IRC log of fx on 2011-07-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:00:56 [nimbu]
dino: the most dangerous difference is smthing like transform scale(2) and expect it to apply to a bunch of elms some of which are svg and html.
00:01:04 [nimbu]
heycam: hows origin resolved?
00:01:16 [nimbu]
ed: i think svg elements it was moved to smthing else.
00:01:25 [nimbu]
anne: svg elms can have different origin specified
00:01:32 [nimbu]
heycam: are u saying it could be confusing?
00:01:34 [nimbu]
dino: yeah
00:01:44 [nimbu]
anne: svg has diff co-ordinate model than css anyway
00:01:58 [nimbu]
ed: we can specify same co-ordinate model as svg.
00:02:56 [nimbu]
dino: next step is to find someone who wants to do it.
00:03:08 [nimbu]
heycam: i have to look at transforms stuff and look at impact to svg
00:03:22 [nimbu]
vhardy: i am willing to help.
00:03:36 [dbaron]
Sounds like there are at least some :hover editors :-)
00:04:26 [nimbu]
dino: i am oaky if you(vhardy) took it over
00:04:43 [nimbu]
vhardy: heycam has a bunch of items that anthony had.
00:05:05 [nimbu]
smfr: i am willing to edit some of the 3d parts
00:05:20 [nimbu]
vhardy: i am not ready to do it just by myself.
00:05:31 [nimbu]
dino: the stuff that needs to be done is the difficult part.
00:06:07 [nimbu]
vhardy: i like someone to work with me on editing an wording the svg stuff
00:06:16 [tpod_]
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00:06:33 [nimbu]
smfr: i would like other implementors to start filing issues
00:06:36 [ed]
s/we can specify same co-ordinate model as svg./you can specify transform-origin:50%,50% explicitly for svg to get the same origin as for other elements/
00:06:42 [nimbu]
dbaron: whats the tracking mechanism?
00:06:54 [nimbu]
vhardy: we have a wiki page.
00:07:06 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_2011/Agenda/FXTransforms
00:07:13 [nimbu]
smfr: wiki is fine.
00:07:48 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/FX-Taskforce/2DTransformsToDoList
00:08:41 [nimbu]
vhardy: we agree to do one spec and call it 'css transforms'?
00:08:52 [nimbu]
smfr: there is confusion with xslt transform
00:08:59 [nimbu]
smfr: so we need a prefix
00:10:00 [nimbu]
RESOLVED: The CSS 2d, 3d, SVG 2d and 3d, FX transforms spec are going to be combined into one CSS Transforms spec.
00:10:45 [nimbu]
ACTION: vhardy to work with heycam dino smfr to work on the new spec for CSS Transforms.
00:10:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-52 - Work with heycam dino smfr to work on the new spec for CSS Transforms. [on Vincent Hardy - due 2011-08-03].
00:11:04 [nimbu]
dbaron: i have mixed feelings, as 2d is more stable than 3d.
00:11:20 [nimbu]
dbaron: last TPAC we had a resolution to get css 2d get to CR more quickly
00:11:50 [nimbu]
dino: boris, dbaron and sylvaing had comments on css 2d
00:12:24 [nimbu]
vhardy: i will work with you smfr dino to figure out what would be the best base to start from.
00:12:45 [nimbu]
dbaron: we can still advance the current specification
00:12:53 [nimbu]
florian: so combined spec becomes css 4
00:13:39 [dbaron]
dbaron: I think we should keep the option open to advance 2-D, but I'm ok with going ahead with this approach.
00:14:17 [nimbu]
dino: it is just interesting that we have a spec that could possibly enter cr and we are not progressing it.
00:14:23 [nimbu]
shepazu: do we have tests for it?
00:14:30 [nimbu]
smfr: we have some test cases that are being worked on
00:14:51 [nimbu]
shepazu: if people want to push css2d before css2d and 3d go for it.
00:14:55 [nimbu]
heycam: i dont think its a problem
00:15:08 [nimbu]
heycam: its only a problem if we need to make changes to css2d spec.
00:16:15 [nimbu]
heycam: i dont see how spec organization impacts 3d.
00:16:31 [nimbu]
smfr: how do u ship a browser that supports prefixed or unprefixed.
00:16:39 [nimbu]
heycam: thats a q regardless of whether they are in same spec or not
00:16:57 [nimbu]
smfr: if in same spec u can drop prefixes at once.
00:17:08 [nimbu]
heycam: is that the convention?
00:17:21 [nimbu]
smfr: yeah one module yeah.
00:17:55 [nimbu]
shepazu: having a 2d spec does not resolve the issue
00:17:58 [nimbu]
smfr: thats true.
00:18:21 [nimbu]
heycam: is the convention to drop prefix once we get to CR?
00:18:31 [nimbu]
dbaron: convention is to drop prefix once u go to CR and get the test suite
00:18:47 [nimbu]
shepazu: we have no problems with anyone pushing 2D stuff, even putting it into CR.
00:19:03 [nimbu]
smfr: i think thats fine. we will figure out how to deal with prefix issue when it comes up.
00:20:54 [nimbu]
smfr: the combined spec is a good thing in long term, if we decide we want to we can accelerate the 2d spec separately and we will figure out internally issues related to dropping the prefix smhow.
00:23:11 [nimbu]
vhardy: we could have a draft by TPAC for transforms
00:23:23 [nimbu]
ed: for filters how long it would take?
00:23:29 [nimbu]
dino: i can have it done by the week.
