IRC log of rd on 2011-07-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:56:32 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rd
14:56:32 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:56:34 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:56:34 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rd
14:56:36 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7394
14:56:36 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_RDWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:37 [trackbot]
Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference
14:56:37 [trackbot]
Date: 21 July 2011
14:57:50 [shadi]
agenda+ Welcome
14:57:50 [shadi]
agenda+ Revisit research topics -
14:57:50 [shadi]
agenda+ Selection of first topic
14:57:59 [shadi]
chair: shadi
14:58:09 [shadi]
zakim, call shadi-617
14:58:09 [Zakim]
ok, shadi; the call is being made
14:58:10 [Zakim]
WAI_RDWG()11:00AM has now started
14:58:11 [Zakim]
15:02:55 [Zakim]
15:02:59 [Zakim]
15:02:59 [giorgio]
giorgio has joined #rd
15:03:01 [Zakim]
15:03:06 [shadi]
zakim, ? is Mate
15:03:10 [yeliz]
yeliz has joined #rd
15:03:19 [Zakim]
+Mate; got it
15:04:00 [Joshue]
Joshue has joined #rd
15:04:01 [Zakim]
15:04:10 [yeliz]
zakim, ??P43 is yeliz
15:04:41 [shadi]
zakim, take up agendum 1
15:04:46 [Zakim]
+yeliz; got it
15:05:16 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Welcome" taken up [from shadi]
15:06:34 [shadi]
regrets: Charles, Vivienne, Simon, Markel, Klaus
15:08:04 [shadi]
scribe: yeliz
15:09:12 [giorgio]
hi there; I'm having the usual pbms with voip
15:09:20 [shadi]
15:09:51 [Zakim]
15:10:01 [Joshue]
zakim, ??P15 is Joshue
15:10:01 [Zakim]
+Joshue; got it
15:10:22 [Mate]
15:10:44 [Joshue]
15:11:43 [Joshue]
15:11:46 [Zakim]
15:12:07 [shadi]
zakim, ? is Giorgio
15:12:07 [Zakim]
+Giorgio; got it
15:12:39 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
15:12:39 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
15:13:06 [Joshue]
shadi, you've got a whole Studio One Dub echo going on :-)
15:13:23 [yeliz]
zakim, mute yeliz
15:13:23 [Zakim]
yeliz should now be muted
15:13:58 [Joshue]
thats better
15:14:38 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:14:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Shadi, Mate, yeliz (muted), Joshue (muted), Giorgio
15:14:53 [shadi]
15:16:36 [yeliz]
zakim, unmute yeliz
15:16:36 [Zakim]
yeliz should no longer be muted
15:16:49 [shadi]
15:17:26 [yeliz]
shadi: we wil take turns in scribing
15:17:30 [yeliz]
zakim, mute me
15:17:31 [Zakim]
yeliz should now be muted
15:17:53 [yeliz]
shadi: the list is alphabetical here but we will take turns:
15:18:17 [yeliz]
shadi: if you cannot scribe or don't want to scribe, please let me know and I will take you off from the list
15:18:35 [Joshue]
The new SIP thing is working pretty well.
15:18:36 [yeliz]
shadi: if you experience any problems with the telecon. system, let us know, we want to improve the system
15:18:48 [Joshue]
zakim, unmute me
15:18:48 [Zakim]
Joshue should no longer be muted
15:19:05 [yeliz]
shadi: anybody is aware of accessible SIP clients, let me know
15:19:22 [yeliz]
shadi: haven't been successful, let me know if you find an accessible client
15:19:28 [shadi]
zakim, take up next
15:19:28 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Revisit research topics -" taken up [from shadi]
15:19:32 [yeliz]
shadi: they all seem to have different accessibility issue
15:19:41 [yeliz]
shadi: moving on to the next topic
15:19:43 [shadi]
15:19:50 [yeliz]
shadi: Simon has emailed the steps
15:19:58 [yeliz]
shadi: this week would be used to add/expand topics
15:20:18 [yeliz]
shadi: so that we can take a candidate topic so that we can explore that topic
15:20:30 [yeliz]
shadi: some people have been active on the wiki
15:20:40 [yeliz]
shadi: new topics added and some expanded
15:20:49 [yeliz]
shadi: not so much activity though
15:21:07 [yeliz]
shadi: what do you think? do you have any observation
15:21:27 [yeliz]
Joshua: difficult to say, we need to get a feel,
15:21:42 [yeliz]
Joshua: I am interested in finding out topics that I am not currently involved with
15:21:51 [Zakim]
15:21:56 [yeliz]
Joshua: hoping to chat, discuss people who are not on the list
15:22:12 [shadi]
scribe: Joshue
15:22:16 [Joshue]
shadi: Part of the issues is that people are waiting
15:22:38 [Joshue]
SAZ: We need to get people out of their comfort zone and use the wiki
15:22:53 [Joshue]
SAZ: I encourage others to start using the wiki as much as poss.
