IRC log of tagmem on 2011-08-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:50:50 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc
16:50:55 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #tagmem
16:51:00 [jar]
zakim, this will be tag
16:51:00 [Zakim]
ok, jar; I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
17:00:06 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started
17:00:13 [Zakim]
+jar
17:00:17 [Zakim]
+plinss
17:01:19 [noah]
noah has joined #tagmem
17:01:27 [jar]
scribenick: jar
17:01:28 [Zakim]
+Noah_Mendelsohn
17:01:51 [noah]
Jonathan, thanks for noticing the scribing. Meant to give you a heads-up.
17:02:01 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
17:02:01 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jar, plinss, Noah_Mendelsohn
17:02:02 [Zakim]
On IRC I see noah, Zakim, RRSAgent, jar, plinss, Yves, trackbot
17:02:58 [Ashok]
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17:03:36 [Zakim]
+Ashok_Malhotra
17:05:57 [jar]
topic: Convene
17:06:22 [ht]
ht has joined #tagmem
17:06:51 [jar]
noah: Did minutes of 14th get approved at last meeting? Not clear in minutes of the 21st
17:07:34 [noah]
Summer schedule http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/coordination/Summer2011Availability.xls
17:07:36 [jar]
(that was topic: approve minutes.)
17:07:49 [jar]
(minutes of 21st not discussed today)
17:07:56 [jar]
topic: Administrative items
17:08:03 [Zakim]
+??P13
17:08:09 [ht]
zakim, ? is me
17:08:09 [Zakim]
+ht; got it
17:08:15 [jar]
Looking at meeting scheduling.
17:08:53 [jar]
noah: Wait until Sept 1? But that's a long way off, and we have a F2F coming up
17:09:12 [jar]
(looking at regrets spreadsheet)
17:10:15 [ht]
What about 11 Aug?
17:11:32 [jar]
noah: Let's talk about the 11th at the end of today's call
17:11:45 [jar]
(discussion of hotels in Edinburgh)
17:12:51 [jar]
ht: Consider B&Bs
17:13:03 [ht]
apex in grassmarket is sort of mid-price, I think
17:14:01 [jar]
apex city or apex international?
17:14:21 [jar]
city.
17:15:39 [jar]
plinss: A few weeks ago I found lots of hotels full
17:15:51 [noah]
Carleton, across from Radisson
17:17:34 [jar]
topic: Planning for Sept. 2011 F2F
17:17:57 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/
17:19:33 [jar]
HTML5 LC review (product). Due date yesterday
17:20:58 [jar]
noah: that one seems set for now. next:...
17:21:06 [jar]
noah: Fragids and mime types
17:21:23 [noah]
Product page for fragids: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/fragids.html
17:21:31 [ht]
I can either have headphones or mike :-(
17:21:33 [ht]
Hodl on
17:21:51 [noah]
We claimed we would produce a TAG Finding at year end 2011, is that right?
17:22:27 [jar]
ACTION-567?
17:22:27 [trackbot]
ACTION-567 -- Jeni Tennison to draft a document describing problems around fragids and ways things should be changed -- due 2011-06-28 -- OPEN
17:22:27 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/567
17:22:37 [noah]
We should add document pointer to the product page.
17:22:48 [noah]
Look for F2F minutes?
17:23:20 [noah]
HT: I think that's reasonable. Not sure whether either of us can prepare anything for F2F.
17:23:56 [jar]
noah: Wondering if Jeni's rdfa/microdata obligations will interfere
17:24:26 [jar]
noah: HT, any chance of progress in Aug
17:25:15 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/06/07-minutes.html#item01
17:25:55 [noah]
<trackbot> ACTION-543 -- Jeni Tennison to propose addition to MIME/Web draft to discuss sem-web use of fragids not grounded in media type -- due 2011-06-15 -- OPEN
17:25:55 [noah]
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/543
17:26:37 [noah]
This might be what Jeni prepared: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011May/0089.html
17:28:03 [jar]
right.
