14:51:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rd
14:51:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-rd-irc
14:51:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:51:11 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7394
14:51:11 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_RDWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:51:12 <trackbot> Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference
14:51:12 <trackbot> Date: 18 August 2011
14:55:16 <sharper> sharper has joined #rd
14:55:47 <sharper> trackbot, start meeting
14:55:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:55:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7394
14:55:52 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_RDWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:53 <trackbot> Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference
14:55:53 <trackbot> Date: 18 August 2011
14:56:00 <sharper> Chair: Harper_Simon
14:56:01 <sharper> Agenda+ Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments). Topic - http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Benchmarking_Web_Accessibility_Metrics
14:56:01 <sharper> Agenda+ Question Review - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-rd/2011Aug/0014.html
14:56:01 <sharper> Agenda+ Review of Draft First Call
14:56:01 <sharper> Agenda+ Any Other Business 
14:56:13 <sharper> zakim, save agenda
14:56:19 <Zakim> ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-rd-agenda.rdf
14:56:24 <sharper> zakim, take up item 1
14:56:27 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcome (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments)." taken up [from sharper]
14:57:03 <sharper> regrets+ O'Connor_Joshue
14:57:03 <sharper> regrets+ Brajnik_Giorgio
14:57:25 <sharper> present+ Harper_Simon
14:58:34 <yeliz> yeliz has joined #rd
14:58:49 <markel> markel has joined #rd
14:59:40 <Zakim> WAI_RDWG()11:00AM has now started
14:59:49 <Zakim> +??P30
14:59:58 <sharper> regrets+ Thiessen_Peter
14:59:58 <sharper> present+ Abou-Zahra_Shadi 
15:00:21 <Zakim> -??P30
15:00:21 <sharper> present+ Vigo_Markel
15:00:23 <Zakim> WAI_RDWG()11:00AM has ended
15:00:26 <Zakim> Attendees were 
15:00:53 <Zakim> WAI_RDWG()11:00AM has now started
15:01:03 <Zakim> +??P36
15:01:18 <sharper> present+ Yesilada_Yeliz
15:02:46 <Zakim> +??P55
15:02:52 <sharper> zakim, ??P55 is sharper
15:03:13 <sharper> zakim, ??P36 is markel
15:03:19 <vivienne> vivienne has joined #rd
15:03:35 <sharper> rrsagent, make logs public
15:03:35 <sharper> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:03:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-rd-minutes.html sharper
15:03:51 <Zakim> +sharper; got it
15:04:05 <Zakim> +??P0
15:04:05 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:09 <Zakim> +markel; got it
15:04:11 <yeliz> zakim, ??P0 is yeliz
15:04:33 <Zakim> +??P17
15:04:42 <yeliz> zakim, mute yeliz
15:05:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see markel, sharper, ??P0, ??P17
15:05:27 <sharper> zakim, ??P17 is really yeliz
15:05:32 <Zakim> +yeliz; got it
15:05:35 <yeliz> zakim, mute me
15:05:43 <yeliz> zakim, unmute yeliz
15:05:45 <sharper> zakim, ??P0 is shadi
15:05:50 <yeliz> zakim, mute me
15:06:21 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
15:06:52 <Zakim> +yeliz; got it
15:06:58 <Zakim> yeliz was already muted, yeliz
15:07:12 <Zakim> yeliz should no longer be muted
15:07:18 <Zakim> I already had ??P0 as yeliz, sharper
15:07:18 <sharper> present+ Conway_Vivienne
15:07:29 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
15:07:44 <sharper> zakim, ??P0 is really shadi
15:07:57 <sharper> zakim, who is making noise?
