IRC log of css on 2011-09-07
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 15:20:03 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #css
- 15:20:03 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/07-css-irc
- 15:20:11 [glazou]
- Zakim, this will be Style
- 15:20:11 [Zakim]
- ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 40 minutes
- 15:20:16 [glazou]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 15:21:38 [glazou]
- Regrets from Tab, BradK, John, Cesar
- 15:26:16 [glazou]
- Regrets from Arno
- 15:33:18 [vhardy]
- vhardy has joined #css
- 15:37:04 [stearns]
- stearns has joined #css
- 15:47:52 [nimbupani]
- nimbupani has joined #css
- 15:58:04 [glazou]
- Zakim, code?
- 15:58:14 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
- 15:58:20 [dsinger_]
- dsinger_ has joined #css
- 15:58:26 [Zakim]
- Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
- 15:58:34 [Zakim]
- +??P36
- 15:58:38 [Zakim]
- + +1.858.354.aaaa
- 15:58:42 [glazou]
- Zakim, ??P36 is me
- 15:58:42 [Zakim]
- +glazou; got it
- 15:58:48 [plinss]
- zakim, aaaa is me
- 15:58:48 [Zakim]
- +plinss; got it
- 15:58:53 [Zakim]
- +ChrisL
- 15:59:10 [Zakim]
- + +1.619.846.aabb
- 15:59:35 [plinss]
- zakim, aabb is hober
- 15:59:35 [Zakim]
- +hober; got it
- 15:59:52 [Zakim]
- +??P41
- 16:00:01 [jdaggett]
- zakim, ??p41 is me
- 16:00:02 [Zakim]
- +jdaggett; got it
- 16:00:14 [Zakim]
- +dsinger
- 16:00:17 [dsinger_]
- dsinger_ has joined #css
- 16:00:20 [dsinger_]
- zakim, mute dsinger
- 16:00:20 [Zakim]
- dsinger should now be muted
- 16:00:23 [Zakim]
- + +1.215.286.aacc
- 16:01:00 [kimberlyblessing]
- kimberlyblessing has joined #css
- 16:01:15 [dsinger_]
- zakim, who is here?
- 16:01:15 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see glazou, plinss, ChrisL, hober, jdaggett, dsinger (muted), +1.215.286.aacc
- 16:01:18 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see kimberlyblessing, dsinger_, nimbupani, stearns, vhardy, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, Ms2ger, miketaylr, Martijnc, jdaggett, ChrisL, lhnz, krijnh, anne, karl, gsnedders,
- 16:01:25 [Zakim]
- ... hober, trackbot, CSSWG_LogBot, fantasai, TabAtkins, plinss, ed, Bert, shepazu, Hixie
- 16:01:40 [kimberlyblessing]
- Zakim, I am aacc
- 16:01:41 [Zakim]
- +kimberlyblessing; got it
- 16:02:21 [glazou]
- Zakim, aacc is kimberlyblessing
- 16:02:21 [Zakim]
- sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
- 16:02:23 [smfr]
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- 16:02:24 [arronei]
- arronei has joined #css
- 16:02:37 [Zakim]
- +??P3
- 16:02:49 [glazou]
- lol
- 16:02:49 [alexmog]
- alexmog has joined #css
- 16:02:51 [Zakim]
- +??P49
- 16:02:56 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 16:02:58 [arronei]
- zakim, microsoft is me
- 16:02:58 [Zakim]
- +arronei; got it
- 16:03:00 [Cathy]
- Cathy has joined #css
- 16:03:01 [Zakim]
- + +1.408.636.aadd
- 16:03:10 [kimberlyblessing]
- ChrisL, I think you're just using me because I'm an easy target
- 16:03:11 [Zakim]
- +Bert
- 16:03:15 [smfr]
- Zakim, aadd is me and why didn't you remember?
- 16:03:25 [smfr]
- Zakim, aadd is me
- 16:03:35 [Zakim]
- I don't understand your question, smfr.
- 16:03:38 [glazou]
- dsinger_: http://www.leonidas-chocolate.com/gianduja.html
- 16:03:51 [smfr]
- Zakim, aadd is me
- 16:03:55 [Zakim]
- +smfr; got it
- 16:04:12 [glazou]
- dsinger_: there is a leonidas store at walking distance (20 meters) from the meeting place...
