13:51:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
13:51:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/21-rdfa-irc
13:51:09 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
13:51:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:51:09 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
13:51:11 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
13:51:11 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
13:51:12 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
13:51:12 <trackbot> Date: 21 July 2011
13:51:14 <lindstream> lindstream has joined #rdfa
13:52:51 <SebastianGermesin> I still need to figure out how to call in using sip... but at another time...
13:54:16 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
13:54:24 <Zakim> + +44.123.456.aaaa
13:54:33 <SebastianGermesin> zakim, i am aaaa
13:54:34 <Zakim> +SebastianGermesin; got it
13:57:35 <Zakim> +??P5
13:57:53 <gkellogg> zakim, +??P5 is gkellogg
13:57:53 <Zakim> sorry, gkellogg, I do not recognize a party named '+??P5'
13:57:54 <Zakim> +??P6
13:58:05 <gkellogg> zakim, i am +??P5
13:58:05 <Zakim> sorry, gkellogg, I do not see a party named '+??P5'
13:58:08 <Zakim> +scor
13:58:19 <manu1> zakim, who is on the call?
13:58:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see SebastianGermesin, ??P5, ??P6, scor
13:58:22 <gkellogg> zakim, i am ??P5
13:58:23 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
13:58:32 <tomayac> tomayac has joined #rdfa
13:58:41 <lindstream> zakim, I am +??P6
13:58:41 <Zakim> sorry, lindstream, I do not see a party named '+??P6'
13:58:55 <Zakim> +??P12
13:59:00 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P12
13:59:00 <Zakim> +manu1; got it
13:59:08 <lindstream> zakim, I am ??P6
13:59:09 <Zakim> +lindstream; got it
13:59:20 <scor> scor has joined #rdfa
13:59:51 <scor> zakim, who is on the phone
13:59:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', scor
13:59:58 <scor> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:59:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see SebastianGermesin, gkellogg, lindstream, scor, manu1
14:00:33 <gkellogg> scribe: gkellogg
14:00:46 <Zakim> +Steven
14:00:48 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
14:00:53 <Zakim> + +3539149aabb
14:00:55 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
14:00:55 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
14:00:57 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
14:00:57 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
14:01:01 <Knud> Knud has joined #rdfa
14:01:19 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:01:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see SebastianGermesin, gkellogg, lindstream, scor, manu1, Steven, MacTed (muted), +3539149aabb
14:01:27 <Knud> zakim, I am +aabb
14:01:27 <Zakim> sorry, Knud, I do not see a party named '+aabb'
14:01:30 <Zakim> +??P34
14:01:35 <Knud> zakim, I am aabb
14:01:41 <Zakim> +tomayac
14:01:50 <Zakim> +Knud; got it
14:01:55 <ShaneM> zakim, I am ??P34
14:01:57 <Knud> zakim, mute me
14:02:13 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
14:02:17 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted
14:02:31 <gkellogg> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/Scribing.html
14:03:26 <manu1> zakim, who is on the call?
14:03:39 <Zakim> + +358.405.25aacc
14:03:39 <scor> scribe: scor
14:03:43 <manu1> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jul/0042.html
14:03:49 <bergie> zakim, I am aacc
14:03:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see SebastianGermesin, gkellogg, lindstream, scor, manu1, Steven, MacTed (muted), Knud (muted), ShaneM, tomayac, +358.405.25aacc
14:04:03 <bergie> zakim, mute me
14:04:22 <Zakim> +bergie; got it
14:04:22 <Steven> agenda?
14:04:31 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted
14:05:03 <Steven> http://www.doodle.com/87nkyax5q5bma698#table
14:05:15 <scor_> scor_ has joined #rdfa
14:05:20 <scor> manu1: any change to the agenda?
14:05:53 <Knud> oops
14:06:25 <Knud> I did it the other way round
14:06:38 <Knud> But I corrected it now
14:07:35 <scor_> manu1: everyone ok for having a call on Aug 4th?
