14:55:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:55:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/20-i18n-irc
14:55:11 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #i18n
14:55:18 <aphillip> trackbot, prepare teleconference
14:55:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:55:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 4186
14:55:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:23 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Core Working Group Teleconference
14:55:23 <trackbot> Date: 20 July 2011
14:55:29 <aphillip> Chair: Addison Phillips
14:55:39 <aphillip> Scribe: Addison Phillips
14:55:39 <aphillip> ScribeNick: aphillip
14:55:53 <aphillip> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2011Jul/0011.html
14:55:59 <aphillip> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:55:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/20-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:56:26 <aphillip> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:56:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/20-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:56:44 <aphillip> rrsagent, get crackin'!
14:56:44 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'get crackin'!', aphillip.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:57:21 <matial> matial has joined #i18n
14:58:43 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
14:58:50 <Zakim> +??P12
14:59:47 <matial> zakim, ??P12 is matial
14:59:47 <Zakim> +matial; got it
15:00:35 <Zakim> +Addison_Phillips
15:00:38 <r12a> zakim, dial richard
15:00:38 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
15:00:40 <Zakim> +Richard
15:01:04 <aphillip> Regrets: Felix
15:04:19 <aphillip> zakkim, where is everyone else?
15:05:32 <aphillip> Topic: Agenda
15:05:44 <aphillip> Topic: Action Items
15:07:40 <aphillip> Topic: Info Share
15:08:09 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/
15:08:11 <matial> I too have a little bit of info
15:08:21 <aphillip> richard: home page rejigged a little
15:08:31 <aphillip> ... MLweb project mentioned
15:08:42 <aphillip> ... fixed up quick links
15:08:48 <aphillip> ... direct link to tracker
15:08:51 <aphillip> ... and to reviews
15:09:00 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/html5/qa-personal-names
15:09:03 <aphillip> richard: working on personal names qa
15:09:24 <aphillip> ... started to use HTML5 in article template
15:09:34 <aphillip> .. and the link above shows resulting work
15:09:55 <aphillip> ... propose to publish in HTML5 in the future
15:10:26 <r12a> http://validator.w3.org/i18n-checker/
15:10:29 <aphillip> richard: just published i18n checker 
15:10:35 <aphillip> ... more than just new UI
15:10:38 <aphillip> ... file upload option
15:10:43 <aphillip> ... html5 rules also checked
15:10:49 <aphillip> ... not yet xhtml5 and polyglot
15:10:57 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/quicktips/checker 
15:11:08 <aphillip> richard: lists all checks/messages
15:11:16 <aphillip> ... and details abou tthem
15:11:24 <aphillip> s/abou tthem/about them/
15:11:32 <aphillip> ... also points to authoritative sources
15:11:38 <aphillip> ... should review this as a WG
15:11:57 <aphillip> addison: will add this to agenda for next time
15:12:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/20-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:12:48 <aphillip> matial: Israeli Internet Society hosting group to design test cases for bidi support in HTML5
15:12:54 <aphillip> ... first meeting is next week
15:13:21 <aphillip> ... trying to make automated test cases against browsers
15:13:31 <aphillip> ... will be interesting to have that
15:13:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/20-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:14:03 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/tests/tests-html-css/list-text-direction
15:14:14 <aphillip> richard: new framework, so tests should fit that 
15:14:34 <matial> Here is the URL for this initiative: http://www.w3c.org.il/event/261
15:14:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/20-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:17:01 <aphillip> ACTION: richard: point out the test framework to Aharon for potential use in bidi tests
15:17:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-58 - Point out the test framework to Aharon for potential use in bidi tests [on Richard Ishida - due 2011-07-27].
15:17:18 <aphillip> TOPIC: HTML5 REVIEW
15:17:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/20-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:18:35 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2011JulSep/0024.html
15:19:17 <aphillip> 1. Section 2.5.1. Where it says:  -- When a user agent is to strip line breaks from a string, the user agent must remove any U+000A LINE FEED (LF) and U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN (CR) characters from that string. --  Should other line-terminators also be included here?
