15:26:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #text
15:26:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/22-text-irc
15:29:20 <Judy> zakim, this will be WAI_PF(Text)
15:29:20 <Judy> meeting: HTML A11Y Text Alternatives Sub-Group Teleconference
15:29:20 <Judy> chair:	Judy_Brewer
15:29:20 <Zakim> ok, Judy, I see WAI_PF(Text)11:30AM already started
15:30:21 <Lynn_Holdsworth> Lynn_Holdsworth has joined #text
15:30:51 <Judy> agenda+ meta generator proposal <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming>
15:30:51 <Judy> agenda+ table summary <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Category:Table_Summary>
15:30:51 <Judy> agenda+ fig caption <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13651> also read minutes from A11Y TF <http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-html-a11y-minutes.html>
15:30:51 <Judy> agenda+ response to Jonas on longdesc <http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Jfoliot/longdescresponse>
15:30:51 <Zakim> + +44.207.391.aaaa
15:30:52 <Judy> agenda+ update from bug triage team on when any new text-alternative-related bugs might be incoming?
15:30:54 <Judy> agenda+ other business? 
15:30:56 <Judy> agenda+ confirm next meeting; identify next scribe; adjourn.
15:31:11 <janina> janina has joined #text
15:31:29 <Zakim> +??P0
15:31:52 <Zakim> +Judy
15:31:58 <JF> zakim, aaaa is Lynn_Holdsworth
15:31:58 <Zakim> +Lynn_Holdsworth; got it
15:31:59 <janina> zakim, ??P0 is Janina
15:31:59 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
15:32:01 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #text
15:32:21 <Judy> zakim, who's here?
15:32:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, ??P13, Lynn_Holdsworth, Janina, Judy
15:32:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see Joshue, janina, Lynn_Holdsworth, RRSAgent, Zakim, Judy, JF
15:32:34 <Joshue> zakim, ??P13 is Joshue
15:32:34 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
15:33:46 <Joshue> scribe: Joshue
15:34:43 <Joshue> TOPIC: Meta Generator
15:34:50 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:34:50 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:35:31 <Joshue> TOPIC: @Summary CP
15:35:32 <JF> scribe: JF
15:35:41 <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
15:35:41 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
15:35:53 <JF> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:35:53 <Zakim> agendum 1. "meta generator proposal <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming>" taken up [from Judy]
15:36:05 <JF> zakim, take up agendum 2
15:36:05 <Zakim> agendum 2. "table summary <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Category:Table_Summary>" taken up [from Judy]
15:36:17 <Joshue> Josh's CP http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Category:Table_Summary
15:36:36 <JF> JB: note that Laura C posted some additional info w.r.t. the @summary response
15:36:51 <JF> JO: not yet had a chance to review, but it is new data/info
15:37:13 <JF> knowing laura it is likely very good stuff, and worth adding, but need to read through it quickly
15:37:34 <JF> JB: can we take a quick skim and review Laura's additional info
15:37:45 <Judy> http://lists.w3.org//Public/public-html-a11y/2011Aug/0515.html
15:37:58 <JF> [taking a minute to read the email]
15:38:57 <Judy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Aug/0515.html
15:42:23 <Joshue> Lynn: We were looking for use cases but couldn't find any
15:42:32 <JF> LH: Both Leonie and I looked for use cases and were unable to come up with any
15:44:19 <Joshue> JS: Laura does point out that there are use case
15:44:26 <JF> JS: Just wish to say that I can appreciate how they may have not succeeded with that, but Laura notes that there are use-cases already in the proposal
15:44:27 <Joshue> JS: They need to be up front
15:45:04 <JF> JS: the chairs sometimes don't "get it", and having the use-cases up front provides the 'schooling' to understand the issue
15:45:08 <Joshue> +q
15:45:13 <Judy> q?
15:45:44 <JF> JO: there ae re use-cases. It is tricky and a bit difficult, we are reiterating the same thing
15:46:06 <JF> Laura's points are correct,, with out use-cases and justification are key
15:46:32 <JF> JO: Lief has provided excellent data on where support is missing
15:46:36 <Joshue> I'm going to add Leif to the wiki http://malform.no/testing/html5/table+aria.html
15:46:41 <JF> Q+
15:47:26 <JF> JO: happy to hand this to Laura to re-work, or if Laura could submit a second proposal...
15:47:39 <Joshue> -q
15:47:47 <JF> JB: if Joshue could take a second pass, it would retain some consistency
15:48:15 <Judy> action: Josh update the table summary proposal to incorporate Laura's input, and Leif's examples
15:48:19 <Joshue> JF: Laura points to Vlad blog, I would rather not include that link. It is negative towards ARIA
15:48:25 <Joshue> JOC: Noted
15:48:34 <Judy> agenda?