14:07:36 <bergie> I *may* be able to join Aug 4th, but not sure
14:07:53 <scor_> manu1: Aug 4th is the only con which might be cancelled
14:08:34 <scor_> Topic: structured-data.org update
14:09:14 <scor_> http://linter.structured-data.org/
14:09:17 <manu1> I owe you guys a front-page...
14:09:18 <gkellogg> Linter: http://linter.structured-data.org/
14:10:10 <scor_> scor_: hope to launch early next week
14:10:53 <scor_> gkellogg: mimic google rich snippets. schema.org is todo, plus other schemas like FOAF, SIOC
14:11:13 <scor_> manu1: fantastic to work on that, should be beneficial for lots of people
14:11:53 <scor_> manu1: we want to get whatwg and microformats folks, but not been successful so far (missed them on IRC)
14:12:26 <tomayac> ok w/ me
14:12:35 <bergie> looks good
14:12:35 <scor_> manu1: any concerns with including other groups? and launch early next week anyways?
14:13:11 <scor_> gkellogg: we don't have microformats now (no parser available). if anyone has pointers to parser (XSLT maybe)
14:13:19 <scor_> manu1: not much available
14:13:55 <scor_> Topic: schema.org
14:14:23 <scor_> manu1: Ben Adida had conversation with Google folks. he is hopeful they could include a subset of RDFa 1.1 in schema.org
14:14:48 <Steven> s/manu1: Ben Adida had conversation with Google folks. he is hopeful they could include a subset of RDFa 1.1 in schema.org//
14:14:54 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:14:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/21-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
14:15:26 <Steven> Chair: Manu
14:15:53 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:15:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/21-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
14:16:55 <gkellogg> q+
14:18:27 <ShaneM> q+
14:18:37 <manu1> ack gkellogg
14:18:49 <gkellogg> Topic with Hixie comment: https://plus.google.com/u/0/115203359751471044302/posts/92VKitpppB4
14:18:59 <scor_> manu1: the RDF conversion steps could be removed the RDF processing rules from the microdata specs
14:19:34 <bergie> q+
14:19:42 <ShaneM> ack ShaneM
14:19:51 <manu1> ack bergie
14:19:51 <bergie> zakim, unmute me
14:19:54 <Zakim> bergie was not muted, bergie
14:20:25 <scor_> bergie: if the RDF processing were to be removed from microdata, we would end up with 2 separate formats
14:20:36 <bergie> zakim, mute me
14:20:36 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted
14:20:37 <lindstream> q+
14:20:38 <scor_> bergie: then would people both with RDFa at all?
14:20:45 <scor_> s/both/bother
14:21:26 <manu1> zakim, who is making noise?
14:21:37 <Zakim> manu1, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: lindstream (46%), scor (15%)
14:21:43 <bergie> the advantage for microdata not being RDF would of course be clarity: you do schema.org microdata only for SEO, RDFa for being linked data
14:22:06 <ShaneM> I do agree that if microdata stops having an RDF mapping it would be a good thing
14:22:13 <scor_> lindstream: could there be one monolithic format for schema.org as a subset of RDFa 1.1?
14:23:24 <scor_> manu1: if the RDF steps are removed from microdata, this might be enough to avoid forming the TF. 
14:23:59 <scor_> manu1: but then, there would be no reason for people to implement RDFa because it's more complex, and not necessary for SEO
14:25:21 <lindstream> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jul/0048.html
14:25:23 <manu1> Topic: Alternate @profile proposals
14:26:33 <scor_> lindstream: profiles are complex. primary suggestion is to move mapping of terms to a semantic level
14:26:53 <scor_> lindstream: use the vocab attr only. and instead describe vocabularies which import other terms
14:27:14 <scor_> lindstream: like schema.org and ogp, they define every single term that they think people will need
14:28:07 <scor_> lindstream: it's vocabulary design, as opposed to embeding vocab definitions in RDFa
14:28:20 <scor_> lindstream: markup would look more like microdata
14:28:28 <manu1> q+
14:28:33 <manu1> ack lindstream
14:29:07 <scor_> manu1: at the time, we didn't see problems or any danger with profiles
14:29:43 <tomayac> looking at your gist, lindstream: https://gist.github.com/1092350
14:29:50 <lindstream> q+
14:30:05 <scor_> manu1: in your email, you provide a mechanism to define terms. solution #2 is interesting for the RDF people (the rest don't care because it's close to microdata syntax)
14:30:37 <manu1> ack manu1
14:31:00 <tomayac> is this something like inlined grddl?
