IRC log of ua on 2011-09-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:45:03 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:45:03 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-ua-irc
16:45:05 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:45:05 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:45:07 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:45:08 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:45:08 [trackbot]
Date: 15 September 2011
16:45:08 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
16:45:24 [JAllan]
chair: jimAllan, KellyFord
16:45:37 [JAllan]
regrets: MarkkuH
16:46:14 [JAllan]
regrets+ SimonH
16:51:44 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
16:54:01 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
16:54:01 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
16:55:40 [kford]
Agenda+ Register for TPAC http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/
16:55:41 [kford]
Agenda+ Resolve configure important items, UA determine relationships.
16:55:43 [kford]
Agenda+ review comments -
16:55:44 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JulSep/0010.html
16:55:46 [kford]
Agenda+ survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/abc/
16:55:47 [kford]
Agenda+ review CSS3
16:55:49 [kford]
Agenda+ Items needing summary
16:55:50 [kford]
**ALL OF GL1 IS COMPLETE!
16:55:52 [kford]
2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4 2.5 2.6 2.7 2.8 2.9 2.10 2.11
16:55:54 [kford]
3.1 3.2 3.3 3.4
16:55:56 [kford]
4.2
16:55:58 [kford]
Agenda+ Continue work on IER items needing content
16:56:00 [kford]
**ALL OF GL1 IS COMPLETE!!
16:56:02 [kford]
2.5.1 discover keystrokes
16:56:04 [kford]
2.7.1 - 7 preference settings
16:56:06 [kford]
2.11.3, 2.11.4 execution placeholder and toggle
16:56:08 [kford]
2.11.6 Stop/Pause/Resume Time-Based Media
16:56:09 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
16:56:10 [kford]
2.11.7 Navigate Time-Based Media
16:56:11 [kford]
2.11.8 Semantic Navigation of Time-Based Media
16:56:13 [kford]
2.11.9 Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media
16:56:15 [kford]
2.11.10 Sizing Playback Viewport: (examples)
16:56:17 [kford]
2.11.11 Scale and position alternative media tracks (examples)
16:56:19 [kford]
2.11.12 Adjust Playback Contrast and Brightness (examples) **ALL GL3 IER ARE COMPLETE!!!
16:56:21 [kford]
4.2.1 Hand-off Focus (intent)
16:56:23 [kford]
4.2.3 Nested user agents (focus) (intent) **ALL OF GL5 IS COMPLETE!!
16:56:25 [kford]
Agenda+ Action Item Review
16:59:22 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
16:59:27 [Jan]
zakim, code?
16:59:29 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
16:59:58 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:00:04 [Zakim]
+??P8
17:00:05 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
17:00:18 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.883.aaaa
17:00:30 [Jan]
zakim, ??P8 is really Jan
17:00:30 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:00:45 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:01:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.609.734.aabb
17:01:31 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:01:34 [Zakim]
+Greg_Lowney
17:02:07 [jeanne]
zakim, aabb is really Mark
17:02:07 [Zakim]
+Mark; got it
17:02:15 [jeanne]
zakim, aaaa is Kelly
17:02:15 [Zakim]
+Kelly; got it
17:02:22 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
17:02:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jim_Allan, Jan, Kelly, Mark, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney
17:02:24 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Greg, Jan, jeanne, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot
17:04:19 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
17:04:19 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
17:04:20 [Zakim]
1. Register for TPAC http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ [from kford]
17:04:23 [Zakim]
2. Resolve configure important items, UA determine relationships. [from kford]
17:04:25 [Zakim]
3. review comments - [from kford]
17:04:26 [Zakim]
4. survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/abc/ [from kford]
17:04:27 [Zakim]
5. review CSS3 [from kford]
17:04:28 [Zakim]
6. Items needing summary [from kford]
17:04:29 [Zakim]
7. Continue work on IER items needing content [from kford]
17:04:30 [Zakim]
8. Action Item Review [from kford]
17:07:19 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
17:08:28 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:09:45 [JAllan]
all: discussing the LCWD of Touch events standard http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-Touch-Events-20110913/
17:09:58 [JAllan]
scribe: jallan
17:11:17 [JAllan]
kp: some utility to touch events. can combine unrelated modes to make user more efficient.
