IRC log of dnt on 2011-09-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:49:07 [RRSAgent]
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14:49:07 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:49:09 [aleecia]
aleecia has joined #dnt
14:49:12 [tlr]
rrsagent, make log public
14:49:21 [tlr]
Meeting: Tracking Protection Group Open Call
14:49:24 [tlr]
Chair: Aleecia
14:51:05 [Zakim]
Team_(dnt)15:00Z has now started
14:51:12 [Zakim]
14:52:26 [Zakim]
+ +1.949.202.aaaa
14:53:15 [aleecia]
DW, visual aid
14:57:35 [aleecia]
If you are on IRC but not the call bridge, please dial in
14:58:01 [aleecia]
+1.617.761.6200, code TRACK (87225)
14:58:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.770.392.aabb
14:58:33 [aleecia]
14:59:13 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.269.aacc
14:59:35 [aleecia]
14:59:41 [Zakim]
+ +1.412.268.aadd
14:59:52 [dsinger_]
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14:59:58 [mischat_]
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14:59:59 [Zakim]
15:00:09 [Zakim]
+ +54351420aaee
15:00:12 [Zakim]
15:00:36 [aleecia]
543 intel
15:00:50 [tlr]
zakim, aaee is intel
15:00:50 [Zakim]
+intel; got it
15:01:00 [tlr]
zakim, aacc is microsoft
15:01:00 [Zakim]
+microsoft; got it
15:01:04 [Zakim]
+ +1.303.438.aaff
15:01:12 [tlr]
zakim, aabb is att
15:01:12 [Zakim]
+ +44.776.855.aagg
15:01:12 [Zakim]
+att; got it
15:01:20 [tlr]
zakim, aaff is trueffect
15:01:20 [Zakim]
+trueffect; got it
15:01:20 [dsinger_]
zakim, who is here?
15:01:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aleecia, +1.949.202.aaaa, att, microsoft, +1.412.268.aadd, dsinger, intel, Thomas, trueffect, +44.776.855.aagg
15:01:23 [Zakim]
On IRC I see mischat_, dsinger_, aleecia, RRSAgent, Zakim, tlr, TruEffect, mischat, schunter1, hober
15:01:31 [tlr]
zakim, aagg is Vodafone
15:01:31 [Zakim]
+Vodafone; got it
15:01:55 [tlr]
zakim, mute me
15:01:55 [Zakim]
sorry, tlr, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:01:55 [dsinger_]
Who is in 949 and 412 areas?
15:01:58 [tlr]
zakim, I am thomas
15:01:58 [Zakim]
ok, tlr, I now associate you with Thomas
15:02:02 [tlr]
zakim, mute me
15:02:02 [Zakim]
Thomas should now be muted
15:02:07 [tlr]
aleecia: hi
15:02:14 [Zakim]
15:02:20 [Zakim]
15:02:21 [tlr]
… there'll be another co-chair pending paperwork
15:02:35 [mischat_]
zakim, ??P18 is me
15:02:35 [Zakim]
+mischat_; got it
15:02:44 [tlr]
… about me
15:02:58 [tlr]
… starting part-time post-doc this fall
15:03:04 [tlr]
… part-time senior privacy researcher at Mozilla
15:03:15 [Bruce]
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15:03:22 [tlr]
… there'll be another Mozilla representative so I can focus on chairing
15:03:30 [tlr]
… role is to help create consensus decisions
15:03:34 [tlr]
ack thomas
15:04:02 [Yang]
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15:04:09 [mischat]
tlr: Thomas oversees relevant work at the w3
15:04:15 [Louise]
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15:04:53 [dsinger_]
15:05:25 [dsinger_]
Ack dsinger
15:06:03 [mischat]
aleecia: people with name starting later in the alphabet, please introduce yourself
15:07:38 [tlr]
aleecia: lots of attention, exciting times
15:08:19 [tlr]
15:08:21 [tlr]
… acknowledge massively aggressive schedule
15:08:26 [tlr]
… there's a lot going on in the ecosystem around us
15:08:32 [tlr]
… and a lot of that is going quickly
15:08:43 [tlr]
… also, note users and DNT implementers
15:08:54 [tlr]
… don't want for early adopters to have to change implementation
15:09:02 [tlr]
… also, users rightly perplexed by what browsers are doing
15:09:07 [tlr]
… want to do excellent work, not just fast work
15:09:15 [tlr]
… there will be times when it's important to slow down
15:09:18 [tlr]
… balancing act there
15:09:26 [tlr]
… compressed time line means more work more quickly
15:09:49 [tlr]
… this work is worth the extra effort
15:10:00 [tlr]
… immediate time line: FPWD end of the month
15:10:19 [mischat]
15:10:36 [tlr]
… (deliverable structure)
15:10:42 [tlr]
… let me highlight a few things we'll not do
15:10:50 [tlr]
… definitions part — don't deal with huge issues like "what is privacy"
15:11:02 [tlr]
… not looking into philosophy, nail down terms needed for there set of the documents
15:11:07 [tlr]
… "what does it mean to be a first party"
15:11:28 [Zakim]
+ +358.504.87aahh
15:11:52 [tlr]
… expect for the process to be iterative
15:11:58 [tlr]
… also, don't expect to have consensus on everything
15:12:08 [tlr]
… document what has consensus, and what doesn't
15:12:19 [tlr]
… end month with understanding of scope and direction
15:12:22 [Francisco]
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15:12:23 [tlr]
… what can you do to help?
