14:56:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rd
14:56:32 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/21-rd-irc
14:56:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:56:34 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rd
14:56:36 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7394
14:56:36 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_RDWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:37 <trackbot> Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference
14:56:37 <trackbot> Date: 21 July 2011
14:57:50 <shadi> agenda+ Welcome
14:57:50 <shadi> agenda+ Revisit research topics - http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki
14:57:50 <shadi> agenda+ Selection of first topic
14:57:59 <shadi> chair: shadi
14:58:09 <shadi> zakim, call shadi-617
14:58:09 <Zakim> ok, shadi; the call is being made
14:58:10 <Zakim> WAI_RDWG()11:00AM has now started
14:58:11 <Zakim> +Shadi
15:02:55 <Zakim> +??P29
15:02:59 <Zakim> -??P29
15:02:59 <giorgio> giorgio has joined #rd
15:03:01 <Zakim> +??P29
15:03:06 <shadi> zakim, ? is Mate
15:03:10 <yeliz> yeliz has joined #rd
15:03:19 <Zakim> +Mate; got it
15:04:00 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #rd
15:04:01 <Zakim> +??P43
15:04:10 <yeliz> zakim, ??P43 is yeliz
15:04:41 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:04:46 <Zakim> +yeliz; got it
15:05:16 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcome" taken up [from shadi]
15:06:34 <shadi> regrets: Charles, Vivienne, Simon, Markel, Klaus
15:08:04 <shadi> scribe: yeliz 
15:09:12 <giorgio> hi there; I'm having the usual pbms with voip
15:09:20 <shadi> :(
15:09:51 <Zakim> +??P15
15:10:01 <Joshue> zakim, ??P15 is Joshue
15:10:01 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
15:10:22 <Mate> no
15:10:44 <Joshue> :-)
15:11:43 <Joshue> :-)
15:11:46 <Zakim> +??P27
15:12:07 <shadi> zakim, ? is Giorgio
15:12:07 <Zakim> +Giorgio; got it
15:12:39 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:12:39 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:13:06 <Joshue> shadi, you've got a whole Studio One Dub echo going on :-)
15:13:23 <yeliz> zakim, mute yeliz
15:13:23 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
15:13:58 <Joshue> thats better
15:14:38 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:14:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shadi, Mate, yeliz (muted), Joshue (muted), Giorgio
15:14:53 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/scribes
15:16:36 <yeliz> zakim, unmute yeliz
15:16:36 <Zakim> yeliz should no longer be muted
15:16:49 <shadi> agenda?
15:17:26 <yeliz> shadi: we wil take turns in scribing
15:17:30 <yeliz> zakim, mute me
15:17:31 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
15:17:53 <yeliz> shadi: the list is alphabetical here but we will take turns: http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/scribes
15:18:17 <yeliz> shadi: if you cannot scribe or don't want to scribe, please let me know and I will take you off from the list
15:18:35 <Joshue> The new SIP thing is working pretty well.
15:18:36 <yeliz> shadi: if you experience any problems with the telecon. system, let us know, we want to improve the system
15:18:48 <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
15:18:48 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
15:19:05 <yeliz> shadi: anybody is aware of accessible SIP clients, let me know
15:19:22 <yeliz> shadi: haven't been successful, let me know if you find an accessible client
15:19:28 <shadi> zakim, take up next
15:19:28 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Revisit research topics - http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki" taken up [from shadi]
15:19:32 <yeliz> shadi: they all seem to have different accessibility issue
15:19:41 <yeliz> shadi: moving on to the next topic
15:19:43 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/
15:19:50 <yeliz> shadi: Simon has emailed the steps
15:19:58 <yeliz> shadi: this week would be used to add/expand topics
15:20:18 <yeliz> shadi: so that we can take a candidate topic so that we can explore that topic
15:20:30 <yeliz> shadi: some people have been active on the wiki
15:20:40 <yeliz> shadi: new topics added and some expanded
15:20:49 <yeliz> shadi: not so much activity though
15:21:07 <yeliz> shadi: what do you think? do you have any observation
15:21:27 <yeliz> Joshua: difficult to say, we need to get a feel, 
15:21:42 <yeliz> Joshua: I am interested in finding out topics that I am not currently involved with
15:21:51 <Zakim> -yeliz
15:21:56 <yeliz> Joshua: hoping to chat, discuss people who are not on the list
15:22:12 <shadi> scribe: Joshue 
15:22:16 <Joshue> shadi: Part of the issues is that people are waiting
15:22:38 <Joshue> SAZ: We need to get people out of their comfort zone and use the wiki
15:22:53 <Joshue> SAZ: I encourage others to start using the wiki as much as poss.
