15:00:26 RRSAgent has joined #webevents 15:00:26 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/20-webevents-irc 15:00:49 Zakim, what conference is this? 15:00:49 no conference has been selected, mbrubeck 15:00:58 Zakim, what conferences do you see? 15:00:58 I see WAI_UAWG(CHAIRS)10:30AM, RWC_WebEven()11:00AM, XML_ET-TF()11:00AM, WAI_PFWG(HTML_TF)11:00AM, WS_SOAP-JM()10:00AM, SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM active 15:01:01 also scheduled at this time are I18N_ITS IG()11:00AM, SW_RIF()11:00AM, T&S_XMLSEC()10:00AM, SW_HCLS(COI)11:00AM, VB_VBWG()10:00AM 15:01:08 trackbot, start telcon 15:01:09 Zakim, this will be RWC_WebEven 15:01:09 ok, ArtB, I see RWC_WebEven()11:00AM already started 15:01:10 RRSAgent, make logs world 15:01:13 Zakim, this will be event 15:01:13 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 15:01:13 Meeting: Web Events Working Group Teleconference 15:01:14 Date: 20 September 2011 15:01:23 ScribeNick: ArtB 15:01:23 Scribe: Art 15:01:23 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0067.html 15:01:23 Date: 20 September 2011 15:01:23 Chair: Art 15:01:24 Meeting: Web Events WG Voice Conference 15:01:24 Cathy has joined #webevents 15:01:32 RRSAgent, make log Public 15:01:34 Zakim, who is here? 15:01:34 I notice RWC_WebEven()11:00AM has restarted 15:01:35 On the phone I see mbrubeck, +1.503.712.aaaa, scottmg, Doug_Schepers 15:01:37 On IRC I see Cathy, RRSAgent, Zakim, scottmg_, Dzung_Tran, ArtB, ted_, smaug, mbrubeck, shepazu, scottmg, trackbot, lgombos 15:01:39 +??P19 15:01:39 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:01:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/20-webevents-minutes.html ArtB 15:01:50 +Cathy 15:01:51 Zakim, ??P19 is Olli_Pettay 15:01:54 +Olli_Pettay; got it 15:01:59 Present+ Cathy_Chan 15:02:00 Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay 15:02:10 ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay 15:02:32 +Art_Barstow 15:02:39 +[Mozilla] 15:03:03 ted_: are you [Mozilla] ? 15:03:14 uh, probably? 15:03:19 i dialed in from our asterix 15:03:26 Zakim, who is making noise? 15:03:29 or did mbrubeck call in? 15:03:37 mbrubeck, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 8 (33%), Art_Barstow (13%) 15:03:37 Zakim: [Mozilla] is Ted_Mielczarek 15:03:49 Zakim, [Mozilla] is Ted_Mielczarek 15:03:49 +Ted_Mielczarek; got it 15:03:52 Zakim: nick ted_ is Ted_Mielczarek 15:04:12 Zakim nick ted_ is Ted_Mielczarek 15:04:17 mbrubeck: figures 15:04:17 Present: Art_Barstow, Olli_Pettay, Dzung_Tran, Ted_Mielczarek, Doug_Schepers, Scott_Graham 15:04:20 Zakim, nick ted_ is Ted_Mielczarek 15:04:20 ok, mbrubeck, I now associate ted_ with Ted_Mielczarek 15:04:28 Present+ Matt_Brubeck 15:04:34 Zakim, who is here? 15:04:34 On the phone I see mbrubeck, +1.503.712.aaaa, scottmg, Doug_Schepers, Olli_Pettay, Cathy, Art_Barstow, Ted_Mielczarek 15:04:36 On IRC I see Cathy, RRSAgent, Zakim, scottmg_, Dzung_Tran, ArtB, ted_, smaug, mbrubeck, shepazu, scottmg, trackbot, lgombos 15:04:53 Topic: Tweak Agenda 15:05:00 AB: yesterday I submitted a draft agenda to the list <>. Any change requests? 15:05:13 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0067.html 15:05:49 Topic: Announcements 15:05:58 AB: any short announcements today? 15:06:05 Topic: Comments on TE v1 LC 15:06:12 AB: the TE LC is http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-Touch-Events-20110913/ 15:06:19 Present+ Cathy_Chan 15:06:29 AB: have the Editors decided on a LC Comment tracking document? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0058.html 15:07:01 MB: no 15:07:13 AB: have the Editors decided on a LC Comment tracking document? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0058.html 15:07:34 AB: has there been any feedback from the Webkit community on Issue-19 http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/19 "Align initTouchEvent parameters with Webkit"? 15:07:53 DS: Laszlo sent an email 15:08:03 AB: does anyone know if there were any responses? 15:08:23 … let's continue. I'll ask Laszlo 15:08:27 AB: we received some LC comments from Anne van Kestern on 13-Sep-2011 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0053.html 15:09:00 AB: are there some issues we should discuss? 