IRC log of tagmem on 2011-07-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:00:12 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
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logging to
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RRSAgent, make logs public
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Zakim, this will be TAG
17:00:16 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM scheduled to start now
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Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference
17:00:17 [trackbot]
Date: 21 July 2011
17:01:06 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started
17:01:11 [Zakim]
17:01:12 [ht]
zakim, code?
17:01:13 [Zakim]
the conference code is 0824 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, ht
17:01:14 [Zakim]
17:01:21 [JeniT]
Zakim, who's here?
17:01:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P2, Masinter
17:01:23 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, JeniT, ht, Larry, Norm, plinss, DKA, jar, Yves, trackbot
17:01:23 [Zakim]
17:01:26 [JeniT]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
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+JeniT; got it
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+ +1.858.216.aaaa
17:01:29 [ht]
zakim, ??P1 is me
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+ht; got it
17:01:37 [plinss]
zakim, aaaa is me
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+plinss; got it
17:02:57 [ht]
zakim, who is on the call?
17:02:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see JeniT, Masinter, ht, plinss
17:03:13 [Ashok]
Ashok has joined #tagmem
17:03:23 [Zakim]
17:03:45 [Zakim]
17:05:15 [Larry]
scribenick: Larry
17:05:18 [Larry]
scribe: Larry Masinter
17:05:50 [Larry]
17:05:54 [Larry]
chair: JeniT
17:06:00 [JeniT]
Zakim, who's here?
17:06:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see JeniT, Masinter, ht, plinss, Yves, Ashok_Malhotra
17:06:01 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Ashok, RRSAgent, Zakim, JeniT, ht, Larry, Norm, plinss, DKA, jar, Yves, trackbot
17:08:05 [Larry]
topic: approval of minutes 7/14
17:08:30 [Larry]
Larry & Jeni point out a couple of places in the minutes where it isn't clear who is talking -- probably scribe speaking as self
17:08:40 [Larry]
Topic: administrative items
17:08:45 [Larry]
reminder register for TPAC
17:08:50 [Larry]
next call August 4
17:09:01 [Larry]
s/reminder/JeniT: reminder/
17:09:09 [Larry]
s/next/JeniT: next/
17:09:19 [Larry]
jeniT: any other regrets
17:09:34 [Larry]
JeniT: Henry will put together local arrangement page
17:09:54 [Larry]
. action: Henry to put together local arrangements page
17:09:55 [Larry]
17:10:24 [Larry]
larry: might not make 4 august
17:10:28 [JeniT]
I won't make 4 August
17:11:11 [Larry]
topic: 5. Microdata/RDFa Relationship
17:11:44 [Larry]
JeniT: we sent a comment, they made two bugs, one on Microdata and one on RDFa, and the bug on microdata was closed
17:12:20 [Larry]
JeniT: JeniT said she thought closing the bug was 'fine' and that it the task force would submit bugs
17:12:39 [JeniT]
17:12:53 [Larry]
JeniT: (recapping events in HTML and TAG)
17:14:09 [Larry]
JeniT: I agree that the recommendation to not do anything now but wait for the task force is the right decision
17:14:20 [Larry]
Henry: What you said didn't jive with what I read
17:15:06 [Larry]
Henry: My understanding was that if we didn't raise an issue we wouldn't have a chance to see any changes to the "next version"
17:15:49 [Larry]
JeniT: *IF* we raise an issue, and then nothing happened, then it would be put off to the next version
17:16:00 [Larry]
Henry: if we do nothing we get an option at last call review
17:16:16 [Larry]
yves: it is more of the role of the task force to raise issues and proposals
17:16:19 [Zakim]
17:16:51 [Zakim]
17:17:02 [Larry]
Larry: I think this is nonsense
17:19:17 [Larry]
Larry: our comments remain whether or not there is a task force, whether or not the task force is sabotaged or people refuse to participate, the comment still remains
17:20:52 [jar_]
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+ +1.650.294.aabb
17:22:33 [jar_]
zakim, aabb is jar
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+jar; got it
17:23:08 [Larry]
Larry: they're not actually responding to our comments, they give us some funny process with change proposals and schedules, but we've not gotten a response to our actual technical comment
17:23:31 [Larry]
jenit: if we push back now we are in a worse position
17:24:16 [Larry]
larry: we had a technical comment, we should get a technical response to our technical comment
17:24:47 [Larry]
ht: we hope that the task force is going to be the source of resolution to the issue
17:25:53 [Larry]
larry: we're getting a "we won't respond to your comment unless the task force succeeds"
17:25:53 [DKA]
Hi I am here
17:25:59 [DKA]
I am joining shortly
17:26:08 [DKA]
My most profuse apologies about this.
