IRC log of rdf-wg on 2011-07-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:57:48 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:57:48 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:58:19 [gavinc]
zakim, this is rdfwg
14:58:19 [Zakim]
ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
14:58:29 [yvesr]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:58:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.707.861.aaaa, +20598aabb, ??P9
14:58:37 [gavinc]
zakim, aaaa is me
14:58:37 [Zakim]
+gavinc; got it
14:58:45 [yvesr]
Zakim, ??P9 is me
14:58:45 [Zakim]
+yvesr; got it
14:58:53 [AndyS]
AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:16 [Zakim]
14:59:33 [Scott_Bauer]
Zakim, Tony is me
14:59:33 [Zakim]
+Scott_Bauer; got it
15:00:25 [Guus]
zakim, who is here?
15:00:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see gavinc, +20598aabb, yvesr, Scott_Bauer
15:00:26 [MacTed]
Zakim, code?
15:00:26 [Zakim]
the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, MacTed
15:00:28 [Zakim]
15:00:34 [Zakim]
15:00:35 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P15 is me
15:00:35 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
15:00:40 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:00:40 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
15:00:42 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
15:00:42 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
15:01:00 [Guus]
zakim, +20598aabb is me
15:01:00 [Zakim]
+Guus; got it
15:01:03 [Zakim]
15:01:23 [Zakim]
+ +1.540.898.aacc
15:01:54 [Zakim]
+ +539149aadd
15:02:04 [davidwood]
Zakim, aacc is me
15:02:05 [Zakim]
+davidwood; got it
15:02:07 [tomayac]
tomayac has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:22 [LeeF]
LeeF has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:39 [Zakim]
15:02:42 [cygri]
zakim, aadd is me
15:02:42 [Zakim]
+cygri; got it
15:03:04 [Zakim]
15:03:13 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.553.aaee
15:03:17 [LeeF]
zakim, aaee is me
15:03:17 [Zakim]
+LeeF; got it
15:03:28 [SteveH]
Zakim, ??P22 is me
15:03:28 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
15:03:41 [cygri]
scribe: cygri
15:03:44 [Zakim]
15:03:53 [mischat]
zakim, ??P26 is me
15:03:55 [Zakim]
+mischat; got it
15:03:57 [Zakim]
15:03:59 [mischat]
zakim, mute me
15:04:01 [Zakim]
mischat should now be muted
15:04:07 [Zakim]
15:04:12 [SteveH]
Zakim, ??P27 is me
15:04:13 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
15:04:17 [cygri]
topic: Admin
15:04:35 [Zakim]
15:04:37 [mischat]
15:04:51 [mbrunati]
zakim, ??P22 is me
15:04:51 [Zakim]
+mbrunati; got it
15:05:06 [cygri]
PROPOSAL: accept last week's minutes
15:05:25 [cygri]
RESOLUTION: accept last week's minutes
15:05:27 [Zakim]
15:05:36 [cygri]
topic: Action item review
15:05:49 [FabGandon]
Zakim, Bert is me
15:05:49 [Zakim]
+FabGandon; got it
15:05:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.404.978.aaff
15:06:06 [cygri]
guus: richard did ACTION-64, it's done, close it
15:06:13 [tomayac]
zakim, aaff is me
15:06:13 [Zakim]
+tomayac; got it
15:06:32 [cygri]
sandro: didn't do ACTION-52 yet
15:06:56 [AZ]
AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:07:42 [cygri]
cygri: ACTION-62 done on list (not on wiki)
15:08:06 [cygri]
15:08:07 [trackbot]
ACTION-65 -- Sandro Hawke to and Pat to consider what words to add to minimal proposal. -- due 2011-06-29 -- OPEN
15:08:07 [trackbot]
15:08:17 [Zakim]
15:08:18 [cygri]
sandro: not yet done
15:08:26 [NickH]
zakim, ??P5 is me
15:08:26 [Zakim]
+NickH; got it
15:08:31 [NickH]
zakim, mute me
15:08:31 [Zakim]
NickH should now be muted
15:08:32 [cygri]
guus: ACTION-66 not yet done, paul on holiday
15:08:39 [yvesr]
Zakim, mute me
15:08:39 [Zakim]
yvesr should now be muted
15:08:41 [pchampin]
pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:09:08 [cygri]
... ACTION-67 and ACTION-68 remain open
15:09:34 [cygri]
... next telecon is August 3
15:09:47 [cygri]
davidwood: i can chair on that date
15:09:55 [cygri]
topic: Turtle Editors Draft
15:10:04 [cygri]
guus: davidwood made transition request
15:10:11 [cygri]
... there are still admin things to be done
15:10:30 [gavinc]
Turtle is already a reasonably settled serialization of RDF. Many implementations of Turtle already exist, we are hoping for feedback from those existing implementors and other people deciding that now would be a good time to support Turtle. There are still a few rough edges that need polishing, and better alignment with the SPARQL triple patterns. The working group does not expect to make any large changes to the existing syntax.
