14:59:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webevents
14:59:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/13-webevents-irc
14:59:45 <mbrubeck> Zakim, aabb is me
14:59:45 <Zakim> +mbrubeck; got it
14:59:49 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log public
15:00:12 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
15:00:12 <ArtB> Scribe: Art
15:00:12 <ArtB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0051.html
15:00:19 <ArtB> Date: 13 September 2011
15:00:23 <ArtB> Chair: Art
15:00:24 <Zakim> + +46.3.13.48.aacc
15:00:32 <ArtB> Meeting: Web Events WG Voice Conference
15:00:36 <anders_hockersten> Zakim, aacc is me
15:00:36 <Zakim> +anders_hockersten; got it
15:00:53 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
15:01:10 <Zakim> + +1.503.712.aadd
15:01:28 <Cathy> Cathy has joined #webevents
15:01:37 <shepazu> Zakim, who's noisy?
15:01:43 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Matt_Brubeck, Anders_Hockersten, Doug_Schepers, Cathy_Chan, Dzung_Tran
15:01:48 <Zakim> shepazu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: anders_hockersten (84%), Art_Barstow (5%)
15:01:55 <shepazu> Zakim, mute anders_hockersten 
15:01:55 <Zakim> anders_hockersten should now be muted
15:02:09 <Dzung_Tran> Dzung_Tran has joined #webevents
15:02:17 <ArtB> Present+ Scott_Graham
15:02:25 <Dzung_Tran> Present+ Dzung_Tran
15:02:27 <ArtB> Topic: Tweak Agenda
15:02:36 <ArtB> AB: yesterday I sent the draft agenda to the list http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0051.html. Any change requests?
15:02:58 <ArtB> [ None ]
15:03:03 <ArtB> Topic: Announcements
15:03:08 <ArtB> AB: any short announcements for today? The LC for TEv1 will be published today http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-Touch-Events-20110913/. Congratulations to everyone and thanks to the Editors!
15:03:23 <ArtB> AB: any other announcements for today?
15:03:32 <ArtB> Topic: Issue-19: Align initTouchEvent parameters with Webkit; feedback from Webkit community?
15:03:41 <ArtB> AB: last week we agree to close Issue-19 http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/19 and we said we would put it on today's agenda in case there was feedback to discuss.
15:04:00 <ArtB> AB: Laszlo isn't here today
15:04:06 <shepazu> agenda+ Mouse Lock
15:04:09 <ArtB> … is there any activity on that bug?
15:04:37 <ArtB> DG: there was an e-mail from Anne van Kesteren
15:04:42 <ArtB> MB: I'll respond to that
15:04:47 <ArtB> … it also affects the v2 spec
15:05:16 <ArtB> AB: we will consider AvK's e-mail as a formal LC comment
15:06:26 <ArtB> … The Editors will need to track LC comments
15:06:34 <ArtB> … and there are various ways to do that
15:06:55 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow discuss LC comment processing with the editors
15:06:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - Discuss LC comment processing with the editors [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-09-20].
15:07:19 <ArtB> AB: anything else on this topic?
15:07:30 <ArtB> Topic: Targets of Touch Events; Cathy Chan on 7-Sep:
15:07:37 <ArtB> AB: Cathy submitted some comments about the targets of touch events http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0046.html
15:08:04 <ArtB> CC: the question was about touchcancel event
15:08:15 <ArtB> … it doesn't have as much info about targets
15:08:26 <ArtB> … so I was wondering if some additional text should be added
15:08:33 <ArtB> … perhaps more similar to touchend
15:08:39 <ArtB> MB: I agree those are good issues
15:08:56 <ArtB> … I suspect touchcancel should be similar to touchend
15:09:06 <ArtB> … We need to check what impls are doing
15:09:30 <Zakim> -mbrubeck
15:09:55 <ArtB> AB: so is there consensus the spec needs to change?
15:10:01 <ArtB> DS: yes, that seems reasonable to me
15:10:09 <Zakim> +mbrubeck
15:10:53 <ArtB> MB: I agree the spec needs to change
15:11:07 <ArtB> … before the spec is changed, we need to see what impls are doing
15:11:18 <ArtB> DS: I think that means we need an issue and action to check impls
15:11:53 <ArtB> ACTION: cathy create an issue for the touchcancel question raised on Sept 7 2011
15:11:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-64 - Create an issue for the touchcancel question raised on Sept 7 2011 [on Cathy Chan - due 2011-09-20].