14:32:35 <gkellogg> q+
14:32:37 <scor_> lindstream: solution #2 specifies a new emerging pattern for the semantic web (broader than RDFa)
14:32:50 <scor_> lindstream: great value in linking terms from your vocabs to other vocabs
14:33:38 <scor_> lindstream: defining this mapping vocabulary is for the benefit of the general RDF community
14:33:40 <manu1> ack lindstream
14:33:53 <gkellogg> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#RDFSRules
14:34:50 <lindstream> q+
14:34:57 <scor_> gkellogg: some of the RDFS entailment rules would accomplish the same thing. we could generate a subset vocab for class and properties.
14:34:59 <manu1> ack gkellogg
14:35:45 <scor_> lindstream: good point, will include that in my next email. chicken and egg: you produce triples intended to be remapped, which won't be remapped until other use the same mechanism
14:36:34 <scor_> manu1: there were a few concerns about remove profiles
14:36:46 <scor_> s/remove/removing
14:36:54 <lindstream> q+
14:37:08 <scor_> manu1: people who want to keep profiles are ShaneM and the ePub folks
14:37:12 <manu1> ack lindstream
14:37:59 <scor_> lindstream: I looked at the ePub spec, it didn't seem too tricky to tweak their work and avoid profiles, and use vocab instead. I will look at that.
14:38:22 <lindstream> q+
14:38:38 <manu1> ack lindstream
14:38:50 <scor_> manu1: negative: the initial RDF graph you get from the RDFa is not as complete as the one you would using RDFS
14:41:07 <scor_> lindstream: from asking people to reference multiple vocabs in your page, we ask them to reference these other vocabs via an intermediary vocabulary (defined according to the mapping mecahnism)
14:41:12 <lindstream> q+
14:41:23 <manu1> ack lindstream
14:42:17 <scor_> manu1: what are you thouhts ShaneM ?
14:42:59 <scor_> ShaneM: I've sent an email about my concerns. main point: there has to be a way for authors what they mean to say when using a term
14:43:07 <gkellogg> q+
14:43:23 <manu1> 1. Why is waiting for all @profile documents to load and then proceeding a bad thing? What makes it technically challenging to implement in a browser?
14:43:25 <manu1> 2. Is there an announcement mechanism for RDFa Core 1.1? We removed @version and pseudo-replaced it with @profile. Do we need to re-introduce @version? If we don't do this, an RDFa 2.0 processor may accidentally corrupt the intent of an RDFa 1.1 document.
14:43:28 <manu1> ack gkellogg
14:44:05 <scor_> gkellogg: re relying on another mapping document. the original reason for this discussion is the need to load the profile during the parsing of the HTML document.
