20:01:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:01:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-svg-irc
20:01:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:01:40 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
20:01:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:01:42 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM scheduled to start now
20:01:43 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:01:43 <trackbot> Date: 18 August 2011
20:01:58 <cyril> zakim, code
20:01:58 <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', cyril
20:02:04 <cyril> zakim, what is the code
20:02:04 <Zakim> I don't understand 'what is the code', cyril
20:02:06 <heycam> Zakim, code?
20:02:06 <Zakim> the conference code is 7841 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), heycam
20:02:16 <cyril> thanks heycam
20:02:38 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has now started
20:02:44 <Zakim> +??P3
20:02:47 <heycam> Zakim, ??P3 is me
20:02:47 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
20:03:52 <Zakim> +??P8
20:04:15 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:04:28 <Zakim> + +1.317.506.aaaa
20:04:33 <cyril> zakim, aaaa is me
20:04:33 <Zakim> +cyril; got it
20:04:36 <ed> Zakim, ??P8 is me
20:04:36 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:04:42 <cyril> zakim, mute me
20:04:42 <Zakim> cyril should now be muted
20:05:14 <cyril> heycam, how do you generate the ToC on the group's wiki pages ?
20:05:35 <heycam> cyril, you just use headings like "= Level 1 heading =" or "== blah blah Level 2 heading =="
20:05:53 <cyril> thank you
20:06:02 <cyril> I'll edit the SVG 1.2 Tiny page
20:06:13 <cyril> it's easier to reference to a item by number
20:07:42 <cyril> yes
20:07:47 <cyril> zakim, unmute me
20:07:47 <Zakim> cyril should no longer be muted
20:08:25 <cyril> scribe: Cyril Concolato
20:08:30 <cyril> scribenick: cyril
20:08:36 <heycam> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0111.html
20:08:40 <heycam> Chair: Cameron
20:08:40 <cyril> zakim, who is there?
20:08:40 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, cyril.
20:08:55 <cyril> topic: meeting plan around SVG Open and TPAC
20:08:58 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
20:08:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see heycam, ed, Doug_Schepers, cyril
20:09:44 <cyril> CM: we decided not to have an SVG F2F WG meeting in SVG Open but Tav can only be there
20:09:51 <cyril> DS: having a day is reasonnable
20:10:00 <cyril> CM: it doesn't even have to be a whole day
20:10:08 <cyril> ... it depends on the topic
20:10:21 <cyril> ... it would be nice to have Tav because he's usually not able to travel
20:10:48 <cyril> ... we can have a meeting and review what was discussed later on in Santa Clara
20:10:54 <cyril> ED: what day ?
20:11:12 <cyril> CM: are you involved in the workshop day ? on the thursday ?
20:11:21 <cyril> zakim, mute me
20:11:21 <Zakim> cyril should now be muted
20:11:44 <cyril> ... Tav is not involved in the workshops
20:11:50 <cyril> ... I'm wondering about rooms
20:11:59 <cyril> ... it would be good to meet in the same place as the workshops
20:12:06 <cyril> zakim, unmute me
20:12:06 <Zakim> cyril should no longer be muted
20:13:33 <cyril> CC: could we have a bridge to call in ?
20:13:56 <cyril> CM: someone should contact the organizer to check room and bridge
20:14:03 <cyril> ED: the 4th day should be fine
20:14:29 <cyril> ACTION: heycam to contact Andreas Neumann about the room and bridge for a short 1 day F2F at SVG Open 2011
20:14:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3109 - Contact Andreas Neumann about the room and bridge for a short 1 day F2F at SVG Open 2011 [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-08-25].
20:15:05 <cyril> Topic: Feature request list for SVG 2
20:15:13 <cyril> CM: we have 3 lists on the wiki
20:15:20 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Planning_Page
20:16:20 <cyril> ... we should discuss how we decide on those lists
20:16:32 <cyril> ... especially before the F2F
20:16:44 <cyril> .. we should put comments on the wiki
20:17:18 <cyril> ... it would be good if people could put comments on each feature and put a yes/no
20:17:33 <cyril> ED: I have an action to go through minutes for resolutions
20:17:43 <cyril> ... I'm not sure about overlaps
20:18:10 <cyril> CC: we should have a single list
20:18:17 <cyril> DS: agree, we should also quantify
20:18:30 <cyril> ... putting a numerical value 1-5 
20:18:42 <cyril> ... one for priority
20:18:48 <cyril> ... one for complexity
20:18:53 <ed> ACTION-3095?