- 16:04:13 [Zakim]
- sorry, smfr, I do not recognize a party named 'aadd'
- 16:04:14 [howcome]
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- 16:04:35 [Zakim]
- + +47.21.65.aaee
- 16:05:06 [glazou]
- eh
- 16:05:26 [Zakim]
- + +1.650.618.aaff
- 16:05:28 [howcome]
- zakim, +47.21.65.aaee is howcome
- 16:05:28 [Zakim]
- +howcome; got it
- 16:05:52 [plinss]
- zakim, aaff is dbaron
- 16:05:52 [Zakim]
- +dbaron; got it
- 16:06:07 [Zakim]
- +cathy
- 16:06:14 [ChrisL]
- scribenick: ChrisL
- 16:06:24 [ChrisL]
- topic: status of antons ie
- 16:07:01 [ChrisL]
- bert: my fault, sent a message to the requests but sent it to wrong place
- 16:07:43 [Zakim]
- +SteveZ
- 16:07:46 [ChrisL]
- (that was tpac)
- 16:08:17 [ChrisL]
- ChrisL: I sent a reminder, should be soon
- 16:08:25 [szilles]
- szilles has joined #css
- 16:08:25 [ChrisL]
- topic: css3 fonts
- 16:08:30 [karl]
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- 16:08:49 [dbaron]
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- 16:08:53 [ChrisL]
- ChrisL: the ed is much more up to date
- 16:09:47 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: prefer to wait a bit untilmore edits made
- 16:09:50 [dsinger_]
- Unless it is actively misleading without the edits, let's publish an then again
- 16:10:10 [ChrisL]
- topic: tpac on sunday or not?
- 16:10:18 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: muchprefer we do
- 16:10:40 [ChrisL]
- zakim,who is speaking?
- 16:10:51 [Zakim]
- ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (14%), plinss (18%), jdaggett (14%), ??P49 (11%), howcome (33%)
- 16:10:54 [ChrisL]
- plinss: spoke to Susan about that
- 16:11:07 [ChrisL]
- fantasai: we could meet elsewhere
- 16:11:42 [dsinger_]
- Ugh
- 16:11:43 [ChrisL]
- glazou:confirmed, we will meet Sunday and willsort out a location later if there is no room at the hotel
- 16:11:44 [fantasai]
- fantasai: We had talked about meeting elsewhere if the hotel was not available
- 16:11:53 [ChrisL]
- topic: writing modes
- 16:12:08 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: goes back to text-orientation. issue of default
- 16:12:30 [ChrisL]
- ... means for a string of random unichars what is the behavious in vertical with no extramarkup
- 16:12:58 [ChrisL]
- ... non-normative wording recommends but not clear if its normative or not
- 16:13:13 [ChrisL]
- ... some contextualrules. koji published a tableof these
- 16:13:32 [ChrisL]
- ... spoke to eric mueller of adone who said its better for Unicode to have a table
- 16:13:43 [jdaggett]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0003.html
- 16:13:43 [ChrisL]
- ... similar but with some important differences
- 16:13:45 [fantasai]
- Um, I don't understand why jdaggett is confused, perhaps he hasn't looked at the draft recently. It says very clearly that the orientations are unequivocally *defined* in Appendix C
- 16:14:00 [fantasai]
- because that's what he wanted
- 16:14:12 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett:says to define a categoryfor each to decide the default orientation
- 16:14:17 [jdaggett]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0042.html
- 16:14:30 [ChrisL]
- ... differences between erics proposal and current spec
- 16:15:10 [dsinger_]
- Isn't material not explicitly marked informative considered therefore normative?
- 16:15:28 [ChrisL]
- ... there is also a category called 'use font' which depends on whether the font has vertical metrics. not clear why that is there
- 16:15:34 [fantasai]
- dsinger_: That is my understanding.
- 16:15:40 [ChrisL]
- ... also some are in basic latin range
- 16:16:08 [ChrisL]
- ... hope koji willadd somethingto clarify if this is important
- 16:16:39 [ChrisL]
- ... Unicode is the right org to maintain this
- 16:17:00 [dsinger_]
- Has Koji been asked to explain? Has the Unicode committee been asked?
