IRC log of tagmem on 2011-09-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

08:09:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
08:09:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-tagmem-irc
08:09:08 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
08:09:08 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #tagmem
08:09:10 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be TAG
08:09:10 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
08:09:11 [trackbot]
Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference
08:09:11 [trackbot]
Date: 15 September 2011
08:10:28 [timbl]
Noah: See agenda. Ashok wrapping up Client-Side State work.
08:10:43 [timbl]
for client-side storage, how much do we want to do on this?
08:10:59 [timbl]
Ahok: You have looked at slides and a vey brief write-up
08:11:27 [timbl]
Noah: Jeff Jaffe asked us to give him alerts of upcoming possible crisis issues.
08:11:52 [Ashok]
Ashok has joined #tagmem
08:12:11 [timbl]
... Privacy and Security we have all felt we are high priority for the web, but not clear whether TAG should engage and how.
08:12:51 [timbl]
... After lunch, we step back and declare our overall direction again. Should we do that earlier?
08:14:25 [timbl]
[general warm noises about the agenda, and agreee to wrap at 3pm]
08:14:56 [jar]
jar has joined #tagmem
08:15:38 [timbl]
masinter: I was rethinking whether we should do a finding on MIME on the Web.
08:18:36 [timbl]
Noah: Ok, we will fit that discussion in.
08:18:41 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/clientsidestorage.html
08:18:51 [timbl]
topic: Client-side storage
08:19:10 [timbl]
Noah: See product page [linked above]
08:22:46 [timbl]
Ashok: We can write a story about the history of how this came to be, and I have some of that done.
08:22:56 [timbl]
... But then the question, what to use it for?
08:23:14 [timbl]
Two cases: You ahev an eisting webapp, which you can now usee offline.
08:23:39 [timbl]
In this case, the behaviour of the app does not change.
08:24:00 [timbl]
basically, the local storage is acting like a big cache -- controlable but a cache.
08:25:09 [timbl]
masinter: I see people miving to HTTP hibi protoocol, bypasing the proxuy infrastructure ..
08:26:07 [timbl]
... is this a trdeoff between doing this caching at he app design level, or at a system, evel?
08:27:18 [timbl]
s/evel/level/
08:27:19 [Ashok]
Cache by user or by application
08:28:12 [timbl]
jar: Good for user to have a model of what is going to work offline. With caching, is there is assurance that that some sort of info will be available for browsing offline, then that can be an arch'l requirement.
08:28:49 [timbl]
We would like to then know the visible impact of this class of solutions.
08:29:12 [timbl]
Ashok. You mean, you will require data for an app -- you can get it in diff't ways?
08:29:15 [JeniT]
JeniT has joined #tagmem
08:29:53 [timbl]
jar: More a question of failures being predictable. With current proxy caches, there is no contract aout hat will work offline.
08:30:37 [timbl]
... Google mail uses client side storage to provide dependable behaviour of offline storage.
08:31:08 [noah]
We are discussing http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/clientsidestorage.html
08:32:09 [timbl]
RRSAgent, pointer?
08:32:09 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-tagmem-irc#T08-32-09
08:32:36 [masinter]
the title of the product page says "Web Application Storage" and not "Client Side Storage". I like "Web Application Storage" better, because we need to talk about the tradeoffs between local storage and local caches of remote storage
08:32:59 [masinter]
and the question is whether hybi also has a caching architecture
08:33:05 [timbl]
Noah: The model is there are HTTP proxy caches, and this system (client-side storage) should be able to work in that mode. But also it should be able to
08:33:14 [timbl]
- control so make sure right stuff is there
08:33:24 [timbl]
- space management , relation to other apps
08:33:29 [timbl]
- this is writable offline
08:33:36 [timbl]
This last one is the biggie.
08:33:53 [masinter]
hybi aka "The Web Socket Protocol"
08:34:02 [timbl]
To build things like emial, you have to be abl eto change the web though your cache when you get back online.
08:34:17 [timbl]
I would like to see the innovation there.
08:34:30 [timbl]
Maybe there is a=some agent-based intention-to-update story.
08:34:36 [timbl]
That would work as on and offline.
08:34:37 [timbl]
q+
08:34:44 [JeniT]
s/emial/email/
08:34:49 [JeniT]
s/abl eto/able to/
08:35:01 [timbl]
Thi update capability is hte fundamental thing whoch you lose when you use a cache.
08:35:26 [timbl]
Ashok: There is a spec from the web caching guys which gives the user control of the cache.
08:36:02 [JeniT]
s/Thi/The/
08:36:06 [JeniT]
s/hte/the/
08:36:11 [JeniT]
s/whoch/which/
08:36:16 [noah]
TBL: This fits very nicely with the read/write data model. I've described it in a design issue note.