17:26:13 [Larry]
larry: I think they should respond to our technical comment, or promise to respond at some later day
17:26:41 [JeniT]
17:27:03 [Larry]
for example, they could leave the bugs open pending the task force resolution
17:27:56 [Larry]
the bugs could actually be addressed now, without the task force
17:28:56 [Larry]
(discussion of alternatives)
17:29:32 [Larry]
ht: highight paragraphs and say we expect to re-open these bugs
17:29:47 [Larry]
larry: that isn't sufficient for me. I'd like the bugs to be visible during last call review as open
17:29:58 [Zakim]
+ +44.55.aacc
17:30:13 [DKA]
zakim, aacc is me
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+DKA; got it
17:30:37 [jar_]
rrsagent, pointer?
17:30:37 [RRSAgent]
17:30:40 [Larry]
larry: I would like the bugs to remain open while the task force is deliberating, to have them show as open rather than closed. Closing the bugs is misleading.
17:31:17 [Larry]
ht: Noah could reply to HTML chairs that we'd like them to keep the bugs open
17:31:30 [Larry]
ht: will draft something and post it into IRC later
17:32:32 [Larry]
larry: the task force is just us trying to be helpful, but it's their responsibility to address the issues
17:33:39 [Larry]
jar: who's responsibility is the formation of the task force?
17:34:11 [Larry]
((discussion of task force))
17:34:15 [Larry]
chair: DKA
17:35:33 [DKA]
Topic: HTML/XML Task Force
17:35:49 [DKA]
Larry: some push-back on scope from the task force members… Worth talking about.
17:36:48 [DKA]
Larry: 2 incompatible things. What are the workflows that start off with one and end with another, the real difficulties...
17:37:04 [DKA]
Larry: My expectation is that the task force report would summarise what the issues were.
17:37:25 [DKA]
Larry: And explain why things are different and explore some of the possibilities of changing one or the other to make things better.
17:38:02 [DKA]
Larry: Normalizing to upper case could improve compatibility.
17:40:11 [Larry]
dka: it seemed to me that the report was pretty dismissive about the impact of polyglot, but my interpretation of when polyglot was useful was in systems that would be used by orgaizations where they would have the need to round trip HTML
17:40:26 [Larry]
dka: the one sentence about 'limited applicability' seemed overly dismissive
17:41:11 [Larry]
dka: it did seem like the report reinforced the idea that "you can't fix this problem"...... where do we take things from there?
17:42:09 [DKA]
Larry: I conjecture we should ask the task force to be more explicit, expand their report significantly… Verify that their charter is broader.
17:43:40 [DKA]
Jeni: should they produce a more detailed review of the differences between HTML and XML?
17:45:42 [jar_]
17:45:42 [trackbot]
ISSUE-67 -- HTML and XML Divergence -- open
17:45:42 [trackbot]
17:46:31 [Larry]
Larry: there was a thread on www-tag about "Revised HTML/XML Task Force Report"
17:47:03 [jar_]
17:47:03 [trackbot]
ACTION-437 -- Tim Berners-Lee to create a task force on XML / HTML convergence -- due 2011-06-01 -- CLOSED
17:47:03 [trackbot]
17:47:24 [DKA]
Dan: I can write some text to the tag mailing list about the place of polyglot (as a suggested input to the document) - it should be grounded in what our original call to the HTML working group about polyglot.
