The third W3C Web and TV Workshop in Hollywood - Day1

19 Sep 2011

See also: IRC log




Welcome and Scene Setting

Moderator: Karen Myers & Kaz Ashimura (W3C)

Scribe: Alan Bird (W3C)

Next Steps

Requirements document - it's almost complete - published on Web & TV Wiki

Recommendation on how we move forward - this is just a start

scribe: part of that is to potentially work with rechartered DAP WG
... this is why the report lists all the different things done by the taskforce members

Options: Close Task Force and join Working Group that takes over work


Kaz: introduces Clarke Stevens, CableLabs

<giuseppe> The HNTF req. document draft is available here: http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/HNTF/Home_Network_TF_Requirements

Media Pipeline Task Force Update

Charged with coming up with requirements mapping gaps Sree pointed out earlier to HTML5

scribe: We have followed Guiseppe's work in setting up and running a task force
... [reviews details of what task force is covering]
... currently not considering adaptive streaming formats but that may change
... we decided to include DRM support.

Key Topics

TV Services - thingns not normally done on web but required in TV experience

scribe: required as TV moves to not traditional platforms

Multi-screen Video

Video Tag Enhancements - having programmability is important

Time Synchronization - important for things like advertising and other sorts of experiences

Continuous Streams

Adaptive Streaming


Stereo Video Support - very active topic right now

have had 18 use cases submitted

Home Networking is a little ahead of us. We'll be going over first draft this week.

scribe: Had some DRM requirements submitted.
... Had 4 use cases accepted and others near acceptance
... and have draft requriements document ready for review

[What's Left slide]

[schedule slide]

That's basically it. I want you to encourage you to participate in the IG on Thursday.

Kaz: Q&A Period

Ralph Brown: A procedural question

scribe: How do you take a recommendation from the Home Networking Task Force and reach a decision on where it should go?

Guiseppe: Will go with recommendation of the group

Jeff: Wether it's a new WG or changed charter for an existing WG we get the membership involved in that process
... The Advisory Committee has the proposed charter / enhancement and they comment
... If they think we got it wrong they can make a recommendation on what should happen

Kaz: We will talk about the details of the IG recommendation during the meetings on Wed/Thurs

PH: I wanted to make comments on comment made by Sree about we blew it on mobile
... In thinking about it I think you are right. We didn't manage to get the web community
... excited when demand was there.

It's good we've stared early in TV and it's great to involve the right people in the dialogue.

scribe: There is a panel tomorrow to hear from the browser vendors on how they see all of this.

Sree: I do think a couple of things. It's not over in mobile yet, it's just getting started.
... It's not clear what's going to happen in all these areas. If we start early there is the chance to have the path come out differently.
... I think one of the reasons the mobile didn't evolve is that it focused to much on the browsers.

Tony Jasionowski, Panasonic: I have a question for Mr. Koty. Did the charts you showed include people that are watching on IPTV as well?

Sree: In general it's TV connected devices so not just traditional TV. Viewership of video on PCs has declined relative to TV. It appears they want to watch it on TV vs. other platforms.

Tony: So it's inclusive of Over the Top watching.

JanL: what's the progress of issues raised with HTML5

PLH: You raised a set of issues against the HTML5 Specification?
... If they were raised by end of Last call they will be addressed by end of 2012.

JanL: When will we start seeing responses on the bugs?

PLH: You can engage with the Chairs and get the information that way?

JanL: Will the WG proactively engage with the task forces?

PLH: There are ways to get that done at TPAC and other venues.

Craig HBO: To Sree's point of the 1:1 relation for devices to browsers.

[Sree comments on situation in EMEA]

[discussion not heard]

<dsinger> Bill Sheppard, Oracle (ex-Sun) asks about persistent headless apps...

<Nav> I can repeat the question atleast: I asked Sree (who had mentioned that Media Pipeline standardization and programmability is key) if the effort underway at Cablelabs met his need for "not botching up" [Question by nav@motorola.com]

Sree: Covers potential solutions that vary based on device and location

Some of the visibility for the home network is important.

scribe: We're pushing hard with Opera and others that they need to address the home network
... might be professional content as well.

I think the other thing is that we do think that having some model for the cloud is important as we need to see the home network as a part of that.


Break until 1100

Session 1 / Content Provider and Consumer Perspectives - Panel

Moderator: Ralph Brown (CableLabs)

Scribe: Karen Myers (W3C)

Karen: Ralph Brown, CTO CableLabs is moderating

Ralph introduces panel

* Craig Cuttner (HBO)

* Paul Gavalis (ESPN/Disney)

* Glenn Goldstein (MTVN)

* Bill Mandel (NBCUniversal)

* Jay Myers (BestBuy.com)

* Cyril Rickelton-Abdi (Turner)

* Duncan Rowden (BBC)

Ralph: Jay, I'd like to start with you and get a consumer perspective
... what are concerns and expectations from consumers
... and implications for un-met expectations?