15:48:44 <Joshue> JF: The gist is that ARIA is really complicated etc, and it is the wrong message.
15:48:54 <Joshue> +q
15:49:00 <JF> ack JF
15:49:30 <JF> JF notes that the Vlad Alexander blog proposal is negative to ARIA and could lead to other issues down the road
15:49:54 <JF> JB: asks JO if he can take another pass at this over the next days
15:50:03 <JF> JO: can do so this week and will shoot for end of week
15:50:33 <JF> JO: will try and do justice with what Laura has submitted.
15:50:38 <Judy> [judy will put table summary on the agenda for next week again]
15:51:18 <JF> JB: if anyone else has any other input/feedback to this please speak up
15:51:43 <Judy> zakim, close this agendum
15:51:43 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Judy
15:51:49 <Judy> q?
15:52:02 <JF> ack J
15:52:27 <Judy> zakim, close this agendum
15:52:27 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
15:52:28 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:52:30 <Zakim> 1. meta generator proposal <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming> [from Judy]
15:52:37 <Joshue> Scribe: Josh
15:52:40 <Judy> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:52:40 <Zakim> agendum 1. "meta generator proposal <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming>" taken up [from Judy]
15:52:46 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:52:46 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:52:57 <Joshue> TOPIC: Meta Name Generator
15:53:04 <Joshue> JB: I want to see if anyone has comments
15:53:49 <Joshue> JB: Otherwise I think we will leave it for a week or so when SteveF is here.
15:54:02 <Joshue> JF: I have looked at it, it looks good.
15:54:50 <Judy> Judy: FYI, here are Laura's comments on the meta name generator proposal
15:54:52 <Judy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Aug/0516.html
15:54:56 <Joshue> JF: We don't say that we should be rejecting the current decision, but one has been made - we talk about problems about the descision but what do we suggest?
15:55:08 <Joshue> JF: Are we making a forceful enough case?
15:55:17 <Joshue> JB: Maybe restate it.
15:55:30 <Joshue> JF: The current CP doesn't make a strong case for reversing the desicion.
15:55:41 <Joshue> JB: So make a strong case then!
15:55:50 <Joshue> JF: I will contact Steve about this.
15:56:34 <Joshue> JB: Laura had sent some comments, they are on IRC (dropped in here)- she mentioned evidence that was ignored in the descision - see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Aug/0516.html
15:56:52 <Joshue> JB: She is suggesting adding to Mike Smiths validator
15:57:09 <Joshue> JS: The idea comes from the Birmingham F2F 
15:57:30 <Joshue> JS: It is a subtle strategic move, to make this work.
15:57:48 <Judy> and Steve's proposal, reminder link:
15:57:49 <Judy> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming
15:58:21 <Joshue> JB: Regarding the rest of Steves proposal - if there is anything that others spot, please do comment or drop in IRC etc so Steve can track it
15:58:38 <Joshue> +q
15:58:43 <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
15:58:43 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
15:58:44 <Judy> zakim, close item 1
15:58:44 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Judy
15:58:58 <Judy> zakim, re-open item 1
15:58:58 <Zakim> I don't understand 're-open item 1', Judy
15:59:08 <Judy> zakim, open item 1
15:59:08 <Zakim> agendum 1. "meta generator proposal <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming>" taken up [from Judy]
15:59:12 <JF> JO: agree that there is not really clear about what the CP was about.
15:59:47 <JF> JO: Needs to better define what the problem is - more clearly.
16:00:08 <JF> JS: it comes back to the use-cases - lay out the problem more clearly right from the start
16:00:32 <JF> JB: is the problem with the Title - is it clear enough?
16:01:26 <Joshue> JOC: +1 to Janina
16:01:37 <JF> JS: I would change the "does not" to "must not"
16:02:04 <Judy> judy... or "missing alt should not be conforming in the presence of meta name generator"
16:02:13 <Judy> q?
16:03:46 <Joshue> -q
16:06:30 <Judy> q+
16:09:02 <Judy> judy: it's useful to offer additional clarification of user needs
16:09:50 <Judy> ...some developers have not necessarily had the exposure to the diversity of users as they carry out different tasks and functions on the web
16:10:34 <Zakim> -Joshue
16:11:13 <Joshue> :-)
16:11:21 <Judy> janina: barrier reduction is complex.... some features are needed to ensure usability across people with different disabilities, different configurations, and different skill levels
16:11:22 <Zakim> +??P4
16:11:27 <Joshue> zakim, ??P4 is Joshue
16:11:27 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
16:12:05 <Zakim> -Joshue
16:12:49 <Joshue> Just to say I totally agree with Janina, but I remember the maxim 'A man changed against his will is of the same opinion still'
16:12:52 <Judy> zakim, close item one
16:12:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item one', Judy
16:13:04 <Zakim> +??P4
16:13:09 <JF> JB: proposing another agenda tweak
16:13:11 <Joshue> zakim, ??P4 is Joshue
16:13:11 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
16:13:43 <JF> JB: hope we arrive to a better shared understanding
16:14:32 <Judy> agenda?
