14:59:43 RRSAgent has joined #webevents 14:59:43 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/27-webevents-irc 14:59:49 ssharma2 has joined #webevents 14:59:49 RRSAgent, make log Public 14:59:59 ScribeNick: ArtB 14:59:59 Scribe: Art 14:59:59 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0082.html 14:59:59 Date: 27 September 2011 14:59:59 Chair: Art 14:59:59 Meeting: Web Events WG Voice Conference 15:00:19 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:00:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/27-webevents-minutes.html ArtB 15:00:33 + +1.408.653.aaaa 15:00:40 RRSAgent, make log Public 15:00:56 zakim, who is here? 15:00:56 On the phone I see [Mozilla], +1.408.653.aaaa 15:01:02 On IRC I see ssharma2, RRSAgent, Zakim, ArtB, smaug, shepazu, mbrubeck, scottmg, ted_, trackbot 15:01:06 zakim, [Mozilla] is Ted_Mielczarek 15:01:12 +Ted_Mielczarek; got it 15:01:22 + +1.206.792.aabb 15:01:27 Zakim, aabb is me 15:01:40 +mbrubeck; got it 15:01:41 + +1.781.993.aacc 15:01:41 zakim, who is here? 15:01:53 zakim, aacc is Art_Barstow 15:01:56 +??P34 15:01:58 zakim: nick ted_ is Ted_Mielczarek 15:01:59 On the phone I see Ted_Mielczarek, +1.408.653.aaaa, mbrubeck, +1.781.993.aacc, ??P34 15:02:02 Cathy has joined #webevents 15:02:05 Zakim, ??P34 is Olli_Pettay 15:02:14 Present+ Cathy_Chan 15:02:15 +Art_Barstow; got it 15:02:25 aaaa is ne 15:02:26 Regrets: Dzung_Tran, Sangwhan_Moon 15:02:28 Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay 15:02:31 On IRC I see ssharma2, RRSAgent, Zakim, ArtB, smaug, shepazu, mbrubeck, scottmg, ted_, trackbot 15:02:37 +Olli_Pettay; got it 15:02:51 ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay 15:03:21 Suman Sharma 15:03:45 Present: Art_Barstow, Cathy_Chan, Matt_Brubeck, Ted_Mielczarek, Olli_Pettay, Suman_Sharma, Doug_Schepers 15:04:05 Topic: Tweak Agenda 15:04:11 AB: I submitted a draft agenda on September 26 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0082.html. Any change requests? I think it makes sense to combine Issue-21 and Issue-22 as one topic. We can talk about charter update during AoB. 15:04:29 Zakim, aaaa is Suman_Sharma 15:04:29 +Suman_Sharma; got it 15:04:38 Zakim, nick ssharma2 is Suman_Sharma 15:04:38 ok, mbrubeck, I now associate ssharma2 with Suman_Sharma 15:04:45 Zakim, mbrubeck is really Matt_Brubeck 15:04:45 +Matt_Brubeck; got it 15:04:53 AB: any change requests for the agenda? 15:04:53 Zakim, nick mbrubeck is Matt_Brubeck 15:04:53 ok, mbrubeck, I now associate you with Matt_Brubeck 15:04:54 [None] 15:05:01 Topic: Announcements 15:05:11 AB: reminder our f2f meeting at the annual TPAC meeting week is November 1 and the registration deadline is October 14 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0079.html . 15:05:34 AB: if we do meet that day - and at the moment it is not clear if we will need to meet - it will only be in the morning (09:00-12:00 SFO time zone) and we will have a voice conference bridge for remote attendees. 15:05:45 +Doug_Schepers 15:06:50 AB: there is no requirement to come to the f2f meeting 15:07:06 AB: we have Suman joining us from Intel 15:07:22 SS: I work for Intel 15:07:43 … my group is interested in home related standards 15:07:56 … I attend other standards meeting 15:08:06 … f.ex. Khronos 15:08:18 DS: welcome; nice to have you on board 15:08:28 … it would be good to have a Khronos connection 15:08:36 Suman: I will definitely help as needed 15:08:53 AB: are you in same group as Tran? 15:09:00 Suman: no, he is in PC group 15:09:15 AB: welcome to the group! 15:09:32 … I have an action related to following up with Khronos so I'll contact you about that 15:09:49 AB: any other announcements for today? 15:10:01 DS: I published a new draft of the charter 15:10:07 http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/charter/2011/Overview.html 15:10:12 … that includes Mouse Lock and Gamepad 15:10:25 AB: we will take that during AoB. Thanks! 15:10:42 Topic: Touch Events v1 LCWD TE 15:10:50 AB: reminder that October 11 is the comment deadline for the TE v1 LCWD http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-touch-events-20110913/. We are doing a good job of addressing comments as they come in (i.e. not waiting until after the comment deadline). 