15:10:40 [cygri]
gavinc: we now have status paragraph that the WG needs to agree to
15:11:04 [cygri]
davidwood: we need to find words in this telecon that reflect the status as the WG sees it
15:11:23 [pchampin]
pchampin has left #rdf-wg
15:11:49 [cygri]
guus: i'm happy with the text
15:11:49 [ericP]
+1 to text
15:11:53 [AndyS]
Looks good for WD
15:12:12 [cygri]
PROPOSAL: accept status text as proposed
15:12:24 [cygri]
RESOLUTION: accept turtle status text as proposed
15:13:06 [Zakim]
15:13:11 [cygri]
sandro: technically speaking, the team contacts write this text. discussing it is fine though
15:13:19 [AZ]
Zakim, wcandillon is me
15:13:19 [Zakim]
+AZ; got it
15:13:33 [pchampin]
pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:13:53 [cygri]
guus: i'd like to take brief look on turtle issues
15:14:35 [cygri]
gavinc: most of these issues are already resolved, just not closed
15:14:50 [Zakim]
15:15:27 [AndyS]
ISSUE-1 => ISSUE-19 , ISSUE-20
15:15:54 [cygri]
ericP: (discussion of ISSUE-67)
15:16:16 [cygri]
ericP: SPARQL is changing escaping rules
15:16:34 [AndyS]
Why \u in prefix part? What is it escaping?
15:16:35 [cygri]
... used to escape everywhere; now escapes only certain places; discussion is which places exactly
15:16:44 [Souri]
Souri has joined #RDF-WG
15:16:57 [cygri]
guus: gavin, can you take action to update the issue list?
15:17:04 [Zakim]
+ +1.603.897.aagg
15:17:06 [cygri]
ACTION: gavinc to update Turtle issue list to reflect current status
15:17:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-69 - Update Turtle issue list to reflect current status [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-07-27].
15:17:09 [Souri]
aagg is me
15:17:18 [Souri]
zakim, aagg is me
15:17:18 [Zakim]
+Souri; got it
15:17:32 [gavinc]
15:17:45 [cygri]
gavinc: (discusses the section on relationship between turtle and n-triples)
15:18:29 [cygri]
ericP: question to the community is whether they'd want a section that describes the subset of turtle that's n-triples
15:19:05 [cygri]
gavinc: defining n-triples as part of turtle would have implications on utf-8 support
15:19:24 [AndyS]
q+ to ask about MIME types
15:19:49 [cygri]
ericP: we could publish n-triples as part of turtle, or as a separate document
15:20:04 [cygri]
AndyS: if we make it a chapter, then how do we handle the media type registration?
