IRC log of css on 2011-09-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:20:03 [RRSAgent]
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15:20:03 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:20:11 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:20:11 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 40 minutes
15:20:16 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:21:38 [glazou]
Regrets from Tab, BradK, John, Cesar
15:26:16 [glazou]
Regrets from Arno
15:33:18 [vhardy]
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15:37:04 [stearns]
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15:47:52 [nimbupani]
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15:58:04 [glazou]
Zakim, code?
15:58:14 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, glazou
15:58:20 [dsinger_]
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15:58:26 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:58:34 [Zakim]
15:58:38 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.354.aaaa
15:58:42 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P36 is me
15:58:42 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:58:48 [plinss]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:58:48 [Zakim]
+plinss; got it
15:58:53 [Zakim]
15:59:10 [Zakim]
+ +1.619.846.aabb
15:59:35 [plinss]
zakim, aabb is hober
15:59:35 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
15:59:52 [Zakim]
16:00:01 [jdaggett]
zakim, ??p41 is me
16:00:02 [Zakim]
+jdaggett; got it
16:00:14 [Zakim]
16:00:17 [dsinger_]
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16:00:20 [dsinger_]
zakim, mute dsinger
16:00:20 [Zakim]
dsinger should now be muted
16:00:23 [Zakim]
+ +1.215.286.aacc
16:01:00 [kimberlyblessing]
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16:01:15 [dsinger_]
zakim, who is here?
16:01:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see glazou, plinss, ChrisL, hober, jdaggett, dsinger (muted), +1.215.286.aacc
16:01:18 [Zakim]
On IRC I see kimberlyblessing, dsinger_, nimbupani, stearns, vhardy, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, Ms2ger, miketaylr, Martijnc, jdaggett, ChrisL, lhnz, krijnh, anne, karl, gsnedders,
16:01:25 [Zakim]
... hober, trackbot, CSSWG_LogBot, fantasai, TabAtkins, plinss, ed, Bert, shepazu, Hixie
16:01:40 [kimberlyblessing]
Zakim, I am aacc
16:01:41 [Zakim]
+kimberlyblessing; got it
16:02:21 [glazou]
Zakim, aacc is kimberlyblessing
16:02:21 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
16:02:23 [smfr]
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arronei has joined #css
16:02:37 [Zakim]
16:02:49 [glazou]
16:02:49 [alexmog]
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16:02:51 [Zakim]
16:02:56 [Zakim]
16:02:58 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft is me
16:02:58 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:03:00 [Cathy]
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16:03:01 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.636.aadd
16:03:10 [kimberlyblessing]
ChrisL, I think you're just using me because I'm an easy target
16:03:11 [Zakim]
16:03:15 [smfr]
Zakim, aadd is me and why didn't you remember?
16:03:25 [smfr]
Zakim, aadd is me
16:03:35 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, smfr.
16:03:38 [glazou]
16:03:51 [smfr]
Zakim, aadd is me
16:03:55 [Zakim]
+smfr; got it
16:04:12 [glazou]
dsinger_: there is a leonidas store at walking distance (20 meters) from the meeting place...
16:04:13 [Zakim]
sorry, smfr, I do not recognize a party named 'aadd'
16:04:14 [howcome]
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16:04:35 [Zakim]
+ +47.21.65.aaee
16:05:06 [glazou]
16:05:26 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.618.aaff
16:05:28 [howcome]
zakim, +47.21.65.aaee is howcome
16:05:28 [Zakim]
+howcome; got it
16:05:52 [plinss]
zakim, aaff is dbaron
16:05:52 [Zakim]
+dbaron; got it
16:06:07 [Zakim]
16:06:14 [ChrisL]
scribenick: ChrisL
16:06:24 [ChrisL]
topic: status of antons ie
16:07:01 [ChrisL]
bert: my fault, sent a message to the requests but sent it to wrong place
16:07:43 [Zakim]
16:07:46 [ChrisL]
(that was tpac)
16:08:17 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: I sent a reminder, should be soon
16:08:25 [szilles]
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16:08:25 [ChrisL]
topic: css3 fonts
16:08:30 [karl]
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16:08:49 [dbaron]
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16:08:53 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: the ed is much more up to date
16:09:47 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: prefer to wait a bit untilmore edits made
16:09:50 [dsinger_]
Unless it is actively misleading without the edits, let's publish an then again
16:10:10 [ChrisL]
topic: tpac on sunday or not?
16:10:18 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: muchprefer we do
16:10:40 [ChrisL]
zakim,who is speaking?
