IRC log of ua on 2011-09-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:04:14 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:04:14 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/08-ua-irc
16:04:16 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:04:16 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:04:18 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:04:18 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 56 minutes
16:04:19 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:04:19 [trackbot]
Date: 08 September 2011
16:04:32 [JAllan]
Chair: KellyFord, JimAllan
16:04:46 [JAllan]
regrets: JanR, KellyF
16:56:04 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
16:57:22 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:57:29 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.324.aaaa
16:57:39 [jeanne]
zakim, aaaa is really jeanne
16:57:39 [Zakim]
+jeanne; got it
17:00:49 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
17:01:09 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
17:01:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jeanne, Jim_Allan
17:01:10 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot
17:01:46 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Register for TPAC http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/
17:01:47 [JAllan]
17:01:49 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Resolve configure important items, UA determine relationships.
17:01:50 [JAllan]
17:01:52 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Review/Resolve outstanding issues
17:01:53 [JAllan]
17:01:55 [JAllan]
Agenda+ survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/abc/
17:01:56 [JAllan]
17:01:58 [JAllan]
Agenda+ review comments - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JulSep/0010.html
17:02:31 [jeanne]
regrets+ Jan, Kelly
17:03:27 [Zakim]
+Mark_Hakkinen
17:03:46 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.895.aabb
17:04:07 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:08:25 [jeanne]
zakim, aabb is Greg
17:08:25 [Zakim]
+Greg; got it
17:08:51 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
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+ +1.617.325.aacc
17:09:04 [jeanne]
zakim, aacc is really Kim
17:09:04 [Zakim]
+Kim; got it
17:09:43 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
17:09:43 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:09:45 [Zakim]
1. Register for TPAC http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ [from JAllan]
17:09:48 [Zakim]
2. Resolve configure important items, UA determine relationships. [from JAllan]
17:09:51 [Zakim]
3. Review/Resolve outstanding issues [from JAllan]
17:09:52 [Zakim]
4. survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/abc/ [from JAllan]
17:09:53 [Zakim]
5. review comments - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JulSep/0010.html [from JAllan]
17:12:35 [JAllan]
JAllan has joined #ua
17:13:56 [jeanne2]
jeanne2 has joined #ua
17:15:06 [JAllan]
attending TPAC - Jim, Jeanne, Kim, Greg, Mark (tentative), Kelly (tentative)
17:15:22 [JAllan]
we will have phone bridge availability
17:17:37 [jeanne2]
http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/SessionIdeas
17:25:07 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
17:25:07 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:25:08 [Zakim]
1. Register for TPAC http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ [from JAllan]
17:25:11 [Zakim]
2. Resolve configure important items, UA determine relationships. [from JAllan]
17:25:13 [Zakim]
3. Review/Resolve outstanding issues [from JAllan]
17:25:15 [Zakim]
4. survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/abc/ [from JAllan]
17:25:17 [Zakim]
5. review comments - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JulSep/0010.html [from JAllan]
17:25:21 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 1
17:25:21 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Register for TPAC http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/, closed
17:25:23 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:25:24 [Zakim]
2. Resolve configure important items, UA determine relationships. [from JAllan]
17:32:21 [JAllan]
zakim, open item 4
17:32:21 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/abc/" taken up [from JAllan]
17:33:28 [JAllan]
topic: guideline 1.7 style sheets
17:33:41 [JAllan]
user style sheets are important.
17:34:16 [JAllan]
browser UI tools are difficult, must use developer tools to change styles.
17:34:41 [JAllan]
comment: user styles should be easier to load and switch
17:35:00 [jeanne2]
User stylesheets are critically important to low vision users.
17:35:13 [JAllan]
comment: safari has a good interface, firefox not so much
17:35:59 [JAllan]
scribe: jallan
17:37:00 [JAllan]
JS: new css stuff coming out should add conditionals to styles and when they appear.
17:39:57 [Greg]
http://www.conditional-css.com/ is first page found searching for conditional CSS using search engines, but I don't know if it's the same effort.
17:41:43 [jeanne2]
JA: CSS is a challenge to assistive technology anyway, because it doesn't write to the DOM. Injected text is a real problem.
17:42:30 [jeanne2]
JA: UAAG: The user can override the author stylesheet
17:43:05 [Greg]
I wonder if we'll need a success criterion allowing user to override specific pieces of information, such as telling the browser to lie about the browser and/or platforms versions.
17:43:26 [JAllan]
js: does the user style sheet override any conditionals...YES. conditionals are seen as being useful for user style sheets,
17:45:10 [JAllan]
... conditionals should be coming out soon as a working draft. comment now
17:51:13 [JAllan]
all agree that CSS and User CSS is important. will stay in the document
17:54:36 [JAllan]
1.7.1 Author Style Sheets: The user can turn off the use of author style sheets, and for every author style sheet defined the user can choose whether or not it should be applied to (a) the current page, or (b) all pages for which it is defined.
17:54:49 [JAllan]
1.7.2 User Style Sheets: The user can turn off the use of user style sheets, and for every user style sheet defined the user can choose whether or not it should be applied to (a) the current page, or (b) all pages on the current web site, or (c) all pages.
17:58:07 [Greg]
Might change that from "on the current web site" to "on specified web sites".
17:58:55 [JAllan]
action: JS insert text above into the draft.
17:58:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-612 - Insert text above into the draft. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-09-15].
17:59:22 [JAllan]
topic: proposed SC for additional CSS support
17:59:36 [Greg]
First draft of a new SC: The user can specify how the user agent will identify itself, the platform, and the media type. This applies but is not limited to reporting information for servers and to scripts, loading media-dependent style sheets, and processing conditional style sheets. (AA)
18:02:57 [Greg]
Jim says he's actually done that, when things wouldn't render in Opera he'd tell Opera to identify itself to servers as IE, and then things would work correctly. He's also hacked gmail to get mobile view on desktop, which is better for screen reader users. Mark notes opposite, where the Samsung tablet defaults to mobile view, but the device is powerful enough to use the default rendering instead.