08:36:24 [Ashok]
Tim: Fits nicely with the read/write data story
08:36:31 [noah]
TBL: The changes all go through little SPARQL updates, which are posted.
08:36:45 [Ashok]
... easy to spool up
08:38:03 [timbl]
Tim: The only thing you can't spopol of cousre is a lock, an atoic thing where you ned to fail if there is interference from another user or another app.
08:38:16 [JeniT]
s/spopol/spool/
08:38:20 [timbl]
(See http://www.w3.org/ReadWriteLinkedData )
08:38:25 [JeniT]
s/cousre/course/
08:38:31 [JeniT]
s/atoic/atomic/
08:38:38 [JeniT]
s/ned/need/
08:38:41 [timbl]
Noah: Are we gueuing up a couple of posts, or a calendar entry, logically?
08:38:57 [JeniT]
s/gueuing/queuing/
08:39:16 [Ashok]
Noah: What level of abstraction? Post or book aitline seat?
08:39:29 [JeniT]
s/aitline/airline/
08:39:31 [Ashok]
s/aitline/airline/
08:46:26 [timbl]
Tim: RPC systems had this problem that when the operation was transparently remote it was good for the dev but horrible for the usr, who would just see the app lock when an offline or online problem happened. The app was not aware of differetn offline and online errors. So web apps which use explicit app-level transfer can be written to be much more user-friendly with errors. Compare then with sync between a Mac an a server wen the mac will run over the
08:46:28 [timbl]
Tim: RPC systems had this problem that when the operation was transparently remote it was good for the dev but horrible for the usr, who would just see the app lock when an offline or online problem happened. The app was not aware of differetn offline and online errors. So web apps which use explicit app-level transfer can be written to be much more user-friendly with errors. Compare then with sync between a Mac an a server wen the mac will run over the
08:46:29 [timbl]
Tim: RPC systems had this problem that when the operation was transparently remote it was good for the dev but horrible for the usr, who would just see the app lock when an offline or online problem happened. The app was not aware of differetn offline and online errors. So web apps which use explicit app-level transfer can be written to be much more user-friendly with errors. Compare then with sync between a Mac an a server wen the mac will run over the
08:46:46 [timbl]
Tim: RPC systems had this problem that when the operation was transparently remote it was good for the dev but horrible for the usr, who would just see the app lock when an offline or online problem happened. The app was not aware of differetn offline and online errors. So web apps which use explicit app-level transfer can be written to be much more user-friendly with errors. Compare then with sync between a Mac an a server wen the mac will run over the
08:46:47 [timbl]
Tim: RPC systems had this problem that when the operation was transparently remote it was good for the dev but horrible for the usr, who would just see the app lock when an offline or online problem happened. The app was not aware of differetn offline and online errors. So web apps which use explicit app-level transfer can be written to be much more user-friendly with errors. Compare then with sync between a Mac an a server wen the mac will run over the
08:46:53 [timbl]
wweqfkjqwklef
08:46:55 [timbl]
Tim: RPC systems had this problem that when the operation was transparently remote it was good for the dev but horrible for the usr, who would just see the app lock when an offline or online problem happened. The app was not aware of differetn offline and online errors. So web apps which use explicit app-level transfer can be written to be much more user-friendly with errors. Compare then with sync between a Mac an a server wen the mac will run over the
08:46:56 [timbl]
Tim: RPC systems had this problem that when the operation was transparently remote it was good for the dev but horrible for the usr, who would just see the app lock when an offline or online problem happened. The app was not aware of differetn offline and online errors. So web apps which use explicit app-level transfer can be written to be much more user-friendly with errors. Compare then with sync between a Mac an a server wen the mac will run over the
08:47:11 [masinter]
I'm moving toward wanting TAG findings to be more about summarizing the architectural principles nascent in what's going on rather than being experts and publishing our own thoughs
08:47:39 [noah]
I agree with Larry on that bit
08:47:44 [timbl]
operations which were spooled, and where there is a conflict, it knows enough of the semantics of what has happened to ask a user which version of a calendar she wants. That requires the sync program being coed to understand al the semantcis of each type of object which can by synced. Maybe we have with offline read-write linked data a happy edium, where it is easier to make a generic sync gadget because the semantics of what is being stored is open and expli
08:47:54 [timbl]
explicit.
08:47:58 [masinter]
the main concern i have about storage is that the caching for web sockets / hybi doesn't fit into the previous architectural model we had in mind
08:48:08 [noah]
Except that where there are clear principles, like "identify things with URIs", we should say so clearly and without hesitation.
08:48:30 [timbl]
Ahok: This has the characteristic that you can store stuff, that you cna store parts of to different web sites. This is new
08:49:04 [masinter]
once you move into hybi, there aren't any URIs for anything other than the service i don't think, and certainly not for data or intermediate states
08:49:23 [timbl]
The first way, then is like a cache, and the second way this is used is this new capability to write different things back to different web sites.
