14:53:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rd
14:53:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-rd-irc
14:53:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:53:38 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rd
14:53:40 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7394
14:53:40 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_RDWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
14:53:41 <trackbot> Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference
14:53:41 <trackbot> Date: 04 August 2011
14:53:51 <shadi> chair: Simon
14:54:09 <shadi> regrets: Yeliz, Yehya, Karl
14:56:44 <Zakim> WAI_RDWG()11:00AM has now started
14:56:52 <Zakim> + +61.8.920.6.aaaa
14:57:56 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #rd
14:57:57 <sharper> sharper has joined #rd
14:58:20 <sharper> trackbot, start meeting
14:58:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:24 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7394
14:58:24 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_RDWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:25 <trackbot> Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference
14:58:25 <trackbot> Date: 04 August 2011
14:58:43 <sharper> Chair: Simon_Harper
14:58:43 <sharper> Agenda+ Welcome
14:58:43 <sharper> Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments)
14:58:44 <sharper> Agenda+ Benchmarking Web Accessibility Metrics (Automated Metrics, Evaluation, Benchmarking.)
14:58:44 <sharper> Agenda+ Any Other Business
14:58:54 <sharper> zakim, save agenda
14:59:00 <Zakim> ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-rd-agenda.rdf
14:59:05 <sharper> present+ Sharper
14:59:13 <markel> markel has joined #rd
14:59:15 <sharper> rrsagent, make logs public
14:59:15 <sharper> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:59:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-rd-minutes.html sharper
14:59:35 <Giorgi> Giorgi has joined #rd
14:59:59 <Joshue> zakim, code?
15:00:01 <Zakim> the conference code is 7394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Joshue
15:00:16 <shadi> zakim, aaaa is Vivienne
15:00:16 <Zakim> sorry, shadi, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:00:32 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:39 <Zakim> I notice WAI_RDWG()11:00AM has restarted
15:00:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see +61.8.920.6.aaaa, ??P3, ??P49, ??P38
15:00:45 <Zakim> +??P50
15:00:45 <sharper> zakim, ??P3 is sharper
15:00:55 <Joshue> zakim, ??P50 is Joshue
15:01:03 <Zakim> +sharper; got it
15:01:04 <shadi> zakim, aaaa is Vivienne
15:01:04 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:01:10 <Joshue> :-)
15:01:11 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
15:01:21 <Zakim> +Vivienne; got it
15:01:23 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:01:24 <sharper> zakim, take up item 1
15:01:31 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcome" taken up [from sharper]
15:01:49 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:01:57 <Joshue> any good
15:01:59 <Zakim> Joshue was already muted, Joshue
15:02:10 <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
15:02:16 <shadi> zakim, mute ??p38
15:02:23 <Joshue> thanks
15:02:42 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
15:02:48 <Zakim> ??P38 should now be muted
15:02:49 <shadi> zakim, unmute Joshue 
15:02:57 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:16 <Zakim> Joshue was not muted, shadi
15:03:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see Vivienne, sharper, ??P49, ??P38 (muted), Joshue
15:03:38 <Zakim> +??P29
15:03:41 <shadi> zakim, Joshue is really Markel
15:03:53 <shadi> zakim, ??p29 is Giorgio
15:04:07 <shadi> zakim, sharper is really Shadi
15:04:15 <Zakim> +Markel; got it
15:04:16 <shadi> zakim, ??p49 is Simon
15:04:25 <Zakim> +Giorgio; got it
15:04:33 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:39 <Zakim> +Shadi; got it
15:04:41 <Giorgi> mute
15:04:45 <Zakim> +Simon; got it
15:04:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Vivienne, Shadi, Simon, ??P38 (muted), Markel, Giorgio
15:04:56 <Giorgi> zakim, mute me
15:05:03 <vconway> zakim, mute me
15:05:07 <Zakim> Giorgio should now be muted
15:05:13 <Zakim> sorry, vconway, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:05:16 <shadi> zakim, ??p38 is Joshue
15:05:37 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
15:05:55 <shadi> zakim, Vivienne is really vconway
15:06:23 <vconway> zakim, mute me
15:06:31 <Zakim> +vconway; got it
15:06:58 <Zakim> vconway should now be muted
15:07:06 <Zakim> +??P8
15:07:20 <shadi> zakim, ??p8 is Mate
15:07:30 <Zakim> +Mate; got it
15:07:37 <markel> I don't know how to do it
15:08:03 <Giorgi> zakim, unmute me
15:08:03 <Zakim> Giorgio should no longer be muted
15:10:24 <sharper> scribe: Brajnik_Giorgio
15:10:24 <sharper> ScribeNick: giorgi
15:10:44 <markel> there's echo
15:10:48 <sharper> zakim, close item 1
15:10:48 <Zakim> agendum 1, Welcome, closed
15:10:49 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:10:51 <Zakim> 2. Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments) [from sharper]
15:10:58 <sharper> zakim, take up item 3
15:10:58 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Benchmarking Web Accessibility Metrics (Automated Metrics, Evaluation, Benchmarking.)" taken up [from sharper]
15:11:03 <Giorgi> Hsimon: let's talk about te web accessibilitymetrics item in the agenda
15:11:06 <sharper> http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Benchmarking_Web_Accessibility_Metrics
15:11:18 <shadi> zakim, mute giorgio
15:11:18 <Zakim> Giorgio should now be muted
15:11:42 <Giorgi> ok, thanks
15:12:06 <Giorgi> markel: wiki was updated as per actions last week.