15:22:59 <yeliz> \me sorry lost the connection :(
15:23:04 <Joshue> SAZ: Simples things can be added
15:23:34 <Joshue> SAZ: I have added a line or two here and there, the webpage sampling.
15:23:52 <Joshue> Its a little chicken or egg
15:24:08 <Joshue> SAZ: How can we get people to talk?
15:24:57 <Joshue> SAZ: These are problems with international group.
15:26:09 <Joshue> Mate: We could pick a topic every week, talk about that etc.
15:26:49 <shadi> zakim, who is noisy?
15:27:00 <giorgio> I guess it's me again sorry!
15:27:01 <Zakim> shadi, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Giorgio (29%), Mate (5%)
15:27:09 <giorgio> yes
15:28:11 <Mate> I could not hear it
15:28:21 <Zakim> +??P37
15:28:25 <giorgio> ok
15:28:27 <yeliz> zakim, ??P37 is yeliz
15:28:27 <Zakim> +yeliz; got it
15:28:33 <giorgio> we need to discuss each issue first
15:28:44 <giorgio> find overlaps between them
15:28:47 <shadi> scribe: yeliz 
15:28:52 <yeliz> zakim, mute yeliz
15:28:52 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
15:28:59 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:28:59 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:29:01 <giorgio> and only then in the end decide to focus for 2 months or so on the first one
15:29:11 <Joshue> +1
15:29:20 <giorgio> perhaps shadi could read it
15:29:24 <Joshue> +1 to discussing and seeing overlaps
15:29:57 <yeliz> SAZ: we need to discuss and find the overlaps, and only in the end decide to focus on one topic more closely
15:30:12 <yeliz> SAZ: I think Simon had a different hope, 
15:30:22 <Joshue> If I was to pick one I'd suggest Metrics?
15:30:32 <Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Benchmarking_Web_Accessibility_Metrics
15:30:34 <yeliz> SAZ: but as the Joshua says the wiki is empty and people don't know each other
15:30:46 <yeliz> SAZ: lets start looking at a topic
15:30:51 <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
15:30:51 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
15:30:55 <yeliz> and Joshua is suggesting one now
15:31:21 <yeliz> Joshua: this ties in really well with something that I will do later
15:31:42 <yeliz> Joshua: if SAZ you want to focus on something else, then we can focus on someting else
15:31:58 <yeliz> SAZ: I don't want to be biased though, as you know I am interested in evaluation
15:32:23 <yeliz> SAZ: what do others think? Shall we look at this topic and looks for the overlap with other topics
15:32:24 <Joshue> Yes
15:32:25 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Benchmarking_Web_Accessibility_Metrics
15:32:33 <yeliz> SAZ: lets look at this topic first
15:32:40 <yeliz> SAZ: what does it contain?
15:33:03 <yeliz> zakim, mute me
15:33:03 <Zakim> yeliz was already muted, yeliz
15:33:16 <giorgio> if needed I could tell something more about the experiments markel and I did
15:33:57 <yeliz> Joshua: can I put somebody's name here who is interested in this?
15:34:05 <yeliz> SAZ: ofcourse
15:34:20 <yeliz> SAZ: you are welcome to add a small parag about you
15:34:32 <yeliz> SAZ: ofcourse you can link directly to your home page as well
15:34:49 <yeliz> SAZ: Joshua, what's your view on this topic?
15:35:40 <yeliz> Joshua: I think the area of metrics, evaluation benchmarking, I think I am thinking about case studies, etc, I am wondering as well the user experience, and usability testing
15:35:56 <yeliz> Joshua: interested in fleshing out a framework
15:36:17 <yeliz> Joshua: I am also interested in usability metrics to support inclusive design
15:36:37 <yeliz> SAZ: that's interesting, but I undertsood to measuring the level accessibility
15:36:53 <yeliz> SAZ: but I guess you are talking about the perceived benefits, etc...
15:37:01 <giorgio> may i say something?