15:12:11 <ArtB> CC: the other question 
15:12:20 <ArtB> … is about target of touchend
15:12:48 <ArtB> … is that the same element as touchstart
15:13:01 <ArtB> … One of the examples may need to be updated
15:13:09 <ArtB> AB: any comments?
15:13:25 <ArtB> MB: I haven't looked at Q1 yet
15:13:45 <ArtB> DT: I think the intention is a touchstart is needed
15:13:58 <ArtB> … We should check existing impls
15:14:22 <anders_hockersten> dropping in and out, will comment here instead
15:15:01 <ArtB> AB: should we consider Cathy's comments as LC comments?
15:15:03 <ArtB> DS: yes
15:15:08 <anders_hockersten> seems like it could be hard to make an implementation that can listen to just touchend, if it is supposed to also emulate mouse events
15:15:22 <anders_hockersten> but I haven't thought it fully through
15:15:46 <ArtB> AB: feels like we should record this as an issue
15:15:59 <ArtB> … and that people should respond to Cathy's email
15:16:14 <ArtB> … after they have read the mail and done some testing
15:16:39 <ArtB> MB: I agree, to create an issue
15:16:48 <anders_hockersten> +1
15:16:57 <ArtB> ACTION: cathy create an Issue for Q1 of the Sept 7 comments
15:16:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-65 - Create an Issue for Q1 of the Sept 7 comments [on Cathy Chan - due 2011-09-20].
15:17:18 <ArtB> Topic: Testing Touch Events v1
15:17:25 <ArtB> AB: Some test cases for the TE spec have been created by Matt http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webevents/file/923f5ba58a22/test
15:17:44 <ArtB> AB: do we know where the testing gaps? This would be "automatic" if the spec's assertions were marked accordingly.
15:18:16 <ArtB> … wondering about the size of the problem space
15:18:45 <ArtB> MB: for v1, the test cases I wrote were for single touch use cases
15:18:54 <ArtB> … we will need additional tests for multi touch
15:19:06 <ArtB> … e.g. when added or order of removd
15:19:13 <ArtB> … we also need to cover other attrs
15:19:25 <ArtB> … We probably have about 20-25% coverage now
15:19:46 <ArtB> … Thus the test cases will need to be roughly 3 times larger than what we have now
15:20:07 <ArtB> DS: traditionally, we separte simple things into small test files
15:20:38 <ArtB> MB: yes, I see some advantages of that for some features
15:20:50 <smaug> smaug has joined #webevents
15:20:51 <ArtB> DS: what about synthesizing events
15:20:56 <ArtB> MB: we could do that
15:20:57 <smaug> yikes
15:20:59 <smaug> meeting
15:21:19 <ArtB> … We may not agree on how to synthesize events
15:21:27 <ArtB> DS: ideally, some could be synthesized
15:21:40 <ArtB> … there are 4 diff event types
15:21:58 <ArtB> … If we had automated tests, we could generate a test for each type
15:22:04 <ArtB> … then a test for each attr
15:22:10 <Zakim> -mbrubeck
15:22:45 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:22:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/13-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
15:22:46 <Zakim> +mbrubeck
15:22:50 <Zakim> -mbrubeck
15:22:53 <mbrubeck> argh
15:23:21 <anders_hockersten> sound drops intermittently from voice bridge for me
15:23:38 <smaug> I need to find some empty room
15:23:40 <anders_hockersten> really bad at times (like when I was trying to say something) but generally the dropouts have been few and short
15:23:53 <smaug> my headset is somewhere in the hotel
15:24:10 <Zakim> +mbrubeck
15:24:34 <lgombos> lgombos has joined #webevents
15:24:58 <ArtB> MB: if we synth tests, we don't get much info about responses to real inputs
15:25:06 <ArtB> DS: one goal is to test the spec itself
15:25:15 <ArtB> … need to make sure it is implementable
15:25:27 <ArtB> … The other goal is to test true interoperablility
15:25:42 <ArtB> … For the 1st goal, I think some synth test make sense
15:25:48 <ArtB> … to test e.g. attrs
15:26:07 <ArtB> … 4 events with 7 attrs 
15:26:17 <ArtB> MB: and there are lists too 
15:26:26 <Zakim> +lgombos
15:26:33 <ArtB> DS: yes; also may have single or multiple items in the list
15:26:41 <ArtB> … need to test each create method
15:26:49 <Zakim> +??P28