15:09:12 MB: yes, we should open an issue for AvK's comments 15:09:23 … I also got some related feedback from Mozilla 15:09:36 … there is a general precedence for dictionary use 15:09:40 … rather than long lists 15:09:54 DS: but we specified what exists today 15:09:58 MB: well, almost 15:10:04 … but we also have Issue-19 15:10:17 DS: I think the constructor is a good way forward 15:10:29 … I tried to do that for D3E but couldn't get support for it 15:10:41 … However, I don't think it reflects reality today 15:11:01 … The question is if we want the spec to wait for a larger number of impls to follow that 15:11:12 … or do we specify what has already been deployed 15:11:16 … I think the later 15:11:26 MB: agree v1 should be what we want today 15:11:44 … but we want to get alignment 15:12:00 … Laszlo hasn't been able to get anyone to comment on his patch 15:12:12 … So we don't know if Webkit is going to change their impl to match our spec 15:12:23 MB: there is an issue about what to do for v2 15:12:31 … WK has 2 additional params 15:12:41 … they don't cause a prob for v1 since they trail 15:12:52 … but it could get ugly when people want to extend it 15:13:38 OP: we need to have a way to initialize the event 15:13:45 … needed for testing 15:13:52 … could rely on DOM4 15:14:01 http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/20 makes this a problem again for Touch Events v2 15:14:06 … but that could create a reference dependency that would be an issue 15:14:14 … with v1 going to REC 15:14:18 DS: good point 15:14:31 … I would prefer a "quick victory" and move fwd 15:14:43 … What if we drop the params? 15:14:58 MB: we can either specify what is exactly in WK 15:15:06 … and change spec to match WK 15:15:35 DS: and then in v2 we go with the new constructor/initialize 15:16:06 MB: option #2 is to not specify initialization in v1 15:16:10 DS: I don't like that 15:16:22 OP: that would create a problem with testing 15:17:17 AB: we need to capture AvK's comments; do we want an issue too? 15:17:19 MB: yes 15:18:45 ISSUE: Add a DOM4-style constructor to create and initialize TouchEvent objects. 15:18:45 Created ISSUE-23 - Add a DOM4-style constructor to create and initialize TouchEvent objects. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/23/edit . 15:18:57 OP: Apple's inittouchevent is different then what's in WK 15:19:12 http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/dom/TouchEvent.idl vs http://developer.apple.com/library/safari/#documentation/UserExperience/Reference/TouchEventClassReference/TouchEvent/TouchEvent.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40009358 15:19:53 AB: is there anything else from Anne's comments for today? 15:20:14 MB: there is another issue 15:20:21 … it's about document touch interface 15:20:37 … I think his proposal makes sense 15:20:42 … Are there any objections? 15:20:45 'Instead of introducing a new interface called DocumentTouch please use "partial interface Document" instead to extend the Document interface. You need to add a reference here too for Document. ' 15:21:23 AB: Matt, did you respond to that part of AvK's comment? 15:21:28 MB: no 15:21:50 AB: please do so and if no one objects to your proposal, then let's do it 15:22:08 AB: on September 15 we received some "table for each touch event type" from Greg Dennis http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0065.html 15:22:34 AB: so far no followup 15:22:43 DS: I think the table in question is non-normative 15:23:00 … we could add it without any change to normative text 15:23:14 AB: any other comments or opinons? 15:23:26 … any disagreements with what Doug said 15:23:55 … Can you Doug please respond to Dennis and say that's a reasonable thing and we'll do it? 15:23:57 DS: yes 15:24:20 Topic: Issue-22: Does an element have to also register for touchstart event in order to receive touchend/touchmove events 15:24:30 AB: Issue-22 http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/22 was created based on comments from Cathy. Anders responded to this issue with some implementation data http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0068.html. 15:25:16 AB: any followups on what Anders presented? 15:25:49 … I presume we want to follow the current deployments as much as possible 15:26:24 CC: I haven't read Anders' email yet 15:26:54 … it appears most impls send touchend and touchcancel if touchstart is not sent 15:27:19 … I did some testing on Safari 15:27:32 … I think we need some wording changes 15:27:45 … The text should match what has been implemented 15:28:11 AB: would you Cathy make a proposal for the text changes to address Issue-22? 15:28:16 CC: yes, I can do that 15:28:31 ACTION: cathy create a proposal to address Issue-22 15:28:32 Created ACTION-71 - Create a proposal to address Issue-22 [on Cathy Chan - due 2011-09-27]. 