13:48:44 RRSAgent has joined #lld 13:48:44 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-irc 13:48:54 zakim, this will be LLD 13:48:54 ok, emma; I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes 13:49:04 Meetin : LLd XG 13:49:11 Meeting: LLD XG 13:49:20 Chair: Emma 13:49:49 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Aug/0026.html 13:50:09 Previous: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html 13:50:26 Regrets: Peter, Jodi, Monica, Uldis 13:50:38 rrsagent, please make record public 13:50:49 rrsagent, please draft minutes 13:50:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-minutes.html emma 13:53:48 Previous: 2011-08-04 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html 13:54:09 rrsagent, please draft minutes 13:54:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-minutes.html emma 13:55:49 INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started 13:55:56 + +1.202.445.aaaa 13:56:04 - +1.202.445.aaaa 13:56:06 INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has ended 13:56:06 Attendees were +1.202.445.aaaa 13:56:39 antoine has joined #lld 13:57:24 INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started 13:57:29 INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has ended 13:57:30 Attendees were 13:57:42 INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started 13:57:45 +??P9 13:57:46 kai has joined #lld 13:57:53 zakim, ??P9 is me 13:57:54 +antoine; got it 13:58:27 rrsagent, please draft minutes 13:58:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-minutes.html antoine 13:58:48 +??P8 13:58:49 zakim, who is here? 13:58:50 On the phone I see antoine, ??P8 13:59:00 zakim, ??P8 is kai 13:59:00 +kai; got it 13:59:22 + +1.423.463.aaaa 13:59:32 kcoyle has joined #lld 13:59:34 Zakim: aaaa is me 13:59:35 ' 13:59:45 er 13:59:51 zakim, aaaa is me 13:59:51 +rsinger; got it 13:59:56 + +33.1.44.78.aabb 14:00:04 zakim, aabb is emma 14:00:04 +emma; got it 14:00:44 +??P15 14:01:07 zakim, ??P15 is kcoyle 14:01:07 +kcoyle; got it 14:01:12 + +1.330.289.aacc 14:01:22 zakim, aacc is marcia 14:01:22 +marcia; got it 14:01:38 + +1.202.445.aadd 14:01:48 +Tom_Baker (was +1.202.445.aadd) 14:02:42 zakim, who's here ? 14:02:42 On the phone I see antoine, kai, rsinger, emma, kcoyle, marcia, Tom_Baker (muted) 14:02:52 marcia has joined #lld 14:02:59 + +1.614.764.aaee 14:03:00 rayd has joined #lld 14:03:10 zakim, aaee is jeff_ 14:03:10 +jeff_; got it 14:03:25 zakim, mute me 14:03:25 jeff_ should now be muted 14:03:50 zakim, mute me 14:03:50 marcia should now be muted 14:04:43 argh 14:04:44 ok 14:05:18 alright :) 14:05:56 Scribe: Ross 14:06:03 Scribenick: rsinger 14:06:12 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:06:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-minutes.html antoine 14:06:45 emma_ has joined #lld 14:07:15 zakim, emma is really emma_ 14:07:15 +emma_; got it 14:07:21 TOPIC: Minutes of previous telecons 14:07:21 PROPOSED: To accept 14:07:21 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html 14:07:22 er 14:07:28 TOPIC: Admin 14:07:38 Minutes of previous telecons PROPOSED: To accept http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html 14:08:04 RESOLVED: To accept http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html 14:08:25 TOPIC: COMMENTS RECEIVED 14:08:36 +[LC] 14:08:45 -- Current, up-to-date compilation of all sections (note that sections 14:08:45 must be edited separately) 14:08:45 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReportWithTransclusion 14:08:46 +[LC.a] 14:08:57 zakim, LC is edsu 14:08:57 +edsu; got it 14:08:58 ACTION: Jodi to make an alternative transclusion [recorded in 14:08:58 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html#action04] 14:09:05 zakim, LC.a is rayd 14:09:05 +rayd; got it 14:09:36 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReportWithTransclusion-Multiple_Reports 14:09:50 kefo has joined #lld 14:09:56 +[LC] 14:09:57 zakim, LC is me 14:09:57 +kefo; got it 14:10:06 zakim, mute me please 14:10:06 kefo should now be muted 14:10:26 antoine: in general it seems alright 14:10:42 ... could use input from others, but it's the right direction 14:11:02 emma: but it does include the new text from the vocabs section 14:12:17 antoine: prepared a shortened introduction that could replace the longer one 14:12:39 ... we can remove all of the sections of relevant datasets / put them on the end? 14:12:50 ... I know this is not all completely clear :) 14:12:53 q+ 14:13:05 ack kc 14:13:37 kcoyle: the section of relevant technologies - none of those have introductions; they're very concise 14:13:48 jneubert has joined #lld 14:13:50 ... I don't believe it would fit in that area, stylistically 14:14:34 My shortened intro: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Vocabularies_Datasets_Section2 14:14:40 ... they are all very short statements, if there's more to be said, it should be an area with more detail 14:14:49 + +49.4.aaff 14:15:00 antoine: karen has a point 14:15:06 zakim, aaff is jneubert 14:15:06 +jneubert; got it 14:15:26 emma: i would prefer it as an appendix, opinions? 