IRC log of lld on 2011-08-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:55:05 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #lld
13:55:05 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-lld-irc
13:55:15 [antoine]
rrsagent, bookmark
13:55:15 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-lld-irc#T13-55-15
13:55:16 [tbaker]
tbaker has joined #lld
13:55:23 [antoine]
zakim, this will be lld
13:55:23 [Zakim]
ok, antoine, I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM already started
13:55:31 [antoine]
Meeting: LLD XG
13:55:41 [antoine]
Chair: Tom
13:55:59 [antoine]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Aug/0004.html
13:56:24 [antoine]
Regrets: Kim, Lars, Ray, Kevin
13:56:26 [jneubert]
jneubert has joined #lld
13:57:16 [antoine]
Previous: 2011-07-21 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/07/21-lld-minutes.html
13:57:33 [Zakim]
+??P5
13:57:35 [antoine]
rrsagent, please make record public
13:57:49 [tbaker]
zakim, ??p5 is tbaker
13:57:49 [Zakim]
+tbaker; got it
13:58:00 [antoine]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
13:58:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html antoine
13:58:09 [michaelp]
michaelp has joined #lld
13:58:42 [kai]
kai has joined #lld
13:59:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.614.764.aaaa
13:59:41 [jeff_]
jeff_ has joined #lld
13:59:46 [antoine]
zakim, aaaa is michaelp
13:59:46 [Zakim]
+michaelp; got it
13:59:55 [Zakim]
+ +33.1.44.78.aabb
13:59:59 [marcia]
marcia has joined #lld
14:00:02 [emma]
zakim, aabb is me
14:00:02 [Zakim]
+emma; got it
14:00:14 [kcoyle]
kcoyle has joined #lld
14:00:19 [Zakim]
+michaelp.a
14:00:32 [GordonD]
GordonD has joined #lld
14:00:37 [antoine]
zakim, michaelp.a is jeff_
14:00:37 [Zakim]
+jeff_; got it
14:00:46 [monica]
monica has joined #lld
14:00:52 [Zakim]
+??P18
14:01:03 [antoine]
zakim, ??P18 is kcoyle
14:01:03 [Zakim]
+kcoyle; got it
14:01:20 [Zakim]
+??P17
14:01:33 [antoine]
zakim, ??P17 is kei
14:01:34 [kai]
zakim, ??P17 is me.
14:01:39 [antoine]
zakim, kei is kai
14:01:40 [Zakim]
+kei; got it
14:01:43 [tbaker]
zakim, who is making noise?
14:01:45 [Zakim]
I already had ??P17 as kei, kai
14:01:47 [antoine]
zakim, kei is really kai
14:01:50 [Zakim]
+kai; got it
14:02:00 [Zakim]
+ +1.330.672.aacc
14:02:03 [Zakim]
sorry, antoine, I do not recognize a party named 'kei'
14:02:06 [antoine]
zakim, aacc is marcia
14:02:08 [Zakim]
+ +49.4.aadd
14:02:15 [Zakim]
tbaker, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P4 (44%), tbaker (3%), jeff_ (5%), ??P22 (6%)
14:02:15 [jeff_]
zakim, mute me
14:02:16 [antoine]
zakim, aadd is jneubert
14:02:24 [Zakim]
+??P25
14:02:28 [Zakim]
+marcia; got it
14:02:31 [Zakim]
jeff_ should now be muted
14:02:33 [Zakim]
+jneubert; got it
14:02:37 [antoine]
zakim, ??P25 is GordonD
14:02:42 [antoine]
zakim, who is here?
14:02:52 [Zakim]
+GordonD; got it
14:02:59 [Zakim]
+ +44.194.346.aaee
14:03:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P4, tbaker, michaelp (muted), emma, jeff_ (muted), kcoyle, kai, marcia, jneubert, GordonD, +44.194.346.aaee
14:03:25 [monica]
zakim, aaee is me
14:03:26 [antoine]
zakim, ??P4 is me
14:03:38 [Zakim]
-jneubert
14:03:57 [Zakim]
+monica; got it
14:04:00 [Zakim]
+antoine; got it
14:04:17 [Zakim]
+jneubert
14:04:23 [Zakim]
+ +1.763.463.aaff
14:04:24 [jodi]
jodi has joined #LLD
14:04:30 [antoine]
zakim, aaff is jodi
14:04:34 [jneubert]
zakim, mute me
14:04:34 [jodi]
t
14:04:40 [jodi]
thanks. antoine!
14:04:46 [Zakim]
+jodi; got it
14:04:48 [Zakim]
jneubert should now be muted
14:05:01 [tbaker]
zakim, who is here?