17:28:03 [Larry]
Larry has joined #tagmem
17:28:37 [Zakim]
+Masinter
17:29:03 [jar]
ht: Peter and I are more likely to succeed if there's something to work from [is it message 0089?]
17:29:46 [jar]
ht: I only have capacity to do one thing well (before f2f)
17:30:29 [jar]
plinss: Can probably kick in and help, ...
17:31:35 [noah]
NM: Peter, can you join Henry and Jeni on ACTIONS-543 and ACTION-567?
17:31:39 [noah]
PL: Yes, willing to try.
17:31:43 [noah]
HT: Not sure what to do.
17:32:11 [noah]
NM: My priority is making real progress at the F2F so we can have a finding in Dec. Can HT, PL and Jeni tell me in a week or so how they recommend doing that?
17:32:13 [noah]
HT: Yes.
17:33:45 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/
17:34:20 [Larry]
The MIME stuff is a little chaotic and hard to sort out what to do next giving what's going on in IETF
17:34:20 [Zakim]
-ht
17:34:40 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/clientsidestate.html
17:34:53 [noah]
New draft from Ashok: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/IdentifyingApplicationState-20110715.html
17:35:19 [noah]
Stated goal is: 1 Sept 2011: Last-call quality draft
17:35:25 [Larry]
I think the "Fragment Identifiers and MIME types" product needs changes to coordinate, but I'm not entirely sure what the right milestones are
17:35:56 [noah]
Larry: please work with Henry, Peter, and Jeni on that.
17:36:27 [jar]
noah: How does your [Ashok's] latest relate to a future LC draft?
17:37:14 [jar]
ashok: [scribe missed. All please review what's already there]
17:37:37 [noah]
From my blog entry: http://blog.arcanedomain.com/2011/03/identifying-documents-in-web-applications/
17:37:44 [noah]
A couple of bits of advice were given:
17:37:50 [jar]
noah: I wanted you to look at a blog post I wrote a while back
17:37:50 [noah]
"Use of AJAX implementation technology is not a sufficient excuse for failing to provide first class URI identification for documents on the Web"
17:38:11 [noah]
Maybe or maybe not: "Where practical, model your application as a collection of documents, each with its own URI"
17:38:36 [Larry]
maybe there's some more positive and actionable recommendation?
17:38:36 [Zakim]
+??P2
17:38:48 [ht]
zakim, ? is me
17:38:48 [Zakim]
+ht; got it
17:38:54 [jar]
ashok: the second one we should talk about. first looks ok, but I'd state it a bit differently
17:39:18 [jar]
noah: Please incorporate some of what I wrote into the document?
17:39:24 [jar]
ashok: I can do that
17:39:30 [Larry]
"When using Ajax/dynamic application state, application designers SHOULD also provide first class URI identification for 'document' view of application state"
17:39:54 [noah]
ACTION: Ashok to add text covering advice equivalent to "Use of AJAX implementation technology is not a sufficient excuse for failing to provide first class URI identification for documents on the Web"
17:39:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-586 - Add text covering advice equivalent to "Use of AJAX implementation technology is not a sufficient excuse for failing to provide first class URI identification for documents on the Web" [on Ashok Malhotra - due 2011-08-11].
17:40:12 [jar]
masinter: Make it positive and actionable.
17:41:15 [jar]
noah: Positive is good
17:41:23 [noah]
ACTION-458 Due 2011-09-01
17:41:23 [trackbot]
ACTION-458 Schedule discussion of followup actions for TAG to coordinate with IETF on MIME-type related activities due date now 2011-09-01
17:41:57 [Larry]
maybe this is really advice for application framework designers
17:41:59 [noah]
ACTION-481?
17:41:59 [trackbot]
ACTION-481 -- Ashok Malhotra to update client-side state document with help from Raman -- due 2011-09-10 -- OPEN
17:41:59 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/481
17:42:08 [Larry]
for example... is this something that could/should be built into jQuery?
17:42:18 [noah]
URI Definition and Discovery
17:42:21 [noah]
Product page: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/defininguris.html
17:42:33 [noah]
I added link to http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/issue57/20110625/
17:42:44 [noah]
NM: Did you get comments?