15:22:59 [yeliz]
\me sorry lost the connection :(
15:23:04 [Joshue]
SAZ: Simples things can be added
15:23:34 [Joshue]
SAZ: I have added a line or two here and there, the webpage sampling.
15:23:52 [Joshue]
Its a little chicken or egg
15:24:08 [Joshue]
SAZ: How can we get people to talk?
15:24:57 [Joshue]
SAZ: These are problems with international group.
15:26:09 [Joshue]
Mate: We could pick a topic every week, talk about that etc.
15:26:49 [shadi]
zakim, who is noisy?
15:27:00 [giorgio]
I guess it's me again sorry!
15:27:01 [Zakim]
shadi, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Giorgio (29%), Mate (5%)
15:27:09 [giorgio]
15:28:11 [Mate]
I could not hear it
15:28:21 [Zakim]
15:28:25 [giorgio]
15:28:27 [yeliz]
zakim, ??P37 is yeliz
15:28:27 [Zakim]
+yeliz; got it
15:28:33 [giorgio]
we need to discuss each issue first
15:28:44 [giorgio]
find overlaps between them
15:28:47 [shadi]
scribe: yeliz
15:28:52 [yeliz]
zakim, mute yeliz
15:28:52 [Zakim]
yeliz should now be muted
15:28:59 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
15:28:59 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
15:29:01 [giorgio]
and only then in the end decide to focus for 2 months or so on the first one
15:29:11 [Joshue]
15:29:20 [giorgio]
perhaps shadi could read it
15:29:24 [Joshue]
+1 to discussing and seeing overlaps
15:29:57 [yeliz]
SAZ: we need to discuss and find the overlaps, and only in the end decide to focus on one topic more closely
15:30:12 [yeliz]
SAZ: I think Simon had a different hope,
15:30:22 [Joshue]
If I was to pick one I'd suggest Metrics?
15:30:32 [Joshue]
15:30:34 [yeliz]
SAZ: but as the Joshua says the wiki is empty and people don't know each other
15:30:46 [yeliz]
SAZ: lets start looking at a topic
15:30:51 [Joshue]
zakim, unmute me
15:30:51 [Zakim]
Joshue should no longer be muted
15:30:55 [yeliz]
and Joshua is suggesting one now
15:31:21 [yeliz]
Joshua: this ties in really well with something that I will do later
15:31:42 [yeliz]
Joshua: if SAZ you want to focus on something else, then we can focus on someting else
15:31:58 [yeliz]
SAZ: I don't want to be biased though, as you know I am interested in evaluation
15:32:23 [yeliz]
SAZ: what do others think? Shall we look at this topic and looks for the overlap with other topics
15:32:24 [Joshue]
15:32:25 [shadi]
15:32:33 [yeliz]
SAZ: lets look at this topic first
15:32:40 [yeliz]
SAZ: what does it contain?
15:33:03 [yeliz]
zakim, mute me
15:33:03 [Zakim]
yeliz was already muted, yeliz
15:33:16 [giorgio]
if needed I could tell something more about the experiments markel and I did
15:33:57 [yeliz]
Joshua: can I put somebody's name here who is interested in this?
15:34:05 [yeliz]
SAZ: ofcourse
15:34:20 [yeliz]
SAZ: you are welcome to add a small parag about you
15:34:32 [yeliz]
SAZ: ofcourse you can link directly to your home page as well
15:34:49 [yeliz]
SAZ: Joshua, what's your view on this topic?
15:35:40 [yeliz]
Joshua: I think the area of metrics, evaluation benchmarking, I think I am thinking about case studies, etc, I am wondering as well the user experience, and usability testing
15:35:56 [yeliz]
Joshua: interested in fleshing out a framework
15:36:17 [yeliz]
Joshua: I am also interested in usability metrics to support inclusive design
15:36:37 [yeliz]
SAZ: that's interesting, but I undertsood to measuring the level accessibility
15:36:53 [yeliz]
SAZ: but I guess you are talking about the perceived benefits, etc...
15:37:01 [giorgio]
may i say something?
