14:59:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webevents
14:59:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-webevents-irc
15:00:00 <mbrubeck> Zakim, who is here?
15:00:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.206.792.aaaa, Art_Barstow
15:00:02 <smaug> is there some voip number or such to which I could call using skype?
15:00:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Dzung_Tran, Zakim, ArtB, smaug, trackbot, shepazu, mbrubeck
15:00:06 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
15:00:10 <mbrubeck> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:00:10 <Zakim> +mbrubeck; got it
15:00:19 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
15:00:19 <ArtB> Scribe: Art
15:00:19 <ArtB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0020.html
15:00:19 <ArtB> Date: 9 August 2011
15:00:19 <ArtB> Chair: Art
15:00:21 <ArtB> Meeting: Web Events WG Voice Conference
15:00:28 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:00:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
15:00:41 <Zakim> + +1.503.712.aacc
15:00:46 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
15:01:12 <ArtB> zakim, aacc is Tran_Dzung
15:01:12 <Zakim> +Tran_Dzung; got it
15:01:28 <Zakim> +??P13
15:01:40 <smaug> Zakim, ??P13 is Olli_Pettay
15:01:40 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
15:01:46 <mbrubeck> Zakim, Tran_Dzung is really Dzung_Tran
15:01:46 <Zakim> +Dzung_Tran; got it
15:02:01 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
15:02:01 <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
15:02:29 <mbrubeck> Zakim, who is here?
15:02:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see mbrubeck, Art_Barstow, Dzung_Tran, Olli_Pettay
15:02:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Dzung_Tran, Zakim, ArtB, smaug, trackbot, shepazu, mbrubeck
15:02:37 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Matt_Brubeck, Olli_Pettay, Dzung_Tran
15:02:52 <mbrubeck> zakim, nick mbrubeck is Matt_Brubeck
15:02:52 <Zakim> sorry, mbrubeck, I do not see a party named 'Matt_Brubeck'
15:03:46 <ArtB> Topic: Tweak Agenda
15:03:53 <ArtB> AB: draft agenda posted on August 8 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0020.html. One change I want to make is to move the Examples List topic after Issue-16.
15:04:28 <ArtB> AB: any change requests?
15:04:32 <ArtB> [ None ]
15:04:37 <ArtB> Topic: Announcements
15:04:44 <ArtB> AB: any short announcements today?
15:05:41 <ArtB> Topic: Issue-19: Align initTouchEvent parameters with Webkit
15:05:42 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
15:05:47 <ArtB> AB: Issue-19 http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/19 has open Action-55 for Laszlo http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/55
15:06:15 <ArtB> AB: Laszlo is still unavailable so we will skip this topic
15:06:39 <ArtB> AB: I think we should address this before LC
15:06:56 <ArtB> MB: after our last call, I commented on the webkit bug
15:07:04 <ArtB> … re some alignment
15:07:25 <ArtB> … I haven't received any feedback on what I added to that webkit bug
15:07:37 <ArtB> AB: thanks for following up on that
15:07:41 <mbrubeck> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60612
15:07:55 <ArtB> Topic: Issue-16: Should the spec be silent or prescriptive re Object Identity
15:08:01 <ArtB> Present+ Doug_Schepers
15:08:08 <ArtB> AB: Issue-16 http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/16 has open Action-53 by Doug http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/53. Sangwhan submitted some comments on August 3 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0015.html
15:08:32 <ArtB> AB: June 14 is the last time we discussed this issue http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-webevents-minutes.html#item04
15:08:38 <ArtB> Present+ Cathy_Chan
15:09:15 <ArtB> DS: no progress on that action
15:09:23 <ArtB> … plan to work on it this week
15:10:58 <ArtB> AB: this is somewhat related to the question about the list definitions for Target Events
15:12:25 <ArtB> DS: would it be useful to try to do web searches on this issue?