15:37:20 <shadi> q+
15:37:21 <yeliz> Joshua: I guess where I am coming is from assessing accessibility technically
15:37:31 <giorgio> q+
15:37:34 <shadi> ack me
15:37:40 <shadi> ack g
15:38:15 <Mate> I can not understand, sorry
15:38:18 <yeliz> GB: the experiments we have done with Markel
15:38:48 <yeliz> zakim, unmute yeliz
15:38:49 <Zakim> yeliz should no longer be muted
15:39:06 <yeliz> zakim, mute yeliz
15:39:06 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
15:39:12 <giorgio> i think we should first fous on measuring acc
15:39:19 <giorgio> then on measuring effects
15:39:32 <giorgio> that's because if metrics foracc are not valid, everything else
15:39:35 <yeliz> YY: I agree with Giorgio
15:39:39 <giorgio> would be random or so
15:40:01 <Joshue> Yes
15:40:16 <Joshue> I think the benefits would be an extra topic
15:40:21 <yeliz> SAZ: measuring accessibility is crucial, and then measuring the benefits would come later
15:40:35 <giorgio> yes, i agree with joshua
15:40:35 <yeliz> Joshua: benefit, business case, etc I think is another topics
15:41:18 <yeliz> SAZ: the way I add a page, I search for a topic and if it is not there then I add it
15:41:32 <yeliz> Joshua: I can add a new page talking about the benefit assessment
15:42:24 <yeliz> SAZ: two sides of measurement: validity (how accessible is the content) vs. the benefits of making a page accessible (certain level)
15:43:04 <yeliz> SAZ: those kind of research, they have a certain scope
15:43:29 <yeliz> SAZ: the majority of the topics suggested, fall into the category of midterm range topics
15:43:38 <yeliz> SAZ: some of them are even short term
15:43:50 <yeliz> SAZ: what is missing for sure is long term topics
15:43:59 <yeliz> SAZ: things for instance, gesture
15:44:19 <yeliz> SAZ: how is the change of interaction affecting the accessibility, requirements and paradigms
15:45:00 <yeliz> SAZ: this is definitely missing, and I know most of you have experience in that
15:45:18 <yeliz> SAZ: please fill free to add topics that do not have the same tone in the current topics
15:45:36 <yeliz> Joshua: as far as I know Chaals is interested in this and there is a group working on this
15:45:50 <yeliz> SAZ: there is also another group looking into this
15:46:07 <yeliz> SAZ: this group should have to watch for overlaps with other groups, do some complementary stuff
15:46:20 <yeliz> SAZ: and make sure that there is no repeatition
15:46:27 <yeliz> SAZ: gesture is one of the ideas
15:46:47 <yeliz> YY: affective computing
15:47:20 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:47:20 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:47:30 <yeliz> SAZ: please go ahead and add more
15:47:42 <yeliz> SAZ: topics that will become hot topics in future
15:48:00 <yeliz> SAZ: any other topic that would be interesting to look at?
15:48:14 <yeliz> SAZ: Lets look at web metrics
15:48:29 <yeliz> SAZ: Joshua mentioned that this is focused on automated testing
15:48:48 <yeliz> SAZ: even if we say measuring accessibility that does not say automated
15:49:02 <yeliz> SAZ: we can break them into: automated + non-automated
15:49:07 <Mate> q+
15:49:12 <yeliz> SAZ: what do you think about the non-automated part
15:49:18 <shadi> ack m
15:49:47 <yeliz> I annot hear well
15:49:49 <giorgio> the fundamental pbm  see with acc metrics is how to make it sure that they measure what we mean (validity)
15:50:00 <giorgio> the pbm is the same with auto &manual metrics
15:50:19 <yeliz> Mate: Its difficult
15:50:31 <yeliz> SAZ: objectively measurable and non-obejctively
15:51:02 <yeliz> SAZ: for example, how good is alt text?
15:51:29 <yeliz> SAZ: same problem again with automatic and manual
15:51:42 <yeliz> SAZ: Objective vs subjective, very different specturms
15:52:07 <yeliz> SAZ: when we talk about measuring accessibility, it's one of the things that will always come up
15:52:29 <yeliz> SAZ: any other observations from this topic?
15:52:45 <yeliz> Mate: accessibility is depends on the audiance
15:53:10 <yeliz> Mate: if thee site is targeting Hungarians, then the accessibility is related how many people can access it?
15:54:10 <yeliz> Mate: It would be good to give some ratings, say for example you cannot reach certain percentage of people
15:54:21 <yeliz> Mate: it would be good to have these in guidelines
15:54:50 <yeliz> SAZ: the idea of guidelines, is based on universal design, not to focus on certain user groups
15:55:13 <yeliz> SAZ: we do not want to miss any group, for example people who are deaf-blind are not well represented
15:55:21 <Mate> I agree
15:55:23 <yeliz> SAZ: we don't have time to dwell into this
15:55:37 <yeliz> SAZ: measuring by numbers vs. measuring by people
15:55:55 <yeliz> SAZ: Giorgio's work is relevant to this -- Barrier Walkthrough method
15:56:11 <yeliz> SAZ: That goes into aggregation and impact of the accessibility barriers
15:56:17 <giorgio> I'm a bit confused: I thought that we needed to discuss topics/issues that would promote research/experiments in an area, rather than (just) proposing new research ideas.
