14:58:11 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 14:58:11 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-irc 14:58:15 Zakim has joined #i18n 14:58:22 trackbot, prepare teleconference 14:58:24 matial has joined #i18n 14:58:25 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:58:27 Zakim, this will be 4186 14:58:27 ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes 14:58:28 Meeting: Internationalization Core Working Group Teleconference 14:58:28 Date: 10 August 2011 14:58:39 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 14:58:47 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:58:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 14:59:00 Regrets: Felix 14:59:12 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 14:59:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:59:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 14:59:39 Chair: Addison Phillips 14:59:44 Scribe: Addison Phillips 14:59:51 ScribeNick: aphillip 14:59:57 I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started 15:00:01 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2011Aug/0001.html 15:00:04 +??P4 15:00:08 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:00:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 15:00:27 +??P5 15:00:32 zakim, ??P4 is matial 15:00:32 +matial; got it 15:00:41 +Addison_Phillips 15:00:45 zakim, dial richard-home 15:00:45 ok, r12a; the call is being made 15:00:45 +Richard 15:00:50 zakim, I am Addison_Phillips 15:00:50 ok, aphillip, I now associate you with Addison_Phillips 15:00:55 + +1.404.978.aaaa 15:01:18 kojiishi has joined #i18n 15:01:20 aharon has joined #i18n 15:02:13 I am on, but cannot get out of mute (courtesy of X-Lite 4 which insists to update just now) 15:02:25 zakim, mute me 15:02:25 Aharon should now be muted 15:03:28 Topic: Minutes and Agenda review 15:03:37 zakim, unmute me 15:03:37 Aharon should no longer be muted 15:03:40 +??P10 15:03:48 zakim, ??P10 is me 15:03:48 +kojiishi; got it 15:03:55 aharon: bidi update on html5 15:04:01 ... lists and images 15:04:16 ... validity of unicode controls in html 15:04:26 zakim, mute me 15:04:26 Aharon should now be muted 15:04:31 Topic: Action Items 15:04:53 Dump charmod-norm and add disclaimer paragraph, dates, etc. so that we can publish an interim working draft 15:05:09 zakim, mute Ahron 15:05:09 sorry, aphillip, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Ahron 15:05:14 zakim, mute Aharon 15:05:14 Aharon was already muted, aphillip 15:05:29 zakim, who is noisy? 15:05:36 zakim, mute me 15:05:36 matial should now be muted 15:05:39 aphillip, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: matial (55%), Addison_Phillips (35%) 15:05:47 zakim, matial 15:05:47 I don't understand 'matial', aphillip 15:05:53 zakim, mute matial 15:05:53 matial was already muted, aphillip 15:06:29 Change 512 to 1024 in the charset declaration article 15:07:03 close ACTION-59 15:07:03 ACTION-59 Figure out how to keep alive open bugs for the html5 LC closed 15:07:56 close ACTION-62 15:07:56 ACTION-62 Write to HTML5 chairs and ask for extension to complete our comments targetting mid-August (??) closed 15:09:41 Topic: Info Share 15:10:26 Topic: HTML5 bidi 15:10:27 zakim, unmute me 15:10:27 Aharon should no longer be muted 15:11:54 aharon: dir=auto... 15:12:06 ... the implementation results in webkit 15:12:13 ... I saw that it wasn't doing everything 15:12:18 ... oversight in the specification 15:12:23 ... concentrating on text nodes 15:12:29 ... and has no meaning for inputs 15:12:35 ... and no meaning for text-area 15:12:56 ... opened bug on that 15:13:09 ... and good response from bidi-aware folks 15:13:13 ... no editor response yet 15:13:20 ... hope Ian gets to it 15:13:28 ... concerned that it will be overlooked 15:13:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 15:13:55 aharon: particular issue with lists 15:14:05 ... the CSS3 lists module 15:14:16 ... has changes for bidi, but still in flux 15:14:23 ... still in draft 15:14:41 ... the problem is that it has an implication for html5 15:15:08 ... because CSS2 default is obviously bad for bidi but cannot change in CSS3 15:15:37 ... so HTML5 needs to specify in its default stylesheet the correct CSS3 items for bidi as default... 15:15:52 ... but CSS3 can't be referenced due to its draft status :-( 15:15:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 15:16:40 aharon: fantasai advises "don't worry" 15:16:55 aharon: images... 15:17:05 ... wanted a new feature for image flipping 15:17:13 ... was in WD of CSS3 images 15:17:20 ... but cut because no implementations 15:17:35 ... but it was only in the draft for 3 months 15:17:49 ... that feature will be moved to CSS4 15:18:50 addison: protest to css? 15:19:33 ACTION: Addison: send email to style@ advising that we want bidi image mirroring in CSS3 images 15:19:34 Created ACTION-64 - Send email to style@ advising that we want bidi image mirroring in CSS3 images [on Addison Phillips - due 2011-08-17]. 15:19:55 action: aharon: send addison details on CSS3 image mirroring 15:19:56 Created ACTION-65 - Send addison details on CSS3 image mirroring [on Aharon Lanin - due 2011-08-17]. 15:20:15 aharon: unicode formatting characters in HTML 15:20:20 ... not an action from us 15:20:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 15:20:50 aharon: some features can be handled by the unicode controls (some folks suggested) 15:20:57 ... I expained why this is bad 15:21:19 ... filed bug to disallow unbalanced controls 15:21:27 ... recently Ian put that into spec 15:22:05 ... so: within an attribute such as title, formatting characters must be balanced and within all text nodes of an element 15:22:22 ... problem is that the language also makes 2 problematic statements 15:22:36 ... 