Jay: I've done research in stores with customers
... customers see applications native on TV
... some are not aware that they have browsers in them
... some splintering into apps and native apps
... native is winning right now
... our employees and consumers are not aware they are web accessible
... challenge to make people more informed
... challenge for group is to go with HTML5 technologies
... that are supported over multiple platforms
... we struggle with multiple development kits
... developing for Google Android, other platforms
... how will network perform; some technical issues that customers experience
... some observations we have made
... can get into more detail
... but those we can get into

Ralph: does that resonate with others on the panel

Glenn Goldstein, MTV: our platform was always web all the time

scribe: Flash because of it its ubiquity we thought of it as part of browser
... mobile environment, users are like collecting badges
... lots of cute icoms
... flavored device to show what is important to you
... opposite culture; may be tough to swing pendulum back
... web vs app
... culture
... also offer experiences all want
... we are playing with MP player
... doing oK in Safari
... but doing native app
... we take HTML5 player, run it there
... but take advantage of freedoms
... we have developed in this environment
... but have hand cuffs
... would be interesting if HTML5 apps find themselves in an app
... overlays, full screen mode

Duncan Rowdan, BBC: piggy back what Jay said

scribe: consistent offerings over connected devices
... access BBC iPlayer
... same offering as neighbor two blocks down
... when you buy connected device
... don't want to upgrade hardware every two years
... a bit of time to support a certain device
... also have to think about ease of use of devices
... don't want 70-year old grandmother knocking on door
... about how to use a service
... and PC in TV
... need a nice, user experience

Craig Cuttner, HBO: consumer has expectations around TV

scribe: consumer purchasing looks at check boxes at retail
... think about how many of check marks are functional

Jay: yes, agree
... we see huge reluctance to get TV that does not have exactly what they want
... people will holdoff on buying TV
... and instead plug in their PC
... so instead of going forward, going back
... also fear of obsolescence
... what if it doesn't have what I need or won't upgrade
... to next version of software
... fear of buying obsolte TV
... may extend beyond lifecycle

Ralph: so delay of purchase

Jay: yes and adoption of 3D we saw this

Ralph: Let's move to the other end of spectrum
... the studios where content is created
... Bill, I'm interested in your requirements
... what needs to be addressed through browsers and web connected devices

Bill, Universal: developing QC is about a month

scribe: intention of web is to code it
... find place on browsers
... going forward we need more guidance to address QC problem on rapid schedule

Ralph: what about content protection

Bill: quite a moving target
... going from standard def to high def
... as well with mobile
... quite a few services in high def
... ratcheting up security
... and what you do in pay tv space
... see transition
... software with video server
... vs specialized DRM
... see requirements drifting towards that
... allow that to remain a moving target while HTML standards are develope

Ralph: not only question of timing but also qualtiy
... trade-off of quality of content and resolution
... how long and strong content protection needs to be

Bill: there is a huge amount of content on TV
... in past in has been a "science project"
... but now it needs to be a professional grade service

Craig: when we premier content on Web
... some content preceeds
... issue for us, to level certaintly is have platform
... HBO approach, from security perspective,
... would like a responsible entitty
... we know when there is a security issue
... not a unified environment
... whether signed code
... has to get fixed
... open content wants to be free; but not free in business models
... we need the content to be secure
... content recording and abuse as well

Paul, ESPN: we look at accessibility and timings of content

scribe: sports content is short-lived
... try to put in best protection for a given platform
... but also look at how many steps we are asking people to go through

Ralph: other issues
... Turner deals with a lot of issues

Cyril: on TV side of things
... we have been very active and at forefront
... recently launched CNN application
... trying to create a way for the authentication of things
... to be common between all of us
... one of main issues we saw
... if you want to put up content
... you face issue of having to build relationship many times
... need a way to do that in more singular fashion
... multiple platforms is problem
... and authentication point
... evolution of TV
... TV was in the living room
... I sit with my two young kids
... sometimes they like to watch on their iPhones
... that is the way it's going
... we want our content everywhere all the time

Ralph: I think BBC has a different business model and different view

Duncan: we obtain content from third parties

<Tamer> hi

Duncan: we sell content to third particies as well

<Tamer> i'am new here

<Tamer> i'am interesting in the web

Duncan: the means by which BBC observes rights continues to evolve
... get to right balance
... of observing rights and reach as much of public as possible
... and that licencee gets as much value for the money

<scribe> ...new techniques

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: IP checks, authentication
... tailor the right tech to righ device or platforms
... that we are streaming to
... that can lead to content black-outs
... we continually evolve with the technology as a work-in-process

Ralph: summarize that content protection is a given
... but a lot of variability
... to that whole process

Glenn: content protection should be viewed as a spectrum of poss.
... license packaing
... other techniques
... link protection, encrypted delivery over pipe
... player verification
... maybe a fan taps into content and we may be paying their bandwidth bill
... not only lose content but also issue of bandwith
... can be very expensive, this fragmented world of DRm
... need different platforms

<dsinger> we should talk about same/cross-origin restriction specs

Glenn: need for interoperability ofDRM

Cyril: I see the protection
... spectrum as Paul mentioned
... sports has short shelf life
... news as it airs
... but premium content has to have bigger protection
... quite a gamet
... several levels to put in place
... as window, resolution
... ability to check pages
... multiple platforms...
... a major head-ache

Ralph: so shift to another topic

<scribe> ...closed captioning and sub-titling

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: creation of closed captioning has to occur somewhere
... how does that work and what if it does not make it to the end?