15:12:35 <ArtB> MB: yes, I've been using Google Code searches
15:12:41 <ArtB> … it covers a lot of OSS code
15:12:47 <Cathy> Cathy has joined #webevents
15:12:59 <ArtB> … but only covers code in public repos and doesn't cover everything on the Web
15:13:51 <ArtB> AB: do you need anything from the rest of use Doug re this issue?
15:13:59 <ArtB> DS: no; just need to do the analysis
15:14:09 <ArtB> MB: I disagree with Sangwhan's latest message
15:14:30 <ArtB> … I think the assert in example 2 of Issue-16 should fail
15:14:48 <ArtB> … I will respond on the list
15:15:11 <ArtB> … If they are all immutable the question of shared identity doesn't matter so much
15:15:24 <ArtB> AB: yes, please do that 
15:15:33 <ArtB> DT: have we looked at the Webkit impl?
15:15:55 <ArtB> DS: I think someone took an action
15:16:02 <mbrubeck> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0121.html
15:16:21 <ArtB> MB: laszlo has open action-46
15:16:27 <ArtB> action-46?
15:16:27 <trackbot> ACTION-46 -- Laszlo Gombos to laszlo to follow-up re Object Identity implementation in WebKit -- due 2011-05-17 -- CLOSED
15:16:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/46
15:16:48 <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0121.html
15:17:50 <ArtB> AB: so it appears then that Laszlo agrees with Matt re the 2nd example
15:18:17 <ArtB> DS: I agree with Matt
15:18:28 <ArtB> … thus there is no need for me to respond
15:19:24 <ArtB> … if Matt responds to Sangwhan, I think that will clarify things
15:19:42 <ArtB> AB: you propose Doug that action-53 be close?
15:19:54 <ArtB> DS: yes, I think we've now addressed the issue
15:20:11 <ArtB> CC: do any changes need to be made to the spec to clarify this?
15:20:20 <ArtB> DS: yes; good point
15:20:28 <ArtB> … need a different action for it though
15:20:45 <ArtB> AB: what's the action
15:21:25 <ArtB> ACTION: Doug propose spec text to address the resolution of issue-16
15:21:44 <ArtB> DS: I'll do that after Sangwhan has responded to Matt
15:22:17 <ArtB> Topic: Examples of lists
15:22:25 <ArtB> AB: Sangwhan checked in some examples to complete Action-57 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webevents/raw-file/default/touchevents.html
15:22:40 <ArtB> AB: Cathy's sent comments re Sangwhan's examples: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0018.html
15:22:50 <ArtB> AB: Tran sent an example to the list http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0019.html
15:23:32 <ArtB> CC: I reviewed SM's examples
15:23:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-60 - Propose spec text to address the resolution of issue-16 [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-08-16].
15:23:45 <ArtB> … it raised the question about what targetTouches actually refers to
15:24:14 <ArtB> … There appears to be a discrepancy in the spec and the example
15:24:29 <ArtB> MB: I agree with Cathy's interpretation of the spec
15:24:50 <ArtB> … and I need to test the examples in running code to verify
15:25:11 <ArtB> CC: I looked at Safari doc
15:25:27 <ArtB> … it is a bit ambiguous
15:25:34 <ArtB> … I'll look for a link
15:25:51 <Cathy> http://developer.apple.com/library/safari/#documentation/UserExperience/Reference/TouchEventClassReference/TouchEvent/TouchEvent.html
15:26:32 <ArtB> CC: it says targetTouches "A collection of Touch objects representing all touches associated with this target.
15:26:33 <ArtB> "
15:26:44 <ArtB> MB: I can take an action to test the examples
15:26:53 <ArtB> AB: thanks Matt
15:27:25 <ArtB> ACTION: brubeck test Sangwhan's list examples against implementations
15:27:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-61 - Test Sangwhan's list examples against implementations [on Matt Brubeck - due 2011-08-16].
15:28:22 <ArtB> AB: Cathy also noted there is no way to determine how many touch points are currently on a particular element
15:28:31 <ArtB> CC: yes; is that an issue?
15:28:52 <ArtB> CC: so app needs to keep track?