17:42:57 [noah]
JAR: I got a few good comments, but thought I would get more.
17:43:07 [noah]
HT: Well, it's still in my high priority queue
17:43:30 [Ashok]
Slipped below my radar
17:44:18 [noah]
JAR: There was a big flame war, I'm a little surprised/disappointed that folks who were participating in that discussion haven't weighted in.
17:44:26 [noah]
JAR: I did have a good exchange with Ian Davis.
17:44:43 [noah]
JAR: We probably need a meeting or phone call to get the progress we need.
17:45:06 [noah]
HT: Will people wake up if they feel threatened by a mandated solution?
17:45:20 [noah]
JAR: That was my plan in Feb. That could still be one way to go.
17:45:40 [noah]
JAR: Next steps of getting practical resolution of problems, as opposed to focusing on the document.
17:46:01 [noah]
Success criteria
17:46:01 [noah]
Uptake
17:46:01 [noah]
Technical interoperability of RDF used for metadata with RDF used for linked data
17:47:02 [jar]
noah: Could TAG members read & comment on the draft before the F2F?
17:49:10 [noah]
JAR: I'd like TAG members to read two things before the F2F. 1) I will revise http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/issue57/20110625/ before last week of August -- asking TAG members to read the revision for the F2F
17:49:26 [noah]
2) I will do a new document dealing with the metadata side of this.
17:49:56 [noah]
I think JAR is disappointed to find that many of the people who have been vocal on these subjects over the years didn't weigh in with comments on his draft.
17:50:10 [noah]
The metadata document will be related to ISSUE-63.
17:51:09 [noah]
ACTION-579?
17:51:09 [trackbot]
ACTION-579 -- Jonathan Rees to solicit review of issue-57 (definition discovery) document from readers of public-lod and/or semantic-web lists [self-assigned] -- due 2011-06-30 -- OPEN
17:51:09 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/579
17:51:09 [jar]
(1) definition discovery (303 / #) , (2) referring to documents on the web (info resource)
17:51:46 [jar]
(1) and (2) are unrelated logically, but competing over syntactic space. so need to look at both
17:52:11 [Larry]
I would reword the names of these
17:52:42 [noah]
close ACTION-579
17:52:43 [trackbot]
ACTION-579 Solicit review of issue-57 (definition discovery) document from readers of public-lod and/or semantic-web lists [self-assigned] closed
17:52:46 [Larry]
I don't like "Definition" as what is being discovered. "Intention of meaning by party A in the following communication scenario"
17:53:36 [Larry]
it isn't "what is being defined", it is "by whom "
17:54:05 [noah]
LM: It's a communication act.
17:54:25 [jar]
. action jar Prepare issue-57 and issue-63 documents for TAG members to discuss at Sept F2F
17:55:34 [jar]
action jar to prepare issue-57 and issue-63 documents for TAG members to discuss at Sept F2F due 2011-08-23
17:55:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-587 - Prepare issue-57 and issue-63 documents for TAG members to discuss at Sept F2F due 2011-08-23 [on Jonathan Rees - due 2011-08-11].
17:56:47 [Ashok]
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17:56:49 [noah]
ACTION-587?
17:56:49 [trackbot]
ACTION-587 -- Jonathan Rees to prepare issue-57 and issue-63 documents for TAG members to discuss at Sept F2F -- due 2011-08-23 -- OPEN
17:56:49 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/587
17:57:58 [noah]
Next up from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/ is Mime/Web
17:58:08 [noah]
Product page at: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/mimeweb.html
17:58:08 [jar]
jar has joined #tagmem
17:58:15 [noah]
Schedules:
17:58:15 [noah]
Note: a preliminary draft report was published by Norm Walsh on 22 March 2011
17:58:15 [noah]
30 September 2011: Report finalized
17:58:15 [noah]
30 September 2011: TAG achieves success criteria set out above, and identifies further goals and next steps, if any
17:58:51 [noah]
ACTION-587?