15:26:51 <ArtB> Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
15:26:53 <smaug> that is me
15:27:09 <ArtB> Present+ Olli_Pettay
15:27:15 <mbrubeck> Zakim, ??P28 is smaug
15:27:15 <Zakim> +smaug; got it
15:27:16 <smaug> Zakim, ??P28 is Olli_Pettay
15:27:16 <Zakim> I already had ??P28 as smaug, smaug
15:27:19 <ArtB> DS: think this will give us about 50 tests t
15:27:25 <mbrubeck> Zakim, smaug is really Olli_Pettay
15:27:25 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
15:27:32 <ArtB> … and they should be relatively straight forward to create
15:27:32 <mbrubeck> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
15:27:32 <Zakim> ok, mbrubeck, I now associate smaug with Olli_Pettay
15:28:12 <ArtB> MB: sounds good
15:28:37 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:28:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/13-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
15:29:03 <ArtB> MB: the other thing about synth tests is they can get complicated if we remove init method
15:29:46 <ArtB> AB: need people to create test cases
15:30:06 <ArtB> … I don't think we should expect the Editors to do all of the work
15:30:21 <ArtB> … although they are certainly welcome to do so if they want to
15:31:06 <ArtB> AB: any ideas about determining who will test what
15:31:18 <ArtB> MB: first, we need to get more than 1 person writing tests
15:31:51 <ArtB> OP: I will probably write some test cases when reviewing a patch for multitouch
15:31:59 <Dzung_Tran> DT: I will help
15:32:06 <ArtB> AB: who else can commit to writing test cases
15:32:12 <ArtB> … Thanks Tran
15:32:32 <ArtB> … Is there something in particular Tran?
15:32:40 <ArtB> DT: I could look into multitouch
15:32:52 <ArtB> … if that is needed
15:33:04 <ArtB> MB: yes, but Olli is interested in that area too
15:33:12 <ArtB> … thous Tran and Olli should coordinate
15:33:17 <ArtB> s/thous/thus/
15:33:36 <ArtB> AB: ok, so Tran and Olli can help. Anyone else?
15:34:11 <ArtB> AB: Doug, any additional thoughts or advice here?
15:34:27 <ArtB> DS: we should look closely at what the testing group is doing
15:34:43 <ArtB> … so that we leverage their work as much as possible
15:34:56 <ArtB> AB: and by "testing group", you mean what Doug?
15:35:09 <ArtB> DS: there was a WG proposed a while ago
15:35:14 <ArtB> … I'll drop a link
15:35:53 <ArtB> AB: we agreed months ago to leverage the testharness.js framework that is being used by WebApps WG, HTMLWG and others
15:35:57 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
15:36:03 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/2011/05/testing-ig-charter.html
15:36:18 <ArtB> AB: anything else on testing for today?
15:36:33 <Zakim> +??P28
15:36:46 <smaug> Zakim, ??P28 is Olli_Pettay
15:36:46 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
15:36:54 <ArtB> ACTION: Tran create multitouch test cases for the Touch Events spec
15:36:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-66 - Create multitouch test cases for the Touch Events spec [on Dzung Tran - due 2011-09-20].
15:37:10 <ArtB> Topic: Intentional Events spec: status and plans
15:37:16 <ArtB> AB: the last time we discussed the group's so-called "Intentional Events" spec was June 7 http://www.w3.org/2011/06/07-webevents-minutes.html#item07
15:37:24 <ArtB> AB: the WAI's Protocols and Formats is interested in this topic.
15:37:37 <ArtB> AB: Apple's James Craig has done some work http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html but that draft is more than a year old
15:38:02 <ArtB> AB: Doug, do you have an update on this? Wondering about the next steps?
15:38:11 <ArtB> DS: I am not aware of a newer spec
15:38:45 <ArtB> AB: do we need to talk off list about what to do next Doug?
15:38:52 <ArtB> DS: yes
15:39:14 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
15:39:15 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow work with Doug on next steps for the Intentional Events spec
15:39:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-67 - Work with Doug on next steps for the Intentional Events spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-09-20].