15:20:08 [Souri]
+1 to ericP's proposal that we add a section that describes the subset of turtle that's n-triples or as a separate document
15:20:17 [ericP]
current media type for ntriples is text/plain
15:20:19 [cygri]
gavinc: that's a problem. we may be better off making a separate document
15:20:33 [cygri]
... otoh, it means more boilerplate and more document than we really need
15:20:38 [NickH]
+1 to getting a proper MIME type for n-triples
15:21:13 [cygri]
guus: can you make a proposal?
15:21:31 [cygri]
gavinc: it would have wide-ranging implications. it's defined in a different document that we may not plan to change?
15:21:41 [cygri]
AndyS: it's currently defined in the RDF Test Cases document
15:21:55 [cygri]
gavinc: it's a bit weird at the moment, parts are informative
15:21:56 [AndyS]
New MIME type - text/plain is "unhelpful" at best.
15:22:04 [cygri]
guus: i agree. that's something we want to fix
15:22:04 [pchampin]
is the plan to make n-triples accept UTF-8?
15:22:36 [cygri]
gavinc: can we have a poll? separate document vs. section in turtle?
15:23:23 [cygri]
ericP: if nt is ASCII only, then that's a bigger change, not quite just subset
15:23:28 [sandro]
POLL: (1) ntriples in turtle document, (2) ntriples in its own document
15:23:47 [sandro]
15:23:53 [gavinc]
15:23:53 [yvesr]
15:23:56 [cygri]
15:23:58 [mbrunati]
15:24:02 [AndyS]
Don't care : UTF-8 v important.
15:24:04 [davidwood]
15:24:06 [AZ]
0 (not decided)
15:24:08 [Guus]
15:24:14 [pchampin]
0 (not decided)
15:24:25 [Souri]
don't care
15:24:25 [cygri]
ericP: we can go FPWD with turtle now either way
15:24:29 [MacTed]
15:24:35 [tomayac]
15:25:08 [cygri]
guus: let's do poll on UTF-8 vs ascii to?
15:25:12 [cygri]
15:25:50 [SteveH]
I don't prefer ASCII, FWIW
15:25:51 [cygri]
(discussion of performance of utf-8 vs ascii)
15:25:56 [SteveH]
I'd rather have UTF-8
15:26:07 [cygri]
15:26:13 [AndyS]
ack me
15:26:13 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to ask about MIME types
15:26:18 [davidwood]
15:26:21 [yvesr]
+1 on utf-8
15:26:25 [NickH]
+1 on utf-8
15:26:36 [cygri]
+1 on utf-8
15:26:38 [tomayac]
15:26:38 [Guus]
15:26:41 [LeeF]
15:26:42 [pchampin]
would utf-8 mean that \uXXXX are not allowed anymore ?
15:26:43 [ericP]
-.5 to utf-8
15:26:46 [mbrunati]
+1 on utf-8
15:26:47 [yvesr]
(seems slighly weird it's not yet!)
15:26:47 [AndyS]
+1 to UTF-8
15:26:48 [sandro]
15:26:55 [SteveH]
+1 to UTF-8
15:27:01 [cygri]
gavinc: \uXXXX would still be legal
15:27:01 [gavinc]
+1 utf-8
15:27:18 [pchampin]
so it means that there are several ways to serialize the same graph in n-triples?
15:27:23 [cygri]
ericP: for high throughput, ascii is faster
15:27:33 [pchampin]
makes it grep/sed/sort-unfriendly
15:27:35 [SteveH]
I dispute "much" as well
15:27:38 [cygri]
AndyS: i don't think it's much faster
15:27:40 [AndyS1]
AndyS1 has joined #rdf-wg
15:28:04 [cygri]
ericP: only reason for using nt is performance
15:28:13 [NickH]
you can write a much faster parser, if you know to only expect n-triples
15:28:46 [cygri]
AndyS: i got 90k with turtle and 120k with nt, with same character conversion code
15:28:52 [yvesr]
NickH, yes, it still need to have its own mimetype
15:28:58 [SteveH]
pchampin, modern grep etc. is UTF-8 compatible
15:29:07 [cygri]
(discussion of lexing and escaping)
15:29:56 [pchampin]
@steveh: yes, but grep does not know that "\uc3a9" is the same as "é", or does it??