17:58:51 [trackbot]
ACTION-587 -- Jonathan Rees to prepare issue-57 and issue-63 documents for TAG members to discuss at Sept F2F -- due 2011-08-23 -- OPEN
17:58:51 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/587
17:59:52 [jar]
(still in F2F planning topic)
17:59:59 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/mimeweb.html
18:00:23 [noah]
Success criteria
18:00:23 [noah]
The TAG will publish (or ensure that others have published) analyses explaining the areas in which use of Mime on the Web is proving problematic, and will suggest concrete steps for resolving problems where they are found.
18:00:23 [noah]
The TAG will liase with the IETF and other concerned parties to resolve these issues
18:00:23 [noah]
The TAG, working with others as appropriate, will document the solutions that are agreed by the community, and will highlight areas in which unresolved problems remain.
18:01:15 [jar]
masinter: Haven't figured out what the right thing to do is
18:01:38 [noah]
Current deliverable commitment:
18:01:39 [noah]
Key deliverables with dates:
18:01:39 [noah]
31 December 2011: Final TAG Report on MIME architecture, most likely in the form of an Internet Draft
18:01:51 [noah]
Note that drafts are being published at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-masinter-mime-web-info
18:01:52 [Larry]
I got serious feedback from John Klensin (who also reported from Ned Freed) that they didn't think the draft-masinter-mime-web-info document was "helpful"
18:02:37 [jar]
larry: couldn't get more detail than that
18:02:39 [noah]
OK, so I think that means we need to think about whether this work remains a top priority for us.
18:03:52 [jar]
larry: Doc talks about 3 things that should probably be separated. 1 what's wrong with the content (what's in the entries). 2. the process around registration - problem with unregistered types or wrong registrations. happy-iana forum
18:04:16 [jar]
3. significant issues around mime sniffing, and what happens when the content is malformed
18:04:29 [jar]
s/3./larry: 3./
18:05:09 [jar]
larry: Maybe the three problems will get fixed in different forums. web security WG, mime registration, happy IANA
18:05:16 [noah]
Do you have a sense of whether your document was useful to those working on any of these 3 areas?
18:05:38 [jar]
larry: We might need to coordinate our efforts in 3 different ways
18:05:51 [Ashok]
q+
18:06:16 [noah]
ack next
18:06:29 [jar]
larry: "not helpful" might have had to do with document not teasing apart the 3 issue
18:07:04 [noah]
s/3 issue/3 issues/
18:07:06 [jar]
ashok: Maybe there should be a checklist for what registrations have to cover?
18:07:32 [jar]
s/masinter:/larry:/
18:07:33 [Larry]
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-freed-media-type-regs-00
18:07:51 [Larry]
that document has the checklist in it
18:07:59 [Larry]
if that checklist is inadequate, we should get it updated
18:09:18 [Larry]
perhaps we've done enough to get things going that we can declare success
18:09:33 [jar]
noah: Need to figure out priority. If continues high, maybe revise our deliverables list.
18:10:26 [jar]
larry: We may have done enough to kick off other efforts already, thus reducing the need for what we had originally proposed
18:11:01 [jar]
noah: Look at what we said (product page)...
18:11:04 [Larry]
there's another event, which is the change of the default charset for text/ MIME types in the HTTP spec and in MIME itself
18:11:50 [noah]
Success criteria
18:11:50 [noah]
The TAG will publish (or ensure that others have published) analyses explaining the areas in which use of Mime on the Web is proving problematic, and will suggest concrete steps for resolving problems where they are found.
18:11:55 [noah]
LM: We did that.
18:12:02 [noah]
"The TAG will liase with the IETF and other concerned parties to resolve these issues"
18:12:11 [noah]
LM: We've done some work on that, should do more.
18:12:36 [noah]
LM: Should review documents prepared by others, e.g. the Freed (sp?) document
18:12:37 [jar]
larry: We did the 1st thing (published an analysis). Maybe do a bit more on 2nd thing, e.g. review Freed document. and the sniffing document.
18:12:51 [noah]
"The TAG, working with others as appropriate, will document the solutions that are agreed by the community, and will highlight areas in which unresolved problems remain."