14:05:10 [Zakim]
On the phone I see antoine, tbaker, michaelp (muted), emma, jeff_ (muted), kcoyle, kai, marcia, GordonD (muted), monica, jneubert (muted), jodi
14:05:12 [jodi]
means that I'm trying to eat and type at the same time :)
14:06:01 [tbaker]
Scribe: Marcia
14:06:02 [Zakim]
+[LC]
14:06:05 [edsu]
zoia, [LC] is edsu
14:06:06 [tbaker]
scribenick: marcia
14:06:23 [marcia]
Topic: ADMIN
14:06:33 [marcia]
Minutes of previous telecons PROPOSED: To accept
14:06:45 [marcia]
RESOLUTION: approved minutes from last call
14:07:10 [marcia]
Tom: two more tele-cons
14:07:16 [jodi]
which we really need to do! :)
14:07:25 [marcia]
... lots need to be done still
14:07:36 [marcia]
Topic: Comments received
14:08:08 [marcia]
Tom: realized missing the comments from the blog
14:08:13 [marcia]
... created a page
14:08:42 [marcia]
... Links to reviews - including comments on the UKOLN blog - updated from DraftReportReviewerAssignments (Tom)
14:08:48 [marcia]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReportReviews
14:09:02 [marcia]
... any comments?
14:09:38 [marcia]
... summarized comments from various sections. Authors should find useful
14:10:03 [marcia]
ACTION: Editors of each section should watch for substantial comments to their section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/06/30-lld-minutes.html#action06]
14:10:14 [marcia]
CONTINUES
14:10:22 [emma]
q+
14:10:24 [marcia]
ACTION: Daniel to keep track of comments from July 23-July 30 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/07/07-lld-minutes.html#action02]
14:10:29 [marcia]
Done
14:11:07 [emma]
ack me
14:11:15 [marcia]
emma: will continue to monitor through AUg. 11
14:11:43 [antoine]
Regrets+ Uldis
14:11:54 [marcia]
ACTION: Emma to keep track of comments through AUG. 11
14:12:10 [tbaker]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Aug/0003.html
14:12:37 [marcia]
Tom: we had a discussion. two issues
14:13:11 [marcia]
... will come back to the recommendation issues
14:13:42 [marcia]
... looking at the draft of the report as a whole and the comments received, the group felt it might be useful to divise the current draft into two
14:14:18 [marcia]
... first title something like "Benefits of Library Linked Data, with Recommendations"
14:14:31 [marcia]
... 8 pages long
14:15:41 [marcia]
... comments include good ones and also issues. There were complains about the level of report sections assumed decision makers will read the report
14:15:59 [marcia]
... survey-oriented sections should be put into a second document
14:16:25 [marcia]
... such as vocabularies, technolgies. Not try to address high level issues like the first documents
14:17:03 [marcia]
... now there are redundant of vocabularies in both report and side
14:17:14 [marcia]
... the thirs deliverable would be use cases
14:17:20 [antoine]
q+
14:17:25 [marcia]
... open to comments
14:17:48 [edsu]
+1 for splitting it
14:18:00 [marcia]
... regarding spliting
14:18:02 [tbaker]
ack antoine
14:18:53 [marcia]
Antoine: where are these comments that addressing the mixing
14:19:09 [marcia]
Tom: some comments about technical details
14:19:24 [marcia]
Karen: a number of comments said it is not clear of the audiance
14:20:01 [tbaker]
q+
14:20:01 [marcia]
... I agree not necessarily be two documents. but general description should be first, in order not to lose them.
14:20:10 [marcia]
... maybe just rearranging
14:20:24 [edsu]
+1 for rearranging i mean :-)
14:20:24 [emma]
q+ to say that Vocs & data is part of general description
14:20:31 [marcia]
... first part could stand alone. people who are only interested in that could just read that.
14:21:00 [tbaker]
q-
14:21:17 [jeff_]
Could the techie bits be left in place, but flagged somehow?
14:21:26 [marcia]
Antoine: the higher level recommendation should still in the main doc.
14:21:40 [edsu]
jeff_: kind of like spicy things on a menu? :-)
14:21:54 [jeff_]
edsu: exactly!
14:22:00 [GordonD]
All recommendations (general and technical) should be in the recommendations section.
14:22:03 [marcia]
Karen: the first section now is very general. 2nd section go into how you do it.
14:22:33 [marcia]
Antoine: data and technology side both have also general contents
14:22:56 [michaelp]
Donal Knuth in the TeX docs uses a "sharp bend"/dangerous curve icon to flag those technical parts.