15:30:11 [SteveH]
pchampin, that's not a UTF-8 thing though
15:30:16 [Guus]
15:30:19 [NickH]
yvesr: yes, it needs its own MIME type
15:30:22 [Guus]
ack cygri
15:30:35 [AndyS]
Can delay Unicode conversion and work in bytes only in UTF-8
15:30:40 [yvesr]
cygri, +1
15:30:47 [NickH]
AndyS: yes!
15:30:53 [cygri]
cygri: serializers would become simpler if utf-8 was allowed
15:31:04 [cygri]
gavinc: last time we had objection from oracle
15:31:14 [cygri]
souri: we use n-triples a lot
15:31:50 [cygri]
... we'll have to modify our software if we get input that uses utf-8
15:32:00 [SteveH]
a new name would make some sense
15:32:06 [SteveH]
15:32:09 [cygri]
... we'd prefer calling the new thing something else, n-triples prime or so
15:32:13 [cygri]
15:32:18 [ericP]
15:32:22 [pchampin]
q+ to ask about multiple n-triples serialization for the same graph
15:32:47 [cygri]
gavinc: is there an issue if the utf-8 version gets a new media type?
15:32:48 [ericP]
(STRING_LITERALs are even longer)
15:32:55 [AndyS]
ericP - you are confusing bytes and codepoints.
15:33:05 [cygri]
souri: we need to talk about it internally. might be able to tell you more next week
15:33:16 [ericP]
flex/bison lexing is in terms of bytes
15:33:17 [cygri]
steveh: in our code, the change was not that difficult
15:33:31 [cygri]
... the problem is deployed software that claims to handle n-triples
15:33:59 [Guus]
ack SteveH
15:34:02 [cygri]
... there will be confusion if deployed software has to deal with new data that uses utf-8
15:34:04 [cygri]
souri: exactly
15:34:09 [pchampin]
15:34:13 [pchampin]
in a very loud place
15:34:35 [pchampin]
so I'll write it down:
15:34:44 [pchampin]
I seem to remember a use case of NT:
15:34:44 [AndyS]
ericP - that's one way of doing it. There are others. e.g. Do checking of points elsewhere - lots (and lots!) of impl choices
15:34:52 [yvesr]
n-triples 1.1?
15:34:55 [pchampin]
handling it with text-based tools, such as grep, sed...
15:35:25 [yvesr]
pchampin, recent versions of those text-based tools deal with utf-8 correctly
15:35:45 [cygri]
ericP: we should publish it with an issue that says: we'll make n-triples utf-8, but some people might prefer an ascii version
15:36:13 [cygri]
guus: is everyone ok with proceeding in that way?
15:36:14 [yvesr]
pchampin, from grep's man "also work on UTF-8 files and 16-bit wide Unicode files"
15:36:19 [cygri]
souri: yes
15:36:59 [cygri]
gavinc: there's still some text in the document that claims that turtle is a subset of n3
15:37:05 [cygri]
... that's not strictly true any more
15:37:17 [cygri]
... i'd like wg feedback
15:37:27 [gavinc]
"It is intended to be compatible with, and a subset of, Notation 3."