00:23:40 [ed]
topic: publishing schedule
00:23:48 [nimbu]
dino: everyone has agreed we can publish it as first WD
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00:26:05 [nimbu]
vhardy: discuss on friday how much progress we can make w.r.t compositing
00:26:28 [nimbu]
cabanier: how 3d transforms work with compositing and filters. as compositing assumes 2D.
00:26:47 [nimbu]
dino: we do specify some form of flattening in the 3D spec. it is a bit of mlack magic at this moment.
00:26:54 [nimbu]
vhardy: can u discuss this smtime tomorrow?
00:27:47 [nimbu]
ed: thats all on the agenda i could squeeze a bit about the testing
00:28:06 [nimbu]
ed: plinss currently the svg test suite is not using the test harness, it could be useful.
00:28:20 [plinss_]
test.csswg.org/harness
00:28:40 [ed]
topic: testing harness overview
00:28:57 [bradk]
I have to take off. I wish all travelers a bon voyage.
00:29:01 [nimbu]
plinss: it presents all the test in a test suite
00:29:04 [bradk]
bye!
00:29:16 [nimbu]
plinss: it computes what order …
00:29:36 [nimbu]
plinss: there are metadata embedded in the test which links back to the url.
00:29:50 [nimbu]
plinss: presents your test in an iframe,. test can be multiple formats in a tabbed interface.
00:30:04 [nimbu]
plinss: upper right hand corner you have current results known by rendering engine
00:30:16 [nimbu]
plinss: it is doing manual testing visual.
00:30:36 [nimbu]
plinss: it has a bunch of reporting system.
00:30:52 [nimbu]
plinss: shows detailed results gathered thro that particular tests, user agent.
00:31:23 [nimbu]
plinss: full flushed out test file.
00:31:32 [nimbu]
you can also see results by portions of the spec.
00:32:04 [plinss_]
http://test.csswg.org/annotations/css21/
00:32:15 [nimbu]
plinss: there is a spec annotation system
00:33:25 [nimbu]
plinss: tests show up for each section
00:33:32 [nimbu]
plinss: it injects that annotation mark.
00:34:07 [nimbu]
plinss: annotations link back to the harness
00:34:32 [nimbu]
plinss: the title for each annotation takes u to the test itself.
00:34:43 [nimbu]
shepazu: how do u put this into the spec?
00:34:47 [nimbu]
plinss: 1 line of script
00:35:20 [nimbu]
alan: how does it display if a section does not have tests? maybe it should display red.
00:35:28 [nimbu]
plinss: not every section needs tests
00:36:42 [nimbu]
plinss: there are some features that are exposed in the ui, you can enter another UA string.
00:37:25 [nimbu]
plinss: I run a cron that takes all the results and figures out where tests are needed most to get to CR
00:38:30 [nimbu]
plinss: there is an instance of this running on 23c server
00:38:34 [nimbu]
plinss: its all open source.
00:39:10 [nimbu]
shepazu: so in svg i cant tell can u do side by side comparisons?
00:39:19 [plinss_]
http://test.csswg.org/harness/test/CSS21_DEV/flag/reftest/
00:39:54 [florian]
s/i/I/
00:40:06 [nimbu]
plinss: you can do back and forth side by side.
00:40:17 [florian]
s/cant/can't
00:40:24 [florian]
s/u/you/
00:40:28 [nimbu]
plinss: can specify it must look like this page, AND this page and NOT like this page.
00:40:41 [nimbu]
plinss: the reference can be plain reference file or another test.
00:40:49 [nimbu]
shepazu: can we resolve to move to this in SVG 2?
00:41:40 [nimbu]
ed: i am most interested is the ability for sections to have their own tests
00:42:07 [nimbu]
shepazu: even if u dont do tests in this harness you can post reports.
00:42:29 [ed]
s/ ability for sections to have their own tests/ ability to see the test+results in each spec sections/
00:42:53 [nimbu]
plinss: i believe mozilla and webkit have their own systems to run automated tests and they can export it to the harness.
00:43:22 [miketaylr]
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00:44:01 [plinss_]
http://w3c-test.org/framework/
00:46:07 [nimbu]
TabAtkins: mainly for csswg, could people respond to thread of background-print property
00:46:12 [TabAtkins_]
>
00:46:12 [TabAtkins_]
> --
00:46:12 [TabAtkins_]
> Joshua Ganderson | Front End Software Engineer | jganderson@google.com | 512.627.1539
00:46:20 [plinss_]
http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/nightly-unstable/report/
00:46:33 [TabAtkins_]
>
00:46:33 [TabAtkins_]
> --
00:46:33 [TabAtkins_]
> Joshua Ganderson | Front End Software Engineer | jganderson@google.com | 512.627.1539
00:46:38 [TabAtkins_]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jul/0341.html
00:49:25 [nimbu]
TabAtkins: soln suggested by glazou to have authors override default UA stylesheets is not feasible as browsers do not want authors to override UA styles
00:50:41 [anne]
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00:51:15 [nimbu]
plinss: i have no problem to override it, the default needs to be auto. we need smthing in css when user pref is auto.
00:51:38 [nimbu]
glazou: in your opinion auto is do not print bg until the author says print background
00:51:55 [nimbu]
plinss: there is no way to change default.
00:52:05 [nimbu]
TabAtkins: background-print is just an element property.
00:54:08 [nimbu]
ed: adjourned.
00:54:37 [stearns]
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00:56:02 [tantek]
safe travels everyone
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