16:14:45 <Judy> zakim, close item 1
16:14:52 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Judy
16:15:01 <JF> Q?
16:15:15 <Joshue> JB: I think we should talk about response to Jonas.
16:15:22 <Joshue> JB: Objections?
16:15:27 <JF> ack J
16:15:40 <Joshue> JS: Nope, but I have an idea before we write up.
16:16:06 <JF> s/write up/wrap up
16:16:19 <Joshue> JB: Lynn you asked me to send some example for figcaption etc, I haven't sent yet but I need to prepare. There are others looking at this.
16:16:23 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
16:16:23 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:16:35 <Joshue> JB: Anyone wanting to talk about figcaption?
16:16:47 <Judy> zakim, take up item 3
16:16:47 <Zakim> agendum 3. "fig caption <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13651> also read minutes from A11Y TF <http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-html-a11y-minutes.html>" taken up [from
16:16:50 <Zakim> ... Judy]
16:17:18 <Joshue> JB: Thanks to Lynn for offering to test examples, I will be preparing examples to circulate.
16:17:28 <Joshue> JB: Cyns and RichS are both involved.
16:17:40 <Joshue> JB: There will be a discussing in Sept 1st
16:17:46 <Judy> zakim, close item 3
16:17:46 <Zakim> agendum 3, fig caption <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13651> also read minutes from A11Y TF <http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-html-a11y-minutes.html>, closed
16:17:49 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:17:51 <Zakim> 1. meta generator proposal <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming> [from Judy]
16:17:55 <Joshue> s/discussing/discussion
16:17:56 <Judy> zakim, take up item 4
16:17:56 <Zakim> agendum 4. "response to Jonas on longdesc <http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Jfoliot/longdescresponse>" taken up [from Judy]
16:18:53 <Joshue> JB: JohnF's proposal came out this morning, thanks John.
16:19:07 <Judy> http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Jfoliot/longdescresponse
16:19:27 <Joshue> JF: It's a response rather than a proposal really.
16:19:49 <Joshue> <group reads>
16:24:42 <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
16:24:42 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
16:25:12 <Joshue> I will need more time to parse this doc outside this call..
16:25:29 <Joshue> +q
16:25:54 <Judy> q+
16:25:57 <janina> q+
16:26:20 <Judy> q- later
16:26:34 <Judy> ack josh
16:27:00 <JF> q+
16:30:40 <Judy> Josh: need to say that the non-discoverability issue is user agent responsibility
16:30:47 <janina> scribe: janina
16:30:55 <Zakim> -Joshue
16:32:18 <Judy> Janina: think we're getting there, with this response. No overall philosophical comments so far. Concern would be just to be more specific, for instance with "this proposal" when there are multiple
16:32:51 <Judy> ...and the description of the current behavior of describedby... that behavior is as is intended... as designed.
16:34:16 <Judy> Janina: Jonas is asking aria describedby to do something it wasn't designed to do, e.g. to subvert the intended designed of aria describedby
16:35:00 <JF> JF: Made a direct edit in the wiki, now reads "In contrast, the *designed* behavior of Screen Reading technology..."
16:35:40 <janina> judy: Will need to read more carefully, but have some rhetorical comments already ...
16:36:27 <janina> judy: Hmmm, looking ... there's a part where, as a reader, I get lost ...
16:36:52 <janina> judy: bottom of discoverability section, there's a Q that goes straight into ...
16:37:19 <janina> jf: There are three key points to be made, noted up top
16:37:49 <janina> jf: Discoverability is first
16:37:58 <janina> jf: Preservation of rich content
16:38:22 <janina> jf: Usability, the need to preserve support for existing UAs
16:38:41 <janina> jf: Have less support in UAs using ARIA at this time
16:39:52 <janina> judy: Wondering whether the rhetorical device of ending a section with a Q may be confusing, where it's not clear where one section/argument ends and another begins
16:40:56 <Zakim> -Judy
16:41:30 <Zakim> +Judy
16:43:35 <janina> judy: Hopefully a simple suggestion ... End each suection with a simple and clear wrap up
16:45:06 <janina> jf: Also agree at keeping the two proposals distincly clear, identifying Jonas' proposal vs TF proposal
16:46:24 <janina> jf: Can take a bit more time over the next few days
16:47:03 <janina> jf: I hear the feedback and have ideas on how to get this in
16:47:12 <janina> jf: Meanwhile, written feedback will be helpful
16:48:35 <Zakim> +Laura_Carlson
16:48:39 <Judy> zakim, close item 4
16:48:39 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Judy
16:49:15 <Laura_> Laura_ has joined #text
16:49:21 <JF> http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Jfoliot/longdescresponse#User_Interaction_-_Discoverability
16:49:39 <Judy> zakim, open item 4
16:49:39 <Zakim> agendum 4. "response to Jonas on longdesc <http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Jfoliot/longdescresponse>" taken up [from Judy]
16:49:50 <Judy> q?