Craig: in some cases you get a fine

<scribe> ...closed captioning required in devices

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: when you bring TV into home
... consumer has expectation of how that works
... whether remote control with CC or even formating of how message looks on screen
... debate about whether CC is interchangeable
... how it works is different
... encoding rules, language support, creative processes
... when you bring into home, get many expectations on how it works

Glenn: talk about it in context of browser
... idea of programmability
... we will face choice
... user agent handles it natively
... or access and go to it
... CC happenign
... Flash players, Javascript
... rendering it in overlay
... some trade-offs
... ultimately be better served to have it handled by user agent
... system level function
... I'm all right as long as we agree on the formats to be supported
... timed text formats
... need a standard that all members of the ecosystem can live with
... and whether in-band is bound up
... or out of band off to side
... answer is flexibility

?: testing going on

scribe: very much a creative process
... that captions render on screen a certain way
... regardless of browser or method used
... need to put that in front of the IG
... needs to be done from creative intent

?: high consumer expectation

scribe: same experience across devices
... live sports has challenge of closed captioning
... as we transition to Web and devices
... need to support same level of quality

Ralph: isn't it largely that?

Cyril: yes, largely inbound
... in future may have flexibility to do out of band

Glenn: we are doing out of band now
... most realistic way to getstream to user agents
... several advantages
... author and combine later
... not repackage video file
... VOD out of band can be powerful

<narm_gadiraju> would request the speakers to talk into the mic. Difficult to hear in the back.

Ralph: other comments on CC and subtitle?

Bill: want subtitles to look in certain way
... may want a certain font
... hard to push that out
... graphical subtitles can suit that well
... also timed text

Craig: PC as browser
... morphing
... another thing in ecosystem to look at
... Web is source, not just sink of content
... expectation that is new requirement from TV side of house
... Web side has not had that requirement before

Ralph: last topic to cover
... is parental control
... important issue that really differs by country
... different ways to rate content and control
... get reaction from panel
... how do you deal with that diversity

Craig: fundamental part of experience
... a consumer with informed knowledge and choice is a benefit not a hindrance
... allows consumers to feel more comfortable around the content
... can have an informed choice
... which is important
... devices being legislated by FCC or around world
... is work to be done
... US method is not always well liked
... some systems embedded
... can be used in screen
... a useful comfort factor of consumer being exposed to content and know what it entails

Bill: a challenging problem
... many standards groups have looked at it
... you have a director's cut movie that may be in unrated area
... ratings vary by territories
... a challenging issue that needs to be looked at

Glenn: on site like Nikelodean
... what we do on video player there
... want to make sure HTML supports it
... even if in full screen cannot do overlays
... this is a problem
... interactivity is also a problem
... age gating
... if risque content
... ask to put in birthdate
... but they lie
... part of regulation
... maybe browser implements

Ralph: Jay, do you want to comment on consumer view
... is this an issue that comes up in retail environment

Jay: yes, it comes up
... as a retailer we are separate from implementation of it
... but consumers ask those questions sometimes
... but still see parental control more an isse on computers

Duncan: BBC iPlayer offers parental controls
... a strain because platforms are different
... when we deliver over a WEI
... different user experience form iPlayer or YouTube
... certain amount of consistency needed
... for platforms and content providers

Ralph: any topics I did not cover?

Jay: I am really interested in going forward with this
... may of these issues seem like blockers
... we talk about native HTML5 apps
... what we are losing to native apps
... how long can we wait until it is totally lost
... thinking about mobile experience
... I fear that we need to accelerate things especially with HTML5
... interim approach perhaps
... but need to get real working concrete examples
... a question for the overall audience

Ralph: You'll see some demos later

Jeff Jaffe: I can comment on how quickly it can get done

scribe: in W3C there are some things that take a really long time, sometimes too long, other times really fast
... the difference is participation
... to give a best case example
... with the threat of privacy legislative hanging over web community
... we got a member submission on do not track
... held workshop in April, last month chartered a WG
... and we expect a final spec in 2012
... we got advertisers and new players at table
... I would encourage participation

<dsinger> and, curses, they are meeting this week, so if you are here (like me) you are missing that meeting!! grr!

scribe: and it's up to us

Ralph: would like to open to floor for questions

David Singer, Apple

scribe: one of questions I have not worked out
... but how closely linked are content creator and page creator?
... media content is in a context being designed for it
... if not related, then life gets much more difficult

Craig: in HBO environment, GO is either Flash based or an app
... that is one unified design view
... trouble if you talk to web designer
... still ask a developer about how much custom code is required
... and amazed at how much
... throw content over wall and hope it looks same
... currently all about apps

Glenn: sometimes happy coincidence
... if choose open browser and not app
... some push for more mix and match
... content out there; cannot control everything
... see more cross-overs

Thierry Fautier, Harmonic

scribe: not sure if you follow what is happening in Europe
... moving fast on HbbTV Spec
... will have a complete package
... want to know your perspective on the HbbTV
... an initiative started in Europe to have interactivity
... based on HTML standard
... what is interesting is putting more effort onto DRM protection
... we'll see more on that tomorrow
... a standard that is deployable in the coming quarters

Ralph: isn't that a combination of broadband device with terrestrial?

