IRC log of i18n on 2011-07-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:55:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:55:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:55:11 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #i18n
14:55:18 [aphillip]
trackbot, prepare teleconference
14:55:20 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:55:22 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 4186
14:55:22 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:23 [trackbot]
Meeting: Internationalization Core Working Group Teleconference
14:55:23 [trackbot]
Date: 20 July 2011
14:55:29 [aphillip]
Chair: Addison Phillips
14:55:39 [aphillip]
Scribe: Addison Phillips
14:55:39 [aphillip]
ScribeNick: aphillip
14:55:53 [aphillip]
14:55:59 [aphillip]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:55:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
14:56:26 [aphillip]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:56:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
14:56:44 [aphillip]
rrsagent, get crackin'!
14:56:44 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'get crackin'!', aphillip. Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:57:21 [matial]
matial has joined #i18n
14:58:43 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
14:58:50 [Zakim]
14:59:47 [matial]
zakim, ??P12 is matial
14:59:47 [Zakim]
+matial; got it
15:00:35 [Zakim]
15:00:38 [r12a]
zakim, dial richard
15:00:38 [Zakim]
ok, r12a; the call is being made
15:00:40 [Zakim]
15:01:04 [aphillip]
Regrets: Felix
15:04:19 [aphillip]
zakkim, where is everyone else?
15:05:32 [aphillip]
Topic: Agenda
15:05:44 [aphillip]
Topic: Action Items
15:07:40 [aphillip]
Topic: Info Share
15:08:09 [r12a]
15:08:11 [matial]
I too have a little bit of info
15:08:21 [aphillip]
richard: home page rejigged a little
15:08:31 [aphillip]
... MLweb project mentioned
15:08:42 [aphillip]
... fixed up quick links
15:08:48 [aphillip]
... direct link to tracker
15:08:51 [aphillip]
... and to reviews
15:09:00 [r12a]
15:09:03 [aphillip]
richard: working on personal names qa
15:09:24 [aphillip]
... started to use HTML5 in article template
15:09:34 [aphillip]
.. and the link above shows resulting work
15:09:55 [aphillip]
... propose to publish in HTML5 in the future
15:10:26 [r12a]
15:10:29 [aphillip]
richard: just published i18n checker
15:10:35 [aphillip]
... more than just new UI
15:10:38 [aphillip]
... file upload option
15:10:43 [aphillip]
... html5 rules also checked
15:10:49 [aphillip]
... not yet xhtml5 and polyglot
15:10:57 [r12a]
15:11:08 [aphillip]
richard: lists all checks/messages
15:11:16 [aphillip]
... and details abou tthem
15:11:24 [aphillip]
s/abou tthem/about them/
15:11:32 [aphillip]
... also points to authoritative sources
15:11:38 [aphillip]
... should review this as a WG
15:11:57 [aphillip]
addison: will add this to agenda for next time
15:12:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:12:48 [aphillip]
matial: Israeli Internet Society hosting group to design test cases for bidi support in HTML5
15:12:54 [aphillip]
... first meeting is next week
15:13:21 [aphillip]
... trying to make automated test cases against browsers
15:13:31 [aphillip]
... will be interesting to have that
15:13:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:14:03 [r12a]
15:14:14 [aphillip]
richard: new framework, so tests should fit that
15:14:34 [matial]
Here is the URL for this initiative:
15:14:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:17:01 [aphillip]
ACTION: richard: point out the test framework to Aharon for potential use in bidi tests
15:17:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-58 - Point out the test framework to Aharon for potential use in bidi tests [on Richard Ishida - due 2011-07-27].
15:17:18 [aphillip]
15:17:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:18:35 [aphillip]
15:19:17 [aphillip]
1. Section 2.5.1. Where it says: -- When a user agent is to strip line breaks from a string, the user agent must remove any U+000A LINE FEED (LF) and U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN (CR) characters from that string. -- Should other line-terminators also be included here?