17:12:00 [JAllan]
zakim, open item one
17:12:00 [Zakim]
'one' does not match any agenda item, JAllan
17:12:07 [JAllan]
zakim, open item 1
17:12:07 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Register for TPAC http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/" taken up [from kford]
17:12:30 [Greg]
Does the standard identify touch sources and targets and what specific gestures each supports, e.g. drag, pinch, draw path?
17:13:20 [Greg]
That is, equivalent of identifying drag source and target.
17:14:23 [JAllan]
js: can register without paying.
17:14:35 [JAllan]
several not registered
17:14:54 [JAllan]
... we will have a phone bridge
17:15:12 [JAllan]
kf: attend by phone.
17:16:42 [JAllan]
tpac registration for in person only, jeanne will set up a reg for folks attending by phone.
17:16:58 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 1
17:16:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Register for TPAC http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/, closed
17:16:59 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:17:01 [Zakim]
2. Resolve configure important items, UA determine relationships. [from kford]
17:17:47 [JAllan]
mh: change of affiliation, now with ETS. focus on accessibility. web delivery and device delivery.
17:21:38 [mth]
mth has joined #ua
17:21:43 [JAllan]
in browser irc client http://irc.w3.org
17:22:11 [JAllan]
Zakim, open item 5
17:22:11 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "review CSS3" taken up [from kford]
17:22:56 [JAllan]
js: pf has requested that UAWG review.
17:23:19 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/CSS/Spec_Review
17:23:56 [JAllan]
www.w3.org/css
17:24:50 [JAllan]
Zakim, close item 5
17:24:50 [Zakim]
agendum 5, review CSS3, closed
17:24:51 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:24:52 [Zakim]
2. Resolve configure important items, UA determine relationships. [from kford]
17:25:02 [JAllan]
topic: Mobile a11y
17:26:18 [JAllan]
WAI has requested that UAWG review UAAG for mobile. need sub-group
17:26:48 [Zakim]
-Jan
17:27:58 [JAllan]
should cover smart phone and tablet.
17:29:14 [JAllan]
mobile review participants - mark (tablet), jeanne, kim, jim (?)
17:30:29 [JAllan]
gl: does this concern bandwidth, form factor (small screen), input limitations (small, limited keyboard), local storage
17:31:06 [JAllan]
js: looking specifically at UA on mobile devices (interface, content access).
17:33:20 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
17:33:20 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:33:21 [Zakim]
2. Resolve configure important items, UA determine relationships. [from kford]
17:33:24 [Zakim]
3. review comments - [from kford]
17:33:25 [Zakim]
4. survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/abc/ [from kford]
17:33:26 [Zakim]
6. Items needing summary [from kford]
17:33:27 [Zakim]
7. Continue work on IER items needing content [from kford]
17:33:29 [Zakim]
8. Action Item Review [from kford]
17:33:44 [trackbot]
trackbot has joined #ua
17:34:06 [JAllan]
zakim, open item 4
17:34:06 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/abc/" taken up [from kford]
17:35:37 [JAllan]
topic: 1.7.x Save copies of style sheets:
17:35:39 [JAllan]
1.7.x Save copies of style sheets: The user can save copies of the style sheets referenced by the current page, so that they can edit and load them as user style sheets. (AA)
17:38:07 [JAllan]
gl: wanted the last clause to prevent binary downloads of css.
17:38:43 [JAllan]
ja: perhaps save as 'text' to prevent binary downloads.
17:40:20 [JAllan]
gl: need to be more global. what is the UI for this. user needs ready access to this. user should be able to specify where it is save.
17:41:31 [JAllan]
... this should be included in the EIR. what is the minimum we have to say in the SC/EIR to make it clear what we want the user to be able to do.
17:42:11 [JAllan]
js: webkit implementation UI is good, FF is poor.
17:42:38 [JAllan]
kp: many user don't user tooks because of file management issues. want this to be easy.
17:42:55 [JAllan]
kf: file management, unique to the UA or OS
17:43:13 [JAllan]
kp: if you can't find it, you won't us it.
17:43:51 [JAllan]
ja: e.g. stuff save in 'application data' hidden folder.