15:29:01 Topic: Issue-21: Description of touchcancel event is missing some details 15:29:02 hah 15:29:10 AB: Issue-21 http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/21 was created based on comments from Cathy. 15:29:16 AB: is this mainly about the spec being a bit under-specified? What's it going to take to address this issue? Is some additional testing needed? 15:29:58 MB: I think we just have some underspecification here 15:30:17 AB: would you Cathy make a proposal? 15:30:36 CC: yes, I can do that but last time Matt suggested some testing is needed 15:30:43 … not sure how to test it 15:30:54 … I can propose the text change 15:31:03 … but we need to make sure it matches impls 15:31:21 ACTION: matt produce a test to help us address Issue-21 15:31:21 Created ACTION-72 - Produce a test to help us address Issue-21 [on Matt Brubeck - due 2011-09-27]. 15:31:34 ACTION: cathy propose text to address Issue-21 15:31:34 Created ACTION-73 - Propose text to address Issue-21 [on Cathy Chan - due 2011-09-27]. 15:31:40 AB: thanks Cathy and Matt! 15:31:55 Topic: Testing Touch Events 15:32:05 AB: last week Tran agreed to ACTION-66: Create multitouch test cases for the Touch Events spec http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/66. 15:32:22 AB: what's the status Tran? 15:32:29 DT: I haven't done anything yet 15:32:37 … I'd like Olli to take the lead 15:32:45 … and then I can follow his lead 15:32:56 OP: yes, I can create some tests 15:33:11 ACTION: Olli create some multitouch test cases 15:33:12 Created ACTION-74 - Create some multitouch test cases [on Olli Pettay - due 2011-09-27]. 15:33:39 DT: as soon as Olli has something, I can start my tests 15:33:49 Topic: Joystick API 15:33:56 AB: as I mentioned last week http://www.w3.org/2011/09/13-webevents-minutes.html#item07, Doug and I will move forward with the process of formally adding this spec to our charter. I invited Mozilla's TedM to the call but didn't hear from him http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2011Sep/0011.html. 15:34:28 AB: make a correction here, Ted is on the call 15:34:52 Ted: I work for Mozilla 15:35:01 … I've been writing some patches 15:35:11 … been discussing with Webkit and Chrome teams 15:35:26 … our spec is still experimental 15:35:34 … Olli and Matt suggested I join the call 15:35:43 … Re renaming the API 15:35:50 … I really do mean "joystick" 15:36:05 … I think game controller is too general 15:36:26 DS: would this cover things like Wii modes 15:36:29 … or Kinect? 15:36:38 s/Wii modes/Wiimotes/ 15:37:14 Ted: want to stay with devices like joystick 15:37:32 SG: Wiimotes gets toward gestures 15:37:51 Ted: agree we should be careful about scope 15:38:31 DS: there is some work @ W3C on accelerometers 15:38:44 Ted: you mean Device Orientation stuff? 15:38:46 DS: yes 15:38:47 t 15:38:49 tted 15:38:50 er 15:39:08 ted_: you should discuss with dougt 15:39:10 Ted: there is some related data 15:39:26 … agree we should do some coordination 15:39:42 DS: perhaps use "game pad" rather than joystick 15:40:00 … the name will invoke concerns if we use "game controller" 15:40:16 … Think we should define the devices we want to cover 15:40:25 Ted: in Linux, joystick is used 15:40:36 … game pad would cover what we care about 15:40:57 DS: I don't think Nitendo is a W3C member 15:41:50 s/Nitendo/Nintendo/ 15:42:11 DT: are we going to look at TV remote? 15:42:15 … or is that out of scope 15:42:25 SG: what do you mean by TV remote? 15:42:35 DT: there are some remote protocols 15:42:38 s/game pad would cover what we care about/game pad would cover what we care about, buttons and multiple accellerometers per device 15:42:53 … can be used with IPTV 15:43:00 DS: I think the are different 15:43:08 s/the are/they are/ 15:43:42 … game controllers typically don't manage TVs 15:43:57 … D3E does treat remote controllers differently 15:44:08 … not sure there is anything we need to do there 15:44:14 -mbrubeck 15:44:18 … D3E treats them as keyboards 15:44:36 Ted: in the interest of tight scope, think we should leave them out 15:44:42 DS: agree with Ted 15:45:05 SG: agree it's a different UC 15:45:17 AB: there is a Web and TV IG @ the W3C 15:45:37 … and they may have an opinon on what we should or should not do in this space 15:45:54 DS: yes and they are meeting in a WS now in Hollywood 15:46:06 AB: regarding the next steps for this API, my recommendation is that until this spec is formally added to the  charter that we use the list for all discussions. We 15:46:29 … could also get Scott set up with a Mercurial/Hg location to put a draft. 