20:18:53 <trackbot> ACTION-3095 -- Erik Dahlström to go through the last few f2f minutes to find resolutions for SVG2 items, and add them to the wiki page. -- due 2011-08-05 -- OPEN
20:18:53 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/3095
20:18:56 <cyril> ... one for usefulness
20:19:24 <cyril> ... those are the 3 key factors
20:19:54 <cyril> ... obviously complexity is for viewers, but it might be also for authors but we can work that out in the text
20:20:14 <cyril> CM: should one of us go through all and put initial numbers
20:20:35 <cyril> DS: we can each contribute and then we discuss where we will not agree
20:21:06 <cyril> CM: would like to put those assessment done before you put your comments ?
20:21:11 <cyril> DS: not necessarily
20:21:48 <cyril> ... we should start today to put assessments
20:22:53 <cyril> CM: I think my 2 lists should be free of duplicates
20:23:28 <cyril> ... Issues are vague, coming from the tracker
20:23:36 <cyril> range from bug to feature
20:24:02 <cyril> ... I did not include bugs or problems with existing features
20:24:11 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input_From_Tracker
20:25:05 <cyril> ... it would be nice to have the issue in a single list
20:25:45 <cyril> CM: is it reasonnable to go through the list for next week ?
20:28:32 <cyril> ACTION: heycam to merge the two features/issues lists
20:28:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3110 - Merge the two features/issues lists [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-08-25].
20:28:53 <cyril> ACTION: cyril to merge the SVG Tiny 1.2 features into the results of ACTION-3110
20:28:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3111 - Merge the SVG Tiny 1.2 features into the results of ACTION-3110 [on Cyril Concolato - due 2011-08-25].
20:29:15 <cyril> CM: I'll put a template also to enable people to comment 
20:33:13 <cyril> CM: what about "Feedback from Jonathan Watt: https://wiki.mozilla.org/SVG:Language:Regrets"
20:33:46 <cyril> ED: I wonder how many are already covered by issues ...
20:34:08 <cyril> CM: at least one of those is already there (xlink)
20:35:09 <cyril> ACTION: heycam to go through jwatt's SVG regret page and add any feature from there to our requirements wiki page
20:35:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3112 - Go through jwatt's SVG regret page and add any feature from there to our requirements wiki page [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-08-25].
20:35:38 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback
20:36:35 <cyril> CM: it's probably hard to accept something without a concrete proposal
20:37:49 <cyril> CC: we shouldn't definitely reject features without concrete proposal
20:38:09 <cyril> ... we should give an idea if a proposal in a given area is acceptable to the group or not
20:41:32 <heycam> ScribeNick: heycam
20:41:35 <heycam> Scribe: Cameron
20:41:38 <heycam> Topic: radial gradients
20:41:47 <heycam> CC: this is related to an action erik has
20:41:49 <heycam> ACTION-3097?
20:41:49 <trackbot> ACTION-3097 -- Erik Dahlström to propose wording for the edge case where a radialGradient's focal point sits on the edge of the circle and the gradient repeats. the spec. should say that when the focal point is on the circle edge, with repeat, then the distance between the first and last stop for the repeating colors is 0 and the paint should generate a color that is the average of all the gradient stops. -- due 2011-08-05 -- OPEN
20:41:49 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/3097
20:42:04 <heycam> CC: In seattle we discussed content that has radial gradient noninteroperable behaviour
20:42:14 <heycam> ... I tried to check with the spec what the problem was
20:42:32 <heycam> ... if the spec was actually specifying something about the behaviour of the gradient outside of the circle, but there's no formula for how the gradient should be built
20:42:38 <heycam> ... I only found one in the canvas spec
20:43:17 <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0095.html
20:43:49 <heycam> ... so in the canvas spec it clearly defines how to build the gradient
20:44:08 <heycam> ... but it doesn't say what to do when the centre of the circle is outside the main circle
20:44:23 <heycam> ED: canvas doesn't have reflect and repeat
20:44:32 <heycam> CC: I think as a basis we could adopt this definition for the inside of the circle
20:44:37 <heycam> ... it would clarify how we build the gradient
20:44:46 <heycam> ... then we should define how we fill the outside the circle
20:44:50 <heycam> ... in the email I have two examples
20:44:55 <cyril> http://perso.telecom-paristech.fr/~concolat/SVG/radial_gradient_construction_animation.svg