- 16:17:07 [smfr]
- tumbleweed
- 16:17:29 [ChrisL]
- szilles:support Eric's proposal
- 16:17:39 [dsinger_]
- Ok
- 16:17:42 [ChrisL]
- ... Unicode has been aske and asked Eric to do it
- 16:17:43 [miketayl_r]
- miketayl_r has joined #css
- 16:18:12 [ChrisL]
- ... its a legitimate Uniocode activity
- 16:18:39 [ChrisL]
- ... issue of deciding whether its upright is independent of the vertical metrics
- 16:19:04 [ChrisL]
- fantasai: if there is no alternate vertical glyph, its better to use the horizontal one
- 16:19:47 [ChrisL]
- ... but we classify fonts as having or not having vertical fonts, this is a bad idea because some fonts have verticalmetrics but lack vertical alternate glyphs
- 16:20:11 [ChrisL]
- ... willproduce brackets that dont encase anything, looks all wrong
- 16:20:36 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: most japanese fonts that are used in web pages have vertical metrics
- 16:21:09 [ChrisL]
- ... dont see actual fonts that have these faults
- 16:21:53 [ChrisL]
- fantasai: dounble quotes in Chinese are unified
- 16:22:21 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett:can't connect thatto your algorithm
- 16:23:03 [ChrisL]
- fantasai: three categories - upright always, vertical always and depends on font
- 16:23:35 [ChrisL]
- szilles: then the font is bad and people will stop using it
- 16:23:47 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: adding lots of mechanics that are not needed
- 16:24:11 [ChrisL]
- ... issues of fallback too,may hit a Japanese or not Japanese font. fallback fonts are random
- 16:24:30 [Zakim]
- -arronei
- 16:24:36 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: if you are making another proposal, we need to look at that.
- 16:24:48 [ChrisL]
- .... some discussion not on www-style
- 16:24:55 [dsinger_]
- But I think that the case where you hoped for a vertical font but got fallback should be handled?
- 16:25:31 [ChrisL]
- szilles: adobe position is that upright should not be determined by looking in the font. you decide upright or notthen use the font infortmation
- 16:25:42 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 16:25:43 [arronei]
- zakim, microsoft is me
- 16:25:43 [ChrisL]
- ... if you correct bad fonts then you break good ones
- 16:25:44 [Zakim]
- +arronei; got it
- 16:26:01 [ChrisL]
- ... not clear there is an immediate need to fix bad fonts
- 16:26:14 [ChrisL]
- fantasai;author does not always have that opportunity
- 16:26:41 [ChrisL]
- ... common example is em-dashes. often no verticalalternates, but if typeset sideways you get the wrong positioning
- 16:27:16 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: we are talking about the default,not what is possible and not possible.
- 16:27:33 [ChrisL]
- ... so why make the simple case complex, authors can solve with markup
- 16:28:08 [ChrisL]
- fantasai:markup does not fix bad fonts
- 16:28:28 [ChrisL]
- szilles: thought this onlyapplied if it was set upright
- 16:29:01 [ChrisL]
- fantasai: correct behaviour is to set them upright and for all fonts to have alternates
- 16:30:00 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett:if there are cases nt covered by Erics proposal we need to flush them out. Can't do this on the fly
- 16:30:08 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett; need to record the examples
- 16:30:20 [ChrisL]
- szilles: put on a wiki
- 16:30:28 [dsinger]
- dsinger has joined #css
- 16:30:32 [Zakim]
- +[Apple]
- 16:30:45 [Zakim]
- -dsinger
- 16:30:47 [ChrisL]
- fantasai: Koji and I are making a list of allthe codepoints and their behaviour
- 16:30:52 [dsinger]
- zakim, [apple] has dsinger
- 16:30:52 [Zakim]
- +dsinger; got it
- 16:31:12 [ChrisL]
- szilles: vert feature only applies to upright characters in vertical text
- 16:31:28 [ChrisL]
- ...not to rotated characters
- 16:32:22 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: some ascii chars have no vertical alternates,and this sounds as if it is making the alternats on the fly
- 16:32:45 [ChrisL]
- ... synthesising is always problematic.
