IRC log of rd on 2011-08-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:36 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rd
14:53:36 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:53:38 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:53:38 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rd
14:53:40 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7394
14:53:40 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_RDWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
14:53:41 [trackbot]
Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference
14:53:41 [trackbot]
Date: 04 August 2011
14:53:51 [shadi]
chair: Simon
14:54:09 [shadi]
regrets: Yeliz, Yehya, Karl
14:56:44 [Zakim]
WAI_RDWG()11:00AM has now started
14:56:52 [Zakim]
+ +61.8.920.6.aaaa
14:57:56 [Joshue]
Joshue has joined #rd
14:57:57 [sharper]
sharper has joined #rd
14:58:20 [sharper]
trackbot, start meeting
14:58:22 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:24 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7394
14:58:24 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_RDWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:25 [trackbot]
Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference
14:58:25 [trackbot]
Date: 04 August 2011
14:58:43 [sharper]
Chair: Simon_Harper
14:58:43 [sharper]
Agenda+ Welcome
14:58:43 [sharper]
Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments)
14:58:44 [sharper]
Agenda+ Benchmarking Web Accessibility Metrics (Automated Metrics, Evaluation, Benchmarking.)
14:58:44 [sharper]
Agenda+ Any Other Business
14:58:54 [sharper]
zakim, save agenda
14:59:00 [Zakim]
ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to
14:59:05 [sharper]
present+ Sharper
14:59:13 [markel]
markel has joined #rd
14:59:15 [sharper]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:59:15 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:59:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sharper
14:59:35 [Giorgi]
Giorgi has joined #rd
14:59:59 [Joshue]
zakim, code?
15:00:01 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, Joshue
15:00:16 [shadi]
zakim, aaaa is Vivienne
15:00:16 [Zakim]
sorry, shadi, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:00:32 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:39 [Zakim]
I notice WAI_RDWG()11:00AM has restarted
15:00:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +61.8.920.6.aaaa, ??P3, ??P49, ??P38
15:00:45 [Zakim]
15:00:45 [sharper]
zakim, ??P3 is sharper
15:00:55 [Joshue]
zakim, ??P50 is Joshue
15:01:03 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
15:01:04 [shadi]
zakim, aaaa is Vivienne
15:01:04 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
15:01:10 [Joshue]
15:01:11 [Zakim]
+Joshue; got it
15:01:21 [Zakim]
+Vivienne; got it
15:01:23 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
15:01:24 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 1
15:01:31 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Welcome" taken up [from sharper]
15:01:49 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
15:01:57 [Joshue]
any good
15:01:59 [Zakim]
Joshue was already muted, Joshue
15:02:10 [Joshue]
zakim, unmute me
15:02:16 [shadi]
zakim, mute ??p38
15:02:23 [Joshue]
15:02:42 [Zakim]
Joshue should no longer be muted
15:02:48 [Zakim]
??P38 should now be muted
15:02:49 [shadi]
zakim, unmute Joshue
15:02:57 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:16 [Zakim]
Joshue was not muted, shadi
15:03:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Vivienne, sharper, ??P49, ??P38 (muted), Joshue
15:03:38 [Zakim]
15:03:41 [shadi]
zakim, Joshue is really Markel
15:03:53 [shadi]
zakim, ??p29 is Giorgio
15:04:07 [shadi]
zakim, sharper is really Shadi
15:04:15 [Zakim]
+Markel; got it
15:04:16 [shadi]
zakim, ??p49 is Simon
15:04:25 [Zakim]
+Giorgio; got it
15:04:33 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:39 [Zakim]
+Shadi; got it
15:04:41 [Giorgi]
15:04:45 [Zakim]
+Simon; got it
15:04:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Vivienne, Shadi, Simon, ??P38 (muted), Markel, Giorgio
15:04:56 [Giorgi]
zakim, mute me
15:05:03 [vconway]
zakim, mute me
15:05:07 [Zakim]
Giorgio should now be muted
15:05:13 [Zakim]
sorry, vconway, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:05:16 [shadi]
zakim, ??p38 is Joshue
15:05:37 [Zakim]
+Joshue; got it
15:05:55 [shadi]
zakim, Vivienne is really vconway
15:06:23 [vconway]
zakim, mute me
15:06:31 [Zakim]
+vconway; got it
15:06:58 [Zakim]
vconway should now be muted
15:07:06 [Zakim]
15:07:20 [shadi]
zakim, ??p8 is Mate
15:07:30 [Zakim]
+Mate; got it
15:07:37 [markel]
I don't know how to do it
15:08:03 [Giorgi]
zakim, unmute me
15:08:03 [Zakim]
Giorgio should no longer be muted
15:10:24 [sharper]
scribe: Brajnik_Giorgio
15:10:24 [sharper]
ScribeNick: giorgi
15:10:44 [markel]
there's echo
15:10:48 [sharper]
zakim, close item 1
15:10:48 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Welcome, closed
15:10:49 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:10:51 [Zakim]
2. Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments) [from sharper]
15:10:58 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 3
15:10:58 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Benchmarking Web Accessibility Metrics (Automated Metrics, Evaluation, Benchmarking.)" taken up [from sharper]
15:11:03 [Giorgi]
Hsimon: let's talk about te web accessibilitymetrics item in the agenda
15:11:06 [sharper]
15:11:18 [shadi]
zakim, mute giorgio
15:11:18 [Zakim]
Giorgio should now be muted
15:11:42 [Giorgi]
ok, thanks
15:12:06 [Giorgi]
markel: wiki was updated as per actions last week.