Thierry: yes

Duncan: you are talking about hybrid set boxes
... no reason why HTML5 could not provide same functionality
... with HTML5 not quite there yet
... HbbTV
... hard to say what will happen
... what will be adopted
... I think it's one of those things we continue to monitor

Sylvia Pfeiffer, HTML5 WG IE: I am trying to answer question

scribe: as to what they should do
... if any company wants to solve issues,
... go an implement requirements
... see if you can make it work with the existing specifications
... sometimes your needs are already solved
... if you cannot solve it, then go to HTML WG
... come to this point and cannot solve it

Glenn: which browser?

Sylvia: you have diff browsers
... problem of standard in development

<yosuke> [FYI: HbbTV ver.1.0 and ver.1.5 are based on CE-html (HTML4.01). Upcoming HbbTV 2.0 may adopt HTML5.]

Sylvia: pick one browser
... develop it and try to solve things in the spec, with javascript
... if you cannot solve it, then get involved
... not the right way to wait until it's settled

Ralph: that is why you are all here
... I will express on the HbbTV front
... seems like a subset of HTML
... suitable for that environment
... what I was hearing was more uniformity and less fragmentation

Glenn: two-way coming
... I had not hear before about the Home Networking initiative [at W3C]
... technologies to facilitate that synchronization
... will be important

Jeff Jaffe: very interesting panel

scribe: I am curious
... DRM standardization
... where should that be done
... what are the right fora?
... W3C, others?

Craig: is it really DRM...obfuscation
... considering security requirements
... maybe DRM virtualization
... just a call
... go through and verify signatures as a trusted client
... and as far as you get
... Ultra Violet discussions
... more about virtualizatoin rather than standardize a system

Ralph: Ultra Violet is the way to go?

Craig: in terms of interoperability in satellite world
... it was simulcrypt
... never got traction in US, but in Europe
... systems that matter
... no room for more

Glenn: standardization work on DASH may be area to focus that

Ralph: yes, we'll talk about DASH in detail later
... ran to the limit

Session 2 / Multi-screen TV in the Home Network - Demo

Moderator: Giuseppe Pascale (Opera)

Scribe: Jan Lindquist (Ericsson)

<JanL> scribenick: JanL

announcement, be clear on your questions

at dinner put your name plates in front of your plate

welcomce back

this session is over home network demos

NHK to present a demo

developing advanced hybrid solutions

introduce available service in hybridcast

and give demos

<karen> 13:00 - 14:15 Session 2 / Multi-screen TV in the Home Network - Demo Session

<yosuke> Hiroshi Fujisawa, NHK:

before playing video will explain concepts

tight combination between broadcast and broadband

<karen> Speaker: Hiroshi Fujisawa (NHK) on Hybridcast

here is the view point of japanes broadcast services

broadcasters interested in showing atractive services

there are 3 main blocks

<yosuke> [Slide: Overall architecture of the Hybrid system]

broadcast, serivce provider and receiver

service provider provide applications and content to users

broadcaster can also provide services

will introduce use cases for extension of html5

first demo of Hybridcast video demo from NHK world

watching video

<yosuke> [1st demo, 1: rate synchronization of multiple streams via both broadcasting and telecommunications.]

<yosuke> [1st demo, 2: Closed caption via both broadcasting and telecommunication simultaneously with sync.]

<scribe> done with first example

2nd examples shows multi-screen

watching video

TV and ipad is connected with wifi

showing next example

next example shows scheduled content is interrupted and content becomes temporarily invisible

we want to realize our solutions on html5

questions on demo?

next speaker will give demos on expanding ...

<dcorvoysier> ... The horizontal web

title is expanding the horizontal of web

we cannot achieve everything to be presented but it is our vision

in the first workshop we proposed an API

thsi is only our idea but many peope have participated

and we have discussed the requirements in this use case

during the discussion we had different opinions and we would like to highlight Sony's views

this is not only controlling DLNA devices but exposing an API

thsi will expand the horizontal of web

there are several approaches, three of them

we focus on approach c

we would like to give demo using a tv and tablet

simple demo

show the new UI on how the privacy and security can look like

and how it can look on the browser

description of scenario (a)

<yosuke> (a) Machine-man-machine interface: like W3C has in MMI.

the web become the hub to communicate the device in the home

this does not only realize the dlna services but others

the appilcations communicate directly

some discussions points discussed in the task force

high level api, controls very specific services

low level is a generic discovery and communication API

any services can be achieved through the lower level API

the low level API has potential to realize use cases like 2nd screen example

<yosuke> [An example of high level is the DLNA media renderer.]

if discovery is based on upnp which uses soap for communication

even though low level API can realize the services

this slide shows security aspects and risks

<yosuke> Sony suggests a low level api.