- 16:33:19 [nimbupani]
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- 16:33:21 [ChrisL]
- fantasai:so its a semantic confusion. you think i am synthesisingan upright glyph where I see it as fallback
- 16:33:50 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: want to see a clear definition of why its a problem. need specific use cases
- 16:34:21 [ChrisL]
- szilles: rotation is only one way to synthesise a glyph
- 16:34:31 [ChrisL]
- fantasai: how else would you do it
- 16:34:42 [ChrisL]
- szilles: dont want the synthesis to be codified
- 16:35:08 [ChrisL]
- fantasai: distinction between chars that look upright and ones that must have an alternate
- 16:35:36 [ChrisL]
- ... hiragana miht have a different positioning for example
- 16:35:56 [ChrisL]
- ... but if not alternate, its fine if its missing
- 16:36:08 [ChrisL]
- ... while for parentheses, an alternate is mandatory
- 16:36:17 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: in either case it is the same
- 16:36:23 [ChrisL]
- fantasai: not really
- 16:36:34 [ChrisL]
- szilles: these are different types of wrong
- 16:37:23 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: common pattern in western companies is to develop japanese fonts in China and the shae is known but the patterns are wrong. so the placement of hragana is wrong and looks wrong
- 16:37:45 [ChrisL]
- ... very helpfulto have what you are now proposaing, different from the spec as it is now
- 16:38:08 [ChrisL]
- szilles: markup to set vertical shoudltrigger the vert feature
- 16:38:29 [ChrisL]
- fantasai: definition of upright is thatallchars are upright
- 16:38:59 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: only apply vert feature to runs of vert text
- 16:39:29 [ChrisL]
- szilles: want synthesis so only done after upright or not has been determined
- 16:39:43 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: please post proposalto www-style
- 16:40:02 [ChrisL]
- dsinger: good to see a comparison
- 16:40:08 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: posted that earlier
- 16:40:37 [ChrisL]
- dsinger:good to see some more written discussion
- 16:40:58 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: there is a lot of data on the list
- 16:41:12 [Zakim]
- -??P49
- 16:41:15 [ChrisL]
- ... but little in responses
- 16:41:50 [ChrisL]
- szilles:so we have a distinction between the determination phase and the fixup phase
- 16:41:54 [bradk]
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- 16:42:02 [ChrisL]
- ... this is an important result of todays discussion
- 16:42:12 [Zakim]
- + +1.415.920.aagg
- 16:42:23 [ChrisL]
- ... dont care if this is updated in the spec first or in a proposal
- 16:42:24 [fantasai]
- zakim, ??P49 was fantasai
- 16:42:24 [Zakim]
- I don't understand '??P49 was fantasai', fantasai
- 16:42:30 [fantasai]
- zakim, ??P49 is fantasai
- 16:42:30 [Zakim]
- I already had ??P49 as ??P49, fantasai
- 16:42:39 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: we need more analysis on the data before updatingthe spec
- 16:42:41 [fantasai]
- Zakim: aagg is fantasai
- 16:42:46 [fantasai]
- Zakim, aagg is fantasai
- 16:42:46 [Zakim]
- +fantasai; got it
- 16:43:17 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: we need to talk about specific characters in specific situations where it breaks in vertical
- 16:43:30 [ChrisL]
- szilles: please say that on the list
- 16:43:34 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: ok
- 16:44:22 [ChrisL]
- topic: cpsp and text transform
- 16:44:30 [glazou]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0058.html
- 16:44:37 [glazou]
- http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm#cpsp
- 16:45:05 [ChrisL]
- glazou:fantasai you raised the issue
- 16:45:17 [ChrisL]
- fantasai: yes.