1) characters allows except when unbalanced 15:22:55 ... and adds note that "as a matter of convenience" can use dir, bdi, etc. 15:23:17 aharon: my problem is first that we should permit but discourage 15:23:29 ... discouraged period 15:24:02 aharon: markup is not "matter of convenience" but the preferred manner 15:24:07 ... reopened bug 15:24:48 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11234 15:25:56 ACTION: addison: add to bug 11234 that I18N WG favors the changes requested 15:25:56 Created ACTION-66 - Add to bug 11234 that I18N WG favors the changes requested [on Addison Phillips - due 2011-08-17]. 15:26:17 zakim, mute me 15:26:17 Aharon should now be muted 15:26:20 Topic: HTML 15:26:33 zakim, who's here ? 15:26:33 On the phone I see matial (muted), andrewc, Addison_Phillips, Richard, Aharon (muted), kojiishi 15:26:35 On IRC I see aharon, kojiishi, matial, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, andrewc, r12a, trackbot 15:27:09 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10830 15:29:13 Addison: should we reopen tag 15:29:22 richard: everyone in world wants this 15:29:30 ... but ian is not swayed to provide this tag 15:29:55 ... think this stance is not good for backwards compatibility 15:30:05 ... and since IE9 and other browsers support 15:30:23 ... asking for it to be optional, not for complete change to ruby model 15:33:34 Can anyone summarize the reasons that ian is rejecting it? 15:34:35 aharon, i think that's actually the problem - we can't see why 15:34:48 If this is just asking for , not for the feature that makes useful, then this is definitely a WONTFIX. Legacy IE browsers ignored in practice. In the model supported by the spec, the element provides no useful purpose. 15:35:39 richard: non-IE browsers didn't ignore 15:35:40 zakim, unmute me 15:35:40 Aharon should no longer be muted 15:36:03 koji: number of cases cited by myself and fantasai 15:37:04 aharon: needs a bit more, since Ian feels ruby can be provided using other markup 15:37:31 ... the thing to stress that serves useful purpose 15:38:03 richard: reopen and ask they address why our arguments are not good enough 15:38:19 zakim, mute me 15:38:19 Aharon should now be muted 15:39:57 ACTION: addison: reopen 10830 for WG indicating that we are not satisfied, citing the usefulness, backward compatibility, and current implementation 15:39:58 Created ACTION-67 - Reopen 10830 for WG indicating that we are not satisfied, citing the usefulness, backward compatibility, and current implementation [on Addison Phillips - due 2011-08-17]. 15:40:55 richard: propose the text to the WG first 15:41:01 addison: good idea 15:41:26 ACTION: addison: propose text for reopening 10830 to WG before actually opening it 15:41:27 Created ACTION-68 - Propose text for reopening 10830 to WG before actually opening it [on Addison Phillips - due 2011-08-17]. 15:42:09 koji: another bug about 15:42:25 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13113 15:43:34 (all): need to read this 15:43:50 ... include next week 15:44:31 richard: jukugo ruby could be done via styling (I heard) 15:44:38 ... so maybe complex ruby isn't needed? 15:44:47 koji: no new information 15:45:09 ... but ruby on both sides works better with complex 15:45:17 ... although can be done 15:45:33 ... but html wg is negative about complex ruby 15:45:37 ... could live without 15:46:36 richard: solution is nesting ruby rather than complex 15:46:49 ... tried and it isn't as bad as it could be 15:47:34 ... complex is more than we needed, so would be happy if we could avoid 15:47:41 ... but haven't checked if that is always possible 15:47:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 15:48:26 koji: hoping to make css-ruby spec progress 15:48:41 ... hope to verify that all use cases are covered 15:48:47 ... but haven't implemented yet 15:49:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 15:50:55 Topic: AOB? 15:51:20 bye all! 15:51:21 Bye 15:51:21 -kojiishi 15:51:23 -Addison_Phillips 15:51:30 aharon has left #i18n 15:51:31 -matial 15:51:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 15:51:33 -andrewc 15:51:40 -Aharon 15:51:42 -Richard 15:51:42 I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended 15:51:44 Attendees were matial, Addison_Phillips, Richard, +1.404.978.aaaa, Aharon, andrewc, kojiishi 15:51:51 andrewc has left #i18n 15:52:15 rrsagent, make minutes 15:52:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 15:52:18 zakim, bye 15:52:18 Zakim has left #i18n 15:52:21 rrsagent, bye 15:52:21 I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-actions.rdf : 15:52:21 ACTION: Addison: send email to style@ advising that we want bidi image mirroring in CSS3 images [1] 15:52:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-irc#T15-19-33 15:52:21 ACTION: aharon: send addison details on CSS3 image mirroring [2] 15:52:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-irc#T15-19-55 15:52:21 ACTION: addison: add to bug 11234 that I18N WG favors the changes requested [3] 15:52:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-irc#T15-25-56 15:52:21 ACTION: addison: reopen 10830 for WG indicating that we are not satisfied, citing the usefulness, backward compatibility, and current implementation [4] 15:52:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-irc#T15-39-57 15:52:21 ACTION: addison: propose text for reopening 10830 to WG before actually opening it [5] 15:52:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-irc#T15-41-26