14:17:31 RRSAgent has joined #dnt 14:17:31 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/14-dnt-irc 14:17:35 rrsagent, make record public 14:17:38 zakim, this will be TRACK 14:17:38 ok, tlr; I see Team_(dnt)15:00Z scheduled to start in 43 minutes 14:18:03 David has joined #dnt 14:36:45 AnnaLong has joined #dnt 14:37:03 tl has joined #dnt 14:48:17 zakim, code? 14:48:17 the conference code is 87225 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), tlr 14:50:11 Team_(dnt)15:00Z has now started 14:50:16 npdoty has joined #dnt 14:50:16 zakim, call thomas-781 14:50:17 ok, tlr; the call is being made 14:50:18 +[Microsoft] 14:50:50 + +1.949.483.aaaa 14:51:00 zakim, call thomas-781 14:51:00 ok, tlr; the call is being made 14:51:01 +Thomas 14:51:01 +??P14 14:51:12 +npdoty 14:51:21 zakim, ??P14 is mtschunter 14:51:21 +mtschunter; got it 14:51:24 + +1.415.797.aabb 14:51:27 zakim, aaaa is eric 14:51:27 +eric; got it 14:51:38 zakim, [Microsoft] has JCCannon 14:51:38 +JCCannon; got it 14:51:42 zakim, eric is really EricBlueCava 14:51:44 +EricBlueCava; got it 14:51:47 + +1.609.981.aacc 14:51:57 zakim, aabb is MaxRustinSchwab 14:51:57 +MaxRustinSchwab; got it 14:52:02 zakim, aacc is TomLowenthal 14:52:02 +TomLowenthal; got it 14:52:09 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:52:09 On the phone I see [Microsoft], EricBlueCava, mtschunter, Thomas, npdoty, MaxRustinSchwab, TomLowenthal 14:52:12 [Microsoft] has JCCannon 14:52:17 zakim, thomas is really ThomasRoessler 14:52:17 +ThomasRoessler; got it 14:52:49 +aleecia 14:53:06 zakim, list participants 14:53:07 As of this point the attendees have been +1.949.483.aaaa, npdoty, mtschunter, +1.415.797.aabb, JCCannon, EricBlueCava, +1.609.981.aacc, MaxRustinSchwab, TomLowenthal, 14:53:10 ... ThomasRoessler, aleecia 14:53:28 + +1.813.907.aadd 14:53:31 -TomLowenthal 14:53:37 +TomLowenthal 14:53:46 zakim, aabb is DavidBuchsbaumNielsen 14:53:48 sorry, tlr, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb' 14:53:54 zakim, aadd is DavidBuchsbaumNielsen 14:53:54 +DavidBuchsbaumNielsen; got it 14:54:08 + +1.919.388.aaee 14:54:28 zakim, aaee is AnnaLong 14:54:28 +AnnaLong; got it 14:54:40 Tom, it is David Buksbaum from Nielsen 14:54:58 zakim, DavidBuchsbaumNielsen is really DavidBuksbaumNielsen 14:54:58 +DavidBuksbaumNielsen; got it 14:54:58 AnnaLong has joined #dnt 14:55:02 aleecia has joined #dnt 14:55:06 zakim, DavidBuksbaumNielsen is nick David 14:55:06 I don't understand 'DavidBuksbaumNielsen is nick David', tlr 14:55:18 + +1.408.544.aaff 14:55:27 zakim, nick David is DavidBuksbaumNielsen 14:55:33 ok, tlr, I now associate David with DavidBuksbaumNielsen 14:55:35 zakim, aaff is HarlanYu 14:55:43 +HarlanYu; got it 14:55:43 zakim, HarlanYu has AshkanSoltani 14:55:54 +AshkanSoltani; got it 14:55:59 + +1.646.825.aagg 14:56:11 NMarnau has joined #dnt 14:56:33 zakim, aagg is DavidWeinbergAppNexus 14:56:33 +DavidWeinbergAppNexus; got it 14:57:05 + +1.202.326.aahh 14:57:09 for those curious about this magical IRC bot, there's documentation available here: http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot 14:57:29 zakim, aahh is EdFelten 14:57:29 +EdFelten; got it 14:57:38 + +49.431.98.aaii 14:57:54 npdoty, truly magical 14:58:00 zakim, aaii is NinjaMarnauULD 14:58:00 +NinjaMarnauULD; got it 14:58:01 + +1.202.684.aajj 14:58:06 zakim, NMarnau is NinjaMarnauULD 14:58:06 sorry, tlr, I do not recognize a party named 'NMarnau' 14:58:31 zakim, aajj