15:12:45 <Giorgi> markel: metrics=way to measure something.
15:13:04 <Joshue> am looking at it now
15:13:04 <Giorgi> no i did not.
15:13:42 <Giorgi> markel: accessibility wrt conformance is one thing
15:13:52 <Giorgi> markel: accessibility in use is another one
15:14:44 <Giorgi> mv: up to now most metrics are based on results produced by tools
15:15:07 <Joshue> Is SAMBA a tool? have you a URI?
15:15:39 <Giorgi> samba is amethod. I have  a paper; see from www.dimi.uniud.it/giorgio/publications.html
15:16:18 <Giorgi> mv: there are many diverse challenges concerned with metrics.
15:17:04 <Joshue> interesting overview Marco, thanks.
15:17:21 <Joshue> Sorry, Markel.
15:17:32 <Giorgi> simon: which open questions are more interesting?
15:17:59 <Giorgi> mv: accessibility in use is interesting for me.
15:18:11 <vconway> I am also interested in how we can include the user aspect
15:18:14 <Joshue> I think a very interesting question is "How metrics that measure accessibility in terms of conformance relate to accessibility in use?"
15:18:17 <Giorgi> zakim, unmute me
15:18:17 <Zakim> Giorgio should no longer be muted
15:18:50 <shadi> +1 to joshue
15:18:54 <sharper> GB: Important part is understanding when a metric is valid and when not
15:19:22 <sharper> GB: need to make it more concrete / operational - 1 idea is to create a test collection
15:19:35 <Joshue> Yes, and how can automated tools do this without explicitly reference some set of conformance criteria such as WCAG?
15:19:54 <sharper> GB: with pages witch known qualities to test these metrics - then expect metrics to perform in specific ways
15:19:57 <Giorgi> zakim, mute me
15:19:57 <Zakim> Giorgio should now be muted
15:20:07 <vconway> it would be great to develop some type of scoring system
15:20:24 <Giorgi> simon: agrees, and refers to NLP and data mining 
15:20:57 <Giorgi> zakim, unmute me
15:20:57 <Zakim> Giorgio should no longer be muted
15:21:36 <Giorgi> shadi: carryingout a test is not a job of this wg
15:21:57 <Giorgi> shadi: we should elaborate questions, refine them, ask opinions
15:22:41 <markel> thanks
15:22:45 <Giorgi> shadi: the two notions of acc should not be diverging
15:22:56 <Joshue> yes, thanks markel :-)
15:23:01 <markel> :-)
15:23:54 <Giorgi> q+
15:24:49 <Giorgi> shadi: are these two ways to measure acc? or can we come up with a combined method?
15:24:55 <markel> please could you guys turn the mic off?
15:25:02 <vconway> I am working on trying to set up some kind of scoring system which sounds like what you're asking
15:25:27 <sharper> zakim, who is making noise?
15:25:38 <Zakim> sharper, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Shadi (15%), Giorgio (61%), Simon (9%)
15:25:57 <sharper> ack Giorgi
15:26:46 <sharper> GB: We should be like a steering committee making suggestions about where to steer this research
15:26:49 <shadi> +1 that our goal is steering researchers
15:27:06 <sharper> GB: we don't do it , but make proposals about the properties it should have
15:27:20 <sharper> +1 that our goal is steering researchers
15:28:03 <sharper> GB: would distinguish the acc in use and acc conf
15:28:21 <sharper> GB: discusses the possibilities of measuring accessibility in use
15:29:04 <Giorgi> zakim, mute me
15:29:05 <Zakim> Giorgio should now be muted
15:29:46 <Giorgi> simon: agrees. 