15:11:16 AB: one administrivia issue is the LC Comment tracking document. I propose using a wiki http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0058.html . Any objections to that? 15:11:36 DS: why not use tracker? 15:11:43 AB: I find wiki easier 15:11:45 DS: OK 15:12:04 AB: I don't object to using Tracker 15:12:20 … but if we agree to use a wiki I'll take an action to create it and seed it 15:12:28 AB: any objections to using a wiki? 15:12:37 [None] 15:12:55 ACTION: barstow create a wiki to track comments for the TE v1 LCWD 15:12:55 Created ACTION-76 - Create a wiki to track comments for the TE v1 LCWD [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-10-04]. 15:13:08 AB: Issue-19: Align initTouchEvent parameters with Webkit; any feedback from Webkit community? http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/19 15:13:33 AB: I note Laszlo isn't here today 15:13:53 … Does anyone know if there has been any related discussion by the Webkit community? 15:14:11 [Silence] 15:14:20 AB: we will continue this next meeting ... 15:14:33 Topic: ISSUE-23: Add a DOM4-style constructor to create and initialize TouchEvent objects 15:14:41 AB: Issue-23 is a result of comments from Anne http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/23 . 15:14:50 AB: we talked about this last week and agreed then to keep initTouchEvent method in v1 http://www.w3.org/2011/09/20-webevents-minutes.html#item03. Since then, Matt and Anne had some followups http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0077.html 15:14:55 agend+ IE10 Touch support https://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2011/09/20/touch-input-for-ie10-and-metro-style-apps.aspx 15:15:07 agenda+ IE10 Touch support https://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2011/09/20/touch-input-for-ie10-and-metro-style-apps.aspx 15:15:38 AB: so where are we with this? 15:15:53 MB: Anne thinks there is no good reason to include initTouchEvent in v1 15:15:58 … I tend to agree with him 15:16:19 … I know Doug and Olli want to keep it 15:16:22 q+ 15:16:28 … I think we others to reply to Anne 15:16:44 … I didn't need it for my tests 15:17:01 DS: Matt, are your tests manual? 15:17:18 … or automatic 15:17:22 MB: they are manual 15:17:43 DS: previous feedback is that we want to move to automatic tests if possible 15:18:06 I think even if we do write automated tests, they will be very limited in what they can test. 15:18:18 DS: is there an analog in existing impls? 15:18:19 MB: no 15:18:44 DS: does WK have initTouchEvent today? 15:18:48 MB: yes, it does 15:19:03 … although WK's interface is different then the LCWD 15:19:15 … it includes some additional params 15:19:31 DS: and you don't think they will change their behavior? 15:19:46 MB: we are still waiting for feedback from the WK community 15:19:57 DS: I understand the approach 15:20:27 … but I also am concerned their is a widely implemented replacement, I have reservations about removing it 15:20:36 … I don't want to stand in the way 15:21:12 AB: would this mean TE v1 spec would have a dependency on DOM4? 15:21:17 DS: not necessarily 15:21:38 … we could just define initializer/constructor that exists in DOM4 15:21:52 … because DOM4 isn't likely to be done for a couple of years 15:22:04 … and if DOM4 then changes, we can make a revision 15:22:22 … I think future specs will match the more general behavior 15:22:39 … It would mean we need to go back to LC, I think 15:22:47 … Do you agree Matt? 15:23:05 MB: it would significantly lengthen the time to get v1 to REC 15:23:50 … We want to move fwd with a constructor we need for testing and will then deprecate it 15:23:59 DS: I think it can be used for other purposes 15:24:19 MB: it has been in WK since 2007 but I have seen no code in the wild that uses it 15:24:39 … If someone has some data shows it is being used, I'd like to see it 15:24:49 … ATM, only Gecko follows the spec 15:24:56 DS: does anyone else have an opinion? 15:25:14 here we have a test using initTouchEvent :p http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/events/test/test_bug648573.html?force=1#60 15:25:28 MB: if we want to take v1 fwd to match existing impls 15:26:33 [ Scribe missed some stuff so we pause while Matt enters his comments in IRC … ] 15:27:11 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:27:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/27-webevents-minutes.html ArtB 15:27:22 then we have two options: specify initTouchEvent as implemented in WebKit (with WebKit-only gesture parameters, etc.), or leave it out of v1. 