16:49:55 <Judy> ack janina
16:49:56 <JF> qack JF
16:50:00 <JF> ack JF
16:50:06 <Judy> ack jf
16:50:14 <Judy> ack judy
16:51:59 <janina> laura: Noting that longdesc and table summary issues have much in common
16:52:42 <janina> judy: Noting there are two CP's on longdesc in addition to the TF consensud proposal from Laura
16:55:44 <Judy> zakim, close item 4
16:55:44 <Zakim> agendum 4, response to Jonas on longdesc <http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Jfoliot/longdescresponse>, closed
16:55:46 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:55:47 <Zakim> 1. meta generator proposal <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming> [from Judy]
16:55:59 <Judy> zakim, open item 5
16:55:59 <Zakim> agendum 5. "update from bug triage team on when any new text-alternative-related bugs might be incoming?" taken up [from Judy]
16:56:12 <Judy> zakim, close item 5
16:56:12 <Zakim> agendum 5, update from bug triage team on when any new text-alternative-related bugs might be incoming?, closed
16:56:14 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:56:15 <Zakim> 1. meta generator proposal <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming> [from Judy]
16:56:20 <Judy> zakim, open item 6
16:56:20 <Zakim> agendum 6. "other business?" taken up [from Judy]
16:56:31 <Judy> agenda?
16:56:46 <Judy> zakim, close item 1
16:56:46 <Zakim> agendum 1, meta generator proposal <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming>, closed
16:56:50 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:56:52 <Zakim> 6. other business? [from Judy]
16:57:03 <Judy> topic: HTML5 consensus process
16:57:56 <Judy> janina: a lot has changed since TF began
16:58:11 <Judy> ...need to update the consensus process
16:59:14 <Judy> ...proposes that TF can delegate to the TF sub-groups, so that the sub-group can propose a consensus to the TF
16:59:32 <Judy> ...and only gets surveyed if objections raised
17:00:31 <JF> JB: have a number of reservations about this. concerns around levels, process, the fact that this is a joint task-force
17:00:41 <janina> janina: proposing that subteams propose a consensus that the TF telecon agrees (or not) and so minutes. Objections raised against those minutes would go to a WBS
17:01:16 <Zakim> -Lynn_Holdsworth
17:01:30 <JF> JB: the fact that this is a joint TF makes this even more complicated. Reliance on sub-groups complicates things even more; question of timing and participation criteria
17:02:34 <janina> judy: consideration about time flow and participation
17:02:58 <JF> JB: perhaps need to work on this more. 
17:03:51 <JF> JS: the unstated notion here is that if you are not participating in the minutes or telecons then you are not participating 
17:04:04 <JF> LC: streamlining the policy is a good idea
17:04:22 <JF> but for those who cannot attend the telecons also need the opportunity to provide input'
17:04:35 <Judy> s/HTML5 consensus process/HTML5 A11Y TF consensus process/
17:05:16 <Judy> q+
17:05:46 <janina> jf: How much longer will the TF be working?
17:06:04 <janina> jf: Streamlining is a good idea, but participation is an important concern
17:06:36 <janina> judy: Support TF consensus streamlining, but want to be particularly careful about how this works vis a vis Subteams
17:07:26 <janina> judy: Expect the TF will stay operational until HTML5 goes TR
17:11:01 <janina> [discussing schedule for next few weeks]
17:11:35 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
17:11:37 <Zakim> -Judy
17:11:38 <Zakim> -Laura_Carlson
17:11:41 <Zakim> -Janina
17:11:42 <Zakim> WAI_PF(Text)11:30AM has ended
17:11:43 <Zakim> Attendees were John_Foliot, +44.207.391.aaaa, Judy, Lynn_Holdsworth, Janina, Joshue, Laura_Carlson
17:11:46 <janina> zakim, bye
17:11:46 <Zakim> Zakim has left #text
17:11:54 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
17:11:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/22-text-minutes.html janina
17:12:29 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
17:12:35 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
17:12:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/22-text-minutes.html janina
17:22:47 <Judy> Judy has joined #text
18:31:52 <janina> janina has left #text
19:33:57 <Judy> Judy has joined #text