: stearns: I generally don't like it when one property overrides another unconditionally :)
23:14:31 [stearns]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/#display-flexbox
23:14:33 [fantasai]: stearns: Sometimes it's unavoidable
23:14:46 [fantasai]: stearns: But in this case... I think you'd have to implement the functionality anyway, if you implement both modules
23:18:01 [stearns]: fantasai: perhaps CSS3-flexbox could omit some things, but a CSS4-flexbox could address them?
23:18:18 [fantasai]: stearns: Generally, you can't change anything between levels
23:19:01 [fantasai]: stearns: you can add new functionality
23:19:10 [fantasai]: stearns: but you can't change existing behavior
23:19:17 [stearns]: fantasai: ah, ok
23:37:13 [fantasai]: stearns: That's why we call the Levels and not Versions :)
23:39:11 [stearns]: fantasai: so what's the mechanism for punt now, deal with it later? Say that flexbox and column interaction is undefined for now?
23:43:02 [fantasai]: stearns: Yes.
23:43:09 [fantasai]: stearns: But I don't think we can punt on something that major
23:43:39 [stearns]: fantasai: I'd rather have columns work, but I'm assuming it was an attempt to reduce complexity
23:44:02 [fantasai]: stearns: Yeah, probably.
23:44:03 [stearns]: fantasai: and I'm also assuming there's a good reason to omit floats
23:44:30 [fantasai]: stearns: If you have use cases for flexbox and multi-col, I'd love to hear about them, just to understand the situation better :)
23:44:42 [fantasai]: stearns: wrt floats .... that's an easy one to answer :)
23:44:56 [fantasai]: stearns: A flexbox creates a BFC, which means that no floats outside it can intrude into it
23:45:44 [fantasai]: stearns: There was a decision that flexbox items can't float within the flexbox (which I agree with, it'd be crazy if they could)
23:45:58 [stearns]: fantasai: yeah, that makes sense
23:45:59 [fantasai]: stearns: So at that point neither floats nor clears can have any effect within the flexbox
23:46:24 [stearns]: fantasai: on columns, if you're using flexbox to lay out a web app UI, I can see ignoring multicol
23:46:26 [fantasai]: stearns: Flexbox items are also BFCs, and if they contain block layout, then there can be floats inside them; but those floats can't affect anything outside
23:47:28 [stearns]: fantasai: but if you're using flexbox to lay out a content page, then I could see wanting to use multicol
23:47:47 [fantasai]: stearns: got a more specific example?
23:47:50 [stearns]: fantasai: but perhaps you'd just add a multicol child to the flexbox child
23:48:54 [fantasai]: not that I disagree we should investigate this, but I'm having a hard time imagining what to use it for
23:49:06 [fantasai]: though I suspect it would be useful
23:49:54 [stearns]: fantasai: let me think a bit - I'll post to www-style if I come up with something
23:50:03 [fantasai]: cool