15:12:27 [tlr]
… input documents!
15:12:32 [tlr]
… some work here is dating back to 2007
15:12:41 [tlr]
15:13:00 [tlr]
… please send note to mailing list with proposals for input documents
15:13:09 [tlr]
… please be on the lookout for any great input documents
15:13:14 [tlr]
… also, more importantly — think about use cases
15:14:01 [tlr]
… the Princeton humm suggested tracking definition + exceptions
15:14:14 [tlr]
… please send use cases to mailing list that permit somewhat more detailed discussion
15:14:19 [tlr]
… e.g., not just "security"
15:14:39 [tlr]
... also, please think about *your* success criteria
15:14:54 [tlr]
… about the Cambridge meeting — hotels look bad right now, sorry
15:14:59 [tlr]
… two very full days ahead of us with long breaks
15:15:03 [tlr]
… self-hosted dinner on the 21st
15:15:26 [tlr]
… goal is to do things jointly, collaboratively
15:15:38 [dwferrell]
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15:16:32 [tlr]
… we look for spirited back-and-forth, but will step in if discussions should go personal
15:16:42 [tlr]
… most frequently asked question: what to expect for other f2f meetings
15:16:49 [tlr]
… 3-4 meetings; more frequently early on
15:16:58 [tlr]
… second meeting in Santa Clara, CA
15:16:58 [tlr]
15:17:14 [tlr]
… third meeting in Europe, perhaps Belgium — after the holidays
15:17:22 [tlr]
… we'll add fourth meeting if and only if necessary
15:17:29 [tlr]
… travel budgets are known serious issue
15:17:30 [dsinger_]
15:17:38 [tlr]
… if there's a meeting you just cannot attend, we'll understand
15:17:45 [tlr]
… also, know several orgs are working through paperwork
15:18:26 [tlr]
… MIT sign-up is open to those interested
15:18:35 [tlr]
… please register ASAP — today, ideally
15:18:46 [aleecia]
15:18:59 [Bruce]
Hello - can you outline the best type of person, i.e. technical background, to attend these session.
15:19:21 [aleecia]
oct 31, nov 1 for next meeting
15:19:41 [mischat]
tlr: additional information, meeting room booking for TPAC has come through, TPAC registration is open, please reg very soon ...
15:19:47 [tlr]
15:19:59 [aleecia]
15:19:59 [dsinger_]
Ack dsinger
15:20:01 [tlr]
ack dsin
15:20:17 [tlr]
david: web and TV IG meeting — can't get to Cambridge
15:21:16 [tlr]
dsinger: dates early, please please please
15:21:28 [Francisco]
15:21:29 [aleecia]
15:21:35 [tlr]
aleecia: sorry, acknowledged, TPAC 31 October, 1 November
15:21:37 [tlr]
15:22:19 [tlr]
kenny(ATT): wonder — where could I find discussion, references about premise and motivation to do the work?
15:22:30 [tlr]
… appreciate there's lots of legal and pseudo-legal discussions around policy issues
15:22:35 [tlr]
… opt-in/opt-out and so on
15:22:47 [tlr]
… set of foundational assumptions?
15:23:20 [tlr]
aleecia: to address one piece first — opt-in/opt-out is a straight-out political question. out of scope.
15:23:31 [tlr]
… that could vary by browser company, by country — whole variety of factors
15:23:38 [tlr]
… that's a discussion that will continue in other fora
15:23:47 [tlr]
… secondly, in terms of some of the foundational work
15:23:53 [tlr]
… input documents that we have put on the WG home page
15:23:57 [tlr]
… are documents we're looking at right now
15:23:58 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.536.aaii
15:24:09 [tlr]
… if there are others we should look at, we'd be delighted to have input
15:24:17 [tlr]
… if you have additional input, please provide it
15:24:24 [mischat]
15:24:26 [tlr]
… in some cases, will compare documents to see where there are points of agreements
15:24:31 [mischat]
^^ input documents
15:24:37 [tlr]
… in some cases, look at issues etc
15:24:49 [tlr]
… in terms of philosophy for do not track
15:24:53 [MeMe]
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15:25:02 [tlr]
… expect that if we have 30 people in the room, will have 40 opinions
15:25:07 [tlr]
… different backgrounds and different views
15:25:14 [tlr]
… don't think we'll have all of that resolved
15:25:26 [tlr]
… get to consensus on what technology looks like, and what people need to do
15:26:16 [tlr]
kenny: there must be a consensus about technical requirement assumption
15:26:23 [tlr]
aleecia: consensus of the group
15:26:28 [tlr]
kenny: technical requirements?