08:49:24 [masinter]
maybe we should invite some folks to come talk to us
08:49:53 [timbl]
s/hibi/hybi/
08:50:14 [timbl]
masinter: [see IRC above]
08:50:26 [timbl]
Are we mssing something in the move to web sockets etc?
08:51:00 [timbl]
We are losing visibility by the main system of the dta, and we lose URIs for tings.
08:51:17 [jar]
you mean: what might happen if you attempt a web socket connection when you're off line? (for example)
08:51:59 [timbl]
When people use hybi, then there is no URI.
08:52:11 [masinter]
q?
08:52:36 [masinter]
q+ to talk about product page....
08:53:20 [timbl]
q-
08:53:31 [timbl]
Noah: What is the priority of this work, then?
08:53:54 [masinter]
q-
08:54:31 [timbl]
Tracker, new poll
08:54:32 [noah]
Preference poll: with respect to storage work, should we commit to 1) serious project work now 2) I know enough to say not high priority for 6 mos to a year 3) go for a month or two fact finding and decide in telcon
08:54:36 [noah]
HT = 3
08:54:45 [noah]
DA = 2.5
08:54:56 [noah]
JT = 3
08:55:01 [noah]
PL = 3
08:55:06 [masinter]
larry = 1
08:55:06 [noah]
TB = 3
08:56:56 [timbl]
Masinter: This is happening, Web sites are bring rewritten now. This is the time to point arch'l choices they may not have thought about.
08:57:18 [timbl]
People are makingvery local decisions, now, and it is timely for us to get up to speed on this.
08:57:42 [timbl]
Noah: Good for us to get priorities fixed at f2f
08:57:58 [timbl]
TB = 1
08:58:11 [JeniT]
I agree :)
08:58:48 [noah]
TBL: Larry is convincing. And besides, I'm interested in how we manage resources.
08:59:45 [timbl]
Tim: This is intersting because it overlaps with a pet want of mine, good user tools for resource management, grouping apps/things/sites/whatever by task, and allocating disk ram, cpu, data access, etc to them.
09:00:11 [JeniT]
I wonder whether this ties into the Device API question we got at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Sep/0002.html
09:00:30 [masinter]
i'd like to look at how to get linked data and link relations into a world that is dominated by websocket access
09:00:45 [timbl]
Ashok : maybe we should start by setting out the architectural issues.
09:01:39 [masinter]
Jeni: I don't see the connection with the Device API question
09:01:41 [timbl]
Ashok: How can I pcik the brains fo W3C staff?
09:02:15 [JeniT]
masinter: it's asking whether "devices" (local data on a computer) should be accessed using an HTTP protocol
09:02:21 [masinter]
Jeni: looking again...
09:02:25 [timbl]
Tim: Do a Project Review. Some thursday 9-10:30 am EST typically. Talk to amy@w3.or.
09:02:47 [timbl]
You will need a presentation and a chair and a scribe
09:02:55 [JeniT]
masinter: it was just a vague thought
09:03:05 [JeniT]
s/pcik/pick/
09:03:17 [timbl]
and a notice explaining the scope of it and reason for it and objectives to send out a week or 3 in advance.
09:03:20 [masinter]
Jeni: maybe it's the same question for something other than storage
09:03:41 [masinter]
q?
09:04:33 [timbl]
Noah: Proposal is that a finding would be timed as final in July
09:04:50 [timbl]
Masinter: I want to work on issues and good proiactices, and the issues first please.
09:06:29 [timbl]
Noah: [edits product page]
09:07:04 [timbl]
masinter: The title "Web App Storage" is better than "Client-Side Storage" IMHO
09:11:07 [timbl]
[discussion of possible deliverables and timing]
09:13:48 [timbl]
Noah: Edits "Key deliverables with dates"
09:15:40 [masinter]
I wonder whether this ties into the Device API question we got at
09:15:40 [masinter]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Sep/0002.html
09:16:59 [masinter]
https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2011-July/017621.html
09:17:57 [JeniT]
masinter, thanks, that's exactly the relationship that was niggling me
09:18:39 [masinter]
Jeni: yes, thanks for raising this, might extend the scope of this product topic but i think that's ok
09:20:14 [masinter]
The question of whether the phone's calendar is just a local cache of my 'real' calendar stored remotely... if you use the HTTP/REST view the same app would work independently of that
09:47:59 [ht]
\scribenick ht
09:48:19 [ht]
scribenick: ht
09:48:45 [ht]
scribe: Henry S. Thompson
09:48:53 [ht]
Resuming after break
09:50:26 [ht]
Topic: Track high priority developments for Jeff Jaffe [http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/09/13-agenda#jeffreport]
09:50:42 [ht]
NM: [Recaps the background]
09:51:13 [ht]
NM: I committed to produce something in October
09:51:18 [masinter]
q+
09:51:19 [ht]
NM: I will be asking for help
09:51:23 [ht]
ack next
09:52:10 [ht]
LM: We should take this seriously -- we are rarely asked for anything from W3C management
09:52:36 [ht]
LM: We may not need to generate this list, we could just prioritise and summarise
09:52:45 [ht]
NM: Where would the initial list come from
09:52:54 [ht]
LM: We could request input on the public list
09:53:03 [masinter]
and from the membership
09:53:22 [masinter]
s/generate the list/generate the entire list/
09:53:35 [masinter]
s/could just prioritize/could prioritize/
09:53:49 [ht]
s/generate this list/generate the entire list/
09:55:53 [masinter]
i would start with trying to keep a web site / wiki page / etc. listing technical issues of concern to the web community.....