14:15:32 channel: silence 14:16:17 antoine: so do we prefer the longer or shorter introductory text? 14:16:30 kcoyle: this goes with the appendix on datasets and vocabularies? 14:16:41 antoine: i can produce three different version 14:17:11 kcoyle: I don't know that that's necessary, if it's in the appendix - we aren't limiting appendices' lengths 14:17:45 emma: I prefer the shorter version 14:18:57 kcoyle: the benefits we're keeping short, so people will read them -- it makes sense to let the appendices be longer, if people want to read them 14:19:10 --done 14:19:29 ACTION: Jodi to make an alternative transclusion [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html#action04] 14:19:31 --DONE 14:19:39 -- Maintained by volunteers responsible for acknowledging and 14:19:40 answering posted reviews 14:19:40 2011-07-23 to 2001-07-30: Daniel 14:19:40 2011-07-30 to 2001-08-11: Emma 14:19:40 2011-08-11 to 2001-08-18: ? 14:20:18 ACTION: Emma to keep track of comments through AUG. 11 [recorded in 14:20:19 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html#action03] 14:20:33 --DONE 14:22:00 did or did not? 14:22:17 emma: I did not include the vendors' comments in the tracking process 14:22:35 the action as written is :) 14:23:00 me zakim, mute me 14:23:16 ACTION: Editors of each section should watch for substantial comments to their section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/06/30-lld-minutes.html#action06] 14:23:18 --DONE 14:23:40 TOPIC: FINAL DELIVERABLES 14:23:49 EXECUTIVE SUMMARY (tbd) 14:23:49 -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/ExecutiveSummary 14:24:01 emma: this was due last week 14:24:31 kcoyle: I sent out an outline last week, with no response. Last night I wrote up a crude draft and it's in the transclusion, but still needs work 14:24:34 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReportWithTransclusion#Executive_Summary 14:24:41 ... but if there's something there, other people might edit it 14:25:02 emma: There's nothing in the version 14:25:41 Newest version:http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReportWithTransclusion-Multiple_Reports#Executive_Summary 14:26:20 emma: this is the newest version, but Jodi said we should replace the old version 14:26:34 kcoyle: adding the Executive Summary into it now 14:26:42 ... typing.... 14:26:59 ... now in both versions 14:27:08 .... but not very good 14:27:26 emma: This should get review and comments on the list 14:27:44 kcoyle: we need to determine how much detail to put into it 14:28:04 ... And there should be another section, per TomB, about methodology 14:28:24 emma: Karen, could send a call on the list to solicit comments? 14:28:27 kcoyle: sure 14:28:41 ACTION: Karen, Tom, Michael, and Gordon to write the executive summary due in two weeks. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/07/21-lld-minutes.html#action05] 14:28:44 --CONTINUES 14:28:45 q+ 14:28:54 ack ant 14:29:01 "LIBRARY LINKED DATA": SCOPE OF THIS REPORT (Karen, Peter, Tom, Gordon, Jodi) 14:29:02 -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Benefits#.22Library_Linked_Data.22:_Scope_of_this_report 14:29:27 antoine: back to the exec summary, I see that the benefits are under the executive summary 14:30:25 ack Tom 14:30:54 TomB: do we have a clear action on the methodology section? 14:30:57 emma: No. 14:31:09 kcoyle: the benefits are not in the executive summary 14:31:20 TomB: I would like to propose we have a paragraph or two about this and you can give me an action 14:31:34 ACTION: TomB to write the methodology paragraph 14:31:58 emma: Any other comments? 14:32:13 emma: we can discuss the scope of the report 14:32:34 ... We had a definition of "open data" which is now in discussion on the list 14:32:52 ... does anybody have any comments? Otherwise, discuss on the list. 14:33:17 ... no comment, moving on to the Benefits section 14:33:21 I consider it important, but on the list is ok 14:33:58 ... Benefits editors met on Tuesday: Ed, Emma and Tom (Ross absent) 14:34:06 ... We didn't change the structure of the section 14:34:14 ... some rewriting, parts were unclear 14:34:28 ... Added a few items 14:34:43 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/index.php?title=Benefits&diff=5697&oldid=5271 14:34:46 uldis has joined #lld 14:35:02 emma: that is a diff between late July and today 14:35:24 ... most are editorial, removed Stone Soup 14:35:26 :( 14:35:41 :( too 14:35:41 +??P0 14:35:46 zakim, ??P0 is me 14:35:46 +uldis; got it 14:35:57 ... benefits to researchers, benefits to organization, bottom up/top down 14:36:14 ... benefits to librarians: data semantics, data structures 14:36:29 ... benefits to developers and vendors: small addition 14:36:30 q+ 14:36:59 ack kc 14:38:26 kcoyle: there is a point where the part about semantics, "By making a clean distinction ... linked data will be better". But it seems... it's making "use of" the semantics, that sentence doesn't explain it - it makes the distinction. 