IRC log of ua on 2011-08-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:54:03 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:54:03 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-ua-irc
16:54:05 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:54:05 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:54:07 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:54:07 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
16:54:08 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:54:08 [trackbot]
Date: 11 August 2011
16:54:18 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
16:54:40 [kford]
trackbot, start meeting
16:54:42 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:54:44 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:54:44 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
16:54:45 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:54:45 [trackbot]
Date: 11 August 2011
16:56:10 [AndroUser2]
zakim, set logs public
16:56:10 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'set logs public', AndroUser2
16:56:35 [AndroUser2]
rrsagent, set logs public
16:57:19 [kford]
hey there.
16:58:44 [kford]
Chair: Jim Allan, Kelly Ford
16:58:45 [kford]
Agenda+ survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/abc/
16:58:47 [kford]
Agenda+ Prep for 8/18 writing session
16:58:48 [kford]
Agenda+ review comments -
16:58:50 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JulSep/0010.html
16:58:52 [kford]
Agenda+ Items needing summary
16:58:54 [kford]
1.6 1.7 1.8 1.9 1.10 1.11
16:58:56 [kford]
2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4 2.5 2.6 2.7 2.8 2.9 2.10 2.11
16:58:58 [kford]
3.1 3.2 3.3 3.4
16:59:00 [kford]
4.2
16:59:01 [kford]
Agenda+ Continue work on IER items needing content
16:59:03 [kford]
1.9.6 7 10 11 - focus (examples only)
16:59:05 [kford]
1.10.3 examples only
16:59:06 [kford]
1.11.1. extended Link info
16:59:08 [kford]
2.5.1 discover keystrokes
16:59:09 [kford]
2.5.2 access relationships
16:59:11 [kford]
2.5.7 Configure Set of Important Elements
16:59:12 [kford]
2.7.1 - 7 preference settings
16:59:14 [kford]
2.11.3, 2.11.4 execution placeholder and toggle
16:59:16 [kford]
2.11.6 Stop/Pause/Resume Time-Based Media
16:59:18 [kford]
2.11.7 Navigate Time-Based Media
16:59:19 [kford]
2.11.8 Semantic Navigation of Time-Based Media
16:59:21 [kford]
2.11.9 Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media 2.11.10 Sizing Playback Viewport: (examples)
16:59:23 [kford]
2.11.11 Scale and position alternative media tracks (examples)
16:59:24 [kford]
2.11.12 Adjust Playback Contrast and Brightness (examples)
16:59:26 [kford]
4.2.1-3 Nested user agents (focus)
16:59:27 [kford]
Agenda+ Action Item Review
17:00:47 [kford]
Regrets: Jim
17:02:08 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:02:15 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:02:34 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
17:02:34 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
17:02:37 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:03:13 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:03:15 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
17:03:29 [sharper]
zakim, code?
17:03:29 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sharper
17:03:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.895.aaaa
17:03:50 [Greg]
zakim, aaaa is me
17:03:50 [Zakim]
+Greg; got it
17:03:55 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:03:58 [Zakim]
+??P13
17:04:06 [sharper]
zakim, ??P13 is sharper
17:04:06 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:06:53 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:06:53 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:06:55 [Zakim]
1. survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/abc/ [from kford]
17:06:57 [Zakim]
2. Prep for 8/18 writing session [from kford]
17:06:59 [Zakim]
3. review comments - [from kford]
17:07:01 [Zakim]
4. Items needing summary [from kford]
17:07:02 [Zakim]
5. Continue work on IER items needing content [from kford]
17:07:03 [Zakim]
6. Action Item Review [from kford]
17:08:27 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.325.aabb
17:09:28 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:10:31 [kford]
Group starts by looking at survey.
17:10:37 [kford]
Talking about 2.5.2.
17:11:37 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110718/
17:12:42 [jeanne]
1.11.1 is a duplicate of 2.5.2. 1.11.1 has IER.
17:13:03 [Greg]
1.11.1 is appropriate if it's meant to be about presenting info, 2.5.2 if it's meant to be about navigation.
17:13:27 [Greg]
1.11.1 Access Relationships:
17:13:29 [Greg]
The user can access explicitly-defined relationships based on the user's position in content (e.g. show form control's label, show label's form control, show a cell's table headers). (Level A) :
17:13:30 [Greg]
* Intent of Success Criterion 1.11.1:
17:13:32 [Greg]
Some users have difficulty perceiving, remembering, or understand the relationships between elements and their contexts. HTML controls and elements are sometimes grouped together to make up a composite control; certain elements relate to others in a recognizable manner, such as relationships with 'id' attributes and child elements. This is the case with Ajax widgets and with form...
17:13:33 [Greg]
...elements. By making sure the user can be informed about these relationships means that, say, visually disabled users can better understand these relationships even if the elements are not adjacent on the screen or the DOM.