09:55:54 [ht]
NM: We could put out a public call for help in doing a better job in tracking/anticipating emerging issues of importance to the architecture of the Web
09:56:18 [masinter]
i'd put out an initial list and invite community to add
09:56:33 [ht]
TBL: "Upcoming train wrecks" as the title, not about "doing better", just doing it at all
09:57:05 [ht]
LM: I was thinking of putting out an initial list, asking for additions, better than a blank sheet of paper
09:57:15 [ht]
LM: E.g. I18N vs. CSS
09:57:24 [ht]
LM: E.g. Hybi bypassing REST
09:57:35 [ht]
LM: Microdata vs. RDFa
09:57:41 [ht]
LM: Persistence
09:58:29 [ht]
TBL: Move from phone apps to web apps
09:58:50 [ht]
TBL: ... What more do we need to make this work
09:59:05 [masinter]
can we give an executive summary of hte issues, who the stakeholders are, and why that is an issue
09:59:18 [ht]
TBL: ... In particular, for example, the fact that web apps can't access the web is a real problem
09:59:31 [masinter]
why is it a "potential train wreck"
09:59:40 [ht]
DKA: How architect device APIs -- RESTful/????
09:59:43 [timbl]
but all the other things they need to do wich phone apps can and they can't yet
10:00:24 [ht]
LM: Part of my remit at my job is to identify potential train wrecks between our products and standards
10:01:20 [ht]
... I've done this at various levels, from dozens of pages down to a simple summary, and even red/yellow/green light labels
10:02:03 [masinter]
list of issues, but would also like criteria of why they're a CEO-level problem
10:02:51 [masinter]
Canvas and SVG
10:03:01 [ht]
NM: We need to be careful to avoid getting stuck on careful analysis, let's continue just listing issues at first
10:03:24 [masinter]
W3C and IETF scope
10:03:29 [masinter]
registries and IANA
10:04:02 [masinter]
XML and HTML ... task force report?
10:04:36 [masinter]
HTML.next
10:05:08 [masinter]
already known on the list: privacy
10:05:49 [ht]
HST: We don't need to list things already on the wider W3C priority list(s)
10:08:18 [ht]
AM: We got taken by surprise a few times in the past
10:08:43 [ht]
... and so we tried having a standing item on telcons for "Anything new we should keep in mind?"
10:09:17 [ht]
NM: I'll try that a bit, maybe
10:10:15 [ht]
TBL: Should we remove JJ from the way we think about this, and just make it a TAG job?
10:10:26 [ht]
JAR: Frequency?
10:10:39 [ht]
NM: twice yearly was the request
10:10:50 [ht]
JAR: Make it just a newsletter?
10:11:21 [ht]
NM: Any more items for the list?
10:12:17 [noah]
HT: There is this notion of "the death of protocols".
10:12:19 [noah]
NM: Meaning?
10:12:52 [masinter]
this is the concern that Hybi taking over not only HTTP but everything else, including mail, etc.
10:13:24 [noah]
HT: HTML5 represents a kind of disintermediation. In the past, to create an app you would design some sort of protocol and associated RFCs would be developed. Now, you just design an XML document type and use HTTP, and the standards process gets skipped, because we have less of a tradition of rigorous standardization that level of protocol.