is JonathanMayer 14:58:31 +JonathanMayer; got it 14:58:43 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:58:43 On the phone I see [Microsoft], EricBlueCava, mtschunter, ThomasRoessler, npdoty, MaxRustinSchwab, aleecia, DavidBuksbaumNielsen, TomLowenthal, AnnaLong, HarlanYu, 14:58:46 ... DavidWeinbergAppNexus, EdFelten, NinjaMarnauULD, JonathanMayer 14:58:47 [Microsoft] has JCCannon 14:58:47 HarlanYu has AshkanSoltani 14:59:06 zakim, nick NMarnau is NinjaMarnauULD 14:59:06 ok, tlr, I now associate NMarnau with NinjaMarnauULD 14:59:27 harlanyu has joined #dnt 14:59:40 +[Microsoft.a] 14:59:43 +??P22 14:59:51 zakim, ??P22 is kdubost 14:59:51 +kdubost; got it 15:00:17 + +1.770.392.aakk 15:00:20 karl has joined #dnt 15:00:27 + +1.617.284.aall 15:00:31 + +1.408.823.aamm 15:00:38 + +1.714.852.aann 15:00:48 karl has changed the topic to: Privacy Activity - Tracking Protection (karl) 15:00:53 + +33.1.30.77.aaoo 15:00:59 + +1.415.734.aapp 15:01:14 + +1.908.541.aaqq 15:01:22 Ed_ has joined #dnt 15:01:39 ashkan has joined #dnt 15:01:39 davidw has joined #dnt 15:02:22 Vincent has joined #dnt 15:02:32 + +49.175.181.aarr 15:02:37 Ed_ has left #dnt 15:02:43 + +1.202.263.aass 15:03:02 jmayer has joined #dnt 15:03:08 Scribe: npdoty 15:03:09 RRSAgent, logs? 15:03:09 I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'logs' 15:03:10 EdFelten has joined #dnt 15:03:11 + +1.347.689.aatt 15:03:18 zakim, aarr is FrankWagner 15:03:18 +FrankWagner; got it 15:03:19 fielding has joined #dnt 15:03:23 RRSAgent, make logs 15:03:23 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make logs', karl. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:03:28 + +1.212.231.aauu 15:03:34 + +49.721.913.74.aavv 15:03:46 +Stephanie_Lopes 15:03:51 + +1.510.501.aaww 15:04:13 yep 15:04:52 + +1.212.631.aaxx 15:04:57 zakim, mute aaxx 15:04:57 +1.212.631.aaxx should now be muted 15:05:02 thomas: should we do a 'hum test' for calibration? ;) 15:05:06 Brian has joined #DNT 15:05:11 + +1.206.658.aayy 15:05:20 tlr: Thomas Roessler, the Tech & Society Domain Leader 15:05:24 tg has joined #dnt 15:05:30 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:05:30 On the phone I see [Microsoft], EricBlueCava, mtschunter, ThomasRoessler, npdoty, MaxRustinSchwab, aleecia, DavidBuksbaumNielsen, TomLowenthal, AnnaLong, HarlanYu, 15:05:33 npdoty: Nick Doty, staff contact 15:05:33 ... DavidWeinbergAppNexus, EdFelten, NinjaMarnauULD, JonathanMayer, [Microsoft.a], kdubost, +1.770.392.aakk, +1.617.284.aall, +1.408.823.aamm, +1.714.852.aann, +33.1.30.77.aaoo, 15:05:37 ... +1.415.734.aapp, +1.908.541.aaqq, FrankWagner, +1.202.263.aass, +1.347.689.aatt, +1.212.231.aauu, +49.721.913.74.aavv, Stephanie_Lopes, +1.510.501.aaww, +1.212.631.aaxx 15:05:43 ... (muted), +1.206.658.aayy 15:05:43 [Microsoft] has JCCannon 15:05:45 HarlanYu has AshkanSoltani 15:05:48 clay has joined #dnt 15:06:04 zakim, who is speaking? 15:06:16 tlr, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DavidWeinbergAppNexus (20%), Stephanie_Lopes (6%), +49.721.913.74.aavv (18%), +1.212.231.aauu (45%) 15:06:28 Alan Chappell, Blue Kai; Ed Felten, FTC, Chris Olsen, FTC; David Buksbaum, Nielsen; Dan McKinney 24/7 Real Media; ___, AT&T 15:06:35 Ashkan Soltani 15:06:50 Karl Dubost (Opera Software) 15:06:54 JC Cannon, Microsoft 15:07:03 Clay Webster, CBS 15:07:10 Harlan Yu, Princeton; Kevin Trilli, TRUSTe 15:07:15 ____, Charles Schwab 15:07:17 Roy T. Fielding, Adobe 15:07:20 