15:46:44 … and of course we can the same for Ted 15:47:03 SG: I'm willing to help 15:47:09 Ted: I would prefer to co-edit 15:47:25 Ted: I have a pretty good idea about what I want 15:47:29 … to see in the spec 15:48:05 SG: I'm having a prob landing a patch because there isn't a spec 15:48:13 DS: so you need a spec? 15:48:23 (that is surprising given some other code landing to webkit) 15:48:25 SG: yes, I do; but we are on the right path 15:48:56 AB: is there an action for Doug to get these guys Mercurial access? 15:49:04 SG: yes, I think so 15:49:41 AB: should it go in the webevents directory? 15:49:47 DS: yes, I think that makes sense 15:50:15 AB: I think Ted and Scott just need W3C accounts 15:50:22 SG: I have an account 15:50:30 Ted: I don't know if I have a W3C account 15:50:58 DS: it's pretty simple; I'll get the link 15:51:01 http://www.w3.org/Help/Account/Request/Public 15:51:30 http://www.w3.org/Help/Account/Request/Member 15:51:54 AB: let's plan to use the list for discussions 15:52:08 … and Doug and I will push the formal charter changes 15:52:38 DS: it would be really helpful to have a clear scope section 15:52:43 … and some UCs and Reqs 15:52:53 AB: Ted and Scott, what do you think? 15:53:04 SG: yes, I can look into that 15:53:42 AB: ideally, Scott and Ted, we would be able to justifiy this API without actually changing the scope text in our charter 15:54:27 … and I think Doug is also asking for a scope section in the spec itself 15:54:34 DS: yes, that's true 15:54:47 … re the charter, I think the scoping will need to change somewhat 15:55:17 … Probably just needs a short overview 15:55:36 AB: OK 15:55:51 http://www.w3.org/mid/4E78AEDA.3020001@w3.org 15:56:23 DS: I sent a related note to the list 15:56:58 AB: anything else on Joystick for today? 15:57:09 Topic: Mouse Lock 15:57:16 AB: we have a proposal by Vincent Scheib to add Mouse Lock to Web Events charter http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0064.html 15:57:25 AB: Vincent's proposal was sent to both WebApps and WebEvents on Sept 15. I don't think there have been any followups. If there are no objections raised to Vincent's proposal by Sept 22, I will work with Doug on the process of adding this to the charter. 15:58:01 ACTION: barstow work with Doug on formally adding Mouse Lock to WebEvents' charter 15:58:01 Created ACTION-75 - Work with Doug on formally adding Mouse Lock to WebEvents' charter [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-09-27]. 15:58:25 AB: if anyone has any comments on Vincent's proposal, please respond on public-webevents 15:59:00 AB: I will followup with Vincent on how he would want to work on the spec 15:59:13 DS: I would want the spec to include Scoping info and UCs and Reqs 15:59:24 AB: he already has some UCs in the spec 15:59:38 Topic: Any Other Business (AOB) 15:59:45 AB: any other topics for today? 15:59:55 AB: next call is Sept 27; meeting adjourned 16:00:12 -Olli_Pettay 16:00:13 -Doug_Schepers 16:00:13 -scottmg 16:00:14 - +1.503.712.aaaa 16:00:14 -Cathy 16:00:16 -Ted_Mielczarek 16:00:20 AB: please continue technical discussion on the mail list 16:00:24 -Art_Barstow 16:00:26 RWC_WebEven()11:00AM has ended 16:00:28 Attendees were mbrubeck, +1.503.712.aaaa, scottmg, Doug_Schepers, Cathy, Olli_Pettay, Art_Barstow, Ted_Mielczarek 16:00:39 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:00:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/20-webevents-minutes.html ArtB 16:02:04 Regrets: Anders_Höckersten, Sangwhan_Moon 16:02:11 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:02:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/20-webevents-minutes.html ArtB 16:07:12 zakim, bye 16:07:12 Zakim has left #webevents 16:07:18 rrsagent, bye 16:07:18 I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/20-webevents-actions.rdf : 16:07:18 ACTION: cathy create a proposal to address Issue-22 [1] 16:07:18 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/20-webevents-irc#T15-28-31 16:07:18 ACTION: matt produce a test to help us address Issue-21 [2] 16:07:18 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/20-webevents-irc#T15-31-21 16:07:18 ACTION: cathy propose text to address Issue-21 [3] 16:07:18 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/20-webevents-irc#T15-31-34 16:07:18 ACTION: Olli create some multitouch test cases [4] 16:07:18 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/20-webevents-irc#T15-33-11 16:07:18 ACTION: barstow work with Doug on formally adding Mouse Lock to WebEvents' charter [5] 16:07:18 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/20-webevents-irc#T15-58-01