17:49:46 [DKA]
Dan: How can we communicate some of these ideas? Does it make sense to ask Norm to participate in the next TAG call?
17:49:51 [DKA]
JAR: I was thinking the same thing.
17:50:27 [DKA]
. ACTION: Dan to ask Norm to participate in next TAG call regarding clarifying what the TAG wants out of the task force.
17:51:30 [DKA]
ACTION: Dan to ask Norm to participate in next TAG call regarding clarifying what the TAG wants out of the task force.
17:51:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-584 - Ask Norm to participate in next TAG call regarding clarifying what the TAG wants out of the task force. [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2011-07-28].
17:51:38 [Larry]
larry: i wrote on this thread what *I* would like to see, but do other TAG members agree they want those, or are these just me
17:52:07 [Larry]
17:52:11 [DKA]
Dan: also we will discuss on the mailing list the points Larry has raised and use this as a agenda for our discussion with Norm on the 4th (assuming he can make it).
17:52:22 [JeniT]
17:52:30 [Larry]
Larry, quoting: Maybe I'm asking too much, but I was hoping that the report from a task force set up to work through xml-html convergence issues might give a better idea of how serious the problems with various approaches might be, to help inform decisions. Html pages that cannot be made polyglot..... are they rare? Common? Only happens with pages that also have significant problems in ogher ways?
17:53:10 [DKA]
Topic: Proposed workshop on Future of (offline) Web Applications
17:54:51 [Ashok]
17:55:35 [DKA]
ack ashok
17:56:11 [Larry]
dka: scope of workshop to include "web apps" and "offline operation" not just local storage
17:56:15 [jar_]
web app = 'runs in the browser' ?
17:58:26 [Larry]
dka: ((list of web application approaches .... implementation feedback from deployment of appcache that 'this isn't exactly what we need'))
18:01:39 [DKA]
Topic: HTML5 Review
18:01:42 [DKA]
18:01:42 [trackbot]
ACTION-341 -- Yves Lafon to follow up with Thomas about security review activities for HTML5 -- due 2011-05-10 -- OPEN
18:01:42 [trackbot]
18:02:15 [DKA]
Yves: scheduled for Saturday
18:02:28 [Larry]
q+ to bring up IETF issues
18:02:43 [ht]
q+ to show a draft of email to Noah for Paul Cotton
18:03:12 [DKA]
18:03:12 [trackbot]
ACTION-350 -- Henry Thompson to revise based on feedback on www-tag and the feedback from TAG f2f 2009-12-09 discussion -- due 2011-08-10 -- OPEN
18:03:12 [trackbot]
18:04:24 [DKA]
18:04:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-404 -- Yves Lafon to track HTML WG ISSUE-27 rel-ownership -- due 2011-04-26 -- OPEN
18:04:24 [trackbot]
18:05:13 [Larry]
larry: rel-ownership is related to IETF and IANA issues
18:06:12 [JeniT]
18:06:15 [DKA]
Topic: Impending IETF Meeting
18:06:54 [DKA]
ack ht
18:06:54 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to show a draft of email to Noah for Paul Cotton
18:07:28 [DKA]
Topic: email to Noah for Paul Cotton
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18:12:56 [Larry]
henry: will post proposed draft momentarily
18:13:25 [ht]
Thanks for clarifying the process options.
18:13:25 [ht]
The TAG is not quite clear how to proceed. Your final paragraph
18:13:25 [ht]
("Since the TAG's plan appears to be to create a task force...")