Matthias Schunter, IBM 15:07:25 Jonathan Mayer, Stanford 15:07:36 ___, Center for Privacy Protection in Germany 15:07:48 @@, Future of Privacy Forum 15:07:52 Roy Fielding, Adobe 15:08:00 Tom Lowenthal, Mozilla 15:08:07 @@@, Alcatel-Lucent 15:08:22 Vincent toubiana Alcatel lucent :) 15:08:26 +q 15:08:28 q- 15:08:37 s/@@@/Vincent Toubiana/ 15:09:01 http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/charter.html 15:09:06 aleecia: tight timeline, a very aggressive schedule 15:09:27 … browser makers, self-regulatory groups, regulatory, etc. 15:09:37 … if we don't move quickly enough, our work may be irrelevant 15:09:59 … also want to move quickly to help out those who are implementing DNT now 15:10:22 … so that implementers aren't having to change regularly, and so that it's easier to understand for users 15:10:35 … but we also want to slow down when necessary to get work done right 15:10:52 … we think this is worth a little extra effort 15:11:15 … most immediate deadline is the first public working draft (FPWD) 15:11:27 … 1) Tracking Preference Expression / Do Not Track 15:11:37 … 2) Tracking Selection List / Tracking Protection List 15:11:46 … 3) Definitions and Compliance 15:12:00 … not looking to define "privacy" or such deep concepts 15:12:15 … would rather have us define more specific terms, like what will count as a first party 15:12:30 … work on definitions is likely to be iterative 15:13:05 … won't get complete consensus in two days at MIT, but can see where we do have consensus and where we don't 15:13:39 … jointly create recommendations; balance the values of stakeholders, be reasonable to implement, be sustainable over time 15:14:00 … open atmosphere, constructive criticism, sharing of values and concerns 15:14:10 /me zakim, who is speaking? 15:14:23 … chairs will step in if necessary 15:14:35 zakim, mute Stephanie_Lopes 15:14:35 Stephanie_Lopes should now be muted 15:14:41 … we can leverage previous work 15:14:52 … please send suggested input documents to the mailing list for the group to discuss 15:15:15 … also think about use cases for your organization 15:15:30 … as in the Princeton hum, we saw that we could all live with some broad definition with exemptions 15:15:53 - +1.206.658.aayy 15:15:58 … current list of input documents http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/#input-documents 15:16:08 … also think about the success criteria, which we'll discuss at MIT 15:16:27 … some MIT logistics, please book hotels early (surprisingly crowded) 15:16:31 + +1.703.983.aazz 15:16:41 … full days on 21st and 22nd 15:16:56 … we're planning on 3 or 4 f2f meetings 15:17:17 … second meeting at Santa Clara, CA at end of October [with TPAC] 15:17:26 … third meeting probably in Europe after the holidays 15:17:48 … if there is a meeting that you just cannot attend, we do understand, but the meetings can be very valuable 15:18:14 +shayman 15:18:30 … we know there are lots of organizations still dealing with paperwork on joining the group, etc., but we won't let that get in the way of joining the meeting at MIT 15:18:50 … we are aware of issues with joining the mailing list due to technical difficulties, we expect this to be resolved soon 15:19:24 q? 15:19:29 … we started exactly on time at 8am PT 15:19:50 … any questions? please use the IRC queue "q+" 15:19:52 q+ did you say three separate drafts? 15:20:00 zakim, who is speaking 15:20:00 I don't understand 'who is speaking', tl 15:20:08 zakim, who is making noise? 