20:45:15 <heycam> ... that shows a radialGradient with a repeat
20:45:30 <heycam> ... it shows that if you continue the formula defined in the canvas spec, you don't have a problem, the gradient is well defined
20:45:39 <cyril> http://perso.telecom-paristech.fr/~concolat/SVG/radial_gradient_construction_animation_edge_case.svg
20:45:48 <heycam> ... in this one the focal point is on the edge of the circle defining the gradient
20:46:05 <heycam> ... you can still follow the canvas spec formula, but it only fills half the plane
20:46:37 <heycam> ... as you animate the circle you'll never go beyond the normal to the focal point
20:46:52 <heycam> CM: so that'd be a straight vertical line
20:47:11 <krit> Firefox and WebKit don't support setting focal point on the edge
20:48:11 <heycam> ... for reflect we could just mirror the image around that line
20:50:05 <heycam> ... we could just define this not to work
20:50:21 <heycam> CC: or choose a solid colour to fill the rest of the plane with
20:50:31 <heycam> ED: I think IE does this
20:51:04 <heycam> CC: I'm just checking IE9, they don't use a solid colour
20:51:45 <heycam> CM: so I think it would be good for us to have a formula for computing gradient colours
20:51:47 <shepazu> s/colour/color/
20:51:53 <heycam> CC: the one in the canvas spec is the one that we want
20:52:44 <heycam> ED: the action I have is to make the half plane fill with a solid colour, average of all the stops in the gradient
20:52:50 <heycam> CC: I don't understand why though
20:52:58 <heycam> ... it's not even a colour that the author specified
20:53:09 <heycam> ... I could understand the colour at stop 0 or 1, but why the average?
20:53:17 <heycam> ED: probably because it's hard to pick any colour that matches
20:53:49 <heycam> CM: I think Tab was using average of stop colours in certain cases in css3 image values, but I don't remember which cases they were
20:54:09 <heycam> ED: if you have a line perpendicular to the radius of the circle, and keep very tiny steps between each straight line, you'll get something like an average
20:54:16 <heycam> ... tightly packed colours from the gradient
20:55:23 <heycam> CM: we could flip the well defined half of the image to the undefined part
20:55:27 <heycam> ED: it seems like new behaviour though
20:55:38 <heycam> CM: does it make sense as a "reflect" or "repeat"?
20:55:50 <heycam> ED: not so much repeat, reflect yes. it's different from the linear gradient though.
20:56:15 <heycam> CC: another point was talking about a new value, a smaller radius fr=""
20:56:26 <heycam> ... I think we can already do it by adding an initial stop colour
20:56:36 <heycam> ... same offset colour for 0 and fr/r
20:56:42 <heycam> ... then you get the same effect
20:56:57 <heycam> CM: unless you want to repeat/reflect into that smaller circle
20:57:14 <heycam> CC: the pdf spec has an fr
20:57:20 <cyril> Figure L.11
20:57:20 <heycam> ... they have some interesting examples
20:58:00 <cyril> http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/devnet/pdf/pdfs/PDF32000_2008.pdf
20:58:44 <heycam> CM: ok so they don't fill anything in the inner circle
21:01:22 <heycam> CC: let's see what erik proposes
21:01:35 <heycam> ... the adobe guys might have an opinion
21:01:45 <heycam> ED: the canvas one, does that support things outside the circle?
21:01:45 <heycam> CC: no
21:02:05 <heycam> ED: I will consider this when making the proposal
21:03:09 <heycam> Topic: propagation of events
21:03:10 <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0085.html
21:03:32 <heycam> CC: I don't know if you understood my problem
21:03:37 <heycam> ... I think this is applicable to 1.1
21:03:44 <heycam> ... when you have an SVG linked from another SVG, two separate documents
21:03:53 <heycam> ... this describes a single application
21:04:03 <heycam> ... you want some key events to be processed by the parent document, and some by the child document
21:04:21 <heycam> ... you want to design your documents so they don't know exactly what the other document is doing with the keys
21:04:36 <heycam> ... e.g. if the subdocument has the focus, and you press "a", if it's used by the subdocument it's fine, if not then it could go to the parent document
21:04:52 <heycam> ... a bit like mouse events -- when you click on the subdocument and there's nothing to be clicked on, transparent background, then the parent document will take that event
21:05:42 <heycam> CM: I think they're slightly different cases
21:06:11 <heycam> ... I'm thinking about iframes, events don't propagate across those
21:06:18 <heycam> CC: what do inner documents do with a key that's not been used?