15:20:07 <aphillip> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#common-parser-idioms
15:21:28 <aphillip> ... such as line separator
15:21:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/20-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:24:14 <Zakim> +tomayac
15:24:19 <aharon> aharon has joined #i18n
15:24:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/20-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:26:36 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2011Jul/0009.html
15:26:51 <aphillip> ISSUE-35 (New attribute: ubi)<http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/35> I had left http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10807 open only because I was not 100% sure that it was a good idea that the <output> element was also defined to have isolation by default. But I never did make up my mind that it was a bad idea, so I have no intention to make a Last Call about it. Just forget about this.
15:27:29 <aphillip> aharon: need for bidi isolatoin. fixed by <bdi>
15:27:53 <aphillip> ... did not close this bug because html5 made one of the new elements (output) isolated by default
15:28:03 <aphillip> ... not sure if that's the right choice
15:28:34 <aphillip> richard: looked at a couple of days ago and not sure if it still says that
15:28:41 <aphillip> aharon: it's the default stylesheet
15:28:46 <aphillip> ... that would say that
15:28:52 <aphillip> ... not the spec itself so much
15:29:31 <r12a> 10.3.5 Bidirectional text
15:29:52 <r12a> bdi, output, [dir=auto] { unicode-bidi: isolate; } /* case-insensitive */
15:31:56 <aphillip> okay to close
15:32:04 <aphillip> ISSUE-36 (New dir attribute value: auto, and a new attribute: autodirmethod)<http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/36> Both http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10808 and http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11734 were fixed and are closed. The issue should be closed.
15:32:04 <kojiishi> kojiishi has joined #i18n
15:32:27 <aphillip> ISSUE-43 (Block-display elements should act as UBA paragraph breaks)<http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/43> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11829* is important and is still awaiting action by the editor.*
15:33:01 <aphillip> aharon: issue is now wider
15:33:04 <aphillip> bug is 11829
15:33:31 <aphillip> aharon: default stylesheet is non-normative and not very descriptive
15:33:39 <aphillip> ... and doesn't tell you what is supposed to be happening
15:33:45 <aphillip> ... in words
15:33:55 <aphillip> ... and HTML5 doesn't described
15:34:12 <aphillip> s/described/describe Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm/
15:34:16 <aphillip> ... how to apply it
15:34:19 <aphillip> ... etc.
15:34:30 <aphillip> aharon: CSS spec (writing-mode)
15:34:35 <aphillip> ... does describe this
15:34:41 <Zakim> +??P1
15:34:52 <kojiishi> zakim, ??p1 is me
15:34:52 <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
15:34:59 <aphillip> ... and default stylesheets invoke this 
15:35:41 <aphillip> aharon: so default stylesheet does define how UBA works in a non-normative and non-declarative way
15:35:51 <aphillip> ... so can't tell what the behaviors should be
15:36:06 <aphillip> ... and this was accepted by editor
15:36:23 <aphillip> ... but not present in document
15:36:42 <aphillip> ... I did provide what the text might be
15:36:48 <aphillip> ... and pinged
15:38:37 <aphillip> addison: html5 is kind of hand-wavy about bidi
15:38:53 <aphillip> ... also, there is a reason not to have stylesheet be normative
15:40:11 <aphillip> addison: should have a hard reference in html5
15:40:21 <aphillip> richard: could have two stylesheets: one normative and one informative
15:41:07 <aphillip> aharon: add section that says how bidi works in absense of css
15:41:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/20-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:41:35 <aphillip> aharon: definition in one place
15:42:44 <aphillip> ... comment 8 in:
15:42:52 <aharon> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11829#c8
15:43:29 <r12a> see the 4 paras after "By this role, I mean:"
15:47:23 <aphillip> richard: perhaps have a new comment
15:49:44 <Zakim> -Addison_Phillips
15:50:30 <r12a> zakim, who's here ?
15:50:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see matial, Richard, tomayac, kojiishi
15:50:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see kojiishi, aharon, matial, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, trackbot
15:51:15 <r12a> aharon, are you there ?