15:37:45 [AndyS]
q+ to ask about motivation of text
15:37:48 [cygri]
ericP: i suspect tim will change n3 according to what we do with turtle
15:38:14 [cygri]
guus: i'd like to have a statement in there that says what the issue is, without formal claim about subset
15:38:15 [NickH]
I agree that Turtle doesn't need to be a format subset of N3
15:38:17 [NickH]
15:38:21 [NickH]
+1 to AndyS
15:38:26 [gavinc]
15:38:32 [cygri]
AndyS: the spec currently says, it's a *goal* to be a subset of n3
15:38:41 [cygri]
... we want to make turtle a free-standing language
15:38:45 [AndyS]
ack me
15:38:45 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to ask about motivation of text
15:38:47 [gavinc]
Perfectly happy to have N3 say "I'm an extension of Turtle" ;)
15:38:50 [pchampin]
15:38:52 [sandro]
Yeah. "Turtle is similar to, inspired by, and largely compatible with N3"
15:38:55 [cygri]
... n3 is not a standard
15:38:56 [Guus]
make provenace clear, nof formal subset statement
15:39:01 [cygri]
15:39:13 [cygri]
ericP: there are some ppl who come to rdf via n3
15:39:18 [yvesr]
+1 - it could make a reference to it though
15:39:21 [yvesr]
inspired by?
15:39:25 [cygri]
AndyS: i don't see any point in documenting the differences
15:39:36 [cygri]
... n3 will change, so this will be updated
15:39:41 [LeeF]
+100 to AndyS
15:39:45 [NickH]
+1 to AndyS
15:39:50 [pchampin]
+1 to andyS
15:39:50 [SteveH]
15:39:52 [yvesr]
15:39:53 [Guus]
ack cygri
15:39:54 [Souri]
+1 to AndyS
15:39:54 [gavinc]
15:40:02 [sandro]
yvesr, why do you ask "inspired by" ? That's a polite way to say 'a blatant ripoff", right? :-)
15:40:16 [yvesr]
sandro, heh :) yes, sort of
15:40:21 [ericP]
cygri: "The genesis of Turtle is N3"
15:40:32 [ericP]
... i don't see value in detailing the differences
15:40:33 [mischat]
i see no reason to talk about n3, +1 AndyS
15:40:39 [Guus]
ack yvesr
15:40:45 [ericP]
... "N3 is a more powerful predecessor of Turtle."
15:40:57 [gavinc]
"While Notation 3 (N3) syntax played a large role in the creation of Turtle they are not strictly compatable."
15:40:58 [cygri]
yvesr: we can leave it to the N3 spec to discuss this in detail
15:41:03 [gavinc]
that's in the text already
15:41:11 [cygri]
... just have historic note mentioning n3 in turtle
15:41:22 [cygri]
gavinc: ok, so i'll do this change before FPWD
15:41:25 [LeeF]
gavinc, in that above sentence, s/compatable/compatible :-)
15:41:46 [AndyS]
Imagine in +10years, what should the doc say? Do specs record history? Not a conf paper.
15:41:49 [sandro]
Guus, still totally breaking up....
15:41:52 [gavinc]
ah yes, being able to spell
15:42:02 [cygri]
guus: ... ... editorial disgression ... ...
15:42:40 [cygri]
topic: Graph terminology
15:42:58 [cygri]
15:43:14 [cygri]
guus: trying to summarize the consensus:
15:43:20 [cygri]
... g-snap = RDF graph
15:43:33 [sandro]
15:45:51 [cygri]
cygri: we have a proposal on the table, just adopt SPARQL's design. i want to hear clearly articulated what the problem is about that proposal
15:45:58 [cygri]
sandro: sparql misuses the term graph
15:46:18 [cygri]
... you can't do provenance if you don't know what's mutable and what's not
15:46:24 [sandro]
not the spec, but often the community, and it's ambiguous.
15:46:30 [cygri]
... (not the sparql spec, but the community misuses the term)
15:47:07 [sandro]
15:47:16 [ericP]
scribenick: pchampin
15:47:26 [Guus]
thx pa
15:47:41 [ericP]
scribenick: ericP
15:47:42 [pchampin]
cygri: sandro, are you saying that the spec is not appropriate for doing provenanve? or are just ppl using it the wrong way?
15:47:46 [ericP]
scribenick: pchampin
15:48:19 [pchampin]
sandro: the RDF spec should be more useful for doing provenance
15:48:42 [pchampin]
cygri: which use case is not currently solved with the SPARQL proposal?