18:13:25 [ht]
comes close to what we would like, in that it makes clear that as
18:13:25 [ht]
and when the task force reports one or more Issues can be created
18:13:25 [ht]
against bugs 13100 and 13101 [1], [2]. But from our perspective we
18:13:27 [ht]
would be happier if the Status of these bugs were such that they
18:13:30 [ht]
showed up in searches of Open bugs during the life of the proposed
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task force.
18:13:33 [ht]
In particular, it appears that if we don't want 13100 to be Closed
18:13:35 [ht]
officially on 1 August, we have to either escalate (not appropriate
18:13:37 [ht]
at this point) or reopen (not appropriate at this point). Could you
18:13:39 [ht]
please arrange for the bugs to just remain unclosed until, based on
18:13:42 [ht]
the task force outcome, the TAG either reopens it, escalates, or
18:13:43 [ht]
accepts the _status quo_ and closes it? Fullscale closure seems
18:13:43 [Larry]
Larry: the 'bug' with each spec is that it seems incompatible with the other and doesn't seem to address why or how to minimize the impact
18:13:45 [ht]
misleading as long as a task force is actively pursuing the
18:13:48 [ht]
matter. . .
18:13:50 [ht]
18:13:50 [DKA]
.RESOLVED send the above to Noah to send to Paul from the TAG.
18:13:51 [ht]
18:13:59 [Larry]
18:14:09 [Larry]
s/yes/Larry: yes
18:14:12 [DKA]
RESOLUTION Send the above to Noah to send to Paul from the TAG.
18:14:35 [JeniT]
18:14:48 [Larry]
18:14:58 [DKA]
Topic: IETF Meeting
18:15:17 [DKA]
Larry: we have a product on MIME...
18:15:48 [DKA]
Larry: if we want changes to MIME itself then we need to work with IETF - a tag finding isn't enough.
18:16:12 [jar_]
18:16:17 [DKA]
Larry: I wrote an Internet draft Mime on the Web. We need to review that document.
18:16:36 [JeniT]
18:16:41 [Larry]
we need to review the Freed document
18:16:50 [Larry]
my document has expired
18:17:40 [Larry]
the Freed document updates the entire MIME registration document
18:18:08 [JeniT]
there's very little on fragment identifiers
18:18:23 [DKA]
Larry: My document was a requirements document to point out what was wrong. While the above (draft-freed-media-type-regs-00) updates the entire mime type reg process.
18:18:28 [Zakim]
18:19:12 [DKA]
Dan: Should we review draft-freed-media-type-regs-00 against your requirements?
18:19:13 [Yves]
yes fragment identifiers, issue of compound documents, clash between generic things (foo/* and +bar)
18:19:24 [JeniT]
18:19:36 [Larry]
larry: if we want to be effective, getting updates to the freed document seems to be the path
18:20:51 [DKA]
Larry: I'm interested - I would like to work with someone.
18:21:17 [JeniT]
I can look from a fragid lens, will try to write something up while I'm on holiday (1st 2 weeks of August)
18:21:23 [DKA]
.ACTION: Larry to meet with Yves prior to the IETF document to review this document.
18:22:04 [DKA]
ACTION: Larry to meet with Yves prior to the IETF document to review this draft-freed-media-type-regs-00.
18:22:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-585 - Meet with Yves prior to the IETF document to review this draft-freed-media-type-regs-00. [on Larry Masinter - due 2011-07-28].
18:22:30 [DKA]
Larry: IRI working group is meeting - they are making good progress.
18:23:17 [DKA]
Larry: [summarizes] they are having a meeting next week. It's open. You can call in.
18:23:24 [DKA]
… we can carry TAG sentiment to it.
18:23:50 [Larry]
18:24:26 [DKA]
18:24:36 [Zakim]
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18:24:58 [Larry]
rrsagent, pointer
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TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
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Attendees were Masinter, JeniT, +1.858.216.aaaa, ht, plinss, Yves, Ashok_Malhotra, +1.650.294.aabb, jar, +44.55.aacc, DKA
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rrsagent, pointer
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rrsagent, pointer
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