15:12:45 [Giorgi]
markel: metrics=way to measure something.
15:13:04 [Joshue]
am looking at it now
15:13:04 [Giorgi]
no i did not.
15:13:42 [Giorgi]
markel: accessibility wrt conformance is one thing
15:13:52 [Giorgi]
markel: accessibility in use is another one
15:14:44 [Giorgi]
mv: up to now most metrics are based on results produced by tools
15:15:07 [Joshue]
Is SAMBA a tool? have you a URI?
15:15:39 [Giorgi]
samba is amethod. I have a paper; see from
15:16:18 [Giorgi]
mv: there are many diverse challenges concerned with metrics.
15:17:04 [Joshue]
interesting overview Marco, thanks.
15:17:21 [Joshue]
Sorry, Markel.
15:17:32 [Giorgi]
simon: which open questions are more interesting?
15:17:59 [Giorgi]
mv: accessibility in use is interesting for me.
15:18:11 [vconway]
I am also interested in how we can include the user aspect
15:18:14 [Joshue]
I think a very interesting question is "How metrics that measure accessibility in terms of conformance relate to accessibility in use?"
15:18:17 [Giorgi]
zakim, unmute me
15:18:17 [Zakim]
Giorgio should no longer be muted
15:18:50 [shadi]
+1 to joshue
15:18:54 [sharper]
GB: Important part is understanding when a metric is valid and when not
15:19:22 [sharper]
GB: need to make it more concrete / operational - 1 idea is to create a test collection
15:19:35 [Joshue]
Yes, and how can automated tools do this without explicitly reference some set of conformance criteria such as WCAG?
15:19:54 [sharper]
GB: with pages witch known qualities to test these metrics - then expect metrics to perform in specific ways
15:19:57 [Giorgi]
zakim, mute me
15:19:57 [Zakim]
Giorgio should now be muted
15:20:07 [vconway]
it would be great to develop some type of scoring system
15:20:24 [Giorgi]
simon: agrees, and refers to NLP and data mining
15:20:57 [Giorgi]
zakim, unmute me
15:20:57 [Zakim]
Giorgio should no longer be muted
15:21:36 [Giorgi]
shadi: carryingout a test is not a job of this wg
15:21:57 [Giorgi]
shadi: we should elaborate questions, refine them, ask opinions
15:22:41 [markel]
15:22:45 [Giorgi]
shadi: the two notions of acc should not be diverging
15:22:56 [Joshue]
yes, thanks markel :-)
15:23:01 [markel]
15:23:54 [Giorgi]
15:24:49 [Giorgi]
shadi: are these two ways to measure acc? or can we come up with a combined method?
15:24:55 [markel]
please could you guys turn the mic off?
15:25:02 [vconway]
I am working on trying to set up some kind of scoring system which sounds like what you're asking
15:25:27 [sharper]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:25:38 [Zakim]
sharper, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Shadi (15%), Giorgio (61%), Simon (9%)
15:25:57 [sharper]
ack Giorgi
15:26:46 [sharper]
GB: We should be like a steering committee making suggestions about where to steer this research
15:26:49 [shadi]
+1 that our goal is steering researchers
15:27:06 [sharper]
GB: we don't do it , but make proposals about the properties it should have
15:27:20 [sharper]
+1 that our goal is steering researchers
15:28:03 [sharper]
GB: would distinguish the acc in use and acc conf
15:28:21 [sharper]
GB: discusses the possibilities of measuring accessibility in use
15:29:04 [Giorgi]
zakim, mute me
15:29:05 [Zakim]
Giorgio should now be muted
15:29:46 [Giorgi]
simon: agrees.