16:10:51 [Zakim]
ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (14%), plinss (18%), jdaggett (14%), ??P49 (11%), howcome (33%)
16:10:54 [ChrisL]
plinss: spoke to Susan about that
16:11:07 [ChrisL]
fantasai: we could meet elsewhere
16:11:42 [dsinger_]
16:11:43 [ChrisL]
glazou:confirmed, we will meet Sunday and willsort out a location later if there is no room at the hotel
16:11:44 [fantasai]
fantasai: We had talked about meeting elsewhere if the hotel was not available
16:11:53 [ChrisL]
topic: writing modes
16:12:08 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: goes back to text-orientation. issue of default
16:12:30 [ChrisL]
... means for a string of random unichars what is the behavious in vertical with no extramarkup
16:12:58 [ChrisL]
... non-normative wording recommends but not clear if its normative or not
16:13:13 [ChrisL]
... some contextualrules. koji published a tableof these
16:13:32 [ChrisL]
... spoke to eric mueller of adone who said its better for Unicode to have a table
16:13:43 [jdaggett]
16:13:43 [ChrisL]
... similar but with some important differences
16:13:45 [fantasai]
Um, I don't understand why jdaggett is confused, perhaps he hasn't looked at the draft recently. It says very clearly that the orientations are unequivocally *defined* in Appendix C
16:14:00 [fantasai]
because that's what he wanted
16:14:12 [ChrisL]
jdaggett:says to define a categoryfor each to decide the default orientation
16:14:17 [jdaggett]
16:14:30 [ChrisL]
... differences between erics proposal and current spec
16:15:10 [dsinger_]
Isn't material not explicitly marked informative considered therefore normative?
16:15:28 [ChrisL]
... there is also a category called 'use font' which depends on whether the font has vertical metrics. not clear why that is there
16:15:34 [fantasai]
dsinger_: That is my understanding.
16:15:40 [ChrisL]
... also some are in basic latin range
16:16:08 [ChrisL]
... hope koji willadd somethingto clarify if this is important
16:16:39 [ChrisL]
... Unicode is the right org to maintain this
16:17:00 [dsinger_]
Has Koji been asked to explain? Has the Unicode committee been asked?
16:17:07 [smfr]
16:17:29 [ChrisL]
szilles:support Eric's proposal
16:17:39 [dsinger_]
16:17:42 [ChrisL]
... Unicode has been aske and asked Eric to do it
16:17:43 [miketayl_r]
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16:18:12 [ChrisL]
... its a legitimate Uniocode activity
16:18:39 [ChrisL]
... issue of deciding whether its upright is independent of the vertical metrics
16:19:04 [ChrisL]
fantasai: if there is no alternate vertical glyph, its better to use the horizontal one
16:19:47 [ChrisL]
... but we classify fonts as having or not having vertical fonts, this is a bad idea because some fonts have verticalmetrics but lack vertical alternate glyphs
16:20:11 [ChrisL]
... willproduce brackets that dont encase anything, looks all wrong
16:20:36 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: most japanese fonts that are used in web pages have vertical metrics
16:21:09 [ChrisL]
... dont see actual fonts that have these faults
16:21:53 [ChrisL]
fantasai: dounble quotes in Chinese are unified
16:22:21 [ChrisL]
jdaggett:can't connect thatto your algorithm
16:23:03 [ChrisL]
fantasai: three categories - upright always, vertical always and depends on font
16:23:35 [ChrisL]
szilles: then the font is bad and people will stop using it
16:23:47 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: adding lots of mechanics that are not needed
16:24:11 [ChrisL]
... issues of fallback too,may hit a Japanese or not Japanese font. fallback fonts are random
16:24:30 [Zakim]
16:24:36 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: if you are making another proposal, we need to look at that.
16:24:48 [ChrisL]
.... some discussion not on www-style
16:24:55 [dsinger_]
But I think that the case where you hoped for a vertical font but got fallback should be handled?
16:25:31 [ChrisL]
szilles: adobe position is that upright should not be determined by looking in the font. you decide upright or notthen use the font infortmation
16:25:42 [Zakim]
16:25:43 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft is me
16:25:43 [ChrisL]
... if you correct bad fonts then you break good ones
16:25:44 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:26:01 [ChrisL]
... not clear there is an immediate need to fix bad fonts
16:26:14 [ChrisL]
fantasai;author does not always have that opportunity
16:26:41 [ChrisL]
... common example is em-dashes. often no verticalalternates, but if typeset sideways you get the wrong positioning
16:27:16 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: we are talking about the default,not what is possible and not possible.