18:12:59 [noah]
LM: We need to ensure others are doing.
18:13:03 [jar]
larry: We need to ensure that solutions are documented (we don't necessarily need to do the documenting)
18:14:17 [jar]
noah: Let's schedule this for September.
18:15:15 [jar]
noah: Where we've changed a goal, let's leave some tracks [for accountability]
18:16:23 [Larry]
i'll take an action item to prepare for TAG F2F with a list of documents to review
18:17:37 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to work with Larry to update mime-web product page Due 2011-08-18
18:17:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-588 - Work with Larry to update mime-web product page Due 2011-08-18 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-08-11].
18:18:58 [noah]
ACTION-568?
18:18:58 [trackbot]
ACTION-568 -- Noah Mendelsohn to draft note for Jeff Jaffe listing 5 top TAG priorities as trackable items. -- due 2011-07-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:18:58 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/568
18:19:30 [jar]
noah: Providing input to Jeff on top 5 priorities
18:20:39 [noah]
NM: TAG members, are you OK with pointing Jeff to this?
18:21:52 [jar]
jar: as long as it's OK that the page I wrote is a draft
18:21:55 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to work with Jonthan to update URI definition discovery product page Due: 2011-08-18
18:21:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-589 - Work with Jonthan to update URI definition discovery product page Due: 2011-08-18 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-08-11].
18:23:04 [jar]
noah: Look at "other active projects" list?
18:23:49 [noah]
ACTION-440?
18:23:49 [trackbot]
ACTION-440 -- Henry Thompson to ask Hixie what is meant in this [section 9.2] by "retrieving an external entity" and could some clarification be added. -- due 2011-05-16 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:23:49 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/440
18:24:06 [jar]
ht: close action 440 - I've sent last call comment - nothing more to do.
18:24:08 [noah]
close ACTION-440
18:24:08 [trackbot]
ACTION-440 Ask Hixie what is meant in this [section 9.2] by "retrieving an external entity" and could some clarification be added. closed
18:24:38 [plinss]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
18:24:42 [Larry]
there is more work in IETF on unicode normailization
18:24:48 [jar]
plinss: Unicode normalization never got onto our radar
18:24:51 [Larry]
new IETf working group on the topic
18:25:19 [jar]
plinss: They want to present to us.
18:25:50 [Larry]
https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/precis/
18:25:54 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to follow up with Addison Phillips on Unicode normalization http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
18:25:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-590 - Follow up with Addison Phillips on Unicode normalization http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-08-11].
18:26:01 [Larry]
"Preparation and Comparison of Internationalized Strings"
18:26:23 [Larry]
see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-precis-problem-statement/
18:26:41 [Larry]
and https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-blanchet-precis-framework/
18:26:45 [noah]
Who is available for call next week?
18:26:48 [ht]
HT
18:26:50 [jar]
JAR
18:26:51 [noah]
Noah: maybe/probably
18:26:53 [plinss]
plinss
18:26:53 [Ashok]
AM
18:26:57 [Larry]
Larry: Maybe, not sure
18:27:24 [jar]
noah: OK, let's have a call. Priority is preparation for Sept.
18:28:39 [jar]
ht: Pretty happy with xlight4 (w3c suggests)
18:28:42 [jar]
ADJOURNED
18:28:59 [ht]
I use X-Lite 4 for VOIP from Windows box
18:29:34 [Zakim]
-Noah_Mendelsohn
18:29:35 [Ashok]
rrsagent, pointer
18:29:35 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc#T18-29-35
18:29:37 [Zakim]
-Masinter
18:29:38 [Zakim]
-ht
18:29:39 [noah]
Henry: please do let us know about hotels. Tnx.
18:29:39 [Zakim]
-jar
18:29:41 [Zakim]
-plinss
18:30:00 [Zakim]
-Ashok_Malhotra
18:30:02 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:30:04 [Zakim]
Attendees were jar, plinss, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok_Malhotra, ht, Masinter
18:34:55 [ht]
Yes, it's a good location (as I said, across the street from the Radisson) and likely to be quiet rooms
20:31:49 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tagmem