10:13:49 [ht]
LM: So e.g. with HyBI, being 2-directional it replaces HTTP
10:14:20 [ht]
LM: Also, scripting now handles the 'protocols', so the network middle-ware (proxies, caches, etc.) have no idea what's going by
10:15:02 [ht]
NM: Right, so what used to be a protocol is now being, or could be, tunneled through HTTP or HyBI
10:15:07 [masinter]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/175 is an administrative process issue
10:15:18 [masinter]
versioning
10:16:09 [Yves]
not only protocols, but also formats, as the libraries running in the browser "VM" are starting to replace document format definitions
10:16:09 [ht]
HST: I.e. a standard without end
10:20:14 [ht]
JAR: OData
10:23:18 [jar]
hhalpin message connecting odata to rdf http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2011Jan/0021.html
10:23:58 [masinter]
well: http://masinter.blogspot.com/2011/06/irreconcilable-differences.html
10:24:13 [masinter]
that was my list of standards issues
10:24:54 [ht]
Topic: Privacy http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/545 ACTION-545
10:25:46 [masinter]
coordinate with http://www.w3.org/2011/07/appsecwg-charter.html
10:25:47 [ht]
s/for Jeff Jaffe/for Jeff Jaffe ACTION-568/
10:26:33 [ht]
Also Web Apps/Security [http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/09/13-agenda#security]
10:26:56 [masinter]
and http://www.w3.org/Privacy/
10:27:05 [ht]
NM: We need to decide if we are going to take either of these seriously and put resources in, or explicitly move them to the back burner
10:27:33 [ht]
AM: Should we try to spell out the landscape in these areas
10:27:45 [ht]
... using a Wiki, ask other experts to contribute
10:27:53 [masinter]
with other policy-based important initiatives like internationalization & accessibility, we rely on 'architectural' activities to take the lead, and for the TAG as more of a coordination body rather than doing the heavy lifting
10:28:34 [masinter]
Tobias Gondrom <tobias.gondrom@gondrom.org>
10:28:50 [ht]
... Particularly in Security, ask Tobias Gondrom for help
10:29:09 [ht]
NM: What is the goal, what would be success wrt this Wiki
10:29:33 [ht]
AM: If it spells out what the state-of-the-art is for Security on the Web
10:29:46 [masinter]
W3C just started http://www.w3.org/2011/08/appsecwg-charter.html Web Application Security Working Group
10:29:46 [noah]
q+ masinter
10:30:17 [noah]
q+ noah to say concerned about roadmaps and overviews vs. hot button issues
10:30:30 [ht]
JAR: Alternative to SOA, a roadmap spelling out the parts of W3C that connect up to what security questions
10:30:45 [ht]
... compare that to the received WebArch position might be
10:30:51 [noah]
ack next
10:30:58 [ht]
q+ to mention wikipedia effect
10:31:10 [ht]
LM: W3C just chartered a new Security WG
10:31:30 [ht]
... We have I18N and Accessibility for other cross-cutting/horizontal issues
10:31:44 [ht]
... This maybe is the right model for Security and Privacy as well
10:32:01 [timbl]
q+
10:32:07 [noah]
ack next
10:32:09 [ht]
YL: The new Security WG has good joint membership with the relevant IETF WGs
10:32:09 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to say concerned about roadmaps and overviews vs. hot button issues
10:32:32 [ht]
NM: Is there a way we could follow their work more closely
10:32:45 [ht]
... Why should we try to lead in this area given that they are there now
10:32:47 [masinter]
review ongoing work and maybe a roadmap?
10:32:53 [ht]
... Someone track this?
10:33:13 [ht]
NM: Do we know how they are running -- f2f, telcons, ?
10:33:30 [ht]
LM: Their scope is not all aspects of Web Security
10:34:19 [ht]
... The most valuable next step, per John Kemp's work, was an analysis of what's happening vs. what W3C WGs need, to identify gaps
10:34:34 [ht]
NM: Scope is broad, isn't it
10:34:47 [ht]
LM: Explicitly its WebApps
10:35:01 [ht]
... but this can't help ramifying
10:35:34 [ht]
TBL: Security issues by definition are rapidly changing, the arms race model
10:35:34 [masinter]
i'm thinking of a roadmap kind of like the broader issue list we were talking about earlier, but specifically for security issues and approaches. That's what JK was trying to get at.
10:36:03 [ht]
TBL: Tracking IETF is really important, they're doing a lot
10:36:33 [ht]
TBL: Not sure about a roadmap that involves anything like an ontology -- that's precisely what changes all the time, and we couldn't keep up
10:36:44 [ht]
LM: [as above]
10:36:56 [ht]
NM: Who might take that on?
10:37:07 [ht]
AM: To do what?
10:37:52 [masinter]
solicit resources to help generate that list?
10:38:21 [DKA]
DKA has joined #tagmem
10:38:22 [ht]
NM: Help the W3C community identify (not a cosmic security taxonomy) an inventory of security issues for W3C WGs, sort and prioritise, and identify ones that are and are not being addressed (in W3C or IETF or ...)