15:30:10 [Giorgi]
simon: we should discuss on test collections and also on the 2 notions of acc.
15:30:38 [vconway]
I certainly agree that we need both
15:31:02 [Giorgi]
simon: there are no frequent references in literatutre to these two defs.
15:31:19 [Joshue]
sorry, was that to me?
15:31:29 [vconway]
zakim, unmute me
15:31:29 [Zakim]
vconway should no longer be muted
15:32:29 [Giorgi]
vconway: needs a scoring system to compare monthly but needs to weigh differently different aspects
15:32:49 [Giorgi]
say again which objects are you analyzing?
15:33:01 [Giorgi]
15:33:56 [Giorgi]
vconway: in AU they need to ensure that a site is conformant monhly
15:34:02 [Giorgi]
zakim, unmute me
15:34:02 [Zakim]
Giorgio should no longer be muted
15:34:11 [vconway]
zakim, mute me
15:34:11 [Zakim]
vconway should now be muted
15:34:23 [vconway]
zakim, unmute me
15:34:23 [Zakim]
vconway should no longer be muted
15:34:26 [Giorgi]
zakim, unmute me
15:34:26 [Zakim]
Giorgio was not muted, Giorgi
15:34:29 [shadi]
q+ to talk about "scoring" term
15:34:49 [shadi]
ack g
15:35:10 [Giorgi]
vconway: there are different acc policies and there are different site genres
15:35:30 [Giorgi]
ok, thanks a lot.
15:35:53 [sharper]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:35:58 [Giorgi]
mv: raises another question to vivianne
15:36:03 [Zakim]
sharper, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Giorgio (20%), vconway (25%), Markel (27%)
15:36:08 [Giorgi]
zakim,mute me
15:36:08 [Zakim]
Giorgio should now be muted
15:37:07 [Giorgi]
vivianne: needs a tool for measuring the progress over time
15:37:27 [Giorgi]
mv:asks vivianne if she used other published metrics
15:37:43 [Giorgi]
vivianne: has not found a scoring system coupled to wcag2
15:37:56 [markel]
thanks vivienne
15:38:01 [vconway]
zakim, mute me
15:38:01 [Zakim]
vconway should now be muted
15:38:36 [markel]
Giorgio do you remember the AIR reports?
15:38:42 [Giorgi]
15:38:43 [vconway]
ibm with the adesigner are doing a bit of scoring
15:38:50 [Giorgi]
15:38:59 [Joshue]
zakim, unmute me
15:39:00 [Zakim]
Joshue should no longer be muted
15:39:32 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
15:39:32 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
15:39:40 [shadi]
ack me
15:39:40 [Zakim]
shadi, you wanted to talk about "scoring" term
15:40:00 [Giorgi]
shadi: in use vs conformance
15:40:52 [Giorgi]
shadi: vivienne case is an interesting one (ie monitoring over time)
15:40:53 [vconway]
It would be nice to say 'we have improved from 35% to 80%'
15:41:01 [Zakim]
15:41:10 [Joshue]
15:41:18 [Giorgi]
zakim, unmute me
15:41:18 [Zakim]
Giorgio should no longer be muted
15:41:27 [shadi]
ack g
15:41:35 [vconway]
I lost the call
15:42:38 [shadi]
15:42:41 [Zakim]
+ +89206aabb
15:42:48 [Giorgi]
zakim, mute me
15:42:48 [Zakim]
Giorgio should now be muted
15:42:50 [Joshue]
zakim, unmute me
15:42:50 [Zakim]
Joshue should no longer be muted
15:43:06 [vconway]
Just got the call back, so probably missed something
15:43:17 [Giorgi]
joshue: likes the %approach; acc is not a binary thing
15:43:24 [shadi]
zakim, aabb is vconway
15:43:25 [Zakim]
+vconway; got it
15:43:40 [shadi]
ack j
15:43:41 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
15:43:41 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
15:43:46 [markel]
15:44:44 [Giorgi]
shadi: questions whether AIR/knowbility is or not conformance
15:45:02 [vconway]
I am having a user group also look at my 100 websites to see how the user groups relates to the %score
15:45:06 [Joshue]
how about a traffic light system?
15:45:20 [vconway]
traffic light?
15:45:29 [Giorgi]
shadi: if we could come with a scoring system that is objective and that mirors the level of acc it would be fine.