15:37:20 [shadi]
15:37:21 [yeliz]
Joshua: I guess where I am coming is from assessing accessibility technically
15:37:31 [giorgio]
15:37:34 [shadi]
ack me
15:37:40 [shadi]
ack g
15:38:15 [Mate]
I can not understand, sorry
15:38:18 [yeliz]
GB: the experiments we have done with Markel
15:38:48 [yeliz]
zakim, unmute yeliz
15:38:49 [Zakim]
yeliz should no longer be muted
15:39:06 [yeliz]
zakim, mute yeliz
15:39:06 [Zakim]
yeliz should now be muted
15:39:12 [giorgio]
i think we should first fous on measuring acc
15:39:19 [giorgio]
then on measuring effects
15:39:32 [giorgio]
that's because if metrics foracc are not valid, everything else
15:39:35 [yeliz]
YY: I agree with Giorgio
15:39:39 [giorgio]
would be random or so
15:40:01 [Joshue]
15:40:16 [Joshue]
I think the benefits would be an extra topic
15:40:21 [yeliz]
SAZ: measuring accessibility is crucial, and then measuring the benefits would come later
15:40:35 [giorgio]
yes, i agree with joshua
15:40:35 [yeliz]
Joshua: benefit, business case, etc I think is another topics
15:41:18 [yeliz]
SAZ: the way I add a page, I search for a topic and if it is not there then I add it
15:41:32 [yeliz]
Joshua: I can add a new page talking about the benefit assessment
15:42:24 [yeliz]
SAZ: two sides of measurement: validity (how accessible is the content) vs. the benefits of making a page accessible (certain level)
15:43:04 [yeliz]
SAZ: those kind of research, they have a certain scope
15:43:29 [yeliz]
SAZ: the majority of the topics suggested, fall into the category of midterm range topics
15:43:38 [yeliz]
SAZ: some of them are even short term
15:43:50 [yeliz]
SAZ: what is missing for sure is long term topics
15:43:59 [yeliz]
SAZ: things for instance, gesture
15:44:19 [yeliz]
SAZ: how is the change of interaction affecting the accessibility, requirements and paradigms
15:45:00 [yeliz]
SAZ: this is definitely missing, and I know most of you have experience in that
15:45:18 [yeliz]
SAZ: please fill free to add topics that do not have the same tone in the current topics
15:45:36 [yeliz]
Joshua: as far as I know Chaals is interested in this and there is a group working on this
15:45:50 [yeliz]
SAZ: there is also another group looking into this
15:46:07 [yeliz]
SAZ: this group should have to watch for overlaps with other groups, do some complementary stuff
15:46:20 [yeliz]
SAZ: and make sure that there is no repeatition
15:46:27 [yeliz]
SAZ: gesture is one of the ideas
15:46:47 [yeliz]
YY: affective computing
15:47:20 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
15:47:20 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
15:47:30 [yeliz]
SAZ: please go ahead and add more
15:47:42 [yeliz]
SAZ: topics that will become hot topics in future
15:48:00 [yeliz]
SAZ: any other topic that would be interesting to look at?
15:48:14 [yeliz]
SAZ: Lets look at web metrics
15:48:29 [yeliz]
SAZ: Joshua mentioned that this is focused on automated testing
15:48:48 [yeliz]
SAZ: even if we say measuring accessibility that does not say automated
15:49:02 [yeliz]
SAZ: we can break them into: automated + non-automated
15:49:07 [Mate]
15:49:12 [yeliz]
SAZ: what do you think about the non-automated part
15:49:18 [shadi]
ack m
15:49:47 [yeliz]
I annot hear well
15:49:49 [giorgio]
the fundamental pbm see with acc metrics is how to make it sure that they measure what we mean (validity)
15:50:00 [giorgio]
the pbm is the same with auto &manual metrics
15:50:19 [yeliz]
Mate: Its difficult
15:50:31 [yeliz]
SAZ: objectively measurable and non-obejctively
15:51:02 [yeliz]
SAZ: for example, how good is alt text?
15:51:29 [yeliz]
SAZ: same problem again with automatic and manual
15:51:42 [yeliz]
SAZ: Objective vs subjective, very different specturms
15:52:07 [yeliz]
SAZ: when we talk about measuring accessibility, it's one of the things that will always come up
15:52:29 [yeliz]
SAZ: any other observations from this topic?
15:52:45 [yeliz]
Mate: accessibility is depends on the audiance
15:53:10 [yeliz]
Mate: if thee site is targeting Hungarians, then the accessibility is related how many people can access it?
15:54:10 [yeliz]
Mate: It would be good to give some ratings, say for example you cannot reach certain percentage of people
15:54:21 [yeliz]
Mate: it would be good to have these in guidelines
15:54:50 [yeliz]
SAZ: the idea of guidelines, is based on universal design, not to focus on certain user groups
15:55:13 [yeliz]
SAZ: we do not want to miss any group, for example people who are deaf-blind are not well represented
15:55:21 [Mate]
I agree
15:55:23 [yeliz]
SAZ: we don't have time to dwell into this
15:55:37 [yeliz]
SAZ: measuring by numbers vs. measuring by people
15:55:55 [yeliz]
SAZ: Giorgio's work is relevant to this -- Barrier Walkthrough method
15:56:11 [yeliz]
SAZ: That goes into aggregation and impact of the accessibility barriers
15:56:17 [giorgio]
I'm a bit confused: I thought that we needed to discuss topics/issues that would promote research/experiments in an area, rather than (just) proposing new research ideas.