15:20:18 tlr, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: FrankWagner (35%) 15:20:36 q? 15:20:50 aleecia: yes, Tracking Protection Lists; Do Not Track; the definitions that underlie those 15:20:58 q? 15:21:13 fielding: do we expect three drafts and three editors working separately? 15:21:21 q+ is there a planned INtroduction/umbrella/tutorial document 15:21:37 aleecia: yes, we're not ready to announce editors yet, but that's how we expect it to go 15:22:18 karl: should we have a more accessible document, to explain/introduce? 15:22:28 karl: I suggest we postpone that until after the hard drafts are mostly complete 15:22:34 aleecia: we haven't thought of that, but it may be useful 15:22:41 + +1.206.658.bbaa 15:22:59 q? 15:23:13 q+ 15:23:15 fielding, yup didn't want to do it now, just wanted to know if there would be plans for that. 15:23:36 s/karl: I suggest/karl, I suggest/ 15:23:48 zakim, who is speaking? 15:23:59 tlr, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DavidWeinbergAppNexus (63%), +1.703.983.aazz (50%), aleecia (61%), +49.721.913.74.aavv (14%) 15:24:23 tt has joined #dnt 15:24:27 Lia has joined #dnt 15:25:12 Dan has joined #dnt 15:25:41 @@: emphasis on DNT; to what extent would the work enable tracking across multiple services? 15:26:03 … for auditing purposes, I would want to track where a request has gone 15:26:30 … track a message, how you responded, who touched the message, decide whether to engage Do Not Track 15:26:52 aleecia: those are certainly the sorts of questions we'll talk about, and should start working out at MIT 15:27:08 q? 15:27:13 … encourage you to write up the use case from your company's perspective and the user's perspective 15:28:10 ashkan: before the workshop or ongoing, are there attempts to aggregate various proposals and highlight key differences? 15:28:20 … a lot of similarities between various drafts from different stakeholders 15:28:44 Noga has joined #dnt 15:28:51 aleecia: that's a great comment, and some academic work of my own that would be useful input 15:29:04 action: aleecia to look at summary 15:29:04 Created ACTION-1 - Look at summary [on Aleecia McDonald - due 2011-09-21]. 15:29:13 q? 15:29:16 q- 15:29:24 - +1.212.631.aaxx 15:29:42 who? 15:30:02 (also seems choppy on my end) 15:30:19 @@@: a clarification, how we express preferences and how web clients will respond to users 15:30:45 aleecia: agree that we're talking more than just the client 15:31:21 no. i was talking about various draft's in circulation (CDT, IAB, etc) 15:31:28 @@@: a clarification on the previous concern, I thought that he was talking about a user sending the DNT being able to know who had responded to that message 15:31:53 rssagent, make log 15:32:02 rrsagent, make log 15:32:02 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make log', karl. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:32:23 q? 15:32:27 aleecia: I thought the earlier question was about how the enterprise could understand, rather than the user having that visibility 15:32:36 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:32:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/14-dnt-minutes.html karl 15:32:45 rrsagent, make log public 15:32:47 q+ 15:33:17 aleecia: so I believe we can close early, but feel free to send email 15:33:18 - +1.617.284.aall 15:33:29 … and should be able to work out mailing list issues soon 15:34:17 thanks aleecia for chairing and npdoty for scribing! 