15:30:10 <Giorgi> simon: we should discuss on test collections and also on the 2 notions of acc.
15:30:38 <vconway> I certainly agree that we need both 
15:31:02 <Giorgi> simon: there are no frequent references in literatutre to these two defs.
15:31:19 <Joshue> sorry, was that to me?
15:31:29 <vconway> zakim, unmute me
15:31:29 <Zakim> vconway should no longer be muted
15:32:29 <Giorgi> vconway: needs a scoring system to compare monthly but needs to weigh differently different aspects
15:32:49 <Giorgi> say again which objects are you analyzing?
15:33:01 <Giorgi> q+
15:33:56 <Giorgi> vconway: in AU they need to ensure that a site is conformant monhly
15:34:02 <Giorgi> zakim, unmute me
15:34:02 <Zakim> Giorgio should no longer be muted
15:34:11 <vconway> zakim, mute me
15:34:11 <Zakim> vconway should now be muted
15:34:23 <vconway> zakim, unmute me
15:34:23 <Zakim> vconway should no longer be muted
15:34:26 <Giorgi> zakim, unmute me
15:34:26 <Zakim> Giorgio was not muted, Giorgi
15:34:29 <shadi> q+ to talk about "scoring" term
15:34:49 <shadi> ack g
15:35:10 <Giorgi> vconway: there are different acc policies and there are different site genres 
15:35:30 <Giorgi> ok, thanks a lot.
15:35:53 <sharper> zakim, who is making noise?
15:35:58 <Giorgi> mv: raises another question to vivianne
15:36:03 <Zakim> sharper, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Giorgio (20%), vconway (25%), Markel (27%)
15:36:08 <Giorgi> zakim,mute me
15:36:08 <Zakim> Giorgio should now be muted
15:37:07 <Giorgi> vivianne: needs a tool for measuring the progress over time
15:37:27 <Giorgi> mv:asks vivianne if she used other published metrics
15:37:43 <Giorgi> vivianne: has not found a scoring system coupled to wcag2
15:37:56 <markel> thanks vivienne
15:38:01 <vconway> zakim, mute me
15:38:01 <Zakim> vconway should now be muted
15:38:36 <markel> Giorgio do you remember the AIR reports?
15:38:42 <Giorgi> yes
15:38:43 <vconway> ibm with the adesigner are doing a bit of scoring
15:38:50 <Giorgi> q+
15:38:59 <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
15:39:00 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
15:39:32 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:39:32 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:39:40 <shadi> ack me
15:39:40 <Zakim> shadi, you wanted to talk about "scoring" term
15:40:00 <Giorgi> shadi: in use vs conformance
15:40:52 <Giorgi> shadi: vivienne case is an interesting one (ie monitoring over time)
15:40:53 <vconway> It would be nice to say 'we have improved from 35% to 80%'
15:41:01 <Zakim> -vconway
15:41:10 <Joshue> +q
15:41:18 <Giorgi> zakim, unmute me
15:41:18 <Zakim> Giorgio should no longer be muted
15:41:27 <shadi> ack g
15:41:35 <vconway> I lost the call
15:42:38 <shadi> q+
15:42:41 <Zakim> + +89206aabb
15:42:48 <Giorgi> zakim, mute me
15:42:48 <Zakim> Giorgio should now be muted
15:42:50 <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
15:42:50 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
15:43:06 <vconway> Just got the call back, so probably missed something
15:43:17 <Giorgi> joshue: likes the %approach; acc is not a binary thing
15:43:24 <shadi> zakim, aabb is vconway 
15:43:25 <Zakim> +vconway; got it
15:43:40 <shadi> ack j
15:43:41 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:43:41 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:43:46 <markel> +q
15:44:44 <Giorgi> shadi: questions whether AIR/knowbility is or not conformance
15:45:02 <vconway> I am having a user group also look at my 100 websites to see how the user groups relates to the %score
15:45:06 <Joshue> how about a traffic light system?
15:45:20 <vconway> traffic light?
15:45:29 <Giorgi> shadi: if we could come with a scoring system that is objective and that mirors the level of acc it would be fine.