there is a proposal on the different solutions

there are various risks as highlighted in the table

type of API, low or high is indicated if applicable to a risk

the simple solution of IP address is filtered by the UA

this only addresses risk 4

anotehr appraoch warning of discovery device

another which will be part of the demo is the demo, warning of device access by UA

another appraoch is a authentication by the UA

last solution is device provides the the device against the attack

now comes the demo

Bravia will do the renderer

dlna will be used to control this service

tablet will control the tv

by the way Sony has just started to sell the tablet... yesterday I hear

this is the UI of the tablet

video can be accessed directly from the internet

we will play the video that was on the tablet on the tv

left we hae the home network discovery

if that web application starts to discovery the devices

a warning pops up

indicating that access of your location area network device

press ok

discovered two device

a 2nd warning comes up there is an attempt to control the TV

the video is rendered on the TV from the tablet

protocol is dlna

thsi is a very simple demo but it shows the privacy and security solution

this is a sample of the webpage and how the browser setting can control the privacy

one option controls if discovery and access is enabled

second option allows to access a new device, always, query or never

right side the user can cusotomize which devices can be controlled

next presentation from Clarke Stevens

demo is multi-protocol...

demonstration of distribution of commercials in the home network using html5

develop a general applications for this service

there is work done in applet to enable the control of these services

tested on all major browsers

advantage is that the UI can be loaded from the network

here is the basic layout of the demo

appplet is downloaded onto the device

the user can select to enable the services or not

applet is provided by a trusted service provider

now comes the demo

if familiar with upnp we are using 3box model

safari running on mac

a little laptop is simply playing

it is running zeroconf and upnp...

that is where the content is played from

here we get the request to sign the java applet

now the discovery will start

now you see 2 devices

now there is a warning to get access to the service

xbmc is the renderer

the content is being played on laptop

now a demo of zeroconf

music was played

this is the api that is there currently

<bryan> any link to the demo code available?

this is an api that we have deloped together with opera

soon a joint proposal of the new api

there is 1 api that enables discovery

which will work across protocols

this work will be done in dap as a joint collaboration between cablelabs and opera

next and last demo

George from TimeWarnerCable to present next

we worked with Samsung on a demo

access of recording content in the home

we work very much on STB

<yosuke> [Slide: Traditional Cable UI Technology]

STB costs

data carousel is used to download applications to STB

want to move away from that

want to get to CE devices

<yosuke> [Slide: Consumer Owned Devices]

efforts are not so successful

these devices have different OSs

an appication on each of these devices is not realistic

<yosuke> [Slide: Home Networking]

home networking is an important aspect

how to get home devices to talk to each other

today the STB can provide dvr in the home network

we really want to move the logic to the network

get away from the broadcast of data

move it to the network using web techn

<yosuke> [Slide: Web Technologies]

web techn will help achieve this

samsung will show a web browser that achieves this

high speed access will be to achieve our goals

our UI hardly changes today

need techn that allows to move to web

<yosuke> [Slide: Samsung SmartTV]

this demo starts with a samsung tv with a browser using cea-2014

it is based on xhtml

it has some extensions for disovery

it does not have video tag support

this is basically their app store

samsung wanted to take advantage of the smart hub

and how you load applications

<yosuke> [Slide: Architecture]

what we did with our application is we are loading an application from teh samsung services

our application in our servers to the TV

we want to get dvr content to the TV

how we get the contet to the tv

we have method for discovery

we can use upnp discovery

rui is exposed by the stb

<yosuke> [Slide: Discovery - SSDP]

this is the upnp architecture

refer to slide for details

<yosuke> [Slide: Discovery - App Store]

demo to be now shown

<bryan> Can we get the slides posted to the WS site? Also the papers at http://www.w3.org/2011/09/webtv/papers.html are from the 2010 workshop. It would be a lot better to see the author names alongside a link to the papers, rather than the raw directory listing at http://www.w3.org/2011/09/webtv/papers/

loaded an app called TVCable TV

start the applicatoni

first thing it does is start discovery

it uses broot discovery by reading each ip address

when it got an IP address it then give option to start loading content

us is loaded from the services

it queries the network from the server

we were happy wiht the UI

video comes from teh STB

now you manage your schedule

using web services to get info from the STB

all sources are detected

it was an appliction and not a web page

<yosuke> [Slide: Conclusions]

can we use this techn on an embedded device

the flexibility is there

there is work to be done

samsung worked on cea-2014

<Alan> s /there/there/

but prefer that w3c adopts the work from there

the tools to have drm have to be there

work in hntf is very important

question, very interesting demo

intersting the role of the STB

design contraints in the STB are different

<yosuke> [Now Jeff is asking a question.]

there are different constraints

are we adequately represented here

timerwarner has 3 STB's

and 2 are present

want to push STB's to participate more in the future

<yosuke> Clarke:

need to involve the expertise

<yosuke> Igarashi, Sony:

need a clear, stream lined solution on the API level

the issue is not only the ce vendor

it is a question if the consumer wants the higher level TV

the challenge to make the TV more capable

<yosuke> ?, Oracle?:

want to you recommend a standardize this arbetrary service to provide the services in the home

answer, there is not much that is needed

we can load the applications on the stb that can support these services

<scribe> done with session

<Alan> BREAK!