15:20:07 [aphillip]
15:21:28 [aphillip]
... such as line separator
15:21:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:24:14 [Zakim]
15:24:19 [aharon]
aharon has joined #i18n
15:24:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:26:36 [aphillip]
15:26:51 [aphillip]
ISSUE-35 (New attribute: ubi)<> I had left open only because I was not 100% sure that it was a good idea that the <output> element was also defined to have isolation by default. But I never did make up my mind that it was a bad idea, so I have no intention to make a Last Call about it. Just forget about this.
15:27:29 [aphillip]
aharon: need for bidi isolatoin. fixed by <bdi>
15:27:53 [aphillip]
... did not close this bug because html5 made one of the new elements (output) isolated by default
15:28:03 [aphillip]
... not sure if that's the right choice
15:28:34 [aphillip]
richard: looked at a couple of days ago and not sure if it still says that
15:28:41 [aphillip]
aharon: it's the default stylesheet
15:28:46 [aphillip]
... that would say that
15:28:52 [aphillip]
... not the spec itself so much
15:29:31 [r12a]
10.3.5 Bidirectional text
15:29:52 [r12a]
bdi, output, [dir=auto] { unicode-bidi: isolate; } /* case-insensitive */
15:31:56 [aphillip]
okay to close
15:32:04 [aphillip]
ISSUE-36 (New dir attribute value: auto, and a new attribute: autodirmethod)<> Both and were fixed and are closed. The issue should be closed.
15:32:04 [kojiishi]
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15:32:27 [aphillip]
ISSUE-43 (Block-display elements should act as UBA paragraph breaks)<>* is important and is still awaiting action by the editor.*
15:33:01 [aphillip]
aharon: issue is now wider
15:33:04 [aphillip]
bug is 11829
15:33:31 [aphillip]
aharon: default stylesheet is non-normative and not very descriptive
15:33:39 [aphillip]
... and doesn't tell you what is supposed to be happening
15:33:45 [aphillip]
... in words
15:33:55 [aphillip]
... and HTML5 doesn't described
15:34:12 [aphillip]
s/described/describe Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm/
15:34:16 [aphillip]
... how to apply it
15:34:19 [aphillip]
... etc.
15:34:30 [aphillip]
aharon: CSS spec (writing-mode)
15:34:35 [aphillip]
... does describe this
15:34:41 [Zakim]
15:34:52 [kojiishi]
zakim, ??p1 is me
15:34:52 [Zakim]
+kojiishi; got it
15:34:59 [aphillip]
... and default stylesheets invoke this
15:35:41 [aphillip]
aharon: so default stylesheet does define how UBA works in a non-normative and non-declarative way
15:35:51 [aphillip]
... so can't tell what the behaviors should be
15:36:06 [aphillip]
... and this was accepted by editor
15:36:23 [aphillip]
... but not present in document
15:36:42 [aphillip]
... I did provide what the text might be
15:36:48 [aphillip]
... and pinged
15:38:37 [aphillip]
addison: html5 is kind of hand-wavy about bidi
15:38:53 [aphillip]
... also, there is a reason not to have stylesheet be normative
15:40:11 [aphillip]
addison: should have a hard reference in html5
15:40:21 [aphillip]
richard: could have two stylesheets: one normative and one informative
15:41:07 [aphillip]
aharon: add section that says how bidi works in absense of css
15:41:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:41:35 [aphillip]
aharon: definition in one place
15:42:44 [aphillip]
... comment 8 in:
15:42:52 [aharon]
15:43:29 [r12a]
see the 4 paras after "By this role, I mean:"
15:47:23 [aphillip]
richard: perhaps have a new comment
15:49:44 [Zakim]
15:50:30 [r12a]
zakim, who's here ?
15:50:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see matial, Richard, tomayac, kojiishi
15:50:31 [Zakim]
On IRC I see kojiishi, aharon, matial, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, trackbot
15:51:15 [r12a]
aharon, are you there ?