14:38:36 ... if I think of something better, I'll make a change 14:38:50 emma: better standards, not better data 14:39:13 kcoyle: it makes me not understand that you want them both 14:39:14 how about "better vocabularies" rather than "better standards"? 14:39:28 ack Tom 14:40:16 TomB: This is a point that Gordon was making: by making the distinction between semantic syntax ; it makes the standards independent of the encoding or serialization 14:40:48 ... it's not intended to imply that it's not important, how to make standards that are more durable by making them independent of any data structure 14:40:57 kcoyle: that's not clear in the present wording 14:41:14 TomB: if that's not coming out, please add some ideas 14:42:13 ACTION: Editors of BENEFITS to meet and work on the comments. 14:42:13 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html#action07] 14:42:15 --DONE 14:42:51 ACTION: Karen will track items from former "issues" and "recommendations" that belong to benefits [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html#action08] 14:42:54 --DONE 14:43:04 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:43:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-minutes.html antoine 14:43:26 AVAILABLE VOCABULARIES AND DATASETS (Antoine, Jeff, Marcia, William) -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Vocabularies_Datasets_Section 14:43:37 emma: Any comments? 14:43:44 no! 14:44:03 ... This is a set item, we can move on 14:44:17 RELEVANT TECHNOLOGIES (Jeff) -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Relevant_Technologies 14:44:26 emma: This is now an appendix at the end 14:45:09 we can drop the first action 14:45:13 emma: any comments on the two actions in the section? 14:45:29 ACTION: everybody to scrutinize the relevant technologies to solve the issue of mixing different levels [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/07/21-lld-minutes.html#action09] 14:45:32 --DROPPED 14:46:05 emma: Jeff any update on your other action? 14:46:10 zakim, who's here ? 14:46:10 On the phone I see antoine, kai, rsinger, emma_, kcoyle, marcia (muted), Tom_Baker (muted), jeff_ (muted), edsu, rayd, kefo (muted), jneubert, uldis 14:46:19 ack jeff 14:46:28 q+ social uses cluster 14:46:43 ... no news (is good news) 14:46:54 s/US/UC 14:47:13 ACTION: Jeff to integrate more refined view of non-resolvable URIs and linking. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/07/21-lld-minutes.html#action08] 14:47:15 --CONTINUES 14:47:36 ack ul 14:47:45 emma: we can use the rest of the time to discuss the Social UC 14:47:53 ... and push the other topics to next week 14:48:16 uldis: we have completed the social use case cluster , the use cases are completed 14:48:21 ... and there are summaries 14:48:26 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Cluster_Social_Uses#Scenarios_.28Case_Studies.29 14:48:31 ... we are looking forward to feedback and suggestions 14:49:02 emma: We need to include the new stuff in the use case report, I don't think it's been done 14:49:14 it's done, as a draft 14:49:14 uldis: Yes, I think it was there already, but it needs to be verified 14:49:31 ... need to contact Daniel to add summary 14:49:38 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCaseReport#Social_and_new_uses 14:50:07 emma: is this overlapping with your new pages? 14:50:26 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCaseReport#Social_and_new_uses_2 14:50:34 uldis: that is the extracted summaries, possibly more of a draft form. The use cases are finished, but the summaries are more draft-ish 14:50:51 ... Not a full list of use cases 14:51:00 ... there are 4 that still need to be summarized 14:51:21 emma: would you add these 4 to the use case report? Or would you prefer Daniel to do it? 14:51:38 I think Uldis and Jodi could take care of it. 14:51:48 uldis: it would be good to add, if Daniel could do it, it would a fresh view 14:51:57 s/would/would be/ 14:51:58 ...I'm not sure he's really around the coming days... 14:53:08 ACTION: Uldis, Jodi and Daniel to include the Social Use cases to the final report 14:53:15 antoine: you're spared :) 14:53:22 :-) 14:53:33 THE SCRIBE HAS SAVED YOU (cheques welcome) 14:53:48 I'll remember this :-D 14:54:30 here are Social and Emergent Use Cases themselves: 14:54:31 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Cluster_Social_Uses#Scenarios_.28Case_Studies.29 