15:26:38 [tlr]
aleecia: unusually highly watched, highly political environment
15:26:46 [tlr]
… many of the recommendations from W3C are not on that level
15:26:51 [tlr]
… not unprecedented
15:27:28 [tlr]
… w3c more on the technical, than the political side
15:27:37 [tlr]
… technical decisions / policy decisions influence each other
15:27:53 [tlr]
… note that people from FTC, regulators internationally are paying attention
15:28:00 [tlr]
… likely to act as observers
15:28:19 [tlr]
hannes: my interpretation is that there is one purely technical piece of work
15:28:21 [tlr]
… the header
15:28:24 [Francisco]
zakim, q+
15:28:24 [Zakim]
I see Francisco on the speaker queue
15:28:35 [aleecia]
15:28:44 [tlr]
… there is also a policy piece that goes beyond the technical work
15:28:53 [tlr]
… in the mozilla submission, that related to what the semantics of the header are
15:28:57 [mischat]
This specification defines the meaning of a Do Not Track preference and sets out practices for Web sites to comply with this preference." sounds like what people are talking about now
15:29:01 [tlr]
… same meaning associated to that across the meaning
15:29:10 [tlr]
… that's the interesting part of the whole conversation, but also the difficult one
15:29:17 [tlr]
aleecia: that's the bulk of the work, indeed
15:29:26 [Zakim]
15:29:52 [tlr]
… to take an example — if there was a decision that DNT does not apply to first parties
15:30:01 [tlr]
… then that has policy implications, also business implications
15:30:18 [tlr]
… those are the things where the technical decisions would implicate the policy effects
15:30:54 [tlr]
15:31:08 [tlr]
DWFarrel: opt-in / opt-out in scope for later?
15:31:11 [tlr]
aleecia: out of scope
15:31:20 [tlr]
francisco: not involved in a w3c group before
15:31:24 [dsinger_]
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15:31:34 [tlr]
… won't be able to attend the first two meetings; I'm in Argentina
15:31:45 [tlr]
… what level of work can be done off-line?
15:31:57 [tlr]
aleecia: expect first draft to be highly face-to-face
15:32:06 [tlr]
… for subsequent drafts, more on mailing list
15:32:17 [tlr]
… use face-to-face to work through issues that have been surfaced on mailing list
15:32:20 [Zakim]
15:32:32 [tlr]
… if you're not able to make any of the WG meetings in person, then probably good choice to find somebody else in your organization
15:33:18 [tlr]
francisco: dial-in possible?
15:33:24 [tlr]
aleecia: for first meeting, working to set up phone
15:33:39 [tlr]
… fear the acoustics of the room aren't speaker phone friendly
15:33:45 [tlr]
… also, IRC
15:33:58 [tlr]
… doing best we can to accommodate, but phone bridge might not work as well as we'd like
15:33:59 [aleecia]
15:34:03 [tlr]
ack franci
15:34:31 [tlr]
aleecia: meeting adjourned
15:35:06 [Zakim]
- +1.408.536.aaii
15:35:09 [dsinger_]
15:35:10 [Zakim]
15:35:11 [Zakim]
- +358.504.87aahh
15:35:11 [Zakim]
15:35:12 [Zakim]
15:35:12 [Zakim]
15:35:12 [tlr]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:35:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate tlr
15:35:13 [Zakim]
15:35:14 [Zakim]
15:35:16 [Zakim]
15:35:17 [Zakim]
15:35:19 [Zakim]
- +1.949.202.aaaa
15:35:21 [Zakim]
- +1.412.268.aadd
15:35:23 [Zakim]
Team_(dnt)15:00Z has ended
15:35:25 [Zakim]
Attendees were aleecia, +1.949.202.aaaa, +1.770.392.aabb, +1.425.269.aacc, +1.412.268.aadd, dsinger, +54351420aaee, Thomas, intel, microsoft, +1.303.438.aaff, +44.776.855.aagg,
15:35:28 [Zakim]
... att, trueffect, Vodafone, shayman, mischat_, +358.504.87aahh, +1.408.536.aaii
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