15:51:19 [r12a]
we can't hear you
15:53:13 [Zakim]
+ +972.2.993.aaaa
15:53:27 [r12a]
zakim, who's here ?
15:53:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see matial, Richard, tomayac, kojiishi, +972.2.993.aaaa
15:53:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see kojiishi, matial, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, trackbot
15:53:46 [r12a]
zakim, kill tomayac
15:53:46 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'kill tomayac', r12a
15:53:55 [r12a]
zakim, drop tomayac
15:53:55 [Zakim]
tomayac is being disconnected
15:53:57 [Zakim]
15:54:34 [r12a]
Issue 49
15:54:40 [r12a]
15:54:47 [r12a]
shouldn't have been filed, and works out ok
15:54:52 [r12a]
let's just closed
15:54:57 [r12a]
close it
15:55:27 [r12a]
Issue 52
15:55:29 [r12a]
15:55:40 [r12a]
situation is changing right now
15:55:49 [r12a]
since email sent
15:56:02 [r12a]
by default lists in html5 behave without interop between browsers
15:56:16 [r12a]
some list items are in one direction, others in another direction
15:56:23 [r12a]
at heart its a css issue
15:57:06 [r12a]
this year the css3 lists module was worked on in earnest - the way it is being addressed is far from settled - keeps changing names and approaches
15:57:29 [r12a]
in the end it should be fine on the css side, but css3 tries to be very backwards compatible
15:57:54 [r12a]
it's not clear yet whether they will decide to make the css default to be the current browser behaviour or the new behaviour
15:58:09 [r12a]
not that they like the old behaviour, it's a question of interoperability
15:58:47 [r12a]
what they want to happen if for the html5 spec to say the real desireable default in hte default stylesheet
15:59:19 [r12a]
unfortunately they still haven't decided on the syntax or whether it will be necessary to say it in the stylesheet
15:59:25 [r12a]
so it's not clear how to proceed
15:59:45 [r12a]
the editor is constantly modifying the proposal, never mind finish review
16:00:21 [r12a]
hope is to convince them to commit to new behaviour for default
16:00:35 [r12a]
aharon will be busy lobyying for that over coming days
16:00:39 [r12a]
16:00:54 [r12a]
default text-align is start
16:01:46 [r12a]
aharon suggested that the html5 default stylesheet should say that the default text align for li should be match-parent (already defined) - leads to uniform alignment
16:02:17 [r12a]
dependent othe the soutions proposed this is either something absolutely necessary or just ok
16:02:29 [r12a]
hopefully it will work out that its not important
16:02:40 [r12a]
so not clear whether to ask that of the html5 editor yet
16:04:38 [r12a]
so, depending on particulars of work on css lists may need some defaults set, but its not yet clear what
16:04:54 [r12a]
richard: so if all becomes clear before end of LC, we should push for that
16:05:36 [r12a]
otherwise we should lodge a flag that this is an issue still being worked on and that the spec should take into account the results of the discussion when they become available
16:06:20 [r12a]
s/issue 52/issue 53/
16:06:32 [r12a]
issue 52
16:06:42 [r12a]
16:06:53 [r12a]
mostly fixed - need to just expand on a small comment
16:07:12 [r12a]
if it doesn't happen it's not the end of the world 0- its non-normative
16:12:19 [r12a]
16:13:55 [Zakim]
- +972.2.993.aaaa
16:13:57 [Zakim]
16:13:58 [Zakim]
16:14:00 [Zakim]
16:14:01 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended
16:14:02 [Zakim]
Attendees were matial, Addison_Phillips, Richard, tomayac, kojiishi, +972.2.993.aaaa
16:14:12 [r12a]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:14:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate r12a
16:14:37 [r12a]
action: richard to figure out how to keep alive open bugs for the html5 LC
16:14:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-59 - Figure out how to keep alive open bugs for the html5 LC [on Richard Ishida - due 2011-07-27].
16:14:42 [r12a]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:14:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate r12a
16:19:55 [r12a]
rssagent, make logs public
18:16:35 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #i18n