15:51:19 <r12a> we can't hear you
15:53:13 <Zakim> + +972.2.993.aaaa
15:53:27 <r12a> zakim, who's here ?
15:53:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see matial, Richard, tomayac, kojiishi, +972.2.993.aaaa
15:53:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see kojiishi, matial, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, trackbot
15:53:46 <r12a> zakim, kill tomayac
15:53:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'kill tomayac', r12a
15:53:55 <r12a> zakim, drop tomayac
15:53:55 <Zakim> tomayac is being disconnected
15:53:57 <Zakim> -tomayac
15:54:34 <r12a> Issue 49
15:54:40 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/49
15:54:47 <r12a> shouldn't have been filed, and works out ok
15:54:52 <r12a> let's just closed
15:54:57 <r12a> close it
15:55:27 <r12a> Issue 52
15:55:29 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/52
15:55:40 <r12a> situation is changing right now
15:55:49 <r12a> since email sent
15:56:02 <r12a> by default lists in html5 behave without interop between browsers
15:56:16 <r12a> some list items are in one direction, others in another direction
15:56:23 <r12a> at heart its a css issue
15:57:06 <r12a> this year the css3 lists module was worked on in earnest - the way it is being addressed is far from settled - keeps changing names and approaches
15:57:29 <r12a> in the end it should be fine on the css side, but css3 tries to be very backwards compatible
15:57:54 <r12a> it's not clear yet whether they will decide to make the css default to be the current browser behaviour or the new behaviour
15:58:09 <r12a> not that they like the old behaviour, it's a question of interoperability
15:58:47 <r12a> what they want to happen if for the html5 spec to say the real desireable default in hte default stylesheet
15:59:19 <r12a> unfortunately they still haven't decided on the syntax or whether it will be necessary to say it in the stylesheet
15:59:25 <r12a> so it's not clear how to proceed
15:59:45 <r12a> the editor is constantly modifying the proposal, never mind finish review
16:00:21 <r12a> hope is to convince them to commit to new behaviour for default
16:00:35 <r12a> aharon will be busy lobyying for that over coming days
16:00:39 <r12a> also
16:00:54 <r12a> default text-align is start 
16:01:46 <r12a> aharon suggested that the html5 default stylesheet should say that the default text align for li should be match-parent (already defined) - leads to uniform alignment
16:02:17 <r12a> dependent othe the soutions proposed this is either something absolutely necessary or just ok
16:02:29 <r12a> hopefully it will work out that its not important
16:02:40 <r12a> so not clear whether to ask that of the html5 editor yet
16:04:38 <r12a> so, depending on particulars of work on css lists may need some defaults set, but its not yet clear what
16:04:54 <r12a> richard: so if all becomes clear before end of LC, we should push for that
16:05:36 <r12a> otherwise we should lodge a flag that this is an issue still being worked on and that the spec should take into account the results of the discussion when they become available
16:06:20 <r12a> s/issue 52/issue 53/
16:06:32 <r12a> issue 52
16:06:42 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/52
16:06:53 <r12a> mostly fixed - need to just expand on a small comment
16:07:12 <r12a> if it doesn't happen it's not the end of the world 0- its non-normative
16:12:19 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10823
16:13:55 <Zakim> - +972.2.993.aaaa
16:13:57 <Zakim> -kojiishi
16:13:58 <Zakim> -matial
16:14:00 <Zakim> -Richard
16:14:01 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended
16:14:02 <Zakim> Attendees were matial, Addison_Phillips, Richard, tomayac, kojiishi, +972.2.993.aaaa
16:14:12 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:14:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/20-i18n-minutes.html r12a
16:14:37 <r12a> action: richard to figure out how to keep alive open bugs for the html5 LC
16:14:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-59 - Figure out how to keep alive open bugs for the html5 LC [on Richard Ishida - due 2011-07-27].
16:14:42 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:14:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/20-i18n-minutes.html r12a
16:19:55 <r12a> rssagent, make logs public
18:16:35 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n