15:08:28 <Zakim> +Vivienne
15:08:48 <Zakim> +shadi; got it
15:08:54 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:08:56 <Zakim> sharper, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Vivienne (25%)
15:09:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see markel, sharper, shadi (muted), yeliz.a, Vivienne
15:09:21 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:09:23 <shadi> zakim, unmute me
15:09:25 <Zakim> Vivienne should now be muted
15:09:26 <Zakim> shadi should no longer be muted
15:09:38 <shadi> zakim, yeliz.a is really yeliz
15:09:40 <Zakim> +yeliz; got it
15:09:43 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:09:44 <Zakim> shadi should now be muted
15:09:45 <yeliz> zakim, mute me
15:09:46 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:09:46 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
15:09:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see markel, sharper, shadi (muted), yeliz (muted), Vivienne (muted)
15:10:18 <shadi> ack me
15:12:09 <vivienne> no problem
15:12:22 <vivienne> zakim, unmute me
15:12:22 <Zakim> Vivienne should no longer be muted
15:12:39 <Zakim> -Vivienne
15:12:51 <vivienne> phone just died, will have to re-join
15:13:08 <sharper> scribe: Conway_Vivienne
15:13:08 <sharper> ScribeNick: vivienne
15:13:31 <Zakim> +Vivienne
15:14:01 <vivienne> sh: look at link to Wiki and thanks to Markel for updating it
15:14:10 <yeliz> zakim, unmute yeliz
15:14:10 <Zakim> yeliz should no longer be muted
15:14:23 <vivienne> yeliz, I didn't get that
15:14:39 <vivienne> mv: some contribution from Peter as well
15:15:31 <vivienne> yeliz: should the other editors be in place before this discussion?
15:15:45 <vivienne> sh: are we ready for a draft first call?
15:15:54 <markel> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3976331/webinar%20call.html
15:16:11 <vivienne> sh: we can get their additions when they come back
15:16:17 <yeliz> zakim, mute yeliz
15:16:18 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
15:16:30 <vivienne> sh: agenda item 3
15:17:25 <vivienne> sa: not sure if it goes to the coordinator before announcement is sent to working group, especially this first one
15:17:42 <vivienne> sh: should we have a quick read through for first draft?
15:18:19 <markel> thanks
15:18:36 <vivienne> sa: comment on Wiki - looks really great.  Now its much more clear on how the test selection will work.  Definitions need clarification - conformance vs in use
15:19:24 <vivienne> mv: clarificaton - is perceived accessibility and accessibility in use the same thing?  yes - debate?
15:19:52 <vivienne> mv: research we could pursue is what people perceived about this question
15:20:15 <yeliz> Markel, excellent work as the first draft of the call and also the questions
15:20:47 <vivienne> sa: what conformance means in practice.  Does perceived accessibility relate to ? sorry Shadi missed this
15:21:24 <vivienne> sa: sometimes surveys look at whether people like wcag rather than accessibility
15:21:35 <vivienne> mv: maybe research should clarify the position
15:22:19 <shadi> accessibility in use -- as perceived by the user
15:22:21 <vivienne> mv: what is the relationshp between perceived accessibility and accessibility in use
15:22:46 <vivienne> sa: do we mean 2 different things or 1 thing
15:23:30 <vivienne> sa: in usability it includes satisfaction.  Maybe useless but still do all the functions.
15:24:07 <vivienne> mv: Shadi, I think you're right.  Accessibility in use would be measured in terms of efficiency.
15:24:32 <vivienne> sa: that's the only thing I stumbled over
15:24:48 <vivienne> sa: WAI coordination group need to be notified
15:25:21 <vivienne> sh: I was waiting for us to get a bit more sorted.  Once we got this to a bit more solid thing, I'm off to talk to them about it
15:25:38 <vivienne> sh: or I could send an email to the gorup
15:26:11 <vivienne> sa: wouldn't be bad to notify the group that we've selected a topic.  I don't know when the next meeting is.  Maybe by email.
15:26:50 <vivienne> sh:  are we doing to read this now?
15:27:06 <markel> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3976331/webinar%20call.html
15:27:20 <vivienne> mv: 2 things were to be done this week.  One was updating the wiki and the other one was putting the link in for the first draft for the call
15:27:45 <vivienne> mv: I'd like to have your opinion on what we can take out, or should we leave it as it is?
15:29:13 <vivienne> all: time taken to read wiki topic
15:29:32 <yeliz> yy: very minor typing mistake: source of the defition of white paper - "definition"
15:30:48 <markel> thanks!
15:31:01 <markel> sorry for the typos, there are some of them
15:31:30 <shadi> [goals/objectives]
15:31:36 <shadi> [participation]
15:32:02 <shadi> [contact information]
15:32:15 <yeliz> zakim, unmute me
15:32:15 <Zakim> yeliz should no longer be muted
15:32:19 <yeliz> q+
15:32:53 <vivienne> yeliz:  some of these questions could be quite long.  Would it be better to summarize?