15:56:37 [yeliz]
SAZ: we need to still have a measurement
15:56:40 [giorgio]
In the proposed entry in the wiki we suggested to set up a sort of competition between research gorups
15:56:52 [giorgio]
to foster results, standardized results,etc
15:57:22 [giorgio]
no no. that one
15:57:26 [Joshue]
zakim, umute me
15:57:26 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'umute me', Joshue
15:57:35 [Joshue]
zakim, unmute me
15:57:35 [Zakim]
Joshue should no longer be muted
15:57:37 [giorgio]
where we say "... thesame type of competition" ...
15:57:40 [yeliz]
SAZ: Giorgio I am not sure which topic you are referring to
15:58:12 [giorgio]
15:58:13 [Zakim]
15:58:58 [giorgio]
to anyone
15:59:10 [yeliz]
SAZ: response to Giorgio's comment...Are you asking specifically about this topic or ?
15:59:24 [yeliz]
SAZ: we really need research topics that will advance accessibility
15:59:39 [yeliz]
SAZ: I really encourage people to add whatever they want to get a momentum
15:59:55 [yeliz]
SAZ: then we can choose the ones which will have higher impact
15:59:59 [yeliz]
SAZ: to make sure that the whole thing is moving fastre
16:00:07 [giorgio]
so the output would be a researc agenda to give to researchers worldwide
16:00:54 [yeliz]
SAZ: don't want to overclaim what we want to do in this group
16:01:05 [yeliz]
SAZ: we certainly want to contribute to the research agenda
16:01:15 [yeliz]
SAZ: but don't want to overclaim
16:01:42 [yeliz]
SAZ: we need bigger impact topics
16:01:58 [yeliz]
SAZ: we need to have a good combination of short, mid and long term researchers
16:02:07 [yeliz]
so that we would be able to choose from them
16:02:12 [giorgio]
yes it does
16:02:20 [yeliz]
SAZ: does that answer your question Giorgio?
16:02:29 [shadi]
zakim, take up next
16:02:29 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Selection of first topic" taken up [from shadi]
16:02:29 [yeliz]
SAZ: Lets come back to the final agenda item
16:02:57 [yeliz]
SAZ: we were discussing selecting a topic to focus on
16:03:04 [yeliz]
SAZ: this will be done in parallel to wiki
16:03:14 [yeliz]
SAZ: we will continue to add wiki, expand topics, etc
16:03:32 [yeliz]
SAZ: we want to have a menu card with lots of selection
16:03:37 [yeliz]
SAZ: but we need to start somewhere
16:03:47 [yeliz]
SAZ: The idea is to start a web based survey
16:03:58 [yeliz]
SAZ: today is the deadline for adding a topic
16:04:08 [yeliz]
SAZ: with this survey you will be asked to rate the topics
16:04:11 [Mate]
sorry, my wireless disconnected
16:04:29 [yeliz]
SAZ: you will be able to say, combine them, focus on partial topic
16:04:40 [yeliz]
SAZ: hopefully next week we will have the first topics
16:04:53 [yeliz]
SAZ: so we will have a first webinar and working group note
16:04:59 [yeliz]
SAZ: that is the plan for the upcoming week
16:05:19 [yeliz]
SAZ: any question? comments?
16:05:23 [yeliz]
SAZ: please do add to the wiki
16:05:39 [yeliz]
SAZ: don't right now be too hesitant with the ideas you have
16:05:54 [yeliz]
SAZ: think about the topics that will have high impact and will advance the accessibility
16:06:17 [yeliz]
SAZ: the ideas which are important will buble up and the rest will stay there anyway
16:06:40 [yeliz]
SAZ: wait for the survey and Simon will send the survey this week
16:06:43 [giorgio]
ok bye
16:06:45 [yeliz]
zakim, unmute me
16:06:45 [Zakim]
yeliz should no longer be muted
16:06:52 [Mate]
16:06:56 [Mate]
16:07:18 [Zakim]
16:07:19 [Zakim]
16:07:29 [shadi]
trackbot, end meeting
16:07:29 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:07:29 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Shadi, Mate, yeliz, Joshue, Giorgio
16:07:30 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:07:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:07:31 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:07:31 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items