15:28:55 <ArtB> MB: yes
15:29:22 <mbrubeck> using touchenter and touchleave (once those are implemented)
15:29:22 <sangwhan> sangwhan has joined #webevents
15:29:29 <ArtB> OP: you can also use coordinates from the touch point element
15:29:41 <smaug> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#dom-document-elementfrompoint
15:30:43 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:30:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
15:31:52 <Zakim> +??P1
15:32:01 <sangwhan> zakim, ??P1 is me
15:32:01 <Zakim> +sangwhan; got it
15:32:05 <ArtB> zakim, ??P1 is Sangwhan_Moon
15:32:05 <Zakim> I already had ??P1 as sangwhan, ArtB
15:33:01 <ArtB> Present+ Sangwhan_Moon
15:33:15 <ArtB> SM: we may want to add some heuristics
15:33:25 <ArtB> … about number of touches
15:33:35 <ArtB> … it can be a problem in the long run
15:34:09 <ArtB> MB: the main reason behind the current language is to align with Webkit
15:34:21 <ArtB> … if we want to change that, we need to be careful
15:34:35 <ArtB> SM: we can also think about adding new things in the next version of the spec
15:35:05 <ArtB> AB: I think our working assumption is for v1 to match what has already been implemented
15:35:34 <ArtB> AB: Tran submitted an example
15:35:51 <ArtB> TD: I tried my example on Safari and phone with Webkit
15:36:21 <ArtB> … it's up to the group if we want to do anything with my example
15:36:39 <ArtB> … want to add some additional features like rotation
15:36:54 <ArtB> SM: like to have other features included
15:37:05 <ArtB> … but would be good to make it a bit shorter
15:37:14 <ArtB> … and just focus on the minimal amount of code
15:37:29 <ArtB> TD: it's fine with me if the Editors want to change it 
15:37:43 <ArtB> SM: OK; I'll make some mods and then run them by you
15:37:47 <ArtB> TD: ok; sounds good
15:38:05 <ArtB> … do we want to introduce a Rotation example?
15:38:51 <ArtB> MB: I have some comments that I will send to the list
15:39:17 <ArtB> SM: the v1 spec doesn't have rotation, correct?
15:39:23 <ArtB> MB: yes, that's correct
15:39:51 <ArtB> Topic: Preparing Touch Events v1 spec for Last Call WD
15:40:02 <ArtB> AB: one action blocking LC is Doug's Action-56 "Update the Touch Event spec to use markup to facilitate 
15:40:03 <ArtB> test case extraction" http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/56
15:40:49 <ArtB> DS: my f2f meeting and other high priority stuff got in the way
15:40:54 <ArtB> … should be done this week
15:41:08 <ArtB> … would appreciate it if Matt would ping me about this ;-)!
15:41:12 <smaug> we can all kick shepazu :)
15:41:43 <ArtB> DS: this shouldn't stop us from creating tests, right
15:41:48 <ArtB> AB: yes; good point!
15:42:05 <ArtB> … there is always an Open Action for everyone to Create Tests!
15:43:03 <ArtB> DS: after I complete action-56, it would be good to assign blocks of assertions to individuals
15:43:09 <ArtB> … does that seem reasonable?
15:43:18 <ArtB> DT: think it's a good idea
15:43:30 <smaug> +1
15:43:37 <sangwhan> +1
15:44:46 <ArtB> DS: v1 will be limited to features already implemented
15:44:58 <ArtB> … does it appear there will be at least 2 impls for each feature?
15:45:14 <ArtB> MB: I think the main interop issue is going to be the params for initTouchEvent
15:45:18 <ArtB> … Issue-19
15:45:30 <ArtB> … Other than that, I think all of the other v1 features are interoperable
15:45:56 <ArtB> DS: I ask, because that will block our progress toward Recommendation
15:46:34 <ArtB> AB: perhaps during LC review period we can do some analysis about what has been implemented
15:46:57 <ArtB> DS: we could conceivably skip CR if we have all features implemented in the LC time frame
15:47:13 <Zakim> -sangwhan
15:47:17 <ArtB> … assuming we have the tests in place
15:47:55 <Zakim> +??P1
15:47:57 <ArtB> AB: want to spend some time on the spec's 2 "red block issues"
15:48:00 <sangwhan> zakim, ??P1 is me
15:48:00 <Zakim> +sangwhan; got it
15:48:30 <ArtB> … first one has to do with aligning with InkML
15:49:00 <Cathy> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webevents/raw-file/default/touchevents.html#attributes
15:49:12 <ArtB> AB: have we already said this is out of scope for v1?