16:27:33 [ChrisL]
... so why make the simple case complex, authors can solve with markup
16:28:08 [ChrisL]
fantasai:markup does not fix bad fonts
16:28:28 [ChrisL]
szilles: thought this onlyapplied if it was set upright
16:29:01 [ChrisL]
fantasai: correct behaviour is to set them upright and for all fonts to have alternates
16:30:00 [ChrisL]
jdaggett:if there are cases nt covered by Erics proposal we need to flush them out. Can't do this on the fly
16:30:08 [ChrisL]
jdaggett; need to record the examples
16:30:20 [ChrisL]
szilles: put on a wiki
16:30:28 [dsinger]
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16:30:32 [Zakim]
16:30:45 [Zakim]
16:30:47 [ChrisL]
fantasai: Koji and I are making a list of allthe codepoints and their behaviour
16:30:52 [dsinger]
zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:30:52 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
16:31:12 [ChrisL]
szilles: vert feature only applies to upright characters in vertical text
16:31:28 [ChrisL]
...not to rotated characters
16:32:22 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: some ascii chars have no vertical alternates,and this sounds as if it is making the alternats on the fly
16:32:45 [ChrisL]
... synthesising is always problematic.
16:33:19 [nimbupani]
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16:33:21 [ChrisL]
fantasai:so its a semantic confusion. you think i am synthesisingan upright glyph where I see it as fallback
16:33:50 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: want to see a clear definition of why its a problem. need specific use cases
16:34:21 [ChrisL]
szilles: rotation is only one way to synthesise a glyph
16:34:31 [ChrisL]
fantasai: how else would you do it
16:34:42 [ChrisL]
szilles: dont want the synthesis to be codified
16:35:08 [ChrisL]
fantasai: distinction between chars that look upright and ones that must have an alternate
16:35:36 [ChrisL]
... hiragana miht have a different positioning for example
16:35:56 [ChrisL]
... but if not alternate, its fine if its missing
16:36:08 [ChrisL]
... while for parentheses, an alternate is mandatory
16:36:17 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: in either case it is the same
16:36:23 [ChrisL]
fantasai: not really
16:36:34 [ChrisL]
szilles: these are different types of wrong
16:37:23 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: common pattern in western companies is to develop japanese fonts in China and the shae is known but the patterns are wrong. so the placement of hragana is wrong and looks wrong
16:37:45 [ChrisL]
... very helpfulto have what you are now proposaing, different from the spec as it is now
16:38:08 [ChrisL]
szilles: markup to set vertical shoudltrigger the vert feature
16:38:29 [ChrisL]
fantasai: definition of upright is thatallchars are upright
16:38:59 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: only apply vert feature to runs of vert text
16:39:29 [ChrisL]
szilles: want synthesis so only done after upright or not has been determined
16:39:43 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: please post proposalto www-style
16:40:02 [ChrisL]
dsinger: good to see a comparison
16:40:08 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: posted that earlier
16:40:37 [ChrisL]
dsinger:good to see some more written discussion
16:40:58 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: there is a lot of data on the list
16:41:12 [Zakim]
16:41:15 [ChrisL]
... but little in responses
16:41:50 [ChrisL]
szilles:so we have a distinction between the determination phase and the fixup phase
16:41:54 [bradk]
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16:42:02 [ChrisL]
... this is an important result of todays discussion
16:42:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.920.aagg
16:42:23 [ChrisL]
... dont care if this is updated in the spec first or in a proposal
16:42:24 [fantasai]
zakim, ??P49 was fantasai
16:42:24 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P49 was fantasai', fantasai
16:42:30 [fantasai]
zakim, ??P49 is fantasai
16:42:30 [Zakim]
I already had ??P49 as ??P49, fantasai
16:42:39 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: we need more analysis on the data before updatingthe spec
16:42:41 [fantasai]
Zakim: aagg is fantasai
16:42:46 [fantasai]
Zakim, aagg is fantasai
16:42:46 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:43:17 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: we need to talk about specific characters in specific situations where it breaks in vertical
16:43:30 [ChrisL]
szilles: please say that on the list
16:43:34 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: ok
16:44:22 [ChrisL]
topic: cpsp and text transform
16:44:30 [glazou]
16:44:37 [glazou]
16:45:05 [ChrisL]
glazou:fantasai you raised the issue
16:45:17 [ChrisL]
fantasai: yes.