18:04:07 [JAllan]
js: this seems a hack and may be out dated. perhaps say want the user to be able to choose how the information will be rendered
18:04:57 [Greg]
s/for servers/to servers/
18:08:59 [JAllan]
kp: gmail labs, change keyboard short cuts using multiple characters (3) . useful for speech user, could add ] before letters to not speak a keyboard command by accident.
18:09:31 [JAllan]
... let user adjust everything that cuts across disabilities. the above is an example of that.
18:12:29 [JAllan]
... is it possible to add input method to the list of items that the browser sends to the server
18:13:36 [JAllan]
gl: interesting. is there a keyboard, or pointing device.
18:14:04 [JAllan]
kp: the more information the browser has, the better it can deliver information. this is a larger issue
18:18:43 [JAllan]
these are also important for the mobile platform
18:20:15 [JAllan]
interfaces include: keyboard, pointer (mouse), touch screen (no pointer), multi-touch, air gesture, speech interface
18:21:22 [Greg]
Another possible SC:
18:21:24 [Greg]
1.7.x Save copies of style sheets: The user can save copies of the style sheets referenced by the current page, so that they can edit and load them as user style sheets. (AA)
18:22:46 [JAllan]
gl: many AT emulate keyboards, sometimes it is important to know if it is keyboard emulator or a real keyboard, and sometimes not.
18:23:44 [Greg]
Does HTML5 provide a means for scripts or servers to determine which input devices/capabilities the user's system has available?
18:25:49 [JAllan]
KP: interface issue is similar to the keyboard focus issue and keyboard short cuts. mouse users don't need either, but speech users need both
18:28:23 [JAllan]
MH: burden on the UA to keep track of CSS. is there anyway that CSS may be dynamic? then what
18:29:00 [JAllan]
gl: also, you save a style sheet, and there are 15 associated with a page. what applies to what, which are relevant
18:29:27 [JAllan]
mh: what happens when author changes the CSS. is user alerted
18:30:15 [Greg]
Mark points out that if the user saves a copy of an author style sheet and edits it to be a user style sheet, it can become outdated.
18:31:09 [JAllan]
mh: CSS is transparent to the user. need to be experienced to deal with css.
18:31:42 [Greg]
Mark suggests a user agent feature that informs the user when the author style sheet has changed, so they can be warned that they may need to edit their user style sheet accordingly.
18:33:03 [JAllan]
gl: this is part of a broad range of items that the user may want to keep track of in their settings.
18:33:59 [JAllan]
mh: this is different from the user being able to change the CSS at the source
18:35:39 [JAllan]
action: add 1.7.x ave copies of style sheets: The user can save copies of the style sheets referenced by the current page, so that they can edit and load them as user style sheets. (AA) and 1.7.y user agent feature that informs the user when the author style sheet has changed, so they can be warned that they may need to edit their user style sheet accordingly
18:35:39 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - add
18:35:55 [JAllan]
action: jallan add 1.7.x ave copies of style sheets: The user can save copies of the style sheets referenced by the current page, so that they can edit and load them as user style sheets. (AA) and 1.7.y user agent feature that informs the user when the author style sheet has changed, so they can be warned that they may need to edit their user style sheet accordingly
18:35:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-613 - Add 1.7.x ave copies of style sheets: The user can save copies of the style sheets referenced by the current page, so that they can edit and load them as user style sheets. (AA) and 1.7.y user agent feature that informs the user when the author style sheet has changed, so they can be warned that they may need to edit their user style sheet accordingly [on Jim Allan - due 2011-09-15].
18:36:35 [Zakim]
-Mark_Hakkinen
18:36:41 [Greg]
We probably need to do a better job of making SC require decent usability for these features. The 1.7.x is an attempt to make it easy for the user to do something that they could always do, but would otherwise require a lot of effort and technical knowledge.
18:42:20 [jeanne2]
topic: Ideas for TPAC
18:42:25 [JAllan]
perhaps a plenary session on platform input methods issues - adjusting to user system preferences, and explosion of input methods
18:42:33 [jeanne2]
Kim: Adjusting to the explosion of input methods
18:43:39 [Zakim]
-Kim
18:43:41 [Zakim]
-Greg
18:43:44 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:43:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/08-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:43:44 [Zakim]
-jeanne
18:43:52 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
18:43:53 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:43:55 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.617.324.aaaa, jeanne, Jim_Allan, Mark_Hakkinen, +1.425.895.aabb, Greg, +1.617.325.aacc, Kim
18:45:04 [JAllan]
present: jallan, MarkH, KimP, GregL, Jeanne
18:45:08 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:45:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/08-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:47:05 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
18:47:05 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/08-ua-actions.rdf :
18:47:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS insert text above into the draft. [1]
18:47:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/08-ua-irc#T17-58-55
18:47:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: add 1.7.x ave copies of style sheets: The user can save copies of the style sheets referenced by the current page, so that they can edit and load them as user style sheets. (AA) and 1.7.y user agent feature that informs the user when the author style sheet has changed, so they can be warned that they may need to edit their user style sheet accordingly [2]
18:47:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/08-ua-irc#T18-35-39
18:47:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jallan add 1.7.x ave copies of style sheets: The user can save copies of the style sheets referenced by the current page, so that they can edit and load them as user style sheets. (AA) and 1.7.y user agent feature that informs the user when the author style sheet has changed, so they can be warned that they may need to edit their user style sheet accordingly [3]
18:47:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/08-ua-irc#T18-35-55