15:49:15 <ArtB> DS: yes
15:49:20 <ArtB> SM: yes
15:49:45 <ArtB> AB: so this will be resolved when we make the spec split?
15:49:46 <ArtB> DS: yes
15:50:12 <ArtB> AB: ok, the 2nd red block issue is "What are units of radiusX/Y? CSS Pixels?
15:50:18 <ArtB> SM: that is also moved to v2
15:50:21 <ArtB> DS: correct
15:50:22 <ArtB> CC: yes
15:50:42 <ArtB> MB: the spec actually seems to address it, right above the issue
15:51:01 <ArtB> DS: I had an answer at one point of time but wanted more feedback
15:51:31 <ArtB> AB: so radiusX will not be in v1?
15:51:37 <ArtB> DS: yes, that's correct
15:51:39 <ArtB> MB: yes
15:51:51 <ArtB> MB: speaking of v1
15:51:59 <ArtB> … I am all set to make the split
15:52:17 <ArtB> … was waiting for Doug
15:52:20 <ArtB> … but won't now
15:52:27 <ArtB> … I will create a v1 branch
15:52:43 <ArtB> … and the trunk will continue on for v2
15:52:56 <ArtB> … and we can apply changes to both branches as needed
15:53:04 <ArtB> SM: sounds good
15:53:07 <ArtB> AB: +1
15:53:37 <ArtB> DS: so we can split now and still apply a changeset to both?
15:53:45 <ArtB> MB: yes, we can do that
15:53:57 <ArtB> … some of the patches may need to be done manually
15:54:19 <ArtB> … I don't expect the two branches to ever reunite
15:54:39 <ArtB> … v1 will stop changing as the spec freezes
15:55:06 <ArtB> SM: for v1, we should do some testing before stripping out features
15:55:30 <ArtB> DS: that implies we have the tests
15:55:40 <ArtB> … but we aren't quite there yet
15:55:44 <ArtB> … until we get the tests
15:56:15 <ArtB> … it's a good idea and will be done during the implementation phase
15:57:01 <ArtB> Topic: Any Other Business (AOB)
15:57:51 <ArtB> AB: August 30 is the next time I can make a call
15:58:10 <ArtB> DS: if we get enough actions and work done before then, I can chair a call
15:58:16 <ArtB> AB: that works for me
15:58:34 <sangwhan> WFM
15:59:01 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
15:59:03 <Zakim> -Dzung_Tran
15:59:05 <Zakim> -sangwhan
15:59:05 <ArtB> AB: meeting adjourned
15:59:06 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
15:59:11 <Zakim> -Art_Barstow
15:59:15 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:59:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
15:59:18 <Zakim> -mbrubeck
15:59:20 <Zakim> RWC_WebEven()11:00AM has ended
15:59:22 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.206.792.aaaa, +1.781.993.aabb, Art_Barstow, mbrubeck, +1.503.712.aacc, Olli_Pettay, Dzung_Tran, Doug_Schepers, sangwhan
16:08:17 <sangwhan> sangwhan has left #webevents
17:18:45 <abarsto> abarsto has joined #webevents
17:55:39 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webevents
19:18:02 <ArtB> RRSAgent, bye
19:18:02 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-webevents-actions.rdf :
19:18:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Doug propose spec text to address the resolution of issue-16 [1]
19:18:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-webevents-irc#T15-21-25
19:18:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: brubeck test Sangwhan's list examples against implementations [2]
19:18:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-webevents-irc#T15-27-25