15:33:24 <markel> I agree it's way too long
15:33:44 <yeliz> zakim, mute me
15:33:44 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
15:33:54 <yeliz> If it is too long, people won't read it
15:34:01 <yeliz> I think it's importance to give them a broad overview
15:34:10 <yeliz> for them to decide if they want to contribute or not
15:34:13 <vivienne> sh: we could have an abbreviated call that would be circulated and a longer one available explaining what we're expecting
15:34:44 <vivienne> sh: there are some minor english things I can go through with Markel
15:34:57 <yeliz> Why don't we use ACM style?
15:35:07 <yeliz> ACM has both word, and latex format
15:35:21 <markel> I would go for ACM too
15:35:43 <vivienne> sa: format has to be accessible
15:35:58 <vivienne> sh: create some form of html template so we get everything in the same format
15:36:30 <yeliz> zakim, unmute yeliz
15:36:30 <Zakim> yeliz should no longer be muted
15:36:41 <yeliz> q+
15:36:54 <vivienne> sh: the working group note would be concise discussion of the paper? sorry Simon, missed some of that
15:37:05 <vivienne> sa: some form of html template for use
15:37:21 <vivienne> sh: is there a style for appendices and working group notes?
15:38:23 <vivienne> sa: I could easily whip up a template, but the idea is we should just have it as html.  As long as it's properly structured it should be fine.  
15:38:48 <vivienne> sa: editors can just copy and paste it into working group notes
15:39:08 <vivienne> sa: just needs to be a structured html template
15:39:41 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/TR/HTTP-in-RDF/
15:39:46 <vivienne> sa: there aren't any particular requirements.  Only heading 1 at the very top of the document
15:40:20 <vivienne> sa: everythng else is h2 below that
15:40:45 <vivienne> sh: h2 is the title to fit with the appendices
15:41:04 <vivienne> sa: h1 contribution to the ...
15:41:24 <vivienne> sh: we'd say 'appendix' and then go to h3
15:41:40 <vivienne> sa: each contribution could have its own appendix
15:42:05 <vivienne> sh: so we'll have their title as h2 and subtitltes as h3 (did I get this right?)
15:42:07 <shadi> <h1>Contribution to RDWG Teleconference Seminar on ...</h1>
15:42:27 <shadi> <h2>[title of contribution]</h2>
15:42:50 <vivienne> sh: can we get the raw html and grab it?
15:43:16 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/2003/Editors/
15:43:29 <vivienne> sa: Markel and others see Editors home page link
15:44:01 <vivienne> sa: there is a generator for this content
15:44:21 <markel> :-)
15:45:21 <vivienne> sa: can't find it right now, I'll look it up and send it 
15:45:48 <vivienne> mv: look at guidelines and you shouldn't find surprises if you adhere to the working group notes
15:46:01 <vivienne> sa: i'll work with you on formal requirements
15:46:14 <vivienne> mv: should all submissions follow this format?
15:46:22 <vivienne> sa: there is no requirement for submissions
15:46:53 <vivienne> sa: we're trying to make your life easier by integrating it into the working group notes.  It will be better to hve the submittors put it in the format
15:47:07 <vivienne> mv: we're going to put the page limit at 2 pages
15:48:16 <vivienne> sa: we will be putting a disclaimer on the submitted contributions.  It will be obvious it's a contributed appendix.  Those kind of minor things will not be an issue, but its important to having heading structure, and accesibility
15:48:36 <vivienne> sa: it won't be too challenging if its a flat document of 2 pages
15:49:30 <vivienne> sh: we need to get this progressed in short time. Can Markel nd I get it to a more condensed format for the call and then a more verbose call with all the information on it.  We need to announce this pretty soon.
15:49:49 <vivienne> sh: by end of next week's discussion so we can solicit contributions by end of September
15:49:50 <yeliz> +1
15:50:13 <vivienne> yeliz: Sorry Yeliz you're breaking up
15:50:22 <yeliz> I just have a comment about the call
15:50:36 <yeliz> I think we need to also make it more attractive to researchers
15:50:51 <yeliz> how would this be published? and as an author
15:51:04 <yeliz> how can I cite this
15:51:14 <yeliz> may be I am looking at it as a publication
15:51:25 <yeliz> but would be good to tell people
15:51:28 <yeliz> how this will be published
15:51:33 <vivienne> sh: I agree and make sure its up front and central
15:51:47 <yeliz> how people will get the credit
15:51:50 <vivienne> sh: I will work with Markel and take this into account
15:51:52 <yeliz> if you se what I mean
15:52:03 <yeliz> that's quite important for researchers, I think
15:52:13 <vivienne> sh: agreed.