14:23:08 [tbaker]
ack emma
14:23:08 [Zakim]
emma, you wanted to say that Vocs & data is part of general description
14:23:09 [marcia]
Karen: right now vocabulary inserted in between, it does not seem right. Afraid losing readers
14:23:58 [marcia]
Emma: data description need to be there to show we are not talking from zero. Having descriptions inside of the main report will be useful.
14:24:20 [tbaker]
q+ to suggest that we have Part A and B
14:24:29 [marcia]
... should keep them in the same doc. re-arrange a little bit
14:24:51 [tbaker]
ack tbaker
14:24:51 [Zakim]
tbaker, you wanted to suggest that we have Part A and B
14:25:05 [marcia]
Tom: suggest to have a Part A and Part B.
14:25:28 [marcia]
... Make sense to make some into tight exc. summary
14:25:51 [marcia]
... If more challange, can be referred to Part B, e.g., technologies
14:26:27 [marcia]
... Voc and Dataset already have description and a detail... can almost go to appendix
14:26:41 [kcoyle]
q+
14:26:41 [jodi]
I don't think that additional documents is really additional overhead
14:26:47 [tbaker]
ack kcoyle
14:27:04 [marcia]
Karen: we can clarify them if we have real good titles
14:27:05 [monica]
monica has joined #lld
14:27:12 [marcia]
Tom: agree with Karen
14:27:24 [marcia]
Karen: 1 section we set up theme
14:27:49 [marcia]
... 2nd: talking about tools that are available, progress already been made.
14:28:05 [marcia]
... folks look at TOC can see the flow
14:28:13 [antoine]
q+
14:28:17 [tbaker]
ack antoine
14:28:46 [marcia]
Antoine: current situation is already out there
14:29:04 [emma]
+1, antoine
14:29:06 [marcia]
... in the current issue section
14:29:09 [tbaker]
ack emma
14:29:37 [marcia]
Tom: Imply what we have the structure right now
14:30:05 [marcia]
Antoine: maybe the data section just give methodologies through examples
14:30:14 [jodi]
q+
14:30:40 [marcia]
Emma: the technology may not so fit at the place
14:30:49 [tbaker]
q+
14:30:54 [tbaker]
ack jodi
14:32:01 [marcia]
Jodi: Like Tom's proposal. There must be someway to convey them to read the technology without including the details in the main report.
14:32:10 [tbaker]
ack tbaker
14:32:15 [marcia]
... should be as short as possible and as general as possible
14:32:37 [jodi]
yes
14:33:04 [marcia]
Tom: we were planning to have vocabulary as side deliverable.
14:33:11 [antoine]
q+ on relevant technologies
14:33:47 [marcia]
... take the draft vocab/data section, keep in Deliverable A. Move technology to B.
14:34:09 [marcia]
... technology details of vocabulary and dataset go into B.
14:34:12 [tbaker]
ack antoine
14:34:12 [Zakim]
antoine, you wanted to comment on relevant technologies
14:34:19 [marcia]
Antoine: maybe workable
14:34:22 [antoine]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Vocabularies_Datasets_Section
14:35:29 [marcia]
... maybe keep basic descriptions in the report
14:35:45 [marcia]
Tom: that makes sense
14:36:19 [marcia]
... there are complains about the typology of dataset, element set, and value vocabularies, but no better way now
14:36:32 [GordonD]
+1 for a short, general description of current state of available library vocabularies (most acronmys will be familiar to library executives) in part a, referring to the fuller separate deliverable
14:36:50 [antoine]
q+
14:36:55 [kcoyle]
I think placement is important; are we still keeping benefits, issues and recommendations together?
14:37:00 [marcia]
... in the main report keep this section.
14:37:26 [marcia]
... just afraid of general readers would not follow
14:37:55 [marcia]
... looks like we are coming to an agreement of how to structure.
14:37:58 [tbaker]
ack antoine
14:37:59 [kcoyle]
q+ to ask about transclusion
14:38:27 [marcia]
Antoine: agree to to put technology into a different deliverable
14:39:01 [marcia]
s/deliverable/deliverable/
14:39:02 [GordonD]
+1 benefits, current situation and issues (including vocabularies), recommendations in first part
14:39:08 [jodi]
+1 to making it concrete
14:39:10 [antoine]
s/agree to/disagree with
14:39:27 [jodi]
if you make me a list of what you want, I can do the transclusion -- it's easy enough
14:39:36 [jodi]
or what tom says :)
14:39:38 [marcia]
Tom: maybe make al alternative transclusion and see how it looks like
14:40:04 [antoine]
it's just a matter of changing the order of the current transclusion, I think :-)
14:40:05 [marcia]
ACTION: Jodi to make an alternative transclusion
14:40:35 [marcia]
Tom: asking Karen to work with Jodi
14:40:43 [marcia]
Karen: happy to do it.