15:27:40 If we are willing to wait longer on making v1 a Recommendation, then we have more options. 15:28:22 DS: it would mean we would need to back to LC (if the function is removed) 15:28:31 … we kinda' knew that 15:28:39 … as we talked about it before 15:28:49 … The 2nd LC would only be 3 weeks 15:29:03 … I think we need a discussion on the list 15:29:23 … Some people may object to us not having a constructor at all 15:29:31 … We don't want to keep bouncing back and forth 15:29:44 AB: I agree we need more discussion on the list 15:30:16 … do we need a new thread? or can we use the thread with Anne? 15:30:29 DS: we need to be clear about our proposal 15:30:42 … so we get a sense if there will be any objections 15:30:51 … We need to be clear on why we want to remove it 15:31:03 … and the implications of doing so 15:31:51 AB: would be good if someone could start a thread about this 15:32:03 … Are there any volunteers? 15:32:21 MB: I can respond on the ongoing thread 15:32:36 … I know Olli may have some feedback 15:32:41 … As well as others 15:32:48 OP: we need something for testing 15:33:14 MB: another question is how imp is it to finalize v1 as a REC as soon as we can? 15:33:39 … if we are willing to take longer, we aren't as constrained by existing impls 15:33:48 DS: I'd like to go REC as soon as we can 15:33:55 MB: why is that Doug? 15:34:11 DS: the patent commitments don't start until a spec reaches REC 15:34:27 … and that gives implementers more "confidence" re the patent risks 15:34:43 … but we also understand some implementers don't care about patent issues 15:35:03 … Some members want specs to proceed as chartered 15:35:16 … It would show we can make progress on something 15:35:30 … which is good for setting expectations 15:35:42 MB: ok; got it 15:36:12 AB: as a wrap up for today, Matt agreed to respond on the list 15:36:21 … is there anything else for this today? 15:36:36 … I think this is the most critical issue that has been so far 15:36:50 … So we need to think it through and get feedback 15:37:01 DS: removing eliminates two issues 15:37:20 … the Issue Laszlo has with his WK patch 15:37:58 … and might stop us from having to do the deprecation of initTouchEvent 15:38:24 … Certainly for v2 we need a more solid constructor function 15:38:36 … And doing the removal would get us to REC faster 15:38:48 Topic: Issue-21 and Issue 22 15:38:57 AB: Issue 21 is "Description of touchcancel event is missing some details" and it originates from one of Cathy's LC comments http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/21 . Matt and Cathy have related Action-72 and Action-73 http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/72 ; http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/73 15:39:17 AB: Issue 22 is "Does an element have to also register for touchstart event in order to receive touchend/touchmove events" http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/22 and Cathy has related Action-72 http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/72 15:39:36 AB: yesterday Cathy submitted proposed text to address both of these issues http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0083.html. 15:39:53 AB: the proposal is to change text in 4 sections. 15:40:38 MB: I haven't looked at the proposal yet 15:41:14 CC: there are two issues 15:41:25 … touchcancel description is missing some details 15:41:58 … to address this, I suggest a change to some existing text 15:42:33 … and also add a new paragraph in section 5.7 (touchcancel event) 15:43:39 … I also propose changing touchend and touchmove text to clarify 15:43:52 … (those are the 2nd and 3rd changes in my email) 15:44:13 AB: any comments? 15:44:52 … please review Cathy's proposed changes and send comments to the list 15:45:14 MB: at a first glance, they look good to me. Thanks Cathy! 15:45:19 DS: yes, thanks Cathy 15:45:52 AB: do we want to set a deadline for comments and if there are no comments, we consider them acceptable? 