<cyrilrickelton-ab> Anyone in the attendance has painkillers? Superb migraine is killing my day...

<ChrisWilson> cyrilrickelton-ab: I have ibuprofen. I'm in an orange shirt, sitting on the right-hand side of the room

Session 3 / Multi-screen TV in the Home Network - What's Next? — Panel

Moderator: Matt Hammond (BBC)

Scribe: Karen Myers (W3C)

<kaz_> scribenick: karen

<kaz_> (Self introduction of each panelist)

<kaz_> (sergey, Igarashi, Amol)

Matt: main set of requirements were about accessing, discover services to fine media content and find between devices
... Amol, starting with you
... DLNA is a prime candidate
... so W3C will have to work with those groups; how do see this happening

Amol: specifications are available freely on web site
... that model is similar to W3C specifications
... on DLNA front, guidelines are publicly available
... but not freely available on the web site
... they can be purchased
... but only have hard copies, not soft
... companies realize this issue
... from CableLabs side we are addressing that situation
... responsibility lies on the shoulders of the companies that are common with DLNA and W3C
... there is a simple liaison established between DLNA and W3C
... where questions can be asked on either side
... so that avenue is open for requesting info

Matt: Russell, anything to add?

Russell: yes, I can answer from Samsung perspective
... specs are publicly available with caveat
... that to utilize specifiations you must join the UPnP forum
... and abide by policy
... if you are developing products and wish to use the UPnP mark
... you need to be an implementing member of the forum
... in order to submit product to DLNA you have to have it certified by UPnP
... currently 950+ forum members
... and 120 implementing, doing products
... self certification so not a high bar in UPnP
... W3C members are welcome to join
... at basic level can participate in working levels
... other way would be a formal liaison from W3C to UPnP to request we do something
... That has happened with DLNA
... ask us to do certain standards

Matt: anybody else have thoughts on this?

Igarashi: depends on what we expect
... if W3C would like to conference on product specification, good idea
... we , Sony, suggested low leve API, so the protocol staff will be written by Javascript, and the certification of that kind of software is the another question I would like to ask
... written by Javascript Web App

Matt: Any thoughts about how these groups can make use of UPnP products? How easy to make use

Amol: not sure about certifying
... test and certify the mapping
... As it has been demonstrated, APIs can work on browsers as well
... then organizations like DLNA can see what protocols needs to be executed and test that piece
... maybe that is where we draw the line
... W3C does test applications
... definitely one area for collaboration

Igarashi: DLNA could certify the Web Applications?

JC: not sure that's the case
... W3C APIs would not be subject to compatability issues
... maybe easier or harder to use with UPnP
... issue is can W3C APIs work on more than UPnP
... also accommodate future protocols

Matt: this leads to other interesting issues
... middleware layers to talk to these
... and define high-level APIs
... thoughts on this
... higher level APIs have a trade-off
... may restrict you to functionalizty
... and how complext it is to do applications

Amol: beneficial to have API work on more than one protocol
... I think that should be direction that W3C should take
... API that can work on more than one protocol
... and can work with any protocol that comes in future
... define based on use cases rather than underlying protocol

Russell: I like the discovery model
... ecosystem for standardized binding
... for web content
... the reason I prefer to uniform API
... is that uniform API is written to the lowest common denominator
... cannot exploit richness of ecosystems
... has been 10-15 years of work on metadata
... pity to see that cast aside under guise of a paradigm with no richness to describe content, recording, control home network devices
... need some care in choosing our approach

JC: I would support that approach
... compare UPnP...they don't have the action messages
... not having that would be a pity
... W3C API should allow easy access to the messaging which is present in one and not in the others

George: I would agree with Russell
... we want to be agnostic to the underlying protocols
... our applications developers get frustrated
... at times I like to see both sides
... like to see one protocol
... but not reduce functionality set by trying to be generic

Russell: an ecosystem specific binding

George: would benefit all of us

Sergey: should consider media controls

Matt: looking atother requirements
... we touched on that applications may do services and wish to communicate
... Igarashi, Igarashi, you brought these use cases to the task force and presented on them
... interested in comment on a new working group vs DAP (Device Application Protocol)

Igarashi: we would like stakeholders to discuss the technical discussion

Matt: Work on verticals?
... do you feel that to enable this requires more than just user agent APIs
... other areas that need standardization here?

Igarashi: yes, user agent API

Russell: I am not an expert on OIPF
... I think in home networking WG
... that was one of concerns I had
... what is the web application
... javascript, something else
... I would like to understand that issue better

Amol: I support what Igarshi-san is saying
... if we have a dedicated WG to address specific home networking requiremetns
... work will come to a solution faster
... we will defer to W3C to give us direction
... but there is a need to satisfy these requirements sooner vs later

Russell: I would support a second WG

Matt: So group concensus is to move work into a WG

<kaz_> (everbody nods)

Matt: another topic is migration to other devices
... also position papers submitting other ideas
... what do we feel needs standardizing
... APIs or much more?