17:44:31 [JAllan]
mh: most every browser uses the standard system file handling
17:44:32 [Greg]
My example of a user-unfriendly implementation would be that done by the Session Manager add-in for Firefox. It allows you to save and restore the state of a session or window, and it saves it as a text file, but it's hidden in an obscure location that's not told to the user, and its in a JSON text format that user's cannot easily edit.
17:45:03 [Greg]
s/user's/users/
17:45:20 [JAllan]
ja: is the AAA or AA
17:46:32 [JAllan]
AAA - MH, KF, JR,
17:47:36 [JAllan]
AA - JS, SH
17:48:11 [mth]
WAT http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
17:48:19 [JAllan]
undecided - JA, GL
17:48:26 [JAllan]
AA - KP
17:49:21 [JAllan]
ja: most browsers allow user to save CSS. and their are plugins.
17:50:00 [JAllan]
js: adding to draft
17:50:17 [JAllan]
topic: 1.7y The user agent can inform the user when the author style sheet has changed
17:50:23 [JAllan]
1.7.y The user agent can inform the user when the author style sheet has changed, so they can be warned that they may need to edit their user style sheet accordingly
17:53:07 [JAllan]
kf: what is a change in the CSS?
17:53:23 [JAllan]
gl: specific css properties.
17:53:44 [JAllan]
kf: not happening.
17:54:35 [JAllan]
mh: mod to style sheet. if user made specific css for app, then author changes css, and info disappears, then what?
17:54:54 [JAllan]
js: user CSS is tough, don't want to change.
17:55:27 [JAllan]
mh: but what if info vanishes and you don't know because of user css.
17:55:55 [JAllan]
js: on big sites, css is tweaked weekly, most invisible to the end user.
17:56:29 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:56:30 [JAllan]
kp: if you at least have the info then you can do something about.
17:57:01 [JAllan]
kf: very technical, very difficult to compare documents.
17:57:59 [JAllan]
mh: since I was pushing this on the last call. need to adjust the ier.
17:58:29 [JAllan]
gl: perhaps mark can create scenarios. there may be a need.
17:59:01 [JAllan]
ja: suggest, talking with Wayne Dick in CA
18:00:06 [JAllan]
action: mark to come back with proposal for diff of css by UA or kill the SC
18:00:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-614 - Come back with proposal for diff of css by UA or kill the SC [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2011-09-22].
18:00:14 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
18:00:16 [Zakim]
-Mark
18:00:49 [jeanne]
action: Jeanne to add new SC 1.7.x to document. See minutes of 15 September
18:00:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-615 - Add new SC 1.7.x to document. See minutes of 15 September [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-09-22].
18:00:51 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 4
18:00:51 [Zakim]
agendum 4, survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/abc/, closed
18:00:54 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:00:56 [Zakim]
2. Resolve configure important items, UA determine relationships. [from kford]
18:01:10 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
18:01:10 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
18:01:11 [Zakim]
2. Resolve configure important items, UA determine relationships. [from kford]
18:01:12 [Zakim]
3. review comments - [from kford]
18:01:13 [Zakim]
6. Items needing summary [from kford]
18:01:14 [Zakim]
7. Continue work on IER items needing content [from kford]
18:01:15 [Zakim]
8. Action Item Review [from kford]
18:03:04 [JAllan]
zakim: open item 3
18:03:06 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JulSep/0073.html
18:03:23 [JAllan]
http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/public/UAAG_2-1Comments-8-19-2011.html
18:05:52 [JAllan]
he was reviewing http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110718/
18:08:07 [JAllan]
reviewing first comment: Does the rendering include tool tips? Visual readers with low vision (VR/LV) need alternative text for icons especially. Currently the "title" attribute is displayed as a tooltip. However, since the there is no guideline mandating use of "title" , tooltips may or may not be present in WCAG conformant documents.
18:09:34 [JAllan]
gl: is this about UI or content? 'title' not well supported by AT or speech input interface, nor touch interface.
18:10:19 [JAllan]
... have address this by saying everything should be accessible by keyboard, do we need to say more.
18:10:54 [JAllan]
... if he reads this and is not sure that the GLs apply to tooltips...do we need say more
18:12:54 [JAllan]
kf: tooltip from keyboard hasn't happened yet in UA.
18:13:27 [JAllan]
gl: tooltip is only used a couple of times in our document.