15:49:15 [sandro]
15:49:24 [ericP]
we could just provide terms to document the state of the universe at an instant
15:49:42 [Guus]
ack cygri
15:49:45 [ericP]
so we could just use graph for g-snap and let other invent g-box etc.
15:49:50 [Guus]
ack sandro
15:50:18 [pchampin]
sandro: (some distinction btw g-snap and g-box, unmutable vs. mutable graph)
15:50:35 [AndyS]
In SPARQL, graphs are immutable values. Graph store is slots holding values.
15:50:39 [pchampin]
cygri: the current RDF model does not take time into account; a graph is a snapshot view of the world
15:51:31 [pchampin]
sandro: agreed, RDF is about snapshots, but computers often deal with changing things
15:51:36 [Guus]
"RDF graph" in SPARQL doc = g-box, in RDF docs = g-snap?
15:52:04 [pchampin]
cygri: you can make an RDF statement like "this graph is the state of that thing", "this graph is valid from time t0 to time t1"
15:52:26 [AndyS]
Guus, RDF graph = g-snap.
15:52:30 [AZ]
Guus, RDF graph is a set of triples in RDF specs *and* in SPARQL specs
15:52:37 [pchampin]
... provided the correct vocabulary; but this group does not have to provide such a vocabulary, only the underlying data model
15:53:07 [AndyS]
q+ to ask Sandro about spec text he thinks is unhelpful.
15:53:08 [AZ]
Guus, but SPARQL use the word "graph" in the phrase "named graph", in which case it's mutable
15:53:11 [pchampin]
sandro: either us or the provenance WG has to do it
15:53:17 [pchampin]
... or a joint task force
15:53:30 [pchampin]
q+ to ask a question to Richard
15:54:12 [pchampin]
cygri: we should ask the provenance WG whether they have use cases that the SPARQL model does not solve
15:54:20 [Guus]
ack AndyS
15:54:20 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to ask Sandro about spec text he thinks is unhelpful.
15:54:54 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
15:54:54 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
15:54:55 [MacTed]
15:55:55 [cygri]
sandro: for provenance use cases, you need a tight association between the triples in a graph, and the URI we make provenance statements about
15:56:18 [danbri_]
danbri_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:56:46 [pchampin]
@Andy, this is related: what is named in SPARQL-update ? (imutable) graphs or slots?
15:57:01 [MacTed]
containers and contained is the issue I see.... trying to respect vocal queue....
15:57:02 [cygri]
gavinc: is there a way in SPARQL 1.1 to name a graph and freeze that graph?
15:57:24 [cygri]
AndyS: no
15:57:33 [cygri]
sandro: that's the kind of functionality that would be needed for provenance
15:57:41 [Guus]
ack pchampin
15:57:41 [Zakim]
pchampin, you wanted to ask a question to Richard
15:57:45 [AndyS]
ack me
15:57:46 [pchampin]
my question to Richard:
15:58:06 [pchampin]
if we define precisely a data model
15:58:16 [pchampin]
what is the cost of defining the associated vocabulary?
15:58:38 [pchampin]
15:58:45 [AndyS]
Freeze a value is HTTP GET :-)
15:58:56 [pchampin]
(I think you stated that we need to define a data model, but not the vocabulary for representing it)
15:59:00 [gavinc]
But that doesn't freeze the NAME
15:59:01 [pchampin]
yes, I'm suggesting that it is low
15:59:18 [gavinc]
I think that's really all we need?
15:59:29 [pchampin]
cygri: provenance is a complex issue
15:59:46 [pchampin]
... ppl have been working for quite a while on an implicit named graph model
16:00:00 [AndyS]
Name is the serialization if you want to use with a store with change-of-slot value. Or use store that uses naming how you want.
16:00:05 [pchampin]
... we need to provide an explicit model for them (charter of the groupe)
16:00:09 [pchampin]
s/named graph/multi-graph/
16:00:20 [FabGandon]
q+ there are two kinds of vocabularies.