15:45:58 DS: yes, that's fine by me 15:46:50 AB: I propose then that if no one raises any issues by 12:00 Boston time on Friday Sept 30, we consider the changes acceptable 15:46:59 … any objections to that? 15:47:04 [ None ] 15:47:36 AB: Cathy agreed to make the changes if that's OK. 15:47:44 … Is that agreeable? 15:47:47 DS: fine with me 15:47:52 MB: ok with me 15:48:14 Topic: Testing Touch Events 15:48:39 AB: Olli reported on the list he hasn't done action-74 so we'll skip this topic today 15:48:48 Topic: Any Other Business (AOB) 15:48:55 AB: re adding Gamepad API and Mouse Lock API to our charter, Doug has a Draft charter that includes these two APIs http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/charter/2011/Overview.html. 15:49:16 AB: thanks Doug! 15:49:28 … Did you make any changes to section 1.? 15:50:28 DS: yes, to add Lock and Gamepad, I needed to create some subsections 15:50:43 … so the Touch Interfaces is now its own section (1.1) 15:51:05 … I added the new specs to the Deliverables section 15:51:42 AB: any comments? 15:51:49 AB: this looks great 15:52:03 I had a quick read, looks good to me 15:52:14 … the Intentional Events is missing from the Deliverables 15:52:41 DS: until we get something from P&F WG, not sure we have anything to add 15:52:50 … I'll need to talk to them 15:53:25 AB: this is an interesting question 15:53:38 … don't think we need to block re Intentional Events 15:54:13 DS: I'll add it to deliverables 15:54:48 Suman: re games, what about depth camera? 15:54:57 DS: that is out of scope 15:55:32 … we need to be careful about adding specs in areas where there are patent concerns 15:55:48 … since that can prevent some Members from joining this WG 15:56:02 … And I would like to get more Members involved 15:56:09 Suman: ok; thanks for that information 15:57:13 … A lot of the important players are small and not W3C Members 15:58:17 DS: other than IP concerns, I think we should also try to keep a relatively narrow focus 15:58:34 Ted: yes, I agree with keeping the scope relatively narrow 15:59:04 DS: we also don't want to add deliverables without editors and a draft spec 15:59:25 … we can also recharter at some other time e.g. 6 months from now 15:59:55 … Let's talk about depth offline 16:01:50 AB: I'll respond and ask people to send comments 16:02:02 … what is next? 16:02:13 DS: I need to get some internal W3C review 16:03:02 … I can try to expedite the review 16:03:22 AB: I would like the AC review of the charter to start before the AC meeting on Nov 1 16:04:23 DS: I'll work toward getting an AC review as soon as I can 16:05:30 AB: anything else on the charter? 16:05:49 DS: Microsoft has implemented some touch intentional events 16:05:54 https://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2011/09/20/touch-input-for-ie10-and-metro-style-apps.aspx 16:06:07 http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/ie/hh272903.aspx#_DOMTouch 16:06:10 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:06:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/27-webevents-minutes.html ArtB 16:06:30 DS: it's unfortunate they didn't participate in our Touch Events spec 16:06:42 … I think there will be some interop issues 16:06:59 … It's simple but perhaps too simple 16:07:05 … They did prefix their events 16:07:11 … Perhaps later we can converge 16:07:40 AB: I think that gives us an action to followup with Microsoft 16:07:51 AB: next call is October 4, if there is sufficient topics. 16:08:04 AB: meeting adjourned 16:08:11 -Suman_Sharma 16:08:12 -Olli_Pettay 16:08:13 -Doug_Schepers 16:08:18 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:08:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/27-webevents-minutes.html ArtB 16:08:23 -Art_Barstow 16:08:27 -Ted_Mielczarek 16:08:48 -Matt_Brubeck 16:08:50 RWC_WebEven()11:00AM has ended 16:08:51 Attendees were +1.408.653.aaaa, Ted_Mielczarek, +1.206.792.aabb, +1.781.993.aacc, Art_Barstow, Olli_Pettay, Suman_Sharma, Matt_Brubeck, Doug_Schepers 16:09:35 zakim, bye 16:09:35 Zakim has left #webevents 16:16:28 RRSAgent, bye 16:16:28 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/27-webevents-actions.rdf : 16:16:28 ACTION: barstow create a wiki to track comments for the TE v1 LCWD [1] 16:16:28 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/27-webevents-irc#T15-12-55