15:45:35 [Giorgi]
15:45:43 [shadi]
ack me
15:46:05 [shadi]
q+ to disagree with "As guidelines conformance does not necessarily entail accessibility in use"
15:46:10 [Giorgi]
mv: encourages to read the references in thewiki page
15:46:14 [Joshue]
yeah, like orange for 'in the middle, not great but not terrible', 'Green for a high level of conformance' and well "red' speaks for itself..
15:46:40 [Joshue]
just an idea..
15:46:46 [vconway]
good point Markel
15:47:02 [vconway]
Josh, the traffic light sounds good
15:47:04 [Giorgi]
mv: suggsts reading those proposals of metrics and identify weak pointsand AVOID inventing the wheel again (giorgio's emphasis)
15:47:06 [sharper]
15:47:21 [sharper]
ack markel
15:47:36 [Joshue]
thanks vivienne, other abstractions could be expored. I don't know if the driving metaphor is suitable.
15:47:37 [Giorgi]
mv: what is objectivity? completion time is pretty objective.
15:48:08 [vconway]
I think we need both
15:48:16 [sharper]
ack shadi
15:48:16 [Zakim]
shadi, you wanted to disagree with "As guidelines conformance does not necessarily entail accessibility in use"
15:48:37 [Giorgi]
shadi: responds to markel's question of whether acc in use /acc forconfomance is more important
15:49:08 [Giorgi]
shadi: if we don't comply with guidelines people with disabilities will have pbms in accssing the page
15:49:10 [vconway]
I have been comparing my results with that of a user group with good success
15:49:38 [Joshue]
shadi, it could be a subset of WCAG?
15:49:46 [markel]
15:49:48 [Giorgi]
shadi: we might be looking to elicit suggstions of how a perfect scoring system could work
15:50:08 [Joshue]
or it we could identify the most important 'must haves' for a11y
15:50:31 [Joshue]
Structured content, well formedness etc
15:50:31 [Giorgi]
shadi: there might be several aspects, propeorties of metrics to consider; eg cost
15:51:38 [sharper]
ack me
15:51:45 [Giorgi]
zakim,unmute me
15:51:45 [Zakim]
Giorgio should no longer be muted
15:52:18 [Giorgi]
shadi: sugegsts a webminar for call of proposals
15:52:36 [Giorgi]
shadi: maybe setting up a reviewpanel
15:54:26 [shadi]
15:55:23 [Joshue]
Yes, thanks I'll read the supporting materials on the wiki
15:55:47 [Giorgi]
zakim,mute me
15:55:47 [Zakim]
Giorgio should now be muted
15:56:14 [Giorgi]
ok, thank you
15:56:29 [Giorgi]
15:56:48 [Giorgi]
giorgio: volunteers to be a co-editor
15:57:10 [Joshue]
zakim, unmute me
15:57:10 [Zakim]
Joshue should no longer be muted
15:57:15 [Giorgi]
mv: will love helping me!
15:57:15 [Joshue]
15:57:29 [Giorgi]
zakim, q-
15:57:29 [Zakim]
I see Joshue on the speaker queue
15:57:34 [Giorgi]
no, i pass
15:57:37 [shadi]
ack j
15:57:40 [sharper]
ack Giorgi
15:57:59 [Giorgi]
joshue: would like to help in asupporting role
15:58:17 [Joshue]
I can do peer review etc
15:58:24 [vconway]
I'm happy to help in some way, bt I'm a bit of a baby at this
15:58:43 [shadi]
15:58:47 [Giorgi]
vivienne: would also like (and we'd like to have babies!)
15:59:18 [Giorgi]
simon: sees editors as program chairs
15:59:37 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
15:59:37 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
16:00:55 [Giorgi]
simon: we got 2 co-editors MV+GB
16:01:15 [Giorgi]
shadi: let's not forget rui and yeliz though
16:02:02 [Giorgi]
vivienne: is available for any help she can
16:02:46 [Giorgi]
shadi: anybody who would lik to volunteer shouldcontact shadi or simon
16:03:02 [vconway]
huge amount of echo in call
16:03:12 [markel]
please turn off the mics!
16:03:30 [Giorgi]
ok, thanks shadi. cheers
16:03:32 [Joshue]
ok, thanks everyone
16:03:35 [Joshue]
16:03:38 [markel]
thank you guys!
16:03:38 [vivienne]
bye all
16:03:42 [Zakim]
16:03:48 [Zakim]
16:03:48 [Zakim]
16:03:49 [Zakim]
16:04:01 [shadi]
trackbot, end meeting
16:04:01 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:04:01 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +61.8.920.6.aaaa, Markel, Giorgio, Shadi, Simon, Joshue, vconway, Mate, +89206aabb
16:04:02 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:04:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:04:03 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:04:03 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items