21:07:11 <heycam> ... I'd like some text to describe that
21:08:21 <heycam> [discussion of animation vs image]
21:08:31 <heycam> ED: I would expect svg <image> to behave the same as html <img>
21:08:37 <heycam> CC: the question then is how should it work with an iframe
21:08:43 <heycam> ... I'll make some tests
21:10:19 <heycam> CM: if we wanted to allow propagation across windows, it's broader than just svg
21:10:27 <heycam> CC: yes it's more of platform thing than just svg
21:11:26 <heycam> CM: I think it is defined that it shouldn't propagate currently
21:11:29 <heycam> ... per dom events flow
21:12:07 <heycam> Topic: text tracks and webvtt
21:12:25 <heycam> CC: I was arguing that you could do the same thing in SVG, with synchronised graphics
21:12:52 <heycam> ... I wanted to check whether there was any interest in having synchronised graphics in this context
21:13:09 <heycam> ... I found a page from Charles on how to do subtitling in SVG in Opera
21:13:17 <heycam> s/Charles/Chaal/s
21:13:27 <cyril> http://dev.opera.com/forums/topic/370891
21:13:28 <heycam> s/Charles/Chaals/
21:13:52 <heycam> CC: This is a year and a half old example
21:14:19 <heycam> ... sylvia was saying that browsers will implement webvtt, and not svg as tracks
21:14:33 <heycam> ED: webvtt is probably a lot simpler to write
21:14:39 <heycam> CC: yes but it's more limited
21:15:02 <heycam> ... my guess, since it's how we implemented in gpac, is that once you have svg and video support, adding synchronised display of svg on top of video is not complex
21:15:33 <heycam> CM: does webvtt fire events?
21:15:43 <krit> it does
21:15:45 <heycam> CC: ontrackcuechange
21:16:22 <heycam> CM: so maybe you could have svg animation triggered off those
21:16:45 <heycam> CC: all you need is to use the same time base as the video
21:16:51 <heycam> ... don't even need the events
21:17:26 <heycam> ... see the example from chaals
21:17:46 <heycam> ... you can structure your svg file in a way that is frame based, it's really equivalent to a vtt file
21:19:01 <heycam> CC: one use case is having clickable shapes that come up
21:19:13 <heycam> ... with a link to a web page for an advertisement for example
21:19:38 <heycam> ... the media pipeline taskforce are only considering rectangular regions
21:20:18 <cyril> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-and-tv/2011Aug/0023.html
21:22:50 <heycam> CM: one question would be whether to use the time of the video to drive smil animations in an svg document, or just to use webvtt cue times to show/hide svg fragments
21:23:02 <cyril> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/video.html#handler-texttrackcue-onenter
21:23:22 <heycam> CC: that's the actual events for the cues
21:23:55 <heycam> DS: I agree with cyril that there should be non-rectangular regions
21:24:09 <heycam> CC: how about the timing?
21:24:14 <heycam> DS: no opinion
21:24:34 <heycam> CC: silvia was mentioning another option would be to embed svg content in the webvtt file, and retrieve the svg from the cue event, put that svg inside the html document by script
21:24:42 <heycam> ... that would work, but it's a bit complicated
21:27:43 <heycam> ... if there is any interest in this, we can discuss this
21:29:36 <Zakim> -ed
21:29:39 <Zakim> -heycam
21:29:41 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
21:29:41 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has ended
21:29:43 <Zakim> Attendees were heycam, Doug_Schepers, +1.317.506.aaaa, cyril, ed
21:32:34 <heycam> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:32:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-svg-minutes.html heycam
21:33:44 <heycam> trackbot, end telcon
21:33:44 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
21:33:44 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
21:33:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:33:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-svg-minutes.html trackbot
21:33:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
21:33:46 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-svg-actions.rdf :
21:33:46 <RRSAgent> ACTION: heycam to contact Andreas Neumann about the room and bridge for a short 1 day F2F at SVG Open 2011 [1]
21:33:46 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-svg-irc#T20-14-29
21:33:46 <RRSAgent> ACTION: heycam to merge the two features/issues lists [2]
21:33:46 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-svg-irc#T20-28-32
21:33:46 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cyril to merge the SVG Tiny 1.2 features into the results of ACTION-3110 [3]
21:33:46 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-svg-irc#T20-28-53
21:33:46 <RRSAgent> ACTION: heycam to go through jwatt's SVG regret page and add any feature from there to our requirements wiki page [4]
21:33:46 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-svg-irc#T20-35-09