16:00:25 [pchampin]
... but we don't need to enter into detail provenance use cases
16:00:28 [sandro]
16:00:54 [cygri]
MacTed: i see a lack of coherent account of containers and contained structures
16:01:09 [cygri]
... in the SQL world, there's a concept of a database
16:01:13 [FabGandon]
q+ to say there are two kinds of vocabularies.
16:01:17 [cygri]
.. that's somewhat equivalent to RDF store
16:01:29 [cygri]
... a database contains catalogs, which contains schemas, which contains tables
16:01:41 [cygri]
... RDF stores contain graphs, which are somewhat equivalent to catalogs
16:01:49 [cygri]
... (or that's how people use them)
16:02:11 [cygri]
... the term graph here is horribly overused
16:02:27 [cygri]
... it can mean catalog, snapshot, etc etc
16:02:30 [gavinc]
Also amusing issue with Turtle in HTML: is a set of RDF Graphs, Dataset? ;)
16:02:37 [cygri]
... we need more specific terms for more specific things
16:02:59 [cygri]
... without more specific terms, provenance cannot succeed
16:03:04 [cygri]
kinda +1 to MacTed
16:03:09 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
16:03:09 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
16:03:16 [Guus]
+1 to MacTed
16:03:17 [MacTed]
16:03:27 [Guus]
16:03:30 [MacTed]
ack me
16:03:34 [cygri]
gavinc: i had multiple bits of turtle in one html file. what should i call these things?
16:03:40 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
16:03:40 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
16:03:43 [MacTed]
16:03:44 [cygri]
davidwood: how about dataset?
16:03:56 [cygri]
gavinc: well but that's a SPARQL term
16:04:24 [cygri]
FabGandon: for me there are two kinds of vocabularies, domain dependent and domain independent
16:04:29 [Guus]
ack FabGandon
16:04:30 [Zakim]
FabGandon, you wanted to say there are two kinds of vocabularies.
16:04:54 [cygri]
... for the provenance WG, something like attaching the date to a graph should be defined not by the RDF WG, but by the prov WG
16:04:57 [AndyS]
an RDF dataset is {G,(URIi, Gi)} -- Gavinc seems to want {Gi} (set of graphs? set of g-texts?)
16:05:10 [MacTed]
date of g-text falls into the "metadata" about that g-text ... but g-text needs that name in order to have such metadata...
16:05:18 [gavinc]
Yeah, how do those graphs in the Turtle HTML get named?
16:05:28 [cygri]
... but stating that something is a g-text should be done by the RDF WG
16:05:29 [sandro]
+1 we should be doing the vocab for talking about RDF (eg the replacement for RDF reification)
16:06:22 [cygri]
gavinc: my problem was that i have a single HTML document that contains multiple ... g-texts? g-snaps? that are not particularly named ...
16:06:23 [sandro]
they get named via HTML id's, I think.
16:06:36 [cygri]
... so it's multiple graphs in one document
16:06:50 [cygri]
AndyS: there are other collections of RDF graphs that are not RDF datasets
16:07:06 [cygri]
gavinc: yes and we need more specific terms
16:07:20 [cygri]
sandro: this should say SPARQL dataset, not RDF dataset
16:07:28 [cygri]
AndyS: SPARQL term is RDF dataset
16:07:52 [LeeF]
I would object to redefining the term "RDF dataset"
16:09:11 [cygri]
sandro: dataset is such a good term, it's a shame to use it for such a peculiar thing as a SPARQL dataset
16:09:23 [pchampin]
graphset ?
16:10:12 [sandro]
sandro: so maybe the turtle texts each get their html ID, forming named graphs in the dataset, and the RDF or un-id'd turtle goes into the default graph.
16:10:22 [cygri]
guus: i think we made some progress here. is it useful to involve the provenance wg?