17:13:35 [Greg]
* Examples of Success Criterion 1.11.1:
17:13:36 [Greg]
o John has low vision and uses a screen magnifier to access his Browser. When interacting with tables and spreadsheets John has to move the viewport of the magnifier to understand the row and column titles of the cell with which he is interacting. This takes additional time and effort and is therefore frustrating. John has just purchased a new Browser because it presents the row...
17:13:40 [Greg]
...and column titles when he hovers over a cell - this makes him much more productive at his accounting job.
17:13:42 [Greg]
* Related Resources for Success Criterion 1.11.1:
17:13:44 [Greg]
o WAI-ARIA
17:13:47 [Greg]
o UAAG 2.7.3 Location in Hierarchy
17:13:48 [Greg]
2.5.2 Access Relationships:
17:13:50 [Greg]
The user can access explicitly-defined relationships based on the user's position in content (e.g. show form control's label, show label's form control, show a cell's table headers). (Level A)
17:13:53 [Greg]
* Intent of Success Criterion 2.5.2 :
17:13:55 [Greg]
@@ Editors' Note: postponed for more information about the intent of this SC. Is it about providing flyover information? Or is it out of place and really belongs in Principle 2? @@
17:13:58 [Greg]
* Examples of Success Criterion 2.5.2 :
17:14:00 [Greg]
o To be written
17:14:03 [Greg]
* Related Resources for Success Criterion 2.5.2 :
17:14:04 [Greg]
o also see Success Criteria 4.7.x Location in Hierarchy
17:15:28 [sharper]
zakim, who is making noise?
17:15:38 [Zakim]
sharper, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jeanne (8%), +1.617.325.aabb (9%)
17:16:06 [Greg]
zakim, aabb is Kim
17:16:06 [Zakim]
+Kim; got it
17:18:49 [kford]
KF: Let's go with this in 1.11.1.
17:19:58 [Greg]
2.5 is about structural navigation, and 2.5.1 is about shortcut keys, so 2.5.1 doesn't belong there, it belongs in another guideline.
17:21:28 [kford]
Group continuing to talk about location of items.
17:21:44 [kford]
Discussion centering around what belongs in perceivable and operable.
17:22:10 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:22:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-ua-minutes.html kford
17:22:47 [Greg]
There are two ways we could divide up discoverable from operable: the first is that anything the user sees (etc.) is under perceivable, and only what they actually do (input) is under operable; the second is that everything related to reading (etc.) is under perceivable while everything relating to input (including everything you need for keyboard shortcuts, etc.) is under operable.
17:24:03 [Greg]
Jeanne feels this should go with the rest of the accesskeys-related SC, which would be under 2.3 Direct Navigation and Activation.
17:24:52 [Greg]
Kelly thinks 1.10.3 is a duplicate of 2.5.7.
17:25:08 [Greg]
2.5.7 Configure Set of Important Elements:
17:25:10 [Greg]
The user has the option to configure the set of important elements for structured navigation, including by element type (e.g. headers, list items, images). (Level AAA) @@ Editor's note: Review the definition of "important elements" @@
17:25:26 [Greg]
1.10.3 Configure Set of Important Elements:
17:25:27 [Greg]
The user can configure the set of important elements for the hierarchical view, including by element type (e.g. headers). (Level AAA)
17:26:04 [Greg]
Actually 2.5.7 is "for structured navigation" while 1.10.3 is "for hierarchical view".
17:26:51 [Greg]
1.10.3 Configure Elements for Hierarchical Views, and 2.5.7 Configure Elements for Structured Navigation?
17:27:28 [Greg]
I think that 1.10.3 Configure Set of Important Elements for Hierarchical Views is a little long.
17:27:44 [Greg]
So I suggested just taking out "set of important" from each.
17:28:23 [KimPatch]
configure important elements for structural navigation, configured important elements for hierarchical views
17:29:46 [kford]
Action: JS to update titles for 1.10.3 and 2.5.7 to remove set of important from title and add elements being configured. See text from KP.
17:29:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-603 - Update titles for 1.10.3 and 2.5.7 to remove set of important from title and add elements being configured. See text from KP. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-08-18].
17:35:11 [sharper]
zakim, who is making noise?
17:35:22 [Zakim]
sharper, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: kford (29%), Greg (5%), sharper (4%), Kim (5%)
17:36:26 [kford]
zakim, who is making noise?
17:36:31 [sharper]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JulSep/0026.html
17:36:37 [Zakim]
kford, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: sharper (90%), Kim (18%)
17:36:52 [sharper]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JulSep/0026.html
17:39:24 [jeanne]
Here is a proposal that Simon did in May http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0088.html
17:41:34 [kford]
group now looking at duplicate entries.
17:43:09 [kford]
GL goes through a list of dupes. We think we have addressed all he raised.