15:52:46 <yeliz> sounds good to me
15:52:47 <vivienne> sh: each of the accepted papers, after review, will be an appendix within the main w3C notes and referencable the same way as other proceedings
15:52:52 <yeliz> +1
15:53:12 <vivienne> like 'referencable'?
15:53:24 <yeliz> definitely, thanks markel
15:53:32 <yeliz> I also have another suggestion
15:53:38 <vivienne> sh: are we happy that these questions are expressive?
15:53:51 <yeliz> zakim, mute yeliz
15:53:51 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
15:53:53 <vivienne> I think it's yeliz
15:53:59 <yeliz> sorry about that
15:54:28 <yeliz> Wouldnt be also useful to say that the scope is not limited to just these questions
15:54:39 <vivienne> sa:  we have the main stuff on there, but have a bunch of editorial work.  The objective of the seminar is not clear
15:54:42 <yeliz> as long as people submit an abstract related to the topic
15:54:46 <yeliz> would be good, I think
15:54:49 <vivienne> sa: the outcome needs to be highlighted more
15:54:50 <yeliz> ??
15:55:00 <markel> http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/process.html#credits
15:55:08 <vivienne> sa: maybe better structuring, use of more headings
15:55:27 <vivienne> sh: agree.  Put together like a normal call for papers
15:55:44 <vivienne> sh: we'll format it in a nicer way like a normal call for papers
15:55:50 <yeliz> zakim, unmute me
15:55:50 <Zakim> yeliz should no longer be muted
15:56:23 <vivienne> sh: markel and I will work on this tomorrow together and put it to the group to see whether we agree.  
15:56:34 <vivienne> sh: how to get this out?
15:56:38 <vivienne> mv: make the survey public?
15:56:55 <vivienne> sh: draft not exposed to public intially
15:57:10 <vivienne> sa: preference clearly attribute it as 'draft - work in progress'
15:57:23 <vivienne> sa: have it in standard w3c format
15:57:39 <shadi> q+ to talk about timing
15:57:50 <shadi> ack y
15:58:12 <vivienne> yeliz: if people have research of findings in related topics, they can still submit it even though they are not addressing the questions exactly as listed.
15:58:17 <markel> +1 to Yeliz
15:58:34 <vivienne> sh: like the disclaimer for the w4a - and then its up to the scientific committee
15:58:49 <vivienne> sh: scientific committee will decide if it falls within the bounds
15:59:05 <yeliz> zakim, mute yeliz
15:59:09 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
15:59:11 <vivienne> yeliz: good to keep it open as there may be questions we have not thought about
15:59:13 <yeliz> Keep it as open as possible
15:59:20 <yeliz> I agree
15:59:22 <yeliz> +1
15:59:29 <yeliz> I agree with Shadi
15:59:35 <yeliz> so keeping it open is good
15:59:35 <vivienne> sa: otherwise we may not get as many contributions as we hope
15:59:57 <vivienne> sh: markel and I will work on this tomorrow
16:00:05 <vivienne> sh: shadi can you send us the format?
16:00:12 <shadi> ack me
16:00:13 <Zakim> shadi, you wanted to talk about timing
16:00:15 <yeliz> +1
16:00:42 <vivienne> sa: i'll send you also the template for the working group notes to use as a template for the submisions/contributions
16:01:09 <vivienne> sa: next week will be difficult due to absences
16:01:26 <vivienne> sa: maybe by the following week ie 30 August
16:01:57 <vivienne> sh: whenever we get the go-ahead to do the first call will be a deciding factor
16:02:10 <vivienne> sh: 1-10 September I'm on vacation
16:02:33 <vivienne> sa: make sure everyone is happy with the call and then work on the announcements
16:02:45 <yeliz> sounds great
16:03:03 <yeliz> byee
16:03:03 <vivienne> bye now
16:03:05 <markel> thanks VC
16:03:10 <Zakim> -yeliz
16:03:13 <Zakim> -sharper
16:03:15 <Zakim> -shadi
16:03:15 <vivienne> vivienne has left #rd
16:03:20 <markel> markel has left #rd
16:03:24 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
16:03:24 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:03:24 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been sharper, markel, Vivienne, shadi, yeliz
16:03:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:03:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-rd-minutes.html trackbot
16:03:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:03:26 <RRSAgent> I see no action items