JC: web and tv migration service
... answer 3-4 messages
... one being what are apps you have; get me this app; pls get this app from me
... three messages allow you to have one user agent
... pushing apps or requesting apps
... whenever I discussed in past
... and app, widget
... web page plus CSS
... easy to send a URL
... whole app plus context
... if it's been running
... if you have this, it's a small piece of standard and quite powerful
... use cases
... using web app on tablet
... phone call, go out, and your kid has taken tablet with an Angry Birds game going on
... you request widgets running with important thing you were doing

<kaz_> s/web page plus CSS/Widgets are basically package of Web page/SVG and CSS/

JC: when kid has gone to bed, you push back widget to your tablet
... lots of interesting use cases
... potential and ease of use is beneficial

Kim: our perspective is a partial migration
... by migrating a web app running on tv
... just the user interface for control onto your smart phone or handheld device
... and maintaining dependencies
... with the partially migrated interface on smart phone you can control the TV
... this interface is not nearly designed by another desigern
... but by native application
... two types of approaches

<Kiyoko> suma-tofonnnadowo

Kim: streaming user interface onto smart phone
... and clicking
... it sends touch events on the interface so it can be controlled on TV
... another approach by migrating DOM object
... onto handheld device
... it's self-rendered
... by browser on cell phone
... two types of approaches
... for remote user interface
... one of main issues is remote controlling
... content on future web tv could be complicated
... just controlling with button remote control may not be as flexible
... or not provide degree of freedom of control
... I have proposed such user interface by partial integration

Matt: these approaches have different technical solutions
... any thoughts on how W3C should think about htis?

George: our button remote is very limiting
... not sure we want partial apps going to devices
... power of web and URLs is to go back to same application server
... and controlling the remote device and the core device
... but still the basic underlying architecture
... is at an application layer
... have communication between the two
... not sure we want to get at level of specifying that; we will fall short
... how to specify how to do that
... devices as controllers perhaps
... but focus on core level requirements
... and let app developers figure out

Sergey: form-related protocols
... flexibility to provide mark-up
... flexible use cases in and out of home
... PC or specialized embedded browsers
... very important

Matt: one other area is idea of bootstrapping applications
... may rely on device discovery
... how much of that is being served and coming out of home networking task force

George: home networking task force is focusing on this
... in demo we showed, two ways to get at the applicatoin
... one way relies on DLNA discovery
... other way relies on Samsung to load from their server, app store
... would have to have URL bar
... if we want to have service discovery
... within or outside home network to discover service
... we need to be able to specify
... question of how we genericize it

Igarashi-san: we need a more technical discussion about application migration
... was thinking about it locally
... this migration does also support long migration
... if used to separate
... and migrate by that framework

Matt: could repeat?

Igarashi-san: long migration

JC: we haven't really thought about that
... home or extended home
... basically limited number
... in there the security you set up
... and you can separate the problem of security
... could have it all the time
... in home you want to solve it once
... as a group
... long migration meaning not within one home but including different homes we did not look into that
... home environment is always changing
... things go out of battery, get pre-empted
... cannot give a good use case for a long migration

Matt: so we are now looking at more technical discussions to move forward
... questions from the floor?

Kaz: question for Kim
... how to extend capability of home network
... I work for multimodal and voice browser groups as well
... do you think those kind of interfaces could be used for home network devices?

Kim: yes
... I have seen touch event WG
... working on how touch events can work this way
... and combining those with web and tv domain
... there are parts that could be broken off for the other WG as previous session said
... and adding to my talk before
... was the user interface
... the protocols are not W3C's domain
... but I consider the XML Schemas
... for such scenarios
... should be developed for such domain
... for example marking each component
... if migratable
... consider subset and divide sub componenets of web applications
... bring up interesting issues
... don't mean we bring to another large domain
... consider more use cases in this domain

Kaz: so maybe the Web IG can talk about this at the F2F meeting

Matt: no more questions; thank you panel
... coffee break

[There is not a break now...last session to begin]

15: 30 - 17:00 Session 4 / Synchronized Metadata

Session 4 / Synchronized Metadata

Moderator: John Foliot (W3C Invited Expert)

Moderator: Kaz Ashimura (W3C)

john: (introduces all the panelists)

john: supporting accessibility
... content navigation by content structure using multimedia information
... where are we today with HTML5?
... track element
... also multilevel naviation
... multi-track API
... but no native support yet
... JavaScript polyfills to the rescue
... we can provide today: subtitles, captions, descriptions, chapters, metadata
... first presentation is TV Services and Media Transport by Bob Lund

- Bob's presentation

bob: TV services, Media Transport and HTMl5
... TV Services
... accessibility services for HTML5
... great news is Webkit implementation
... in-band tracks
... table of TV services and media transport mapping to HTML5
... MPEG-2 transport
... MPEG-2 transport stream examples
... what user agent look for/doesn't look for
... how to do this independent on UA
... what UA should do is creating metadata
... synchronized application triggers
... metadata tracks/content tracks
... identified a couple of issues
... various signals