15:34:18 tlr: in response to ashkan, the work of the group will mostly be done by the participants, so if anyone wants to help with that analysis/aggregation, this would be a great time to contribute 15:34:36 - +1.415.734.aapp 15:34:40 aleecia: +1, since many of you have been personally involved 15:34:44 - +1.703.983.aazz 15:34:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:34:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/14-dnt-minutes.html karl 15:34:45 -[Microsoft] 15:34:46 -EdFelten 15:34:47 -DavidBuksbaumNielsen 15:34:48 - +1.202.263.aass 15:34:48 - +1.206.658.bbaa 15:34:49 - +1.212.231.aauu 15:34:52 - +1.908.541.aaqq 15:34:55 -DavidWeinbergAppNexus 15:34:57 -shayman 15:34:59 -FrankWagner 15:35:01 -JonathanMayer 15:35:03 - +1.408.823.aamm 15:35:05 - +1.510.501.aaww 15:35:07 -Stephanie_Lopes 15:35:09 -MaxRustinSchwab 15:35:13 -EricBlueCava 15:35:15 - +1.347.689.aatt 15:35:17 -HarlanYu 15:35:19 - +49.721.913.74.aavv 15:35:21 -NinjaMarnauULD 15:35:23 - +33.1.30.77.aaoo 15:35:29 -TomLowenthal 15:35:31 -ThomasRoessler 15:35:35 - +1.714.852.aann 15:35:37 - +1.770.392.aakk 15:35:45 aleecia, will this be the channel for all our work? 15:35:46 -aleecia 15:35:47 -mtschunter 15:35:50 -kdubost 15:35:52 -[Microsoft.a] 15:35:57 Hi Karl - more the mailing list 15:35:58 -AnnaLong 15:36:06 understood 15:36:10 but for the meetings 15:36:11 But on calls, we will use this heavily 15:36:14 Yes. 15:36:18 always #dnt from now on 15:36:20 +1 15:36:22 ok 15:36:29 -npdoty 15:36:30 Team_(dnt)15:00Z has ended 15:36:32 Attendees were +1.949.483.aaaa, npdoty, mtschunter, +1.415.797.aabb, JCCannon, EricBlueCava, +1.609.981.aacc, MaxRustinSchwab, TomLowenthal, ThomasRoessler, aleecia, 15:36:34 There's a good question - the name doesn't fit the work 15:36:34 adding it to my list of automatic channels to join 15:36:35 ... +1.813.907.aadd, +1.919.388.aaee, AnnaLong, DavidBuksbaumNielsen, +1.408.544.aaff, AshkanSoltani, +1.646.825.aagg, DavidWeinbergAppNexus, +1.202.326.aahh, EdFelten, 15:36:39 ... +49.431.98.aaii, NinjaMarnauULD, +1.202.684.aajj, JonathanMayer, [Microsoft], kdubost, +1.770.392.aakk, +1.617.284.aall, +1.408.823.aamm, +1.714.852.aann, +33.1.30.77.aaoo, 15:36:44 ... +1.415.734.aapp, +1.908.541.aaqq, +49.175.181.aarr, +1.202.263.aass, +1.347.689.aatt, FrankWagner, +1.212.231.aauu, +49.721.913.74.aavv, Stephanie_Lopes, +1.510.501.aaww, 15:36:45 But yes, we are #dnt 15:36:47 ... +1.212.631.aaxx, +1.206.658.aayy, +1.703.983.aazz, shayman, +1.206.658.bbaa 15:37:27 thanks 15:37:56 Thanks (all) for joining the call today 15:38:22 impressive swiftness, aleecia =] 15:38:44 thanks aleecia for introducing the project 15:42:33 Team_(dnt)15:00Z has now started 15:42:40 + +1.949.202.aaaa 15:44:40 - +1.949.202.aaaa 15:44:41 Team_(dnt)15:00Z has ended 15:44:41 Attendees were +1.949.202.aaaa 15:51:21 Team_(dnt)15:00Z has now started 15:51:28 + +1.949.202.aaaa 15:53:44 - +1.949.202.aaaa 15:53:45 Team_(dnt)15:00Z has ended 15:53:45 Attendees were +1.949.202.aaaa 16:33:30 tl has joined #dnt 16:33:41 JC has joined #dnt 17:06:49 tl has joined #dnt 17:41:35 tl has joined #dnt 17:55:02 Zakim has left #dnt 19:07:17 karl has joined #dnt 20:16:33 aleecia has joined #dnt 20:38:00 tl has joined #dnt 20:47:41 hober has joined #dnt 21:32:56 tl has joined #dnt 21:52:45 tl has joined #dnt 22:40:21 tl has joined #dnt 23:43:41 aleecia_ has joined #dnt 23:45:00 tl has joined #dnt