16:45:49 [ChrisL]
szilles: thought we were trying to avoid property interactions
16:46:04 [Zakim]
16:46:43 [glazou]
we lost Chris
16:46:49 [Zakim]
16:47:39 [ChrisL]
jdaggett:cpsp is capital spacing, and in InDesign its enabled if you set all caps on a selection. slightly widens the spacing
16:47:53 [ChrisL]
... as default spacig is for mixed case
16:48:47 [ChrisL]
... problem is that applying text transform wont give the effect if text is already in caps. regularly pointed out. should be intrinsic to the font
16:48:57 [jdaggett]
16:49:17 [ChrisL]
jdaggett:seep.28 of that ATypI presentation
16:50:17 [ChrisL]
... slide shows standard spacing, and cpsp, and contextual kerning
16:50:44 [ChrisL]
... spacing is really intrinsic to the font,not a feature
16:51:29 [ChrisL]
... not clearif we should support this feature; better to add to font-variant as an exclusinve value to stop people usingwirth small caps. to avoid feature interactions
16:52:01 [ChrisL]
... hoping to hear more typophile opinions. on the top of my head its not a good idea
16:52:14 [ChrisL]
fantasai: so tentative resolution is this is not an issue
16:52:31 [ChrisL]
jdaggett; yes. people can always use lower levelfeatures to tweak this
16:52:46 [glazou]
16:52:57 [ChrisL]
topic: Greek
16:53:26 [ChrisL]
fantasai:if dropping accents its complicated. its not just 'remove allthe accents'
16:53:58 [ChrisL]
... unicode tablesare for single letters not for wholewords
16:54:13 [ChrisL]
... whole words drop accents so does the first letter
16:54:48 [ChrisL]
... not in Unicode and not doablewith a simpletable. so we shouldnot require it, but we couldallow it
16:55:37 [ChrisL]
howcome: could so this with a dictionary
16:55:56 [ChrisL]
glazou;from a users perspective it shouldcertainly be allowed
16:56:22 [ChrisL]
jdaggett: slippery slope to allow UAs to do their own thing
16:56:40 [ChrisL]
glazou: we should accept what native Greek users want
16:56:58 [ChrisL]
glazou:Unicode works with characters and glyphs, not words
16:57:16 [ChrisL]
szilles: line break rules are word based
16:58:31 [ChrisL]
fantasai:only one character lookup
16:58:36 [fantasai]
szilles, actually, the line break rules are character-pair based
16:59:36 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: Unicode has some problems withGreek already
16:59:58 [ChrisL]
action: Chris to contact Unicode about the greek upercasingissue
16:59:58 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-362 - Contact Unicode about the greek upercasingissue [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-09-14].
17:00:18 [ChrisL]
fantasai: ok great but that wont help this spec in the short term
17:00:59 [ChrisL]
fantasai: preference is to have what is in Unicode as a minimum bar and allow better
17:01:13 [ChrisL]
jdaggett:concurr with minimum bar, uneasy on extending
17:01:28 [ChrisL]
glazou: not only browsers render html/css
17:01:42 [ChrisL]
jdaggett; happyif they hit that minimum bar
17:01:58 [ChrisL]
glazou: elika you should add both suggestions
17:02:15 [ChrisL]
jdaggett;dont like the "if and only if" language
17:02:35 [ChrisL]
fantasai: please post wording proposals
17:02:56 [Zakim]
17:03:03 [ChrisL]
action: jdaggett to post wording proposals
17:03:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-363 - Post wording proposals [on John Daggett - due 2011-09-14].
17:03:16 [Zakim]
17:03:21 [dsinger]
17:03:21 [Zakim]
17:03:22 [ChrisL]
resolution: uas can do better than the Unicode minimum
17:03:22 [Zakim]
17:03:22 [Zakim]
17:03:23 [Zakim]
17:03:23 [Zakim]
17:03:25 [Zakim]
17:03:25 [Zakim]
17:03:27 [Zakim]
17:03:28 [Zakim]
17:03:30 [Zakim]
17:03:32 [Zakim]
17:03:34 [Zakim]
17:03:39 [ChrisL]
fantasai please turn my jumbled crap into nice minutes
17:04:04 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:04:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
17:04:17 [Zakim]
17:09:18 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, ChrisL, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
17:09:19 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:09:23 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.858.354.aaaa, glazou, plinss, ChrisL, +1.619.846.aabb, hober, jdaggett, dsinger, +1.215.286.aacc, kimberlyblessing, arronei, +1.408.636.aadd, Bert, smfr,
17:09:25 [Zakim]
... +1.650.618.aaff, howcome, dbaron, cathy, SteveZ, +1.415.920.aagg, fantasai
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