15:45:35 <Giorgi> +q
15:45:43 <shadi> ack me
15:46:05 <shadi> q+ to disagree with "As guidelines conformance does not necessarily entail accessibility in use"
15:46:10 <Giorgi> mv: encourages to read the references in thewiki page
15:46:14 <Joshue> yeah, like orange for 'in the middle, not great but not terrible', 'Green for a high level of conformance' and well "red' speaks for itself..
15:46:40 <Joshue> just an idea..
15:46:46 <vconway> good point Markel
15:47:02 <vconway> Josh, the traffic light sounds good
15:47:04 <Giorgi> mv: suggsts reading those proposals of metrics and identify weak pointsand AVOID inventing the wheel again (giorgio's emphasis)
15:47:06 <sharper> q+
15:47:21 <sharper> ack markel
15:47:36 <Joshue> thanks vivienne, other abstractions could be expored. I don't know if the driving metaphor is suitable.
15:47:37 <Giorgi> mv: what is objectivity? completion time is pretty objective.
15:48:08 <vconway> I think we need both
15:48:16 <sharper> ack shadi
15:48:16 <Zakim> shadi, you wanted to disagree with "As guidelines conformance does not necessarily entail accessibility in use"
15:48:37 <Giorgi> shadi: responds to markel's question of whether acc in use /acc forconfomance is more important 
15:49:08 <Giorgi> shadi: if we don't comply with guidelines people with disabilities will have pbms in accssing the page
15:49:10 <vconway> I have been comparing my results with that of a user group with good success
15:49:38 <Joshue> shadi, it could be a subset of WCAG?
15:49:46 <markel> right
15:49:48 <Giorgi> shadi: we might be looking to elicit suggstions of how a perfect scoring system could work
15:50:08 <Joshue> or it we could identify the most important 'must haves' for a11y
15:50:31 <Joshue> Structured content, well formedness etc
15:50:31 <Giorgi> shadi: there might be several aspects, propeorties of metrics to consider; eg cost
15:51:38 <sharper> ack me
15:51:45 <Giorgi> zakim,unmute me
15:51:45 <Zakim> Giorgio should no longer be muted
15:52:18 <Giorgi> shadi: sugegsts a webminar for call of proposals
15:52:36 <Giorgi> shadi: maybe setting up a reviewpanel
15:54:26 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/planning#seminar
15:55:23 <Joshue> Yes, thanks I'll read the supporting materials on the wiki
15:55:47 <Giorgi> zakim,mute me
15:55:47 <Zakim> Giorgio should now be muted
15:56:14 <Giorgi> ok, thank you
15:56:29 <Giorgi> sure!
15:56:48 <Giorgi> giorgio: volunteers to be a co-editor
15:57:10 <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
15:57:10 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
15:57:15 <Giorgi> mv: will love helping me!
15:57:15 <Joshue> +q
15:57:29 <Giorgi> zakim, q-
15:57:29 <Zakim> I see Joshue on the speaker queue
15:57:34 <Giorgi> no, i pass
15:57:37 <shadi> ack j
15:57:40 <sharper> ack Giorgi
15:57:59 <Giorgi> joshue: would like to help in asupporting role
15:58:17 <Joshue> I can do peer review etc
15:58:24 <vconway> I'm happy to help in some way, bt I'm a bit of a baby at this
15:58:43 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/process#credits
15:58:47 <Giorgi> vivienne: would also like (and we'd like to have babies!)
15:59:18 <Giorgi> simon: sees editors as program chairs
15:59:37 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:59:37 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:00:55 <Giorgi> simon: we got 2 co-editors MV+GB
16:01:15 <Giorgi> shadi: let's not forget rui and yeliz though
16:02:02 <Giorgi> vivienne: is available for any help she can 
16:02:46 <Giorgi> shadi: anybody who would lik to volunteer shouldcontact shadi or simon
16:03:02 <vconway> huge amount of echo in call
16:03:12 <markel> please turn off the mics!
16:03:30 <Giorgi> ok, thanks shadi. cheers
16:03:32 <Joshue> ok, thanks everyone
16:03:35 <Joshue> bye
16:03:38 <markel> thank you guys!
16:03:38 <vivienne> bye all
16:03:42 <Zakim> -Joshue
16:03:48 <Zakim> -Mate
16:03:48 <Zakim> -Shadi
16:03:49 <Zakim> -Simon
16:04:01 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
16:04:01 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:04:01 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +61.8.920.6.aaaa, Markel, Giorgio, Shadi, Simon, Joshue, vconway, Mate, +89206aabb
16:04:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:04:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-rd-minutes.html trackbot
16:04:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:04:03 <RRSAgent> I see no action items