17:43:39 [Greg]
Went through table generated from June 9 draft and found total duplicate of 1.11.2 = 2.5.2, duplicate title for 2.5.7 = 1.10.3, and duplicates of 1.9.6 and 1.9.7 left over when they were moved and which we've already taken care of.
17:44:54 [Greg]
1.11.2 and 2.5.2 was Access Relationships, 2.5.7 and 1.10.3 was Configure Set of Important Elements, and 1.9.6 and 1.9.7 were Retrieve Focus and Return Focus respectively.
17:49:03 [kford]
SH: I think we have had discussions around this. The thinking is that by complying with 4.1 an asssitive technology could do the end result of 2.5.2 and show relationships if it so chose.
17:50:58 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
17:51:20 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:55:40 [Greg]
I say we delete 2.5.2 (Access Relationships) since it's a duplicate of 1.11.1, but take an action item to decide whether we need to put equivalents of 1.11.1 rewritten to address navigation by relationships and and exposing relationships to assistive technology in 2.5 and 4.1 respectively.
17:58:02 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to delete 2.5.2 to renumber 2.5 appropriately.
17:58:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-604 - Delete 2.5.2 to renumber 2.5 appropriately. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-08-18].
17:59:09 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:59:09 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:59:10 [Zakim]
1. survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/abc/ [from kford]
17:59:13 [Zakim]
2. Prep for 8/18 writing session [from kford]
17:59:15 [Zakim]
3. review comments - [from kford]
17:59:17 [Zakim]
4. Items needing summary [from kford]
17:59:19 [Zakim]
5. Continue work on IER items needing content [from kford]
17:59:21 [Zakim]
6. Action Item Review [from kford]
17:59:28 [sharper]
Action: sharper to look at consolidation of 4.1 and 1.11 etc
17:59:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-605 - Look at consolidation of 4.1 and 1.11 etc [on Simon Harper - due 2011-08-18].
18:05:43 [Greg]
In answer to Simon's comment, I used the term "Hierarchical View" instead of "Outline View" because the latter would make readers think of the specific implementations in Microsoft Word (and perhaps other products), and the actual range of possible implementations is much broader (e.g. HeadingsMap add-on for Firefox, etc.)
18:07:03 [kford]
SH: We need to consolidate the language we use around these navigations and configurations.
18:08:45 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:08:45 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
18:08:47 [Zakim]
1. survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/abc/ [from kford]
18:08:49 [Zakim]
2. Prep for 8/18 writing session [from kford]
18:08:51 [Zakim]
3. review comments - [from kford]
18:08:52 [Zakim]
4. Items needing summary [from kford]
18:08:53 [Zakim]
5. Continue work on IER items needing content [from kford]
18:08:55 [Greg]
I see 2.7 as the general mechanisms for how user preference settings should be configurable, storable, etc., but not about what settings should be provided; the latter would be scatted about the document.
18:08:57 [Zakim]
6. Action Item Review [from kford]
18:09:16 [kford]
zakim, close item 1
18:09:16 [Zakim]
agendum 1, survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/abc/, closed
18:09:19 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:09:23 [Zakim]
2. Prep for 8/18 writing session [from kford]
18:09:27 [kford]
zakim, take up item 2
18:09:27 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Prep for 8/18 writing session" taken up [from kford]
18:18:26 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:18:26 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
18:18:27 [Zakim]
2. Prep for 8/18 writing session [from kford]
18:18:28 [Zakim]
3. review comments - [from kford]
18:18:30 [Zakim]
4. Items needing summary [from kford]
18:18:32 [Zakim]
5. Continue work on IER items needing content [from kford]
18:18:34 [Zakim]
6. Action Item Review [from kford]
18:19:38 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:19:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-ua-minutes.html kford
18:19:41 [Zakim]
-sharper
18:19:45 [Zakim]
-Greg
18:27:04 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:50:47 [Zakim]
-kford
18:50:56 [Zakim]
-Kim
18:50:57 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:50:59 [Zakim]
Attendees were kford, +1.425.895.aaaa, Greg, Jeanne, sharper, +1.617.325.aabb, Kim
18:51:31 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
18:51:44 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:51:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-ua-minutes.html kford
18:53:08 [kford]
regrets+Mark
18:53:15 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:53:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-ua-minutes.html kford
19:02:35 [kford]
zakim, please part
19:02:35 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:02:58 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:02:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-ua-minutes.html kford
19:11:27 [kford]
rrsagent, please part
19:11:27 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-ua-actions.rdf :
19:11:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to update titles for 1.10.3 and 2.5.7 to remove set of important from title and add elements being configured. See text from KP. [1]
19:11:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-ua-irc#T17-29-46
19:11:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to delete 2.5.2 to renumber 2.5 appropriately. [2]
19:11:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-ua-irc#T17-58-02
19:11:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: sharper to look at consolidation of 4.1 and 1.11 etc [3]
19:11:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-ua-irc#T17-59-28