16:10:31 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
16:10:31 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
16:10:40 [cygri]
... my feeling is we should still make up our minds on terminology
16:10:43 [Guus]
16:10:51 [cygri]
sandro: i think some sort of liaison would be helpful
16:10:59 [cygri]
... to get their use cases clear
16:11:11 [cygri]
... maybe a joint TF
16:11:31 [cygri]
... or communicate via documents. they have a primary use case written up on their wiki
16:11:42 [cygri]
MacTed: i think some cross-pollination is necessary
16:12:15 [cygri]
... many WGs look at small-case stuff without realizing that they're looking at a small part
16:12:23 [cygri]
... that's the root of many problems
16:12:43 [AndyS]
From the XG:
16:12:52 [Guus]
oroisal for joint RDF-Prov TF; who are volunteers to join?
16:13:13 [Guus]
16:13:50 [cygri]
... (discussion on philosophy of changing terms etc)
16:14:54 [cygri]
guus: we're out of time. any volunteers for a joint TF with prov group?
16:14:58 [sandro]
I'll join such a call
16:15:05 [cygri]
MacTed: i'd join
16:15:11 [cygri]
16:15:24 [cygri]
guus: i can organize such a call. not likely to happen before august
16:15:27 [gavinc]
... I'll join... wince
16:15:31 [cygri]
cygri: i'd join too
16:15:31 [Souri]
I'd like to join also
16:15:50 [AZ]
I think I'd join too
16:16:03 [pchampin]
depending on the time slot, I'll try to join as well
16:16:16 [cygri]
ACTION: guus to send email to provenance WG chairs about a joint call
16:16:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-70 - Send email to provenance WG chairs about a joint call [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-07-27].
16:16:36 [sandro]
action: guus to email about joint task force, or something. maybe include RDFa and SPARQL
16:16:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-71 - Email about joint task force, or something. maybe include RDFa and SPARQL [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-07-27].
16:16:48 [cygri]
MacTed: might want to involve more than these groups. also SPARQL, rdb2rdf, rdfa ...
16:16:51 [gavinc]
... how owl:imports acts ... :\
16:17:30 [Zakim]
16:17:30 [cygri]
guus: adjourned
16:17:32 [Zakim]
16:17:33 [AZ]
16:17:34 [Zakim]
16:17:35 [Zakim]
16:17:35 [Zakim]
16:17:36 [Zakim]
16:17:36 [Zakim]
16:17:37 [Zakim]
16:17:38 [Zakim]
16:17:38 [pchampin]
16:17:40 [Zakim]
16:17:43 [Zakim]
16:17:44 [Zakim]
16:17:45 [Zakim]
16:17:46 [Zakim]
16:17:48 [Zakim]
16:17:50 [Zakim]
16:17:52 [Zakim]
16:17:54 [mbrunati]
mbrunati has left #rdf-wg
16:17:55 [Zakim]
16:18:00 [pchampin]
thanks to Richard for scribing when I was supposed to
16:18:24 [cygri]
pchampin, you can return the favour in some future call :-)
16:18:30 [pchampin]
16:18:51 [pchampin]
I was not sure how well my wi-fi would be here, but it seems to be good enough to scribe
16:18:53 [pchampin]
see you
16:19:09 [Zakim]
16:20:12 [cygri]
sandro, help
16:20:21 [Zakim]
16:20:21 [cygri]
commonscribe throws python errors at me
16:20:22 [Zakim]
SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
16:20:24 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.707.861.aaaa, gavinc, yvesr, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, MacTed, Guus, EricP, +1.540.898.aacc, +539149aadd, davidwood, Sandro, cygri, +1.617.553.aaee, LeeF, SteveH,
16:20:26 [Zakim]
... mischat, mbrunati, FabGandon, +1.404.978.aaff, tomayac, NickH, AZ, pchampin, +1.603.897.aagg, Souri
16:21:21 [AndyS]
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16:23:40 [cygri]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:24:59 [cygri]
sandro, nevermind
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