14:44:08 <manu1> q+
14:44:11 <manu1> ack manu1
14:45:37 <lindstream> q+
14:46:08 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
14:46:08 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
14:46:11 <scor_> gkellogg: if you have the need to operate on the inferred triples, you still have a (weaker) dependency on the vocabulary 
14:46:19 <MacTed> q+
14:46:27 <manu1> ack lindstream
14:47:13 <scor_> MacTed: there has to be external dependencies no matter what, which have to be dereferenced later
14:47:32 <MacTed> q-
14:47:32 <gkellogg> q+
14:47:35 <manu1> ack MacTed
14:48:02 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
14:48:02 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
14:48:22 <scor_> lindstream: main point: these dependencies are on the semantic level, not at the parsing level. might break when using the follow your noise, but we always have triple we can operate on
14:49:22 <Steven> s/noise/nose/
14:50:02 <manu1> ack gkellogg
14:50:32 <scor_> gkellogg: this mechanism processing rules and remove dependencies during that processing
14:50:44 <mike_english> mike_english has joined #rdfa
14:51:04 <scor_> manu1: right, it does not remove the need to do follow your nose, but it puts in a the background, and people who want to use it can just do it
14:51:44 <gkellogg> q+
14:51:45 <ShaneM> q+ to ask about follow your nose
14:51:57 <manu1> ack gkellogg
14:52:14 <lindstream> q+
14:52:20 <manu1> ack shanem
14:52:20 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask about follow your nose
14:52:29 <scor_> gkellogg: if we do use something like RDFS, the original statement does not get erased, it gets added
14:53:08 <manu1> ack lindstream
14:53:18 <scor_> manu1: does this RDFa API handle the RDFS rules ?
14:55:27 <manu1> STRAW POLL: Drop @profile as it is defined now, and replace it with Niklas' @vocab proposal (#2 item in his e-mail - proxy vocabularies)
14:55:49 <manu1> +1
14:55:51 <gkellogg> +1
14:55:51 <SebastianGermesin> +1
14:55:52 <Steven> +0
14:55:53 <lindstream> +1
14:55:54 <bergie> +1
14:55:54 <scor_> +1
14:55:57 <tomayac> 0 (no opinion really)
14:56:05 <ShaneM> +0
14:56:07 <Knud> +1 
14:56:55 <MacTed> +0 insufficiently considered for me to decide
14:57:10 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
14:57:10 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
14:57:31 <lindstream> q+
14:57:32 <scor_> manu1: looks like a consensus, but we should ask other groups like IPTC and Facebook
14:57:40 <manu1> ack lindstream
14:57:56 <scor_> lindstream: we should consider the proposal #1
14:58:59 <scor_> manu1: Nathan said it was not possible in RDFa, but I can't recall his reasoning....
14:59:20 <lindstream> q+
14:59:21 <manu1> prefix="title: http://purl.org/dc/terms/title dc: http://purl.org/dc/terms/"
14:59:53 <manu1> property="title" or property="dc:title"
14:59:58 <Zakim> -MacTed
15:00:01 <manu1> ack lindstream
15:00:21 <ShaneM> prefix=":title http://purl.org/dc/terms/title dc: http://purl.org/dc/terms/"
15:00:30 <lindstream> prefix=":title http://purl.org/dc/terms/title dc: http://purl.org/dc/terms/"
15:01:04 <scor_> manu1: can't we remove the : in the prefix list?
15:03:27 <Zakim> -gkellogg
15:03:31 <Zakim> -Steven
15:03:33 <Zakim> -manu1
15:03:36 <Zakim> -SebastianGermesin
15:03:38 <Zakim> -tomayac
15:03:39 <Zakim> -scor
15:03:41 <Zakim> -bergie
15:03:43 <Zakim> -Knud
15:03:49 <Zakim> -ShaneM
15:04:03 <Zakim> -lindstream
15:04:05 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
15:04:07 <Zakim> Attendees were +44.123.456.aaaa, SebastianGermesin, scor, gkellogg, manu1, lindstream, Steven, +3539149aabb, MacTed, tomayac, Knud, ShaneM, +358.405.25aacc, bergie
15:07:30 <MacTed> wasn't me talking about @role, no...
15:07:52 <scor_> manu1: you'll have to fill in re @role issue
15:08:03 <manu1> That was Shane, got it, thx
15:09:13 <lindstream> lindstream has left #rdfa
15:12:16 <SebastianGermesin> SebastianGermesin has left #rdfa
16:02:33 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
16:06:53 <ShaneM> ShaneM has left #rdfa
17:23:11 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
18:15:28 <manu1> rrsagent, bye
18:15:28 <RRSAgent> I see no action items