10:38:31 [ht]
s/issues/concerns/
10:38:43 [ht]
NM: This is a big job
10:39:06 [ht]
LM: Starved for time
10:39:24 [ht]
... Maybe this is on our list of potential train wrecks
10:39:41 [ht]
NM: Surely a big potential vulnerability
10:40:03 [masinter]
s/LM: Starved/NM: Starved/
10:40:08 [ht]
HST: This is more than a day a week
10:40:19 [masinter]
s/... Maybe this/LM: Maybe this/
10:40:43 [ht]
TBL: Survey of issues, or of organizations
10:41:07 [ht]
... I don't see anyone around the table doing the first
10:41:26 [ht]
... So maybe going meta -- if we were looking for a group to do this, where would we look?
10:41:33 [ht]
... Existing group, or need a new one?
10:42:01 [ht]
NM: Proposal?
10:42:14 [ht]
TBL: To make a map of the entities (people, orgs) involved
10:42:52 [ht]
NM: Same old same old: good ideas, no one for which this is more important than the things they are already doing
10:43:21 [ht]
YL: IETF Security Area is an umbrella for all the security stuff at IETF, so they sort of have this responsibility
10:43:38 [ht]
TBL: Get the Area head to come talk to us?
10:43:52 [ht]
TBL: Co-chair is on the new WebSec WG at W3C
10:43:59 [ht]
s/TBL:/YL:/
10:44:25 [ht]
JAR: Are they covering things up to the level we might think of as WebArch?
10:44:58 [ht]
YL: Level crossing in the stack is what the IETF Area and WebSec are aiming to coordinate on
10:45:32 [ht]
NM: I am not hearing that Security is a major area of work for the TAG
10:46:17 [ht]
... It is still in order to track something at a lower level, but we don't have a high-level goal that we are working toward
10:46:33 [ht]
NM: "The TAG has no 6-month goal in Security"
10:46:42 [ht]
... That makes me unhappy
10:46:52 [ht]
TBL: I don't agree, I think it's not for us to do
10:47:31 [ht]
s/agree/agree that it's bad for us to pull back from that/
10:47:48 [ht]
TBL: If IETF come to us and say there's a WebArch issue, perhaps
10:47:50 [masinter]
q+ to suggest a goal to ask for a web security roadmap
10:48:00 [ht]
q- ht
10:48:40 [ht]
NM: We could get to a point where we could contribute, albeit it might take two years -- I'm sorry we can't find a way to do that
10:48:56 [ht]
ack timbl
10:49:09 [ht]
ack masinter
10:49:09 [Zakim]
masinter, you wanted to suggest a goal to ask for a web security roadmap
10:49:24 [noah]
ACTION-341?
10:49:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-341 -- Yves Lafon to follow up with Thomas about security review activities for HTML5 -- due 2011-05-10 -- OPEN
10:49:24 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/341
10:49:49 [ht]
LM: We could ask for a review of what's happening in the W3C security groups, and the gaps with respect to their needs
10:50:01 [ht]
HST: Whom, and why would we do it?
10:50:19 [ht]
NM: Background education is in scope at any time
10:50:23 [noah]
q?
10:50:37 [ht]
LM: It might get us to push for more resources from W3C in this area
10:51:29 [noah]
close ACTION-341
10:51:29 [trackbot]
ACTION-341 Follow up with Thomas about security review activities for HTML5 closed
10:51:43 [noah]
ACTION-344?
10:51:43 [trackbot]
ACTION-344 -- Jonathan Rees to alert TAG chair when CORS and/or UMP goes to LC to trigger security review -- due 2011-09-13 -- OPEN
10:51:43 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/344
10:52:38 [noah]
JAR: We still want to review this.
10:52:47 [noah]
NM: Even given that the Web Sec group is there to do it.
10:52:50 [noah]
JAR: Yes.
10:53:20 [noah]
ACTION-344 Due 2012-01-01
10:53:20 [trackbot]
ACTION-344 Alert TAG chair when CORS and/or UMP goes to LC to trigger security review due date now 2012-01-01
10:53:30 [noah]
ACTION-515?
10:53:30 [trackbot]
ACTION-515 -- Larry Masinter to (as trackbot proxy for John) who will publish http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/security-web.html, slightly cleaned up, with help from Noah and Larry -- due 2011-07-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
10:53:30 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/515
10:54:17 [ht]
q+ to suggest we forward this doc to WebSec
10:54:44 [noah]
ack next
10:54:44 [DKA]
DKA has joined #tagmem
10:54:46 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to suggest we forward this doc to WebSec
10:55:33 [ht]
HST: A new WG often gets input, which they may or may not take forward
10:55:47 [ht]
... I think that would be helpful for this doc, send it to WebSec on this basis
10:56:06 [noah]
close ACTION-515
10:56:06 [trackbot]
ACTION-515 (as trackbot proxy for John) who will publish http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/security-web.html, slightly cleaned up, with help from Noah and Larry closed
10:56:37 [ht]
s/input/more-or-less informal submissions as input/
10:57:34 [ht]
[Note to scribe -- clarify WebSec (IETF) vs. WebAppSec (W3C)]
10:58:54 [noah]
ACTION \: Larry to find an appropriate way to make available http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/security-web.html to the Web App Sec working group
10:58:54 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - \
10:59:04 [noah]
ACTION: Larry to find an appropriate way to make available http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/security-web.html to the Web App Sec working group
10:59:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-607 - Find an appropriate way to make available http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/security-web.html to the Web App Sec working group [on Larry Masinter - due 2011-09-22].