15:39:39 <ArtB> DS: I think there is some talk in the WAI about starting a new group for this area
15:39:54 <ArtB> Topic: Joystick API
15:40:01 <ArtB> AB: the RfC to add Joystick API to our charter ended 9-Sep http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0041.html. Given there were no objections, I will move forward with the formal re-chartering process.
15:40:32 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow work with Doug and PLH to add Joystick API to WebEvents' charter
15:40:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-68 - Work with Doug and PLH to add Joystick API to WebEvents' charter [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-09-20].
15:40:54 <Zakim> -mbrubeck
15:41:05 <ArtB> MB: I talked to Mozilla's TedM
15:41:10 <smaug> I've asked ted to join this group
15:41:25 <mbrubeck> Ted wrote draft API spec at https://wiki.mozilla.org/JoystickAPI
15:41:34 <ArtB> AB: I presume Matt means Ted Mielczarek
15:41:44 <mbrubeck> he is willing to join the group, and might be pursuaded to help edit the spec
15:41:58 <ArtB> AB: ok, that's great to read Matt
15:41:59 <smaug> (this network can't handle hundreds of mozillians and their laptops and tablets)
15:42:04 <mbrubeck> As an aside, he wants to change the name to "game controller API" because apparently only old people still call them joysticks. :)
15:42:13 <ArtB> … I'll take an action to followup with Mozilla's AC rep to get Ted to join
15:42:33 <ArtB> DT: I have a question about rechartering
15:42:50 <ArtB> … will it be general enough so that other input devices can be added without chartering
15:43:01 <Zakim> -anders_hockersten
15:43:23 <ArtB> … F.ex., a wheel - it works differently than a joystick
15:43:29 <anders_hockersten> brb redialing
15:43:56 <ArtB> SG: I agree with Matt that something like Game Controller may be a better name
15:43:59 <Zakim> +anders_hockersten
15:44:15 <ArtB> DS: I agree we need to abstract about events
15:44:33 <ArtB> … but using "Game" could cause problems with getting some members to join
15:44:54 <smaug> Ted mentioned that he will probably change the name of the APi
15:44:55 <ArtB> SG: I envisioned wheels being included within the joystick name
15:45:09 <ArtB> s/name/API/
15:45:17 <ArtB> … need to think about keeping scope limited
15:45:28 <ArtB> … so we can get spec done in a reasonable time
15:45:43 <ArtB> DS: D3E includes wheel
15:45:59 <ArtB> … We need to be careful about expanding the scope of the charter
15:46:16 <ArtB> … If anything, tighter scope will help us get more W3C Members to join the WG
15:46:27 <ArtB> … Think we should just include Joystick API
15:46:42 <ArtB> … and if we need a new API, then we add that explicitly
15:47:11 <ArtB> … That said, we can still talk about other things that are out of scope
15:47:27 <ArtB> … and other stuff may be better for a CG
15:48:54 <ArtB> AB: we need to be careful about any scope changes
15:49:14 <ArtB> … would prefer to just add 1 new deliverable
15:49:25 <anders_hockersten> I have to leave now. Have a nice <timezone-appropriate-time-of-day>!
15:49:32 <Zakim> -anders_hockersten
15:49:40 <anders_hockersten> anders_hockersten has left #webevents
15:50:08 <ArtB> … We also need to separate Touch Events into v1 and v2
15:51:13 <ArtB> AB: not sure about us having technical discussions about Joystick without it being in the charter
15:51:25 <ArtB> DS: if we keep the discussions high level, that should be ok
15:51:45 <ArtB> … and we all have to keep in mind we can't formally publish anything until its in the charter
15:53:12 <ArtB> AB: so what do we do next re Joystick?
15:53:23 <ArtB> … do we try to merge ...
15:53:32 <ArtB> DS: we could ask TedM to join us
15:53:59 <ArtB> … it may make sense to split the call into TE and Joystick halves
15:54:29 <smaug> I think joystick is perhaps such thing which could be handled mainly in mailing list
15:54:41 <smaug> since it may get lots of feedback from outside the group
15:54:45 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow invite TedM to join us next week
15:54:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-69 - Invite TedM to join us next week [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-09-20].