- Eric's demo

eric: customized version of Chromium

(display on the left side; TV remote on the right side)

eric: video editor too
... client insertion
... 2 signals

(request/response events are displayed)

eric: synchronizing with ads
... alternative approach is to decouple the tracks
... complicated purchasing might take long
... pick a location, show time (push buttons on the TV remote)
... you can also pause the video and specify cue

silvia: is that HTML5 page?

eric: too much to look at...

john: next talk will be Manabu Motegi on second screen

- Manabu's presentation

manabu: Second screen displaying life logs and TV contents information
... concept
... family watches medical program
... father watching tablet, mother as well
... TV program connected to freg.
... use cases
... related photographs will be automatically retrieved and displayed
... problem
... two main problems
... relationship of TV content to life log
... framework
... linking approach
... meta data managed using WebVTT
... tagged with location information
... but how to link metadata and life log?
... using linked open data!
... location information of sightseeing spots
... corresponding to related pictures
... implemented system
... client accesses the HTTP server
... metadata will be sent to the WebSOcket server
... example of photographs
... three photographs are registered with the system
... each photograph is tagged with location information
... example of WebVTT
... each segment has time info (duration) and name
... demo video
... iPad and digital TV
... text info is got from DB Pedia and displayed on iPad
... video info is got from Evernote
... conclusion
... without intentional retrieval
... display info

john: cool

- Jim's talk: HTML5 as a platform for delivering movie extras and interactivity

jim: possible XML format for video
... multi-screen applications
... movie player in your pocket
... blu-ray is tremendously powerful platform
... chaptering, captioning, subtitles
... HTML5 timed text capability
... TTML, WebVTT
... you're allowed multiple formats
... subtitles, enhancement of timeline
... presentation default styling for subtitle
... subtitle and accessibility
... text-based metadata is used
... customer experience is important
... consistency of experience is important
... author and user experiences
... you have 3D, graphic subtitles
... not all the implementations support those features
... maybe some kind of plug-ins could be used
... core standard platform for better user experience is needed

- Silvia's presentation: WebVTT in HTML5 for video accessibility and beyond

silvia: working with John for accessibility TF of HTML-WG
... what is WebVTT
... video time-synchronized text data
... <track> element
... kind="caption"
... captions/subtitles example: video demo
... will edit the WebVTT file
... (and play the video again)
... position of subtitle is specified in WebVTT
... description example
... here again we have a WebVTT file
... (and edit the WebVTT file again)
... (add "Welcome to the W3C Web and TV Workshop")
... next is chapter example
... (specifies chapter, and the video jumps to the specified chapter...)
... metada example
... Apple's demo at WWDC 2011
... has metadata track
... levels of support for formants
... WebVTT, select formants, JavaScript

john: couple of questions

tony: responsible to Panasonic accessibility
... Present Obama's talk regarding accessibility
... captioning for IPTV, etc.
... must be captioned
... actual regulation
... will be issued in January
... you have time, but need to work very quickly

jim: Adobe's accessibility team
... accessibility for video
... also commercial Web
... that's us-based, but similar set of standards in Europe as well
... globally substancial
... we support customers vide, Web development
... don't have fragment with closed captioning
... support for TTML
... WebVTT is new and under development

david: multimedia and accessibility
... in context of a dynamic Web page, how do we achieve accessibility
... very difficult to do
... Google submitted a charter for WebVTT to W3C

tony: written MPRN(?) can not be lessor
... something W3C should pay attention

silvia: when we created accessibility TF (within HTML-WG)
... requirements for styling
... requirements document was generated

tony: this would give W3C advantage

john: how to make media accessible?
... the concern I have is graphic-based caption delivery
... I think we have a solution
... support for Web fonts
... wondering if ok with content producing today

jim: idealy if you provide multple subtitles
... you would be able to display in multiple ways

silvia: overlay, etc.
... Apple did that using WebVTT

john: does anybody have any idea to bring today?

tony: @@@

david: TTML is right thing to do
... if you're using JavaScript, it could be WebVTT, etc.
... number of ways for number of purposes

john: we have <track> element

silvia: just to represent a number of timed text
... I foresee standard JavaScript library duong time aligned metadata/time-aligned data
... for cross multi-platform

bob: separate track for captioning
... in-band tracks

- Q&A

john: 5-8 mins

craig: many devices are not browsers on PC
... devices need to support binary data stream
... is that something WebVTT can support?

silvia: e.g., STB?
... for content delivery, you can select protocol
... always put cues
... any text could be included in cues
... don't really see WebVTT would be used for other content, but maybe other situation is possible

david: what does this "TV" mean?
... multiple functionality of browsers

bob: another aspect
... not just Web content

john: devices are, to my mind, devices, e.g., freg, cars could support Web contents

ralphB: opportunity of devices genericly available

david: you can buy new devices but it cost much

john: economical disadvantage
... VoiceOver screen reader is available on iPhone4
... barrier of access is dropping

tony: would reinforce
... TTS is very good application

glenn how captioning is managed?

scribe: consumers of the content have choices
... consumers of the content have choices

andrew: @@@

silvia: you can put JavaScript on your content, and apply to caption as well

john: screen reader has speech synthesis, improves user's experience
... screen reader has speech synthesis, improves user's experience
... would thank the panelist

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2011/09/20 07:41:47 $