10:59:17 [noah]
ACTION-516?
10:59:17 [trackbot]
ACTION-516 -- Yves Lafon to talk with Thomas Roessler about organizing W3C architecture work on security -- due 2011-07-19 -- OPEN
10:59:17 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/516
10:59:29 [noah]
close ACTION-516
10:59:30 [trackbot]
ACTION-516 Talk with Thomas Roessler about organizing W3C architecture work on security closed
10:59:38 [noah]
ACTION-554?
10:59:38 [trackbot]
ACTION-554 -- Noah Mendelsohn to formulate product page for TAG work on security including John Kemp security draft Due: 2011-05-24 -- due 2011-09-15 -- OPEN
10:59:38 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/554
11:00:53 [noah]
NM: Larry do you want discussion of ACTION-516
11:01:12 [noah]
LM: To (Yves): what about the work that's beyond the scope of Web App Sec?
11:01:19 [noah]
YL: If you have a topic in mind we can talk about it.
11:02:04 [noah]
NM: I think we decided not to do the sort of security work that merits a product page. So, closing ACTION-554
11:02:10 [noah]
close ACTION-554
11:02:10 [trackbot]
ACTION-554 Formulate product page for TAG work on security including John Kemp security draft Due: 2011-05-24 closed
11:02:19 [noah]
ACTION-33?
11:02:19 [trackbot]
ACTION-33 -- Henry Thompson to revise naming challenges story in response to Dec 2008 F2F discussion -- due 2011-08-10 -- OPEN
11:02:19 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/33
11:04:01 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to schedule telcon discussion of TAG goals on privacy Due: 2011-10-01
11:04:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-608 - Schedule telcon discussion of TAG goals on privacy Due: 2011-10-01 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-09-22].
11:04:12 [noah]
TLR: Thomas is the domain lead
11:04:34 [noah]
LM: There's an organizational meeting coming up for the Do Not Track WG.
11:37:17 [masinter]
masinter has joined #tagmem
12:12:52 [masinter]
masinter has joined #tagmem
12:13:50 [plinss_]
plinss_ has joined #tagmem
12:13:51 [masinter]
scribenick: masinter
12:13:55 [DKA]
DKA has joined #tagmem
12:14:11 [masinter]
topic: Review TAG Priorities for 2011
12:14:12 [jar]
jar has joined #tagmem
12:18:54 [masinter]
Note: scribing cleanup: Henry Thursday, Jonathan Tuesday, Dan Wednesday
12:19:12 [noah]
noah has joined #tagmem
12:19:20 [ht]
ht has joined #tagmem
12:20:02 [Ashok]
Ashok has joined #tagmem
12:20:32 [masinter]
noah: framing priorities discussion http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/
12:20:46 [masinter]
noah: trap: doing a good job on the wrong things
12:22:08 [masinter]
noah: we're not doing that but we might, we should look at our products
12:30:55 [masinter]
((noah editing products page with discussion))
12:31:31 [masinter]
((HTML5 last call moved to 'other active projects'))
12:31:54 [masinter]
((Jeni no longer on Web Application State))
12:36:10 [masinter]
((etc, not capturing individual edits))
12:37:34 [masinter]
((MIME and the web looking at finding by 31 December, draft for review by 30 September))
12:38:15 [masinter]
JAR: the linking item ought to be higher up
12:38:35 [masinter]
dan: I don't have an action on API minimization
12:39:41 [masinter]
((discussion that when reviewing minutes to update product page and actions ...))
12:43:48 [masinter]
Which "Other Active Products" should raise in priorities?
12:45:58 [masinter]
((publishing and linking moved up to top priority))
12:47:30 [masinter]
larry: http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/
12:55:40 [noah]
ACTION: Appelquist to draft initial cut at http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/identifiers Due: 2011-10-18
12:55:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-609 - Draft initial cut at http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/identifiers Due: 2011-10-18 [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2011-09-22].
12:55:48 [JeniT]
I'll volunteer for 'Meta Formats'
12:56:24 [masinter]
larry: I'll do Protocols
12:56:24 [noah]
ACTION: Tennison to draft initial cut at http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/metaformats Due: 2011-10-18
12:56:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-610 - Draft initial cut at http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/metaformats Due: 2011-10-18 [on Jeni Tennison - due 2011-09-22].