- 16:45:49 [ChrisL]
- szilles: thought we were trying to avoid property interactions
- 16:46:04 [Zakim]
- -ChrisL
- 16:46:43 [glazou]
- we lost Chris
- 16:46:49 [Zakim]
- +ChrisL
- 16:47:39 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett:cpsp is capital spacing, and in InDesign its enabled if you set all caps on a selection. slightly widens the spacing
- 16:47:53 [ChrisL]
- ... as default spacig is for mixed case
- 16:48:47 [ChrisL]
- ... problem is that applying text transform wont give the effect if text is already in caps. regularly pointed out. should be intrinsic to the font
- 16:48:57 [jdaggett]
- http://kltf.de/downloads/ATypI2007-CrossingBorders-kltf.pdf
- 16:49:17 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett:seep.28 of that ATypI presentation
- 16:50:17 [ChrisL]
- ... slide shows standard spacing, and cpsp, and contextual kerning
- 16:50:44 [ChrisL]
- ... spacing is really intrinsic to the font,not a feature
- 16:51:29 [ChrisL]
- ... not clearif we should support this feature; better to add to font-variant as an exclusinve value to stop people usingwirth small caps. to avoid feature interactions
- 16:52:01 [ChrisL]
- ... hoping to hear more typophile opinions. on the top of my head its not a good idea
- 16:52:14 [ChrisL]
- fantasai: so tentative resolution is this is not an issue
- 16:52:31 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett; yes. people can always use lower levelfeatures to tweak this
- 16:52:46 [glazou]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011May/0602.html
- 16:52:57 [ChrisL]
- topic: Greek
- 16:53:26 [ChrisL]
- fantasai:if dropping accents its complicated. its not just 'remove allthe accents'
- 16:53:58 [ChrisL]
- ... unicode tablesare for single letters not for wholewords
- 16:54:13 [ChrisL]
- ... whole words drop accents so does the first letter
- 16:54:48 [ChrisL]
- ... not in Unicode and not doablewith a simpletable. so we shouldnot require it, but we couldallow it
- 16:55:37 [ChrisL]
- howcome: could so this with a dictionary
- 16:55:56 [ChrisL]
- glazou;from a users perspective it shouldcertainly be allowed
- 16:56:22 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett: slippery slope to allow UAs to do their own thing
- 16:56:40 [ChrisL]
- glazou: we should accept what native Greek users want
- 16:56:58 [ChrisL]
- glazou:Unicode works with characters and glyphs, not words
- 16:57:16 [ChrisL]
- szilles: line break rules are word based
- 16:58:31 [ChrisL]
- fantasai:only one character lookup
- 16:58:36 [fantasai]
- szilles, actually, the line break rules are character-pair based
- 16:59:36 [ChrisL]
- ChrisL: Unicode has some problems withGreek already
- 16:59:58 [ChrisL]
- action: Chris to contact Unicode about the greek upercasingissue
- 16:59:58 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-362 - Contact Unicode about the greek upercasingissue [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-09-14].
- 17:00:18 [ChrisL]
- fantasai: ok great but that wont help this spec in the short term
- 17:00:59 [ChrisL]
- fantasai: preference is to have what is in Unicode as a minimum bar and allow better
- 17:01:13 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett:concurr with minimum bar, uneasy on extending
- 17:01:28 [ChrisL]
- glazou: not only browsers render html/css
- 17:01:42 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett; happyif they hit that minimum bar
- 17:01:58 [ChrisL]
- glazou: elika you should add both suggestions
- 17:02:15 [ChrisL]
- jdaggett;dont like the "if and only if" language
- 17:02:35 [ChrisL]
- fantasai: please post wording proposals
- 17:02:56 [Zakim]
- -dbaron
- 17:03:03 [ChrisL]
- action: jdaggett to post wording proposals
- 17:03:03 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-363 - Post wording proposals [on John Daggett - due 2011-09-14].
- 17:03:16 [Zakim]
- -jdaggett
- 17:03:21 [dsinger]
- bye
- 17:03:21 [Zakim]
- -arronei
- 17:03:22 [ChrisL]
- resolution: uas can do better than the Unicode minimum
- 17:03:22 [Zakim]
- -kimberlyblessing
- 17:03:22 [Zakim]
- -glazou
- 17:03:23 [Zakim]
- -hober
- 17:03:23 [Zakim]
- -smfr
- 17:03:25 [Zakim]
- -howcome
- 17:03:25 [Zakim]
- -[Apple]
- 17:03:27 [Zakim]
- -SteveZ
- 17:03:28 [Zakim]
- -fantasai
- 17:03:30 [Zakim]
- -??P3
- 17:03:32 [Zakim]
- -plinss
- 17:03:34 [Zakim]
- -Bert
- 17:03:39 [ChrisL]
- fantasai please turn my jumbled crap into nice minutes
- 17:04:04 [ChrisL]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 17:04:04 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/07-css-minutes.html ChrisL
- 17:04:17 [Zakim]
- -cathy
- 17:09:18 [Zakim]
- disconnecting the lone participant, ChrisL, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
- 17:09:19 [Zakim]
- Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
- 17:09:23 [Zakim]
- Attendees were +1.858.354.aaaa, glazou, plinss, ChrisL, +1.619.846.aabb, hober, jdaggett, dsinger, +1.215.286.aacc, kimberlyblessing, arronei, +1.408.636.aadd, Bert, smfr,
- 17:09:25 [Zakim]
- ... +1.650.618.aaff, howcome, dbaron, cathy, SteveZ, +1.415.920.aagg, fantasai
- 17:16:23 [bradk]
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- dbaron has joined #css
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