14:41:08 [jodi]
great, Karen: the list of pages will be very easy to edit into a transclusion page :)
14:41:13 [marcia]
ACTION: Karen, Tom, Michael, and Gordon to write the executive summary due in two weeks. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/07/21-lld-minutes.html#action05]
14:41:20 [marcia]
CONTINUES
14:41:31 [marcia]
ACTION: Karen and Emma to write a sentence adding cultural and memory institutions together in some way [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-lld-minutes.html#action03]
14:41:57 [marcia]
Karen: the note is in there.
14:42:10 [marcia]
CONTINUES
14:42:28 [marcia]
BENEFITS OF LINKED DATA (Ed, Emmanuelle, Ross) -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Benefits
14:43:28 [marcia]
Emma: worked on the comments from Dickson. We may need a meeting between me and ED
14:44:00 [marcia]
... suggest to have an action
14:44:15 [edsu]
emma++
14:44:29 [marcia]
ACTION: Editors of BENEFITS to meet and work on the comments.
14:44:40 [marcia]
AVAILABLE VOCABULARIES AND DATASETS (Antoine, Jeff, Marcia, William) -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Vocabularies_Datasets_Section
14:44:59 [marcia]
Antoine: we can manage them. There are manageable comments
14:45:01 [jeff_]
zakim, unmute me
14:45:01 [Zakim]
jeff_ should no longer be muted
14:45:09 [marcia]
RELEVANT TECHNOLOGIES (Jeff) -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Relevant_Technologies
14:45:40 [marcia]
Jeff: will keep working on them.
14:46:25 [marcia]
CONTINUES
14:46:28 [jeff_]
zakim, mute me
14:46:31 [Zakim]
jeff_ should now be muted
14:46:56 [marcia]
IMPLEMENTATION CHALLENGES AND BARRIERS TO ADOPTION
14:48:04 [marcia]
Karen:challenges and barriers... got lots of comments. We got pushed back to the recommendations
14:48:12 [marcia]
some are beyond our scope.
14:48:26 [marcia]
... should keep in library linked data
14:48:41 [tbaker]
q?
14:48:45 [tbaker]
ack kcoyle
14:48:45 [Zakim]
kcoyle, you wanted to ask about transclusion
14:48:49 [marcia]
... removed a lot of how things should be done. Focused on what should be done
14:49:20 [marcia]
... regarding library systems
14:49:46 [marcia]
... assigining URIs, deciding what data go out first, etc.
14:50:28 [jodi]
adding metadata education
14:50:29 [marcia]
... removed things like staffing
14:50:42 [jodi]
(I mean, "adding metadata education" was removed)
14:51:10 [marcia]
... removed some statements.
14:51:14 [jodi]
<-- from recommendations
14:51:37 [emma]
q+ to ask how to handle removed items that need to go into benefits
14:51:50 [jodi]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_issues_page_take2
14:51:59 [jodi]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_recommendations_page_take2
14:52:03 [marcia]
... staffing, transfering the data, assignment of URI, etc.
14:52:03 [tbaker]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/index.php?title=Draft_issues_page_take2&diff=5537&oldid=5374
14:52:18 [marcia]
now it is more positive
14:52:36 [marcia]
Tom: the draft is in the new page
14:52:39 [tbaker]
ack emma
14:52:39 [Zakim]
emma, you wanted to ask how to handle removed items that need to go into benefits
14:52:59 [marcia]
Emma: did you track the changes?
14:53:12 [marcia]
Karen: we can go back to the notes
14:54:03 [antoine]
pls send stuff around too!
14:54:15 [antoine]
(like the list of stuff to consider for benefits)
14:54:28 [marcia]
ACTION: Karen will recover the statements removed from the changed section of benefits.
14:55:17 [antoine]
q+ to have a call next week
14:55:20 [marcia]
Tom: will need to work on these in the next weeks.
14:55:25 [tbaker]
ack antoine
14:55:25 [Zakim]
antoine, you wanted to have a call next week
14:55:37 [jodi]
+1 to a call next week
14:55:38 [marcia]
... welcome suggestions of how to do things differently
14:55:52 [kcoyle]
+1 call next week
14:55:55 [jeff_]
+1
14:55:57 [jodi]
(however I will be gone myself)
14:55:58 [emma]
s/recover the statements removed from the changed section of benefits./track items from former "issues" and "recommendations" that belong to benefits
14:55:58 [GordonD]
regrets for next week, and week after
14:56:13 [marcia]
TOM: will have conference next week
14:56:35 [marcia]
USE CASES (Daniel) - SEPARATE DELIVERABLE
14:56:49 [Zakim]
-jeff_
14:56:53 [jeff_]
jeff_ has left #lld
14:57:24 [marcia]
Karen: maybe just add some words in the Exc. summary regarding the use cases, mention them and say something about them.