12:56:48 [jar]
the style for http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/ arranges that you can't tell where the links are by looking at the page. this is wrong.
12:56:53 [noah]
ACTION: Larry to draft initial cut at http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/protocols Due: 2011-11-15
12:56:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-611 - Draft initial cut at http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/protocols Due: 2011-11-15 [on Larry Masinter - due 2011-09-22].
12:59:02 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tagmem
12:59:19 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #tagmem
12:59:27 [jar]
zakim, who is your daddy?
12:59:27 [Zakim]
Ralph is taking good care of me but you all are my family, jar
13:02:48 [masinter]
noah: If I stand up at TPAC and say these are our priorities, are these the right ones
13:03:56 [masinter]
noah: how do you feel about that?
13:05:57 [masinter]
noah: we're about to burn person-months on these topics ... is this the right stuff?
13:06:31 [masinter]
noah: does this feel like the right work plan?
13:06:56 [masinter]
dan: missing HTML.next and workshop on web applications
13:08:07 [masinter]
((noah editing html.next into list))
13:10:09 [masinter]
jar: there are a lot of things we're talking about and thinking about, most of them not well-formed enough to put on a list like this
13:12:05 [masinter]
((discussion of microdata/RDFa))
13:12:48 [masinter]
JAR: I think the linking report is more important than microdata/RDFa work
13:13:16 [masinter]
JAR: it's already gone on months beyond where I think it would go
13:18:32 [masinter]
((discussion of microdata/RDFa not a 'TAG' task force))
13:22:51 [masinter]
Larry: the task force is just a effort to help HTML working group resolve the problem, but ultimate responsibility is HTML WG.
13:23:51 [masinter]
((discussion of Jeni's priorities))
13:28:40 [masinter]
larry: suggest presentation to AC about TAG priorities and ask for feedback
13:29:02 [masinter]
topic: wrap-up
13:33:58 [masinter]
ht: another entry for the 'we should work on' list is identity
13:34:13 [masinter]
s/we should work on/train wreck/
13:34:43 [noah]
Another for train wrecks: privacy, security.
13:35:02 [noah]
s/we should work on/train wrecks/
13:35:32 [masinter]
timbl: the standardization around single sign-on ....
13:35:52 [masinter]
ht: reliable attribution in semantic web
13:36:04 [masinter]
jar: it's much more about accountability than attribution
13:37:23 [masinter]
point out http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/175
13:38:14 [masinter]
s/point/larry: points/
13:38:55 [masinter]
timbl: we should put together some research projects ....
13:39:18 [masinter]
((discussion of access control and provenence ...))
13:39:47 [masinter]
Larry: want to ask about http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Main_Page
13:40:01 [Ashok]
q+
13:40:12 [masinter]
ht: at this point worth mentioning afs, based on groups
13:41:10 [masinter]
((afs requires daily login))
13:41:42 [masinter]
timbl: kerberos and shibboleth open source public key infrastructure
13:43:22 [masinter]
timbl: would be very valuable for identity to be a URL
13:44:58 [masinter]
ashok: henry is talking about verified identity
13:45:25 [masinter]
ashok: most people think that's too heavy weight, and they resist
13:45:35 [timbl]
s/URL/HTTP URL/
13:45:50 [timbl]
s/pubic key//
13:47:48 [plinss_]
http://www.gpgtools.org/
13:48:32 [plinss_]
lion mail plugin: https://github.com/downloads/GPGTools/GPGMail/GPGMail-2.0a4.dmg
13:48:45 [ht]
I'm at http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=0x9239C98B1017581A
13:49:24 [masinter]
larry: move to adjourn
13:50:11 [masinter]
discuss next meeting & phone conference
13:51:12 [masinter]
TAG phone conference of sept 22 is cancelled
13:51:34 [masinter]
TAG next phone conference is sept 29th
13:53:36 [masinter]
ADJOURNED
13:53:39 [jar]
GPGMail is not yet compatbile and will be disabled by Apple Mail on first startup after updating to Mac OS X Lion.
13:55:08 [masinter]
RRSagent, adjourn
13:55:08 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'adjourn', masinter. Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:55:13 [masinter]
RRSagent help
13:58:13 [timbl]
My right key ends in E7
14:00:40 [jar]
jar has joined #tagmem
14:05:54 [ht]
ht has joined #tagmem
14:20:32 [DKA]
DKA has joined #tagmem
14:21:14 [DKA]
Made the train. :) BTW my key ends with F6.
14:49:44 [timbl]
timbl has joined #tagmem
15:40:53 [plinss_]
plinss_ has joined #tagmem
16:00:58 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tagmem
17:32:14 [trackbot]
trackbot has joined #tagmem