15:56:37 <yeliz> SAZ: we need to still have a measurement
15:56:40 <giorgio> In the proposed entry in the wiki we suggested to set up a sort of competition between research gorups 
15:56:52 <giorgio> to foster results, standardized results,etc
15:57:22 <giorgio> no no. that one
15:57:26 <Joshue> zakim, umute me
15:57:26 <Zakim> I don't understand 'umute me', Joshue
15:57:35 <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
15:57:35 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
15:57:37 <giorgio> where we say "... thesame type of competition" ...
15:57:40 <yeliz> SAZ: Giorgio I am not sure which topic you are referring to
15:58:12 <giorgio> bye
15:58:13 <Zakim> -Joshue
15:58:58 <giorgio> to anyone
15:59:10 <yeliz> SAZ: response to Giorgio's comment...Are you asking specifically about this topic or ?
15:59:24 <yeliz> SAZ: we really need research topics that will advance accessibility
15:59:39 <yeliz> SAZ: I really encourage people to add whatever they want to get a momentum
15:59:55 <yeliz> SAZ: then we can choose the ones which will have higher impact
15:59:59 <yeliz> SAZ: to make sure that the whole thing is moving fastre
16:00:07 <giorgio> so the output would be a researc agenda to give to researchers worldwide
16:00:54 <yeliz> SAZ: don't want to overclaim what we want to do in this group
16:01:05 <yeliz> SAZ: we certainly want to contribute to the research agenda
16:01:15 <yeliz> SAZ: but don't want to overclaim
16:01:42 <yeliz> SAZ: we need bigger impact topics
16:01:58 <yeliz> SAZ: we need to have a good combination of short, mid and long term researchers
16:02:07 <yeliz> so that we would be able to choose from them
16:02:12 <giorgio> yes it does
16:02:20 <yeliz> SAZ: does that answer your question Giorgio?
16:02:29 <shadi> zakim, take up next
16:02:29 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Selection of first topic" taken up [from shadi]
16:02:29 <yeliz> SAZ: Lets come back to the final agenda item
16:02:57 <yeliz> SAZ: we were discussing selecting a topic to focus on
16:03:04 <yeliz> SAZ: this will be done in parallel to wiki
16:03:14 <yeliz> SAZ: we will continue to add wiki, expand topics, etc
16:03:32 <yeliz> SAZ: we want to have a menu card with lots of selection
16:03:37 <yeliz> SAZ: but we need to start somewhere
16:03:47 <yeliz> SAZ: The idea is to start a web based survey
16:03:58 <yeliz> SAZ: today is the deadline for adding a topic
16:04:08 <yeliz> SAZ: with this survey you will be asked to rate the topics
16:04:11 <Mate> sorry, my wireless disconnected
16:04:29 <yeliz> SAZ: you will be able to say, combine them, focus on partial topic
16:04:40 <yeliz> SAZ: hopefully next week we will have the first topics
16:04:53 <yeliz> SAZ: so we will have a first webinar and working group note
16:04:59 <yeliz> SAZ: that is the plan for the upcoming week
16:05:19 <yeliz> SAZ: any question? comments?
16:05:23 <yeliz> SAZ: please do add to the wiki
16:05:39 <yeliz> SAZ: don't right now be too hesitant with the ideas you have
16:05:54 <yeliz> SAZ: think about the topics that will have high impact and will advance the accessibility
16:06:17 <yeliz> SAZ: the ideas which are important will buble up and the rest will stay there anyway
16:06:40 <yeliz> SAZ: wait for the survey and Simon will send the survey this week
16:06:43 <giorgio> ok bye
16:06:45 <yeliz> zakim, unmute me
16:06:45 <Zakim> yeliz should no longer be muted
16:06:52 <Mate> ok
16:06:56 <Mate> bye
16:07:18 <Zakim> -yeliz
16:07:19 <Zakim> -Shadi
16:07:29 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
16:07:29 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:07:29 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Shadi, Mate, yeliz, Joshue, Giorgio
16:07:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:07:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/21-rd-minutes.html trackbot
16:07:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:07:31 <RRSAgent> I see no action items