15:55:23 <ArtB> Topic: Mouse Lock
15:55:29 <shepazu> Mouse Lock Specification Draft https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uV4uDVIe9-8XdVndW8nNGWBfqn9ieeop-5TRfScOG_o/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CM-dw7QG&ndplr=1
15:55:43 <shepazu> Vincent Scheib, Google
15:56:16 <ArtB> DS: for mouse moves
15:56:23 <ArtB> … and lock into an element
15:56:29 <ArtB> … can control viewport
15:56:42 <ArtB> … This has been a conversation on public-webapps
15:57:18 <ArtB> … Vincent's doc has a lot of reqs and use cases
15:57:29 <ArtB> … It may be appropriate to work on it in this WG
15:57:44 <ArtB> SG: I agree it makes sense to add it to this WG
15:57:53 <ArtB> … there are similar requirements to Joystick
15:58:36 <ArtB> DS: are there any objections to adding it to our charter?
15:58:40 <ArtB> AB: I need to review it
15:59:00 <ArtB> … Can you ask TV Raman before we start a RfC to add it?
15:59:02 <ArtB> DS: yes
15:59:15 <smaug> There are probably still security issues in the mouselock
15:59:30 <smaug> so, it needs to be reviewed that in mind
15:59:34 <ArtB> ACTION: Doug ask TV Raman about Google's interest in adding Mouse Lock to WebEvents charter
15:59:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-70 - Ask TV Raman about Google's interest in adding Mouse Lock to WebEvents charter [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-09-20].
16:00:03 <ArtB> AB: I'll start an RFC after we hear from Raman
16:00:36 <ArtB> AB: any concerns or voices of support for Mouse Lock?
16:00:50 <ArtB> DS: I'm not sure that "Mouse Lock" is the best name
16:01:02 <ArtB> … since it can work for other devices too
16:01:19 <ArtB> Topic: Any Other Business (AOB)
16:01:31 <ArtB> AB: any other topics for today?
16:01:38 <smaug> I'm not 100% sure the mouse lock API is exactly what we want, but atm I don't have any other proposal
16:02:09 <ArtB> AB: we should a call next week
16:02:20 <ArtB> … any objections?
16:02:26 <ArtB> AB: next call on September 20
16:02:34 <ArtB> AB: meeting adjourned
16:02:36 <Zakim> -scottmg
16:02:38 <Zakim> - +1.503.712.aadd
16:02:40 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
16:02:41 <Zakim> -Art_Barstow
16:02:53 <Zakim> -lgombos
16:02:54 <Zakim> RWC_WebEven()11:00AM has ended
16:02:56 <Zakim> Attendees were +46.3.13.48.aaaa, scottmg, Art_Barstow, +1.206.697.aabb, mbrubeck, +46.3.13.48.aacc, anders_hockersten, Doug_Schepers, +1.503.712.aadd, lgombos, Olli_Pettay
16:05:52 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:05:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/13-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
16:06:47 <ArtB> Regrets: Sangwhan_Moon
16:06:56 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:06:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/13-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
16:34:02 <ArtB> RRSAgent, bye
16:34:02 <RRSAgent> I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/13-webevents-actions.rdf :
16:34:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow discuss LC comment processing with the editors [1]
16:34:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/13-webevents-irc#T15-06-55
16:34:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cathy create an issue for the touchcancel question raised on Sept 7 2011 [2]
16:34:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/13-webevents-irc#T15-11-53
16:34:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cathy create an Issue for Q1 of the Sept 7 comments [3]
16:34:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/13-webevents-irc#T15-16-57
16:34:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Tran create multitouch test cases for the Touch Events spec [4]
16:34:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/13-webevents-irc#T15-36-54
16:34:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with Doug on next steps for the Intentional Events spec [5]
16:34:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/13-webevents-irc#T15-39-15
16:34:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with Doug and PLH to add Joystick API to WebEvents' charter [6]
16:34:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/13-webevents-irc#T15-40-32
16:34:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow invite TedM to join us next week [7]
16:34:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/13-webevents-irc#T15-54-45
16:34:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Doug ask TV Raman about Google's interest in adding Mouse Lock to WebEvents charter [8]
16:34:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/13-webevents-irc#T15-59-34
16:34:18 <ArtB> zakim, bye
16:34:18 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webevents