14:57:57 [marcia]
Topic: TRANSITION TO W3C COMMUNITY GROUP
14:58:18 [marcia]
Tom: mentioned: 2011-05-12: Should inform W3C of intent to transition by 1 August for transition on 1 September (and cancel Zakim slot).
14:58:32 [emma]
we did have discussion on 2001-06-30
14:58:36 [marcia]
... right now no clear indication of actions
14:58:41 [emma]
s/2001/2011
14:59:06 [marcia]
... at the moment, the situation is that there is no replacement of this group.
14:59:11 [emma]
q+
14:59:31 [tbaker]
ack emma
14:59:49 [kcoyle]
could we form a "transition group?"
14:59:56 [kai]
Have to leave, too. Bye!
14:59:59 [kcoyle]
with no long term obligation
15:00:01 [edsu]
emma++ # public discussion
15:00:02 [marcia]
Emma: will put on list
15:00:04 [antoine]
+1
15:00:06 [jodi]
+1 to public list discussion
15:00:09 [Zakim]
-kai
15:00:21 [jodi]
that sounds like kcoyle is volunteering to help make sure it happens, but only with others :)
15:00:48 [antoine]
the list will survive, anyway!
15:00:56 [antoine]
q+
15:01:01 [marcia]
Karen: the small group of people who are willing to work through emails
15:01:06 [tbaker]
ack antoine
15:01:43 [marcia]
AOB
15:01:45 [jodi]
bye!
15:01:47 [Zakim]
-[LC]
15:01:51 [Zakim]
-michaelp
15:01:52 [antoine]
zakim, please list attendees
15:01:53 [jneubert]
bye
15:01:55 [Zakim]
-monica
15:02:09 [Zakim]
-kcoyle
15:02:11 [Zakim]
-jodi
15:02:12 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:02:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html emma
15:02:13 [Zakim]
-GordonD
15:02:17 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been tbaker, +1.614.764.aaaa, michaelp, +33.1.44.78.aabb, emma, jeff_, kcoyle, kai, +1.330.672.aacc, +49.4.aadd, marcia, jneubert, GordonD,
15:02:24 [Zakim]
... +44.194.346.aaee, monica, antoine, +1.763.463.aaff, jodi, [LC]
15:02:44 [antoine]
zakim, LC is edsu
15:03:10 [Zakim]
sorry, antoine, I do not recognize a party named 'LC'
15:03:17 [antoine]
zakim, [LC] is edsu
15:03:36 [michaelp]
michaelp has left #lld
15:03:39 [antoine]
zakim, please list attendees
15:03:44 [Zakim]
sorry, antoine, I do not recognize a party named '[LC]'
15:04:12 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been tbaker, +1.614.764.aaaa, michaelp, +33.1.44.78.aabb, emma, jeff_, kcoyle, kai, +1.330.672.aacc, +49.4.aadd, marcia, jneubert, GordonD,
15:04:15 [antoine]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:04:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html antoine
15:04:17 [Zakim]
... +44.194.346.aaee, monica, antoine, +1.763.463.aaff, jodi, [LC]
15:04:40 [antoine]
Present+ edsu
15:04:46 [antoine]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:04:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html antoine
15:05:01 [Zakim]
-jneubert
15:07:04 [Zakim]
-marcia
15:08:43 [Zakim]
-emma
15:08:44 [Zakim]
-antoine
15:08:59 [Zakim]
-tbaker
15:09:01 [Zakim]
INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has ended
15:09:03 [Zakim]
Attendees were tbaker, +1.614.764.aaaa, michaelp, +33.1.44.78.aabb, emma, jeff_, kcoyle, kai, +1.330.672.aacc, +49.4.aadd, marcia, jneubert, GordonD, +44.194.346.aaee, monica,
15:09:06 [Zakim]
... antoine, +1.763.463.aaff, jodi, [LC]
15:24:07 [jodi]
jodi has joined #LLD
16:30:22 [danbri]
danbri has joined #lld
17:06:50 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #lld
18:21:55 [jodi]
jodi has left #LLD
18:54:34 [danbri]
danbri has joined #lld
20:09:14 [danbri]
danbri has joined #lld