18:13:59 [JAllan]
ja: thinks browsers will leave it up to the author to write JS to make tooltips keyboard accessible.
18:14:22 [JAllan]
js: perhaps we should answer by saying how we have covered it.
18:16:00 [Greg]
It looks like 1.1 gives users lots of power over when to replace elements with their alternative content, but nothing about allowing the user to have the alternative content presented to them in a transient fashion e.g. by tooltips or other popups when requested.
18:16:42 [JAllan]
kp: tool tips used by mouse. usually provides keyboard short cuts, but mouse users don't need it. keyboard users need it, but can't get at it.
18:17:15 [JAllan]
gl: tooltips may need to be a new SC.
18:18:30 [JAllan]
kp perhaps need a tooltip example in 2.1.1
18:21:15 [Greg]
Dick has low vision, and can't identify an icon so wants to be able to read its alternative text. Most users would be able to hover the mouse over the icon and have its alternative text displayed as a pop-up or tooltip, but since Dick does not use a mouse, he can activate a command that allows him to use the tab key to move the keyboard focus to elements that have alternative content and...
18:21:16 [Greg]
...then press another key to cause the pop-up to be displayed.
18:23:00 [JAllan]
ja: but since Dick does not use a mouse, when he arrows or tabs over an item the 'title' element will display as a tooltip.
18:24:58 [JAllan]
discussing problems with tooltip popup in the OS.
18:25:16 [Greg]
Discussions of the pros and cons of automatically displaying tooltips as the user moves the focus with the keyboard.
18:26:22 [JAllan]
gl: we don't need 1 UI to solve all problems.
18:26:52 [JAllan]
kf: uses tooltips from the keyboard in the OS as an argument for tooltips in the browser.
18:27:12 [Greg]
Dick has low vision, and can't identify an icon so wants to be able to read its alternative text. Most users would be able to hover the mouse over the icon and have its alternative text displayed as a pop-up ortooltip, but since Dick does not use a mouse, he can activate a command that allows him to use the tab key to move the keyboard focus to elements that have alternative content. Then,...
18:27:14 [Greg]
...when he tabs to the icon, the browser may automatically display the "hover" tooltip, or allow him to press a key to have it displayed.
18:27:43 [JAllan]
kf: notes: OS tool tips can be modified in the OS, or turned off
18:29:05 [JAllan]
ja: problem with LV using magnification, when try to read tool tip and move mouse the tooltip vanishes
18:29:30 [KimPatch]
Charlie is a speech-recognition user who cannot use his hands to control his computer. It is much easier for him to use keyboard shortcuts then click on an icon in a new program. He needs to be able to see tooltips to discover keyboard shortcuts without having to use the mouse.
18:30:23 [JAllan]
gl: my example should be for 2.1.1
18:31:32 [Zakim]
-Kelly
18:35:30 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to add the above examples to 2.1.1 Change the user names.
18:35:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-616 - Add the above examples to 2.1.1 Change the user names. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-09-22].
18:35:40 [mth]
tried to call in again... conference is restricted
18:36:03 [jeanne]
zakim, room for 3?
18:36:04 [Zakim]
ok, jeanne; conference Team_(ua)18:36Z scheduled with code 82942 (uawg2) for 60 minutes until 1936Z
18:36:24 [jeanne]
mark, use this code 82942. I'll be right there.
18:36:25 [mth]
82942 ok
18:37:37 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
18:37:42 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:38:09 [Zakim]
-Greg_Lowney
18:38:10 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
18:38:10 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:38:12 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jim_Allan, +1.425.883.aaaa, Jan, +1.609.734.aabb, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Mark, Kelly, Kim_Patch
18:38:33 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:38:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:39:03 [JAllan]
rrsagent, set logs public
18:39:46 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
18:39:46 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-ua-actions.rdf :
18:39:46 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: mark to come back with proposal for diff of css by UA or kill the SC [1]
18:39:46 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-ua-irc#T18-00-06
18:39:46 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to add new SC 1.7.x to document. See minutes of 15 September [2]
18:39:46 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-ua-irc#T18-00-49
18:39:46 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add the above examples to 2.1.1 Change the user names. [3]
18:39:46 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-ua-irc#T18-35-30