14:55:00 emma: we only have 5 minutes, so I'm not sure it's worth discussing the challenges and barriers section 14:55:07 q+ 14:55:20 ack ant 14:55:25 there were also changes to the Social Uses Cluster page 14:55:45 mainly in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Cluster_Social_Uses#Problems_and_Limitations + relevant technologies / vocabs 14:56:08 antoine: There are some comments that have not been addressed, but that will not make it shorter 14:56:36 Linking across datasets has begun but requires further effort and coordination 14:56:37 kcoyle: the linking across datasets is long and detailed and does fit into the other sections 14:56:56 ... the details should be moved to the appendix 14:57:10 antoine: that may actually unbalance the appendix 14:57:30 kcoyle: there should be one, short explanatory paragraph for each point 14:57:55 antoine: data availability won't change? or won't change much? 14:58:00 ack Tom 14:58:15 s/data availability/paragraphs around data availability/ 14:58:30 TomB: I wanted to add that the data availability points do belong in that section, but they don't fit with the rest of the section 14:58:47 ... it's not that i think it's too long, but it belongs there in a shorter form 14:59:02 ... moving it to the appendix would solve the problem 14:59:30 emma: any other topics for today? 14:59:37 ... meeting adjourned. 14:59:37 -rayd 14:59:42 thanks and bye 14:59:42 thanks 14:59:44 -Tom_Baker 14:59:45 zakim, please list attendees 14:59:45 -kcoyle 14:59:46 bye 14:59:47 As of this point the attendees have been antoine, kai, +1.423.463.aaaa, rsinger, +33.1.44.78.aabb, kcoyle, +1.330.289.aacc, marcia, Tom_Baker, +1.614.764.aaee, jeff_, emma_, edsu, 14:59:49 uldis has left #lld 14:59:50 ... rayd, kefo, +49.4.aaff, jneubert, uldis 14:59:50 -edsu 14:59:50 -kai 14:59:52 -uldis 14:59:53 -kefo 14:59:55 -marcia 15:00:01 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:00:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-minutes.html antoine 15:00:07 I wasn't on the attendee list? 15:00:10 -jneubert 15:00:18 we can add you, kevin 15:00:36 you're there now! 15:00:51 thanks 15:02:03 bye! 15:02:26 -rsinger 15:02:29 -antoine 15:02:38 -emma_ 15:02:41 zakim, bye 15:02:49 jeff_ has left #lld 15:02:55 rrsagent, bye 15:02:55 I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-actions.rdf : 15:02:55 ACTION: Jodi to make an alternative transclusion [recorded in [1] 15:02:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-irc#T14-08-58 15:02:55 ACTION: Jodi to make an alternative transclusion [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html#action04] [2] 15:02:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-irc#T14-19-29 15:02:55 ACTION: Emma to keep track of comments through AUG. 11 [recorded in [3] 15:02:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-irc#T14-20-18 15:02:55 ACTION: Editors of each section should watch for substantial comments to their section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/06/30-lld-minutes.html#action06] [4] 15:02:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-irc#T14-23-16 15:02:55 ACTION: Karen, Tom, Michael, and Gordon to write the executive summary due in two weeks. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/07/21-lld-minutes.html#action05] [5] 15:02:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-irc#T14-28-41 15:02:55 ACTION: TomB to write the methodology paragraph [6] 15:02:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-irc#T14-31-34 15:02:55 ACTION: Editors of BENEFITS to meet and work on the comments. [7] 15:02:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-irc#T14-42-13 15:02:55 ACTION: Karen will track items from former "issues" and "recommendations" that belong to benefits [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html#action08] [8] 15:02:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-irc#T14-42-51 15:02:55 ACTION: everybody to scrutinize the relevant technologies to solve the issue of mixing different levels [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/07/21-lld-minutes.html#action09] [9] 15:02:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-irc#T14-45-29 15:02:55 ACTION: Jeff to integrate more refined view of non-resolvable URIs and linking. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/07/21-lld-minutes.html#action08] [10] 15:02:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-irc#T14-47-13 15:02:55 ACTION: Uldis, Jodi and Daniel to include the Social Use cases to the final report [11] 15:02:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-lld-irc#T14-53-08 15:03:00 leaving. As of this point the attendees were antoine, kai, +1.423.463.aaaa, rsinger, +33.1.44.78.aabb, kcoyle, +1.330.289.aacc, marcia, Tom_Baker, +1.614.764.aaee, jeff_, emma_, 15:03:03 Zakim has left #lld